What's up, everybody?
This is Cortland from IndieHackers.com, and you're listening to the IndieHackers podcast.
On this show, I talk to the founders of profitable internet businesses, and I try to get a sense
of what it's like to be in their shoes.
How did they get to where they are today?
How did they make decisions, both at their companies and in their personal lives?
And what exactly makes their businesses tick?
And the goal here, as always, is so that the rest of us can learn from their examples and
go on to build our own profitable internet businesses.
If you've been enjoying the show and you want an easy way to support me, you should leave
a review on iTunes or Apple Podcasts.
Probably the easiest way to do that if you're on a Mac is just visit IndieHackers.com slash
review, and that will open up Apple Podcasts on your computer.
I really appreciate it.
It's the best way for other people to find the show, so I read all the reviews that you
guys leave over there.
In today's episode, I sat down with PokerPro Jonathan Little.
He has won millions of dollars as a professional poker player, and now he's making millions
of dollars a year with his online business teaching others how to get better at the game
as well.
What's really cool about Jonathan is that even though he doesn't come from a tech background,
he's been able to figure out a lot of the IndieHacker challenges on his own.
He's got a web-based subscription business up and running.
He is on every channel.
He's crushing it with distribution.
He's figured out his pricing.
And I think even if you're not as much of a poker fan as I am, there's a lot to learn
here from Jonathan's work ethic, his consistency, and about how you can go on to build your
own sustainable business doing what you love that supports your lifestyle.
Enjoy the episode.
Jonathan Little, welcome to the IndieHackers podcast.
Hello, thanks for having me.
I'm happy to be here today.
You've built a poker media empire.
You've got online classes, a website, YouTube, how would you describe what you do and what
are all the parts to it?
There's a lot of parts to it.
So it all started a long time ago, about 15 years ago, I just was playing a lot of poker
and posting on poker forums, and I learned a lot from other people who discussed poker
strategy on these forums.
And eventually I became a good, well-respected player on there.
So I started giving other people advice.
And then me and a few of my friends decided, why don't we make a poker training site?
We weren't necessarily trying to make money from it or anything, but we wanted to get
back to the community and maybe build something.
Well, that's how it started.
So we have a poker training site that has been through many iterations.
Now it's called pokercoaching.com.
I also write books, I have all these books back here, I'm in charge of all those.
I work with a publishing company, D&B Poker.
I'm in charge of sourcing some of the material that they have, and I do a lot of the editing.
So we do that.
We have a YouTube channel, about 50,000 followers on there.
After this we'll have 100,000 hopefully.
We'll see.
And I make a lot of content.
I have video blogs, the training site has quizzes, interactive webinars, I do a morning
show called A Little Coffee, where Monday, Wednesday, Friday, I sit down for about an
hour and talk about whatever's on my mind.
Usually it's somehow related to poker.
And I try to put out lots of content.
I want to be everywhere so people can find me and then inevitably I can help them and
then maybe they'll pay me some money.
Yeah.
It's pretty insane how much content you put out.
I mean, I talked to a lot of people who put out content for a living and most of them
aren't anywhere near that prolific.
I'm a member of your pokercoaching.com website, I'm getting emails from you constantly.
You're always popping up on YouTube.
You've got like several podcasts, all those books you've written.
How much time and effort does that take?
You know, are you doing nothing but putting out content all day, every day?
It does take a lot of effort.
And I think what I do that a lot of other people don't do is I actually sit down and
work.
I think a lot of content creators kind of hang out where they spend a lot of time on
things that are not necessarily beneficial when it comes to actually putting out a product
like for example, writing a book, I have a book called excelling at no limit hold them
that I wrote with roughly 15 other poker players.
Actually I was in charge, I assigned them topics where we came up with topics to write
about themselves and each author slash poker player was going to write about 20 pages on
their chosen topic, thought it'd be easy, I thought I'd be able to give them the assignment,
get it back in a month and the book would be done in like a month, that was me the easiest
thing I've ever did.
That ended up taking about a year and a half.
Some of the people involved were also authors, their work got back to me in a month, they
said they were gonna do it in a month, they got it back to me in a month, no problem.
Some of the poker players though were huge procrastinators or huge perfectionists.
And I would have to like go to their house and help them, which is fine, I get it.
And a lot of people really wanted everything to be 100% perfect and to be fair when you're
writing a book, you can't go back and change it and it's kind of memorialized there and
people will read that indefinitely.
So I get the idea that you want it to be perfect, but at the same time, at some point you just
have to ship the product and get it out there to the world.
And I've always been pretty quick to push stuff out, I'm not such a perfectionist, I
don't think.
I try to do things well the first time and that results in not having to do too many
takes.
That said, I am trying to slow down a bit, I'm in the process of making this gigantic
tournament course.
People have asked me to make this for forever, currently something like 40 hours long, so
it's a lot.
And I actually hired someone to teach me how to teach better and that's making my process
go substantially slower.
I would have had this thing done in well, I don't know, 50 hours or so, but takes 40
hours to record.
I'll be done in 50 hours, but now it's taking substantially longer and I think that's probably
good.
I think when you're putting out for like a pillar pieces of content that everyone's going
to get directed to, you want them to be as good as they possibly can.
So if anything, I have to slow myself down a little bit, but that's okay.
I don't mind.
Yeah, we were talking earlier about this balance between being a perfectionist and quantity.
And I always err on the side of perfectionism and I think it's a flaw.
I need to be more prolific, I need to just put things out there instead of sweating it
so much because sometimes that lasts like five or 10%.
No one notices, no one cares about and it's better just to get a ton of stuff out and
reach people everywhere they are.
I was gonna say like editing audio, for example, for this, you can sit here and edit this thing
for forever or you can just push it out.
Exactly.
As long as you know, it's fine.
There's nothing horribly wrong with it.
It's going to be good enough.
We both have decent microphones, we both sound fine.
So it's good enough.
Don't worry about it.
Also, I was going to say something I do very different a lot of people is I work, I sit
in my office right here from about 9am until 6pm Monday to Friday every day.
That's when my wife is working and I sit in here, like I have a real job and I work all
day.
I'm not watching TV or goofing off or anything like that, I'm working.
And I think what happens to a lot of people, especially content creators is they sort of
have freedom to do whatever they want.
Or they're doing it as a like a hobby to some extent, they're not doing it as a career.
And I recognize I'm doing this as a career and that requires me to treat it like a career.
Yeah, I think when a lot of people become founders become indie hackers, it's a tough
transition for them.
I mean, you've been a professional poker player, all of that self discipline, there's nobody
who's like, you need to come in at 9am every day and learn poker, Jonathan, you've got
to be self motivated.
But a lot of people who come from, you know, more of a traditional career are used to having
a boss or colleagues expect them to stick to a particular schedule.
And suddenly, when they're out on their own, and they're at home, it's really hard to stay
focused, it's really hard to stay on track without that external motivation.
What do you think your motivation comes from, Jonathan?
I really do not have a good answer to that.
I'm pretty good grinder.
So whenever I was a young person playing poker, when I was 18, 19, 20, 21 years old, I would
literally sit in my room for about 16 hours a day, either playing poker or studying poker,
it was 10 or so hours of playing and six hours of reviewing those hands and studying and
trying to get better.
And I did that every day for three years consistently.
And I didn't have any problem with that.
I had no social life.
I had no real friends besides my internet poker friends.
And I had a pile of money.
So I would recognize I was trading these things for something else and like now writing a
book or making a new class, if I want to be doing it, I can just sit down and do it no
problem.
And I like having a lot of things to do, because that allows me to sort of pick the thing that
I really want to do at that moment, I'm always motivated to do it because perhaps I haven't
done it a little while or it's somewhat pressing, I need to get it done immediately.
Also my life is kind of compartmentalized to some extent, because I still travel and
play poker a decent amount.
So I would typically play poker somewhere on the live tournament poker circuit.
There's a like a big tournament somewhere all the time, but usually there's one big
tournament per month.
And I would I will usually spend about a week per month going to do that.
And during that time, I'm usually recording a video blog, but that is it pertaining to
work.
I have a team that helps me with support emails and whatnot.
And I pre record everything I can ahead of time or I pre write articles such that I do
not have to do anything besides play poker when I'm going out to play poker.
So that's almost like a vacation to some extent, or just like a get away from the nine to five
grind if you want to call it that.
And that allows me to come back refreshed and then after a week of playing poker, I'm usually
ready to be done with that.
So I go home and get back on the work grind.
And after three weeks of the work grind, I'm ready to go play some poker.
So it works out pretty well.
There's some hidden wisdom there behind the fact that you don't really need any tricks
or hacks to do what you do.
Just naturally like grinding at certain things.
Well, I like doing what I'm doing, right?
I think a lot of people, especially people in the startup world start a business because
they want to make money or because they perhaps even see a hole in the market is very obvious
to them.
But they don't really care about it.
And I mean, I think if you care about something, you're going to be way more motivated to do
it than if you don't care so much about it.
Totally.
Fortunately, I like playing games.
I like poker.
And I like helping people get better at poker.
So just like I wake up and I want to get to work.
It's never I don't think I've had a day in a very long time where I wake up like, oh,
I have to go to work today.
Normally, I'm thrilled.
I want to do it.
And that makes it easy.
It's a trap a lot of people fall into where they're like, you know, I don't see everyone
else is working so hard.
I'm really grinding.
I'm really pushing myself.
I don't like this book.
I'm going to get that gold at the end of the rainbow.
And I don't realize like, you know, a lot of people are just doing things they like
where they naturally have a lot of energy and they wake up every day and it's not a
grind.
And almost everybody has something that's not a grind for them that they'll do all day obsessively
if they're allowed to.
And they can make money doing it.
And if you could find a way to start a business in that area, find a way to make money and
like create a life for yourself in that area.
It's probably where you have the biggest advantages rather than, you know, doing what you were
saying.
Finding a gap in the market and you know, ending up selling like wedding cards or something
where you really don't care about weddings.
For sure.
And I always liked playing games.
I mean, a good example of this is I would I played chess as a kid, I played Magic the
Gathering as a kid and I played poker once I turned 17, 18 years old.
And I pushed those other games aside to some extent because I realized this is poker as
a game where you can actually make substantial money.
So I have other things that I enjoy doing perhaps more than specifically playing poker,
but poker is good enough.
And you can also make a living from it.
So maybe you don't get to do the exact specific thing that you would like to do, like I could
sit and play Magic the Gathering all day, but you're not gonna make any money from it.
So you have to be realistic with the things that you decide to devote your time to because
some things are their hobbies, they're fun, right, they can be fun, but at the same time,
they're not actually going to give the opportunity to make substantial income if you care about
that. And you know, I knew I wanted to start a family one day and have some money.
So I had to play a game that gave me that opportunity that did not require any athletics
because I'm not a particularly athletic person.
And so poker was really the only option.
So that's kind of why we played this game.
So I would definitely tell you to find things that you like and do them and get good at
them, but at the same time, make sure they actually have a future.
So let's talk about your poker history, because I think it's kind of a cliche, at least in
the tech industry, that, you know, the founder drops out of college to pursue their passion
and start a startup.
And I've talked to half a dozen people on this podcast who've done that thing.
But you actually dropped out of college to play poker, not to start a startup.
What was it like to make that decision?
Well, it was easy.
So I was going to school to get an engineering degree, I had a I had an academic scholarship,
so like it was free to go to college.
But I was also working a job at an airport and a job at a comic book store at the same
time, and at this point, I was starting to make decent money from playing poker.
So I got to where I was making 200 or $300 per hour playing poker online when I was 18
years old, and I was working a $10 an hour job at the airport.
And I would purposefully work the graveyard shift, because I would go in, I would do the
routine work, and then not a whole lot of planes would come in, that you'd have to service
like, you know, give them gas or whatever they need.
Not a lot of planes came in late at night.
So I usually have like four or so hours where not a whole lot was going on.
And then I would download party poker on the computer and play poker during those four
hours.
And I was really good at one particular form of poker, that's a nine person tournament,
and you can't really leave until the tournament's over.
And every once in a while, like once a month, a helicopter would fly in late at night, they
would require you to give them gas.
And this is for like an ambulance helicopter.
So you really want to go service the ambulance helicopter, because they're going to go try
to save someone.
So two days in a row, I was playing for $200 buy in tournaments, and the helicopter came
in and I had to basically give away that $800 and go fuel the helicopter.
Oh, man.
So that happened twice in a row.
Like, okay, this is enough of this.
I can't be working this $10 an hour job and, you know, grinding high stakes poker at the
same time.
So that's when I quit that.
And then when I quit college, I went in for some class and they gave us a pop quiz.
And I got a zero.
So I caught up and I left.
And a lot of poker players have an issue telling their parents that they are going to drop
out of college to pursue poker.
And I'm sure the same thing with startups, right?
And I was very fortunate in that I was like definitively clear winner in the games I was
playing.
And I had very good records.
I had this notebook back then they don't know their programs to keep track of this.
But I had like a ledger that basically said how much I won or lost every day.
And I had something like a year or a year and a half worth of data that showed basically
every month I was making 20 or $30,000 kind of like clockwork.
And crazy.
And it was the prime time to play poker.
And if you see a lot of people in the poker world who are the best poker players in the
world, they're roughly my age, somewhere between like 32 and 38 years old.
And most of them started in college or perhaps in high school.
And that is when the game was amazingly popular.
And that had a big influx of bad players.
And we cleaned out the bad players.
And we also had a lot of time to devote to it, right?
This is why a lot of the older people did not quite get into it.
Because they were busy working a job or like living their life, whereas a kid in college
can kind of do whatever they want, right?
And then people younger than me, they were in high school all day, they didn't have time
to go play poker.
So I was sort of in the right place at the right time, kind of like if you look at a
lot of a lot of tech founders, right?
They grew up where a computer was located back in the day, there weren't very many computers.
And if you grew up near the computer, you are way more likely to become someone in tech.
So it was in the right place at the right time, to some extent, I totally forgot your
question of where we're going.
But that's that.
I mean, that's the luck component, I think, of success, right?
Where right place, right time, you can't really control where or when you're born.
But whenever you see somebody who has this outside success story, there's always some
component that's luck.
And a lot of time, it's just timing.
So you mentioned, you know, in the startup world, you have Bill Gates and Steve Jobs
who had access to computers at a time where very few other people did.
And a lot of people in this sort of age cohort built these massively successful and influential
tech businesses.
Poker, same thing, you were kind of in the right place at the right time.
And you ended up becoming a professional poker player, I think you've now cast something
like $7 million in tournament winnings.
And now you're teaching how does your tournament winnings as a professional poker player compare
to the money that you've won, you know, with your immediate empire and teaching others
how to play poker winning it if you get it through immediate empire, I'm not sure the
money that you've made.
Well, now I definitely rely more on the business because that is why I'm devoting my time to
turns out there's a lot of variance in poker, kind of like in startups, if you're investing
in startups, I've invested in something like 100 startups at this point.
And lots of them go broke, even if they are doing their absolute best, they're smart people
doing good work, right?
It's hard to make a successful business, right?
And poker tournaments are kind of like that, where 80 ish percent of the time, you're going
to lose even if you go in there and you play great.
So you have to have a very strong mindset, where you fly across the world and put down
a bunch of money and realize I'm going to lose this 80% of the time, I understand this
is going to happen.
And I'm not going to be unhappy if it does happen a little bit different than the startup
world, though, because you get to devote, you know, two or three days to your tournament,
whereas if you're starting a startup, you get to devote two or three years to it or
more before you figure out if it's going to work out or not.
So that's, I guess, fortunate for me.
But you realize that there is going to be a lot of variance in poker.
And to be fair, the last few years, I have not done particularly great in poker.
And I think it has to do with just running well at the wrong time.
So far, I think since I've been really focusing on the business where I'm only traveling like
one week a month, I think I've won about one tournament per year, which is actually pretty
good.
If you play 50 tournaments in a year, but have 500 people, you're supposed to win one
in 500, but I've won roughly one in 50, which is good.
The problem is that they are usually the smaller buy in games.
So whenever you're playing poker tournaments, you can buy in for all sorts of amounts I
usually buy in for between $1,000 or in $25,000.
So if you win the $1,000 tournaments, but lose the $25,000 tournaments, it's not going
to work out so well for you.
So that's been happening to me the last few years, I've had a bunch of almost deep runs
in the big ones, but not quite enough.
The way poker tournaments are structured, by the way, is the winner of the tournament
will get something like, let's say for simplicity, 25% of the money that was bought in.
So if 100 people put in $10,000 each, there's what, a million in the prize pool, which means
the winner will get about 250,000 give or take.
And then second place will get maybe 150, third will get maybe 100, fourth will get
75, but then ninth will get something like, I don't know, let's say 60.
So if you get ninth, you get 60,000, if you win, you get 250,000 or 300,000 or something
like that.
It's not spread in the difference between first and ninth, but really the person in
ninth place probably lost one or two more hands than the person in first place, right?
And if you just happened to get a bunch of ninth place in a row, you're going to have
a bad run, like you're just not going to win any money.
But if you win instead, you're just going to have all the money.
So there was one year, goodness, a long time ago, I just like want every hand towards the
end of the tournament and I want player of the year.
That's what that big glass trophy is back there.
And I ran hot and every year someone runs hot, kind of like in startups, every year
someone breaks out.
And I'm not going to say it's random who it happens to.
Because if you look at the people who are the player of the year, every year, usually
they are a very, very good player, but there's also a whole lot of other very good players
who have bad years and it happens and you have to know what you sign up for.
So anyway, business is very consistent, or at least more consistent than poker.
So I found that it's nice to have steady income.
How lucrative is it to run an online teaching business where you got, you know, hundreds
of thousands of students paying you like I am a monthly fee to learn poker?
Yeah, thank you.
So a long time ago, when I started the site, we were losing roughly $5,000 a month, just
paying coaches to make content, we were making the content ourselves as well.
And that kind of persisted until maybe eight or nine years ago, something like that.
So I had this six or seven or eight year period, I was just losing 5000 a month and I didn't
really view it as losing.
I viewed it as helping out all the other poker players.
I was making plenty of money.
I didn't really care.
And I was just doing it almost as a community service because I wanted to help out other
people who wanted to get good at poker and succeed like I did, because I realized I would
not be good at poker if I did not get help from the people who came before me who knew
more than I did.
And I don't know if I necessarily felt like I committed to it and had to do it or I would
lose face or something like that.
I don't know what I was doing, necessarily, I don't know why I was losing 5000 a month
back then.
It probably doesn't make a whole lot of logical sense, does it?
But I don't enjoy it.
I liked it.
It was fun.
So about nine or 10 years ago, I broke up with my fiance and I was at a casino drinking
and betting on sports like a degenerate, not a good thing to be doing.
We've all been there.
And I randomly ran into a guy, his name's Dan, and he liked my poker products.
And he had just gotten out of some sort of marketing class and said, why don't you make
me a video of you playing online for like eight hours?
And I'll see if I can sell it online.
And we'll split the money and we'll go from there.
So I sat down, I played that day, small stakes games, small stakes, 180 person tournaments,
I think I won like three or four of them, which was just insane, you're supposed to
win one in 180.
And I think I played like 50 and I ended up just winning all of them.
So I ran hot.
And we got this video and then he did his magic.
And we made something like $10,000 in sales from that video that month.
And then the next month, he kept selling it and made something like six or 8000 the next
month, right?
So we made a video that we make that took eight hours of work or whatever for me just
sitting down playing poker.
And it was very successful.
So Dan is in charge of my marketing.
And he has been since then.
He's my longest relationship I've ever had.
So that's kind of how things started to change and look for or look up because I was running
a training site that was failing by myself.
And then I found someone who was good at something that I was not good at, because I did literally
no marketing.
If you find Jonathan will, maybe you'll sign up to the site.
And then he started doing more marketing with affiliates and whatnot.
You made an email list.
I didn't know what an email list was besides you sign up for the site and you get an email
giving you your information and things started to take off then.
So what does the revenue look like today compared to the question is how do we do now?
I think we're on track to something like 1.8 million ish in sales this year or something
like that, give or take crazy, maybe more, maybe less.
I don't know.
I'm always skeptical.
They're just going to like die at some point.
I don't know why, but it just continues going up and I don't really get how it continues
going up.
And what it amounts to is if you help people, they will reward you.
So you just have to make sure that you are adding substantial value.
And I'm lucky to be in an industry where people are happy to spend money to make more money.
Right.
And to be fair, if I charge at the most $100 a month for my highest tier membership, if
you watch one video a day, you're paying like three bucks per video, which is very, very
free in terms of high end education from many of the best players in the world.
I'm not the only coach on there.
I have a lot of other coaches and goodness, I don't know how much we spend each month.
It's like, I don't know, 70, 80 K on content, employees, et cetera.
So we have expenses.
Don't get me wrong.
We're just not pocketing all the money, but anything that you can learn from and make
substantially more money, usually people are pretty happy to pay for that.
And I mean, I've proven over and over again, I can take losing poker players and make them
into people who can win 100 bucks an hour playing live poker at their casino.
I've done it many, many, many times.
And that's what I do to people.
I help them go from losing money at poker to winning money at poker.
And it's worth a lot of money if you can help somebody win money.
For example, if I pay you like $500 or something, and yet I win $10,000 at poker, that $500
is free to me.
In fact, it was almost like, you know, you paid me.
But think about it, right?
Like, imagine you could pay, let's say you would sign up to my site, you'd study, I don't
know, 20 hours a month, let's say 30 hours a month, an hour a day.
And you say sign up for a year at the highest membership, they cost you 1200 bucks a year.
So you don't catch it on sale or anything.
So if you're paying the maximum, you're gonna spend 1200 a year.
But if over that year, you learn how to make $100 per hour, you have to play 12 hours and
it gets paid back.
And if you just start doing this 40 hours a week, 160 hours a month, you're making $16,000
a month, right?
So you pay me 1200 for a year, and you can then make 16,000.
Now, obviously, everyone does not crush it.
But the people who are really dedicated, the vast majority of them do.
The genius here is that by starting a business where you're teaching, you're kind of checking
off a lot of these boxes.
Number one, you are doing something you love, because generally, you're not going to be
able to teach something you're not very good at.
And if you're very good at something, you took the time to learn it, and you probably
love it.
And so that's kind of a great hack for figuring out what kind of business you can start, that
you're actually going to enjoy going to that won't feel like a drudge work or a terrible
grind.
Start teaching people something that you know.
And also, when you teach people, they're very grateful for it, because you're actually helping
them get better at something.
And then in your particular niche, it's super lucrative, because you're not just teaching
somebody a skill that's completely valueless, and they're just doing for fun.
You're teaching somebody a skill that's going to help them make more money.
And consistently, the most successful educators that I see are those, teaching people how
to code, teaching people how to make a lot of money playing poker, teaching people the
skills they need to get a promotion at their job or get a better job, etc.
And so I think you've just created the perfect alignment in all of these areas where you
can do something that you love and charge a lot of money and get paid.
Well, to be fair, we don't even charge a lot of money.
That's the interesting thing, is that the lowest tier on my site is like $10 a month.
Essentially, if you buy three years at a time, if you pay full price, so it's $40 a month.
But I also put out a ton of free content.
And I do that just to make people aware of me, right?
Because if they become, if I become known to them, now they're now going to look at
my content, I have content for players of all skill levels.
And you're going to start giving them wins.
And they're going to go from perhaps a big losing player to a smaller losing player.
And, you know, if you normally play poker, and you lose 20 bucks an hour, and now you're
losing only $10 an hour, it's actually a huge gain, if you think about it, it's the same
as making $10, essentially.
And I put out a lot of content to try to help people get better at poker.
And I know that I'm improving their, essentially their quality of life, because you'd rather
not lose whenever you're playing your games.
And people are happy to pay back for that.
And they realize it's expensive to hire other poker coaches to make content.
And I mean, I've devoted my whole life to this.
I could be out there playing poker today, and who knows where I would be, maybe I'd
be a better poker player, I don't even know.
And that's okay, I'm willing to, I'm willing to give that up to help lots of other people.
I mean, there's this idea of a talent stack or a skill stack where, you know, let's say
you just get good at one skill, you're just a really fast sprinter.
If you want to be one of the best in the world and make any money, you have so much competition,
you got to be better than 99.999% of people.
But if you can combine that with some other skill, you don't have to be as good at either
one of them.
You can combine the two of them and be like maybe top 10th percentile in the world and
succeed.
When I look at what you've done, you're super good at poker, you're a pro, you've made millions
playing poker, you're a great teacher, you're dedicated at producing content.
And you're not afraid of tech, you're super comfortable building websites from scratch
with technologists.
But a lot of people are afraid to hire someone, they think, I have no idea how to do any of
this.
I'm not a developer myself, so I guess I can't make a website.
And you've seen this with other poker players too.
I think Phil Ivey has a masterclass or something where he's worked in collaboration with this
company Masterclass to put out a video.
But I guarantee you hasn't made anywhere near as much money with that as you've made by
actually combining all these skills and putting them together.
To be fair, he probably didn't work nearly as hard either.
He just showed up and showed up recorded for a while.
I was very fortunate in that I kind of had a head start to a lot of people because I
was already known in the space, right?
There are a lot of poker players who tried to make training sites.
I'm presuming they don't make a whole lot of money because it just seems clear to me
that they're not.
And it's because they were not as well known as I was in the poker world.
I'm very fortunate to have an immense amount of authority already just purely based on
results, which is kind of different than a lot of things in the tech world unless you've
already founded a successful company, right?
So if you're a new founder, you're going to have a difficult time becoming known unless
you are already an authority in some space.
But I was already an authority in the poker space without even knowing what I was doing
just because I was very, very good at poker.
And also there were very few people doing what I was doing in the poker space.
There have been a few poker training sites that have come and gone throughout the years.
I might have the one that's been around the longest now that I think about it.
All the others have gone broke for whatever reason.
And it's going to sound bad, but most people are just not very good at teaching who also
play poker because a lot of people in the poker space who do make content very often
are not necessarily doing it to help as many people as they can.
They're doing it to try to give themselves additional credibility or to sound smart or
to try to sort of like appeal to very, very high level poker players.
And if you're only trying to teach very, very high level poker players or trying to impress
people by using terms they don't understand, then you're going to turn off the vast majority
of actual poker players, the people who actually need a whole lot of help.
Like if I tried to teach a world class player something, I mean, they could probably teach
me.
I still hire coaches because I know they're better than I am.
And that's okay, right?
But I am substantially better than every recreational poker player.
And that allows me to provide lots of value to them.
And there's a whole lot of recreational poker players, but not a whole lot of very, very,
very high level poker players.
So make sure you at least targeting some sort of a big market unless you're going to charge
like infinite money for your product.
There was a book a long time ago in the poker world, and I think they sold it for like $5,000
for a 300 page PDF by one of the best poker players online.
And I don't know how many he sold, but I'm sure he sold some.
And you write a book, sell it for 5,000 bucks, and you sell 30 of them, and I guess you're
happy.
But we sell our books for normal prices, and you have to sell a whole bunch of them to
make any money, but that's okay.
Yeah, what is the most lucrative part of what you're doing?
Because your YouTube channel is free.
I guess you might be able to make money through ads.
No, I purposely have no ads.
I do not want ads.
I do not want to have a bad viewing experience for the people watching.
I'm a big fan of not advertising random stuff, toothpaste and deodorant or whatever, before
you have to watch my content.
You don't need to do that.
I advertise by promoting my products.
I'll say check out my site, pokercoaching.com, or I will link back to an article that I wrote
about a particular thing.
I have a bunch of URLs stuck in my head, like you want to know about bankroll management.
Go to jonathanlittlepoker.com slash bankroll, right?
I know I have these all in my brain index, and when it comes up, I'll throw it out, and
somebody will go to that site, they'll check it out, they'll read it, it'll help them,
and maybe I get their business.
And so essentially, I am the product, right?
And I want people to see me, not an ad for toothpaste.
But yeah, so you don't make a ton of money on books, really.
If you sell a physical book, you make roughly $3 as the author per book.
Poker books, if they're really good, may sell like 10,000 copies in a year, give or take.
I have the best selling poker books.
And I know I make a little bit more than that, but not a ton more.
And back in the day, it was thought that this one book sold something like 100,000 copies,
that was like the most successful poker book.
And that was sort of in the poker heyday.
So you're not really making a ton of money from the books.
And I realized that I'm more so making the books is to, again, try to get in front of
people, right?
Amazon is a big search engine.
And I want Jonathan little stuff to come up when people type in poker into Amazon.
Because that's another way for people to find me.
Same reason we have a podcast, right?
That's free.
And I do that.
So if people are on iTunes, or Stitcher, Overcast, or whatever, they type in poker, and maybe
they'll find me.
And same reason I write articles for physical newspapers, and physical magazines, and all
this stuff, right?
Because if I want them to open up their newspaper and see an article about poker, and they go,
that's cool.
Let me read that.
And they see it's by me, and maybe they follow me.
So a ton of the stuff I do does not actually make money.
What makes the money is the membership side, because that's the thing where you can charge
$100 per month, and you get to keep all of it, right?
There's no real expenses.
Whereas with a physical book, the thing costs 20 bucks to print, right?
And with a website, I have employees, and they get paid very nicely.
But that's where most of the money comes from, because it makes sense, right?
It's a thing with relatively little overhead, and it's quick to iterate on, and quick to
put out new content.
Like right here, we're making a video right now, it's gonna take us the hour and a half
we're making it, and then it's done.
And I can do this all day, every day.
Yeah, I think it's a super smart model as an educator, because, like you said, you're
just being genuinely helpful, you're not doing this just to make yourself look good, you're
doing this to actually figure out what people need help with.
And if they see you on all these different channels, they're like, hey, I've seen Jonathan
every time I search for poker, I really trust him, he's got good advice, maybe I should,
you know, pay for his training, because paying for any sort of membership website or education
is you want to know that the person you're gonna buy from is reputable, that they're
gonna be good.
For sure.
And I've actually done some things to try to make myself more reputable.
And that's often done by collaborating with other people who are also thought to be very
reputable.
So I just finished up a book that I kind of like that book, I wrote with 15 people, I
wrote it with nine other people this time, they are many of the best online poker players
in the world, and they're thought to be some of the best poker players in the world and
collaborating with people and showing that these people work with me and I work with
them, even if people perhaps don't respect my poker game, for whatever reason, probably
because I'm, you know, my age, I'm not a young kid anymore, and I'm not grinding online poker
all day every day, some people may think perhaps he's not the best poker player anymore.
But they see you collaborating with people who are the best, which means I am hanging
out with these people talking poker with these people.
That gives credibility to what I'm doing.
And with my poker training side, I've hired people who have equally good or better results
than me purposefully, because if I am not a big enough draw to get people to the site,
maybe these other people are.
That's also super smart.
And you know, all these other people have probably spent a lot of time building up their
own audiences.
And now you kind of have access to their audiences.
If somebody wants to read one of their books, and they find, you know, a chapter from you
in there, then suddenly, you're reaching a lot of people you wouldn't have reached otherwise.
For sure.
And I mean, it's kind of like when you have a startup, if you have a board, if you have
a board of five really well known people, that's going to give you way more credibility
than if you have five random people, even if they're not actually even doing a ton,
right?
I mean, to be fair, I'm sure the boarders do a lot in a lot of cases, but just being
associated with those people make you look competent.
So how did you learn to do all this stuff?
I think it's fascinating that you, you know, you've kind of grinded it out with poker,
you did what it took to become a professional poker player.
And then you've kind of grinded it out with online business.
And you figured out how to maximize, you know, your usage of all these different distribution
channels and become like a really respected, you know, educator, you know, what would you
say are some of the similarities and differences and those processes that, you know, somebody
who hasn't done anything like either of those would, would benefit from knowing.
So I do a whole lot of studying as I go, to some extent, if I need, if I don't know a
whole lot, but whatever I need to know, I make a point to sit down and learn.
So there's a book by Tim Ferriss, the four hour workweek that got me into the idea of
maybe I should try to be more serious about my own business.
I mean, it's worth mentioning that a lot of people who are poker players, their goal is
to become sponsored by a poker site where you play poker.
And the problem with that is that these sites don't really operate within America.
And the ones that do are usually unlicensed, unregulated, and they could go bankrupt at
any point in time.
So I don't really want to represent them.
So I understood a long time ago that no one is going to give me a deal because I'm in
American poker player.
And that means if I want to make money from poker besides from actually going to the tournaments
and grinding it out and playing, well, I need to figure out a way to do that, right?
So I already had the training site for fun, right?
And I decided to ramp it up a little bit.
So I like the four hour workweek.
There's a podcast called the smart passive income podcast with Pat Flynn.
I've listened to all of those.
Those are very good.
And those were the two main things.
I mean, I made my website, Jonathan, low poker.com myself, because I just wanted to see if I could
do it.
You know, Pat Flynn sort of inspired me to do that.
And I had a blog there that I would post a written blog, I did it every every week for
about five years.
I sort of let that go in exchange for really focusing on YouTube.
Now I put out three or four YouTube videos a week, which is easier, more fun, etc.
And I don't know, say it's I tried to find people who I can model myself after who are
crushing it.
And I try to learn everything I can from them.
I listened to a ton of podcasts even today.
I mean, basically, all the time when I'm not working, I used to get to listen more because
I'd be traveling to play poker tournaments, and I would listen all the time and you can
grind through a bunch of them.
And you listen and you try to learn.
I mean, today I listened to a podcast this weekend startups with Jason Calacanis.
I like his podcast a lot.
Some people hate him.
Some people love him.
I love him.
He's a polarizing figure.
He is a polarizing figure.
Actually, he told me to read this book.
The Lean Startup.
Here it is right here.
Yeah, by Eric Ries.
I was going on a trip.
I sent him a message.
Hey, what book do I need to get?
He said, read this book.
The Lean Startup.
He has a book called Angel.
You should get his book, Angel, if you want to invest in companies.
Yeah.
That's what I'm fond of saying.
He's the world's leading angel investor.
Yeah, I worry he may be kind of like Phil Hellmuth and that he just thinks he is.
So I'm not entirely sure.
There's a poker player, Phil Hellmuth, who has the most world series of poker bracelets,
kind of like Jason has some of the most unicorn angel investments or whatnot.
And you don't know if they're actually good or just lucky, but I play to Phil Hellmuth
and he does some absurd things.
Then they always seem to work out.
So maybe actually is a genius.
I love Phil.
I've worked with Phil.
He loves his biography and he collaborated with me a few times and I like Jason too.
They're fun.
But I learn as I go, right?
So I definitely do not know how to do a lot of things and the things I don't know how
to do, I've become very comfortable with outsourcing or hiring someone to do it who knows better
than I do.
Let's say like you've dove deep into this tech world, the fact that you're listening
to these tech podcasts, you're reading these tech books, you're not kind of just sitting
on the outskirts, you're learning from other people.
But I think also what you're doing, you don't have that many role models to sort of follow
in their footsteps.
You have that many other big poker coaching websites and people who are really succeeding
the way that you are.
So who do you look up to?
Who are you inspired by and what sort of playbook are you following?
And also, what's the end goal of all of this?
What is pokercoaching.com at its highest potential?
What does that look like?
These are things I don't really think a whole lot about.
I just sit down and do the work.
I'm definitely not good at chilling and relaxing and thinking about necessarily what is the
end goal because at the moment, I have no desire to quit.
A lot of people in the tech world want to build something and then sell it and then
do something else.
I don't really want to sell my company.
I do not want investors in my company unless I absolutely love them.
I have zero investors currently, I own 100% of the business.
And I'm not trying to quit.
I think a lot of people who think in that way kind of want to get out and retire.
I don't really want to retire.
I'm happy with doing what I'm doing.
That said, I mean, the goal is to continue growing.
I know some numbers from the biggest training site in the past that is now defunct.
We have roughly 20%, 25% as many people as they had at the peak of the poker boom.
We're charging more money than they did.
They were charging 20 bucks a month.
We're charging 100 sometimes.
So we're charging more money.
So maybe we're making as much money, I'm not sure.
But the goal would be at least as big as they were and perhaps bigger.
I mean, in the ideal world, everyone who plays poker is aware of me, right?
And that's just not the case.
There are only three or four like household names in the poker world among people who
know poker.
I'll go and I'll sit down at a random thousand dollar buying tournament and only half the
players will know me, which I mean, I guess is it just shows that there's still room
to grow.
Right.
And those are people who are buying in for a thousand bucks.
These are not people playing at the kitchen table with their friends.
And the people who got famous, at least like household name famous from poker, like Phil
Helmut or Dale Negron or Dora Brunson, they did very well around 2003 to 2010.
And they got a bunch of coverage on ESPN.
And I did not have the benefit of that.
So I have to try to figure out a way to replicate that in some different manner.
But in the ideal world, I will be big names like those that will allow me to reach the
entire poker market.
And well, then we'll clean up.
Yeah, I think when I talked to any hackers who are building profitable businesses, there's
much less of a desire to sell out, there's much less of a desire to take on investors
and eventually get bought.
And there's more of a desire to build a business that sort of is cohesive with their lifestyle
where they get to do what they like doing and just grow their revenue and just be happy
kind of doing exactly what you're doing.
Yeah, I mean, I realize I have a solid lifestyle business, right?
I'm never going to make $100 million in revenue from this business just because the market
is definitely not that big, right?
I recognize that.
And that's okay.
I don't have a problem with that.
So I think I am fully aware of the situation I am in.
And I realized that poker is still very popular.
I mean, for all I know, in five or 10 years, the game could be dead.
And then the business is dead.
We have to figure out something else.
I mean, that's one of the reasons I started looking into angel investing, because I think
I have a good temperament for it, because it's kind of like playing poker tournaments,
where you just fire a lot of bullets and in good situations and hope they work out.
Maybe they do.
Maybe they don't try to be helpful as best you can giving advice whenever the founders
need it.
And it's something that I could realistically do, right?
You want to you always want to have at least you want to consider things that you can do
after what you're doing in case it just dies or fails or whatever.
Some people don't like having a backup plan, I'd rather have a backup plan than not, especially
if it has the opportunity to somewhat passively-ish make money.
Like now, I invest with Jason Calacanis a ton.
And so you find people who are crushing it, learn from them.
And with any luck, you'll figure out how to replicate it if you need to.
I think a buddy of mine, I play in a cash game with him regularly almost every night
since the COVID-19 quarantine started.
But he's got a cool business.
I got to get on the podcast.
But one of his investors is Jason Calacanis.
And I think you're also invested.
It's underground seller.
He does sort of wine delivery.
And his story is fascinating right now because the lockdowns have sort of blown up his business,
getting a ton more sales just because everybody wants to get wine and you really can't go
out and drink anymore.
How is it going with poker?
Have you seen more people signing up to play poker to learn how to play poker since quarantine
started or has it been relatively unaffected?
It's up a little bit.
I did not know how it would go because I did not know if poker was just kind of going to
die.
I didn't know if everyone's going to move to online poker.
That was sort of the big question.
So if people just stop playing poker altogether, the business would have done poorly.
But fortunately, most people have just moved their play to online poker.
The online poker sites are currently booming.
Like never before.
I mean, the games are so soft right now.
I used to not play online whenever I was at home because whenever I'm home, it's my work
on business time and hang out with my family time.
I have a wife and a one year old and a three year old son.
And that's what I want to do when I am at home, not sit down and play poker.
But eventually I got convinced by one of my coaches on my side is like, look, you just
have to play on Sunday.
Sundays are the big online poker day where basically everyone plays.
So I've been playing Sundays and it's been going well enough.
So sometimes the games are just too good.
And right now the games are too good.
Let's talk about some of the specific tactics for the different parts of your business and
then I'll let you get out of here.
A lot of people are trying to start a business in just one of the many areas that you have
your business running in.
Email or YouTube or courses.
Let's talk about YouTube first.
What is the biggest thing you've learned about growing a YouTube channel that's successful?
I don't know.
Show up and make content.
I mean, I think really a lot of the answer to a lot of these things is show up, do good
work and figure out ways to get in front of people.
I mean, some of my content does great.
Some of it does not do so well.
I mean, it's not what I would like, but it turns out discussing current events that are
very popular at this point in time seem to get a lot more traction than perhaps discussing
straight strategy.
I would prefer to discuss straight strategy because I don't care about gossip or drama.
But I don't know, six months ago or so, someone folded four of a kind and they posted about
it on the Internet and it's probably a good fold.
And I made a video about it and that got tons of views.
But like in reality, for every time you got four of a kind, you just folded it, it would
cost you almost no money because you actually never get four of a kind.
So this is an instant.
This is an instant that essentially never occurs.
You may perhaps should fold four of a kind one time in your entire life, maybe one time
in 10 lives.
And even if you make the call, you lose.
It just doesn't matter.
There was a straight flush available for those who don't know the poker rules.
There was like one hand that would beat you.
Usually when you lose to exactly one hand, you should not fall.
But the way this hand played out, like bet, raise, re-raise, re-raise, re-raise all in
on the river.
It's like, okay, guys, straight flush.
Right.
And so anyway, that video is incredibly, incredibly popular.
But like in my mind as an educator, it added no value because yeah, you just don't get
four of a kind.
Who cares?
Don't fold your four of a kind and you'll be fine.
Or like, it just doesn't matter.
Right?
It's a spot that just doesn't matter yet.
The general public likes it.
There was a cheating scandal a while back where I'm not going to go into it.
Anyway, it was a little bit too intricate to discuss here.
Yeah.
There's a guy, Mike Postle, who somehow cheating and I had the lawyer who is the lawyer for
the plaintiffs who are trying to get their money back.
I interviewed him two or three times and he's my lawyer as well.
So it's convenient.
And those are very popular as well, but it's all drama to some extent, right?
And I don't really care about drama, but there are a few very popular poker YouTube channels
that are very heavily current events based and they do well.
So that's something I should probably do more, but I just don't want to.
So I don't really, I'm always on the lookout for things like folding four of a kind.
I guess I can, I can take that from a educational spin, like, Hey, it doesn't really matter.
So anyway, you want to do things that people are talking about, that people care about.
If anything, try to piggyback off of other things that are popular.
It's going to sound bad.
There's this poker YouTube personality, I guess he's kind of out of it now.
But one of his marketing tactics was to find people who were successful and then try to
drag them down, try to berate them, try to belittle them.
And people would latch onto that because maybe they don't like that person, right?
As well.
So you find someone bashing someone you also don't like, maybe you become popular.
Someone's going to like you who's actually in the know, but you know, random haters will
and maybe that's a way to build an audience.
I would never do that.
But there are all sorts of marketing tactics, but in general, find the content people want
to consume and then give it to them with your unique spin.
So YouTube consistency and given the YouTube audience a little bit of drama and current
events.
What about a podcast?
What's helped you?
What's helped you grow your podcast?
So the podcast has gone through many iterations for the long time, it was just a show called
Weekly Poker Hand, where every week I would sit down, I'd talk about a poker hand until
I was done talking about it, usually 10 or 15 minutes.
And that was fine and good.
Usually I'll record like, I'll just sit down and record 10 of them in a day or 15 of them
in a day and be done for two months or three months.
And I would not say that's immensely popular, but now that's also YouTube content.
And when I'm making it, I'm mindful that this is going to go into audio as well.
So I'll like read out the cards on the board and the cards in my head, I don't assume that
person listening can hear it, right?
Like this, this could easily be on YouTube, this could easily be on iTunes, right?
It can be on both, right?
So now most of the stuff that goes to the podcast is just YouTube content that also
makes sense for audio.
And I don't even know how that does, I don't even check it.
It does give some download.
I'm not like highly focusing on that.
Really, again, the goal is just to like be in that search engine on iTunes search engine
or other podcast search engines.
And I'm not like going hard on that, but it's fine enough.
YouTube is really where we've been going hard in terms of actually making good, dedicated
content for that platform, because that's where a lot of people are.
It turns out that that's where I have the most followers.
And YouTube is huge.
Yeah, I mean, it's massive.
It really is.
So you might as well go where all the people are.
Even if you Google for, you know, advice on a particular poker hand, the chances that
you're going to get a YouTube video on the search results are pretty high.
And the chances that it's going to be one of your videos is also pretty high.
For my poker training sites, every two weeks, I have a group of students who they'll get
on, they'll ask me questions.
But before that, I'll present 30 minutes on a topic.
They request the topics, topic that has never been requested before.
And I record all these videos and I have classes on the site.
We have 100 or 200 of these things where all the common questions about poker, I've sat
down and I've discussed it with, you know, good thinking poker players for like 30 minutes.
So we have the answer to every reasonable poker question you're going to ask on the
site.
Like, it's almost like an encyclopedia where, what do I do in this scenario?
Or how do I play this hand?
Or how do I manage my bankroll or whatever, like anything you want answered, I have that
at my site purposely, right, so that you don't really need to go anywhere else to try to
find information.
Yeah.
So YouTube's big.
It's always, what's the biggest thing you've learned about building sort of your own website
where you're teaching people and selling courses and selling memberships?
Show up and do the work again.
I know it's the same answer.
But you really do have to show up and do the work.
A lot of people want to work some and then just forget about it and be done.
They want to make a course, which is fine and good.
There are people out there who have made six hours of content and they call it a course.
They sell it for $1,500.
And there's nothing wrong with that.
You're allowed to make whatever you want.
It can be high level, low level, any price.
But I think you're going to, well, that's almost like a side hobby, right?
Where you're going to sit down.
You're going to make this thing.
You're going to sell it.
The poker players should do this.
They put a substantial amount of money behind marketing.
I see them advertising all the time.
So I know they're spending money, or at least maybe I'm exactly the person they would try
to advertise to high level poker players, I'm not sure.
But that's the way a lot of people do a lot of things.
They sit down, they make this project, they finish the project and they're done.
Like there's courses on poker that cost $1,500 or $2,000 online, they were made three or four
years ago.
They're kind of out of date.
I'm sure some people are still buying it because of their marketing efforts, but it's not even
a high level cutting edge material, which, you know, again, it's fine.
You can sell whatever you want.
I have no problem with that.
It's still good content.
And if they put substantially more effort into it, I think they would have a substantially
better product.
But at the same time, that's probably not what they want to be doing.
They want to be playing poker.
They like playing poker.
They just want to do something on the side to bring in some side income and now they're
done.
But the way I do it is definitely a full time job, more than a full time job.
And it's hard work, but I don't mind the work.
I like the work.
Try to like the work.
That's the answer.
You can do it indefinitely.
It's pretty obvious that you like what you're doing.
It's pretty obvious from watching your videos and listening to your lessons on your website
that you like what you're doing.
And it's made me a lot of money.
It's made, I'm sure, a lot of other people a lot of money.
Good.
Yeah.
Go take all of Jeff's money and vote me.
I have been.
Thanks a lot for coming on the show.
Most of the people listening to this are sort of fledgling or aspiring indie hackers.
You know, they don't necessarily have an idea they want to work on, or if they have, they
just gotten started and they haven't really put in the work and grinded it out.
You know, what would you leave them with?
Just a word of advice to help them get started and build up some confidence.
I mean, if you don't know what you want to do yet, try a lot of things, right?
Like in terms of games, like if I wanted to play games, I should try a lot of games.
And we're not considering money at this point, but like imagine, like poker would not be
the game that I would play because I've tried a lot of games.
There are a lot of games that are, in my mind, better than poker, but they're not played
for money.
They're not as popular for whatever reason.
Maybe I like the game a lot, but other people don't, and that's okay.
So you want to ask really, like, what are you really trying to accomplish here?
Like if your goal is to make money, then you must get in a big market to some extent, right?
Or at least you have to be able to design something that adds immense value that is
irreplaceable for corporations and because they're the ones who can pay a ton of money
for things.
So you want to figure out what you're actually trying to accomplish.
I think a lot of people just kind of piddle around and they inevitably don't actually
focus on figuring out what they want out of life and what they want out of business and
what they want out of, well, everything they are spending their time on.
And I also just don't waste time.
A lot of people waste their time by watching nonsense on TV or by playing games or perhaps
there's even like studying a lot, learning a lot, right?
Like I listened to a ton of podcasts.
I'm sure I could have been doing other things during those periods of time that would maybe
even be more useful.
I'm not sure.
Those things have certainly helped me, but maybe I should have been reading more books
or maybe I should have been actively talking to people more.
I'm not sure.
But I try to use your time wisely.
A lot of people squander a lot of their time and spend your time actively working towards
whatever it is you're trying to accomplish, but sit down and figure out what you're actually
trying to accomplish.
It's tough to know exactly who I'm even talking to here though, because if you have literally
nothing going on right now and you want to have a company that's doing, I don't know,
$100 million in revenue, like I don't know where to tell you to start, I have no other
ideas besides exactly a poker training site.
If my poker training site died today, I would be in a mess.
So hopefully that doesn't happen.
And if you have any good ideas, let me know.
All right, be deliberate about your goals and then be deliberate about how you spend
your time trying to reach those goals.
That's right.
Do it.
Do the work.
Jonathan Little, thank you so much for coming on the show.
Thanks for having me.
Can you let listeners know where they can go to find you online, find what you're selling
and find, you know, your advice.
My training site is pokercoaching.com.
If you're new to poker, go to pokercoaching.com slash fundamentals.
There we have a fundamentals course.
You can get the first few parts completely for free.
You can sign up to the site and get access to a trial of the site completely for free.
I have a Twitter at Jonathan Little, just my name.
YouTube is youtube.com slash pokercoaching.
Yeah, those are the main channels.
All right, Jonathan.
Thanks again.
All right.
Listeners, if you enjoyed this episode and you want an easy way to support the podcast,
you should leave a review for us on iTunes or Apple podcasts.
Probably the fastest way to get there if you're on a Mac is to visit ndhackers.com slash reviews.
I really appreciate your support and I read pretty much all the reviews you leave over
there.
Thank you so much for listening.
And as always, I will see you next time.