Jessica Chan, welcome to the IndieHackers podcast.
Yeah, thanks for having me on.
Thanks for coming on.
You are the founder of CoderCoder, a website where you help others acquire the skills they need to build their very first website.
Tell us a little bit about what you do and how it all works.
I have a lot of different tutorials and other articles, and then I have social media presence on Instagram mainly,
and then now Twitter and YouTube, which I'm sort of just starting to grow those.
Yeah, you are at 30,000 followers on Instagram.
You have 1,000 subscribers to your YouTube channel, and your IndieHackers product page says that you get
between 50 and 60,000 page views every month to your blog.
Not very many people talk about growing their Instagram or growing their YouTube subscribers on IndieHackers.
Most people are relying on Hacker News, and they're relying on Twitter followers and things like that.
So I'm curious how you got started here. Which of these channels came first for you?
Yeah, I started the blog first. That's my main sort of home base, like I could say.
And then after that, for some reason, I just decided to go on Instagram,
which is a really vibrant dev community there.
And so that's been just a really fun experience.
And I feel like I get to connect with other developers all around the world, which has been really great.
Yeah, Instagram is kind of a crazy channel because I'm not a huge Instagram user myself.
I'm kind of on there every now and then posting to my story like once every quarter or something like that.
We're good at growing it and finding the developers and finding the engineers on Instagram.
So we're going to get into your tactics and tricks there, but let's go to the beginning since you started with the blog.
How did you come up with the idea for CoderCoder and what made you start a blog?
I had come into web development in a pretty non-traditional, very roundabout way.
I got a degree in photography, never took a programming course in school,
and I landed this temp job for data entry formally, but then they ended up teaching me programming
because they were like a small web dev shop.
And after two years, I just had some basic SQL back end and then some front end, a little bit of CSS,
which I had sort of taught myself in high school.
But basically, after that, I was able to land sort of a real official web developer job at an ad agency.
I think maybe a year or two ago, I'd wanted to start CoderCoder because I felt like learning how to code really transformed my life
because before then, I was working all these temp office jobs and I just didn't know what I wanted to do with my life.
I wasn't making very much money working hourly, but after having found this career, it's been really satisfying.
It's provided a stable income for me and it seems like that's something that I really would love to help other people find as well
because I think in this day and age, a lot of people are trying to get into coding to work remotely
to have more autonomy over their lives and have a better income.
Yeah, those are all great reasons to learn how to code.
Coincidentally, they kind of mirror the reasons why people become indie hackers.
They want more autonomy. They want to work on their own creative projects.
They want to work from whatever location is comfortable.
They want to set their own schedule, and they want to make more money.
Coding allowed you to do all those things. It changed your life.
So you decided you wanted to change other people's lives as well. What was your game plan for that exactly?
Yeah, the idea that when I sort of had this idea to start Coder Coder,
it came about when I was actually on a trans-specific flight to Japan to visit a friend.
One of my reading books for the flight was The $100 Startup by Chris Skillebo.
I read that. I don't remember exactly what it said, but at some point, he was kind of asking the readers,
what is it that you're passionate about and what sort of changed your life that you could help other people do yourself?
I realized that this whole coding thing really changed my life,
and it could be something that I could help others do.
I guess I'd always had a little bit of an entrepreneurial spirit, like even growing up,
so I think I'd always wanted to, at some point, work for myself.
Cool. I love this advice that you got from Chris's book,
to think about something that you're passionate about that helped change your life for the better,
and then build a business that helps other people change their lives in the same way.
I think it's really good advice because it helps you avoid a couple of early-stage founder pitfalls.
Number one, if you follow that advice, you're not going to build something that you don't care about.
Number two, you're less likely to build something that's not important.
If it's something that literally is so impactful that it changed your life,
then it's pretty likely that other people will find it pretty important.
They'll be more likely to pay for it or share it with their friends.
Beyond that, I think he's really telling you to build a business that teaches people,
and you need to help educate people.
When you do that, you can really get started immediately.
I love education businesses because you don't have to build a bunch of software.
You don't have to spend months coding stuff.
You could just literally start tweeting things.
You could start, in your case, posting on Instagram.
You can start a blog, and you're already off to the races helping people.
Your business doesn't really take that much time to get started, which is such a huge advantage.
You started with a blog.
Tell me a little bit about your early blog posts for Code of Coder.
What do those look like?
Yeah, gosh, I think the first blog post I wrote was how to speed up your WordPress website
with 90 different ways or some crazy number.
It's probably like 30.
I had also done a lot of reading on how to make a blog and how to write a good blog post
and things like that.
That was one of the just making a giant listicle.
I think it's called Skyscraper Post, so things like that.
I think that, over time, I actually learned a lot by just trying to find places
where my audience hangs out on the internet.
At the beginning, it was like these Facebook groups.
I think there's a free code camp one as well as another one called Newbie Coder Warehouse.
I just kind of hang out there, see what kind of questions people are asking
and what things they're having trouble with, try to help them out.
Then I would also write articles on those topics, post them to the groups.
That was one of the early ways that I was getting traffic to my website.
I have a Facebook page, but I don't really do very much to it anymore.
I'm not really actively trying to grow it, but it's just trying to find these problems
that your audience has and then just fixing it for them.
I think that's kind of the basis of what good sales is.
How do you decide which problems to focus on?
Especially in your situation, teaching people how to code,
they have a million different problems.
There's a million different blog posts that you can write.
There's all sorts of languages and frameworks that you can teach.
How did you hone in on one particular problem?
I think from the very beginning, I wanted to focus on very beginners,
so people who maybe haven't coded before just know a little bit.
Then I also wanted to focus on just front-end, HTML, CSS right now,
also responsive design because I feel like everyone who's learning how to code
has to learn those things.
Whereas if you focus on something specific like, I don't know,
learning Java or learning Node.js,
then you're kind of niching down a little bit more,
so there's less of a target audience.
Also, I think I'm more confident in my skills for the beginner HTML, CSS stuff.
That's the downside of starting an educational business.
You might start to wonder, am I good enough to be teaching this stuff?
Should people be listening to me?
But the flip side is that you're under constant pressure to learn
and actually be good, so you end up learning a lot faster.
At what point did you have your first breakthrough with CoderCoder,
and did you realize that people were listening to the stuff
you're putting out there, they were reading your blog posts,
and your traffic was growing?
Yeah, so I think in the early stages of this,
I had been posting on Medium, and that really helped grow my traffic
because there's a free code camp.
They have free code camp news on their own site now,
but they used to be on Medium, and they were a huge publication there.
So I started submitting articles to them, and some of them really took off.
One article I wrote was,
a very commonly good web developer,
and that was kind of a sort of soft skills,
how to solve problems, how to work with a team, that kind of thing.
And that article, maybe semi-viral, was fairly popular.
And it actually got picked up by some other online publications,
like The Next Web was one of them.
And so they were posting with the canonical link linking back to my domain.
So that really helped, I think, my domain grow in domain authority
and kind of get a bit higher on the Google search results and stuff like that.
About how many blog posts would you say that you've written in total?
Surprisingly, not that many.
I think I have just under 30 blog posts
in the two years that I've had this website.
So it's a little surprising that I've been able to grow this much.
Yeah, that's a lot of traffic from just 30 blog posts.
What about Instagram posts? How many of those?
Oh, geez. I probably have at least 300 to 400 Instagram posts.
That's where you spend a lot of time on Instagram.
Yeah.
That's true.
But actually the majority of my traffic, like 80 to 90%, comes from Google search.
Yeah, that makes perfect sense.
I'm curious, the reason I ask is because when you write dozens of blog posts,
when you make hundreds of posts to Instagram,
you start to see certain patterns.
You start to catch on to what makes things work, what makes things not work.
You start to change up your writing style as a result.
So I'm sure, for example,
the way that you write blog posts today has evolved considerably
from how you were writing blog posts two years ago.
What are some of the things you've learned in that time?
Yeah, right now I'm really aiming for writing blog posts that do well in search.
So things that I believe people are searching for.
I think in the beginning I was kind of sort of doing that,
but also just writing these more soft skills posts.
And I might do that more again,
but right now I'm focusing on writing blog posts
that people are posting on Stack Overflow.
Like, this thing isn't working.
So for example, a recent post I have is
four reasons why your Z-index isn't working and how to fix it.
Because it's like a question on Stack Overflow.
So I'm actually ranked, I just checked yesterday,
I'm ranked number one on Google search for that phrase,
which I think is fairly common.
So that's where I'm targeting right now.
Yeah, Google search is so much traffic if you can nail it.
But it's also a huge slog, also kind of a pain in the ass,
because there's a lot of competition,
you've got to do a lot of keyword research, etc.
Let's talk about Instagram.
How do you grow an Instagram account?
Yeah, it's a big question I think a lot of people know.
And yeah, it was kind of interesting to see that I was getting,
I guess, attention on indie hackers for that.
Because to me it's like, oh, this is just my everyday,
it's not like a huge deal to me anymore.
It's a huge deal to me, I'm like,
how do you grow on Instagram in history?
There's no retweet button, how do you get followers?
Yeah, I think the way I see Instagram
is that it is very relational.
Yeah, like you said, there's no retweet button.
You can share stuff, but it's a bit different.
And it's honestly a grind, like you have to be consistent.
But I think what happened for me was,
I think a year into Instagram,
I had maybe like a thousand something followers,
but I really want to hit that 10,000 mark,
because that's when people sort of see you as a,
quote unquote, influencer.
You can share links on your stories, which is nice.
So I did this experiment where I posted on Instagram
pretty much every single day for however long.
And I ended up hitting 10,000 just four months later.
So it was from July to November of last year.
And so that really helped.
So I think consistency is really important.
Also, you have to kind of understand your target audience.
And so I tried to post content that,
I think it's been said like people go online
to either be entertained or educated.
And so I'm sort of the more educational direction.
So I try to post posts that are like helpful
to people in my target audience,
which is beginner web developers, just like sharing skills.
And I think I kind of stuck out early on
because most of the dev community on Instagram,
they're either posting like setup shots to their computers
or they're like trying to be Instagram model slash coders.
It's kind of an interesting like little genre niche
that I sort of don't do myself.
And so I think having these really informative posts,
and there's a couple other accounts do the same thing.
It makes us stick out, it makes us be very attractive
to people who are on Instagram looking for stuff.
Yeah, I'm looking at your posts right now.
And it's a lot of shots of keyboards,
a lot of pictures of computers.
A lot of pictures of books too, actually.
It's almost like you're doing recommendations
of what books people should be reading,
what tools they should be using and stuff like that.
Yeah, book recommendations seem to do well.
So I like sharing about those too.
Yeah, book recommendations seem to work well on Twitter too.
And you mentioned consistency, that's a big thing
for podcast growth, I found.
It's just like if I release an episode every single week,
the podcast grows.
If I miss a week, it's like reset, you know,
I've got to make up for that after another few weeks.
So it's interesting to see that Instagram works
kind of the same way.
Yeah, there's definitely an algorithm thing
where I don't have evidence, but I believe that Instagram
will rank you higher in people's feeds
if you post consistently.
Yeah, I bet.
So I think it's you hooked.
You got to post every single day.
So you've got all this stuff, you've got your Instagram account,
you've got your YouTube channel, you've got your blog.
What's the goal here?
Do these all combine to sort of feed into some greater vision?
Yeah, eventually, yes.
I don't have anything yet, but I'm actually in the middle
of trying to work on this, like a video course,
probably on Teachable or some platform like that
where it'll be aimed at beginners again
for responsive design.
And so that's kind of a goal, I guess,
to try to monetize Coder Coder.
And the idea is that everything else that I'm doing,
blog posts, social media, we'll sort of point to that.
Cool.
I talk to a lot of founders who are releasing products
and they have a giant mailing list
and they have thousands of Twitter followers
and they have all sorts of people who are just ready to buy
whatever they build.
And they always say the same thing.
You've got to start by building your audience.
And that's where you are.
You're in the build my audience phase of your business
where you're getting a reputation for yourself,
where you're helping people out,
where you're building your mailing list,
where you're gaining that large amount of people who say,
Jessica, help me in the past.
And so when you release your course,
you're not just starting from scratch.
You've got people who are ready to buy
because they trust you.
Yeah, exactly.
So I know you already make a little bit of money from Coder Coder,
something like $200 a month.
Where does that come from?
Yeah, it's mostly coming from affiliate links on my blog.
So for example, I have, you know,
a couple posts, you know,
best books to learn web development,
best courses to learn web development.
And they're all links to affiliates,
either Amazon or individual course creators.
So that's where that's coming from.
Do you think that once you release your course,
you're going to get rid of the affiliate links?
Or do you think you'll keep them
and just run them as an alternative business model on the side?
Yeah, I think I'm still trying to decide
what my sort of final approach is going to be.
I'm okay doing like occasional affiliate links.
I don't want to like start pushing it out
every single post or email that I send out.
But I think the course is ideally going to be
where the bulk of like the income is going to come from.
And I'm actually considering like not doing ads on YouTube
because I think that's the way that I can stand out again
from like the other sort of web developers on there
because like literally everyone just like slaps on AdSense.
It'll be interesting to see how that turns out.
Yeah, that's kind of cool
because if you release your course and it does well,
then you'll probably be making more money from that
than you'd make from your YouTube ads anyway.
And so then it's not that big of a sacrifice
to shut off the ads and do what you said.
You kind of stand out from the competition
because everybody else has ads on their educational videos.
So let's talk about YouTube.
How do you grow a YouTube channel from nothing
to over a thousand subscribers?
Yeah, I guess I don't think a thousand is that much
because, you know, again, I have this goal in mind of like,
you know, like the head 100K,
maybe even a million followers someday.
But again, it's just it's really just about consistency.
What I've been doing specifically on YouTube lately
is doing these live coding streams about every week.
And I will literally just build a website from scratch
using a template from Frontline Mentor.
I think it's another indie hacker.
And people can watch me code, they can ask me questions,
and I'll answer them.
So I think it's kind of a pretty high quality thing
that I haven't seen too many other YouTubers doing
because most of them seem to be more like career advice
and getting a job like that kind of video.
Yeah, it's cool to see how you're active
on these different platforms.
So on your blog, it's SEO focused coding articles.
And then on Instagram, it's more conversational questions
and tips and photos.
And then on YouTube, you're doing live coding.
And so if somebody just likes what you're putting out
and they want to engage with you,
if they want more Jessica Chan,
they can actually watch you code live and chat with you.
Yeah, exactly.
And like I do, I do plan on doing a lot more growth
on YouTube in the coming year,
because I was not just live stream,
but also like sort of created edited videos
because I have to be married to a very talented video editor
and animator.
And so, yeah, we're planning on working together
on just making some really high quality videos
that I wouldn't otherwise be able to afford
like to pay someone to make.
Yeah, it's one of the challenges of YouTube
is videos hard to make them good.
It takes a lot of work.
It's like way harder than audio,
obviously way harder than just text.
But if you've got a husband in the picture,
some free labor, go for it.
Exactly.
Let's talk about how you're supporting yourself
during all this
because you haven't released your course yet.
You are a freelance web developer.
Being a freelancer is not that easy.
It's arguably just as hard as learning how to code,
figuring out how to get a steady stream of contracts coming in
so you can support yourself.
How have you done that?
Yeah, I guess I kind of lucked out in that area
because right now I'm working almost full-time hours
for a client who is a former coworker
who used to work at the agency with me.
And I just ended up being kind of the last person
from my sort of generation there to leave.
So pretty much the second that I posted on social media
that I was going to do freelance,
I got requests from multiple coworkers
asking if I was looking for work.
And so this one's worked out really well.
So I have a very stable financial situation,
which I'm really fortunate to have
because then I'm not trying to make money.
I might be more tempted to put ads and stuff on everything,
but I can kind of go about things
in a good sort of consistent, slow progress.
Yeah, I talked to Stephanie Horbert
I think a year and a half ago
about how she was getting freelance developer work
early on in her career.
And she did kind of the same thing.
She just told everybody that she knew that she was open for work.
She posted on social media and then there are inbound requests
because who knew people would need to hire developers.
How do you balance working your freelance,
almost full-time hours gig with building CoderCoder
and doing all these things on YouTube and your blog and Instagram?
Yeah, I will say I probably don't have
the most vibrant social life at all.
I work from home.
My husband works from home.
We're very much homebodies.
So I pretty much spend my evenings and weekends
working on CoderCoder content
and just throughout the day on Instagram and stuff.
Yeah, I've been in that situation as well
working with your significant other,
both working from home.
Not easy to do.
They drive each other crazy.
But it seems to be working out well for you.
Yeah, yeah.
Tell me about your future plans.
You're working on this course.
Do you have anything else in mind for CoderCoder?
Honestly, that's kind of my simple business model, if you will.
I would love to be able to create a suite of courses for beginners.
Right now, I'm just going to be probably charging per course,
just pay one off.
But maybe if I have a whole bunch down the line in a few years
and I can do a monthly subscription plan.
So something like that.
So we talked briefly about your very first upcoming course.
Tell me a little bit more about what it's going to be.
Yeah, it's called something like the beginner's guide
to responsive design or responsive web design for beginners.
And it's just me taking people step-by-step
through setting up everything and building a responsive website.
So this is definitely a more narrow, specific topic
than all the different things you write about on your blog,
Instagram, and your YouTube channel.
How much did writing in those places and engaging with your audience
sort of feed into your decision for what this first course would be about?
Yeah, I chose that, I think, because it was like the intersection
of where I feel most confident in my own skills
and then what I see my audience sort of looking for.
Because I think that one sort of pain point that I've noticed
with other existing courses is that people often say,
oh, you're going too fast, like the teacher doesn't explain things all the way.
So I felt like having a course aimed at beginners that really goes step-by-step,
maybe too much, we'll see, it would be helpful to people.
Yeah, this makes me want to go back to what I was talking about earlier
and add to the reasons why it's so good to start an educational business.
And in this case, it's because no matter how much competition there is,
no matter how many other people are teaching people how to code,
you're always going to be able to find your own unique style of teaching.
And it's always going to resonate with some percentage of students
the way that nobody else is teaching does.
You're going to be teaching things slower and breaking it down.
But there's always room. It doesn't matter how much competition there is.
If you're teaching, you can teach in your own unique style
and there's room for you.
Let's zoom out here and talk about learning to code in general.
A lot of people want to be indie hackers.
A lot of people want to start their own companies,
but they don't know how to code.
In your opinion, should people in this situation learn how to code
before starting a business,
or should they partner up with somebody else who knows how to code?
I think it's one of those questions that the answer is it depends.
I think anyone can learn how to code,
but I don't know if everyone would enjoy coding.
Not everyone just enjoys the sometimes masochistic nature
of debugging and things like that.
I think it depends on the person.
I do think sometimes that if it's not in your skill set,
it might be more efficient for you to pay money to a professional to do it.
But that also depends on if you have the capital to that.
Yeah, it's all interconnected.
It's interesting because I've taught a few people how to code.
I don't know, I guess maybe I'm just not a good judge of character,
but I've never been able to predict who's going to like it
and who's not going to like it.
The people who I thought would not like it ended up loving it
and the people who I thought it would be a perfect fit for them
ended up not liking it.
If you're listening to this and you think you might not like it,
I would say give it a try because it's really hard to guess.
Also, in my experience, I don't know if this is true for you,
but learning is a lot more frustrating than doing.
When you are trying to debug when you're learning,
it's like I have no idea how to fix this bug.
I'm googling everywhere. It's so frustrating.
But once you get kind of good, it's just like you can bring your ideas to life
and it's debugging even becomes kind of fun.
It's kind of like you're just in flow and you know exactly what to do.
Yeah, I think it's really hard when you don't know what you don't know
and you don't know how to figure it out.
That's extremely frustrating.
But if you can fight through that,
it's a point where it's more comfortable and less unfamiliar.
Yeah, that's a good way to put it.
You don't know what you don't know.
It's all question marks everywhere.
How should somebody go about learning how to code?
Obviously, they can check out Code Recoder
and go to your Instagram and your website,
but is there a sort of golden path, a place they should start,
and any resources that you would recommend?
Yeah.
It does depend on what their end goal is.
If it's to make their own app or whatever mobile app,
then obviously you'd want to learn mobile development.
Like, I don't know, make your own sort of web app,
then I think you need to just learn the basics of web development
and then learn programming language, whichever stack you choose.
I don't think there's one better than any other.
I think PHP is a viable option for someone who wants to learn PHP.
But I think in terms of resources,
I usually recommend a free code camp.
They're a free online boot camp.
They're non-profit, and you can learn the whole stack
with the React and Node as your sort of back end.
I think I also recommend, for web development at least,
there's some books by John Duckett on HTML and CSS
and then jQuery and JavaScript,
and that seems to be really popular as well.
They're just really nicely designed books.
I will second the recommendation for free code camp.
I had Quincy Larson, the creator of free code camp
on the podcast last year as well.
Awesome.
Check that episode out if you're listening.
It's a pretty cool resource.
They still publish just a ton of content about learning how to code.
Do you still send them articles?
Yes.
I haven't done so for a few months,
but I'm currently working on kind of my rewritten version
of the Absolute Beginners Guide to Web Development,
which I had on their site before.
So this will be sort of a new version, a little, yeah, just better, I think.
Yeah.
They're just such a huge distribution channel
because they have so many followers, so many subscribers,
and if you're trying to put out content,
it makes no sense not to submit something to them
every now and then at least sort of build your own following.
You mentioned something in that vein earlier
where you're just trying to look for these places
where potential readers of yours might hang out,
so Facebook groups, free code camp.
What else did you find on your search?
What are some things that perhaps didn't work out?
Something that didn't work out.
Well, there's always a lot of trial and error
that goes into building anything, as I'm sure you know.
For me, it did happen in Instagram
where I'd gotten into a little bit of a rut
because I was not happy with the content
that I'd been making at that time,
and I had to sort of step back and rethink things.
And this had happened because I'd seen
that photos of computer setups get a lot of likes,
so I'd started just really mashing that A button
and doing a lot of those.
And the photos did get likes,
but I felt over time that both I and my audience
started getting kind of tired of those types of pictures
because there's only so many different ways
that you can take a picture of your computer, right?
And I realized that I'd kind of gotten caught up
in chasing likes and internet points,
and I felt that I had honestly gotten a little bit off track
in terms of reaching the people
that I originally wanted to reach in to help.
So after thinking about it, I realized that, you know,
if my goal is to eventually create courses
for beginner web developers,
I really need to make all my other content,
even on social, related to that.
It's kind of like my top of funnel content.
So I switched gears a bit,
and although I do still post some photos
of my computer setup sometimes,
I also spend quite a bit of time
creating and designing these mini tutorials
and posting them as gallery posts and Instagram,
where you can like slide and read multiple pages.
And those have done really well,
and not only in getting like good engagement,
you know, I'm getting likes and comments
and even having discussions with people,
but I also just feel more proud of that kind of content
because I feel like it's actually creating value for people.
Yeah, that's one thing I didn't work out exactly
as I had planned.
It had forced me to sort of rethink my approach
and, you know, just try to make it better.
Well, cool, that's a good cautionary tale,
and also a lesson of how you turn things around.
I think that's a good place to end the episode.
Thanks so much, Jessica, for coming on the show.
I wish you the best of luck with your course.
You'll have to post it on any hackers
once you're done with it,
and those of us still struggling with responsive design
will have to take a look.
Can you tell listeners that you can go to learn more
about what you're up to with Coder Coder?
I'll post it up on social, you know, on Twitter.
If you want to follow me on probably Instagram also and YouTube.
I'll definitely post up on those places.
I do have an email list,
and so I'll announce it there as well.
Cool. Thanks so much, Jessica.
Thanks for having me, Cortland.
Quick note for listeners.
If you're interested in coming onto the podcast,
like Jessica, to have a quick chat with me,
go to indiehackers.com slash milestones
and post a milestone about what you're working on.
It can be pretty much anything.
People have posted milestones about launching
or finding the first customer.
They posted about growing their mailing list
or hitting 1,000 followers on Twitter.
They posted about getting to $100 or $1,000
or $100,000 a month in revenue.
The sky is the limit.
So whatever you're proud of,
come celebrate it on indiehackers.com slash milestones
and other indie hackers will help you celebrate.
We love supporting each other.
We love encouraging each other when we hit these milestones.
And what I will do is at the end of every week,
I'll look at the top milestones posted
and I'll reach out to a few people to invite them
to come onto the podcast for a quick chat.
So once again, that's indiehackers.com slash milestones.
I'm looking forward to seeing you there.
If you enjoyed listening to this conversation
and you want a really easy way to support the podcast,
why don't you head over to iTunes
and leave us a quick rating or even a review.
If you're looking for an easy way to get there,
just go to indiehackers.com slash review
and that should open up iTunes on your computer.
I read pretty much all the reviews
that you guys leave over there
and it really helps other people to discover the show
so your support is very much appreciated.
In addition, if you are running your own internet business
or if that's something you hope to do someday,
you should join me and a whole bunch of other founders
on the indiehackers.com website.
It's a great place to get feedback on pretty much any problem
or question that you might have while running your business.
If you listen to the show, you know that I am a huge proponent
of getting help from other founders
rather than trying to build your business all by yourself.
So you'll see me on the forum for sure
as well as more than a handful of some of the guests
that I've had on the podcast.
If you're looking for inspiration,
we've also got a huge directory full of hundreds of products
built by other indie hackers,
every one of which includes revenue numbers
and some of the behind-the-scenes strategies
for how they grew their products from nothing.
As always, thanks so much for listening
and I'll see you next time.