What's up, everybody? This is Cortland from IndieHackers.com, and you're listening to
the IndieHackers podcast. On this show, I talk to the founders of profitable internet
businesses and I try to get a sense of what it's like to be in their shoes. How do they
get to where they are today? How do they make decisions both with their businesses and in
their personal lives? And what exactly makes their businesses tick? And the goal here is
always so that the rest of us can learn from their examples and go on to build our own
successful online businesses.
In this episode, I'll be talking to Allie Lefever. Allie is a co-founder of Obedient,
where she and her co-founder lead a small but talented team that has run brand marketing
campaigns for companies like BuzzFeed, AT&T, Dell, and the Dallas Cowboys. Allie, welcome
to the show and thank you so much for coming on.
Thank you so much for having me.
It is my pleasure to have you on here, Allie. The top of your homepage makes it very clear
what you do. If I go to ObedientAgency.com, at the very top it says, in big bold letters,
we do all the shit that other branding agencies do but funnier. What do other branding agencies
do and why aren't they as funny as you guys?
Well, I appreciate you snooping around the homepage. I would say that what we mean by
all the shit that other branding agencies do but funnier is we are doing what I think
other agencies claim to do, right? Is that we are helping build your brand in a way that
gets you brand awareness, brand attention through the use of creative, clever, converting
campaigns, and then design, etc.
But I think the spin for us is that all the things that other people are doing we deem
tend to be pretty safe. They tend to be pretty expected, can be a little bit boring, can
be sometimes unaffected, a lot of times fear-based or really preying on your audience's insecurities
or inadequacies and really using fear as a primary tactic.
We do all the things that you want for your brand. You want your brand to get attention
and you want people to remember it and you want people to get excited by it and you want
to increase sales and grow your business but we do it in a way that's fun, that's feel
good, that's funny, that is positive, that is different, that is surprising, and that
is really unlike anything else you see in the market.
You said that a lot of marketing is fear-based and on your website you say the same thing
that you need to be willing to sell with fun, not fear. What does it mean to sell with fear?
That's not something I've heard too many people advocating, at least not in those terms.
Yeah, I think it's become so commonplace and it's really just permeated the marketing
and branding culture that I don't think we often realize we are being baited with fear.
But it is essentially any tactic that leads you to believe that you are somehow insufficient
inadequate and that there is this external outside product that is going to fill some
void inside of you, that is going to make you better, that is going to finally make
you happy, that's going to finally give you the life or experience that you need.
And that is an endless pit and it is just the way that brands have primarily targeted
their audiences for so long. It's like we have a skin cream that's going to make you
look younger, we have a pill that's going to make you look thinner, or just even that
we have something that's going to make you a better business person. We're going to
make your life easier so you can be a better parent.
Everything is saying that you could be better than you are. So it's somehow tapping into
there is something missing or inadequate about who you are right now.
When you put it this way, I feel like I'm doing this. Andy Hackers is all about starting
a company so that you can live a better life, you can make more money, you can have more
control. Is this fear-based marketing to tell people that they can be better than who they
are?
No, I don't think it is all the time because I think you really do have to touch on someone's
needs. You do have to understand what drives people and what their needs are, what is something
that they want to aspire to. You want to do all that, but I think you don't have to make
someone feel shitty in order to make a sale.
When we say use fun over fear, we think there is a way to tap into those needs and to understand
your audience and to help them aspire to a better, more whole, more healthy, happier,
joyful version of who they are. Allow that to be a process that feels good along the
way, that it isn't manipulative, it isn't coercive, it isn't making them feel bad in
order to then flip the switch and make them feel good. Definitely, people want to aspire
to grow as people, but you don't have to do it in a way that makes them feel cruddy first.
I think that's why we say fun is a way better tactic that still yields the right results.
What does fun-based marketing look like? Can you give us an example?
Fun-based marketing, as we see it, is building a... I guess I'll back up. When we think of
fun, we think of fun as a really wide spectrum. Fun is a term that we believe holds a lot
of weight and that it often doesn't get the credit it deserves. Fun as just an idea is
something that can do a ton of heavy lifting for a brand. It is something that could provide
excitement. It could build trust. It could create brand loyalty. It could create goodwill,
endearment, kinship, familiarity. In terms of what it can elicit in an audience, it can
elicit confidence in your brand. It can make your brand more relatable. It can make your
brand more memorable. It can make it more impactful, compelling, unique, all these different things.
When we think of fun-based marketing, we are thinking of this broader concept that has
a million different shades and styles. It's essentially a tactic, but a very smart tactic,
because people want to be in the presence of things that make them feel good, and that
is brands included.
Fun-based marketing is anything that is memorable. It makes you smile. It's delightful. It's
surprising. It's unexpected. It's all of these emotions that essentially draw out the
best parts of your consumer.
For example, there is a really funny campaign out that just came out within the past few
days. KFC has created this really fun satirical influencer account on Instagram. They are
using fun and a bit of… They are essentially lampooning the Instagram influencers by creating
this cool, sexy, hip, young version of the KFC kernel and creating this entire Instagram
campaign that he is this sexy, cool fried chicken influencer that is also repping other
brands.
It's very silly. It's very unexpected. It's very different. It's gotten a ton of buzz,
a ton of followers because it's enjoyable. People are engaging with it because it makes
them feel good, because it's something fresh on their Instagram feed.
It's an example of a brand doing something very, very silly, very unique, very different
in order to capture attention. Then, ultimately, people are talking about it. People have a
now more goodwill and endearment to that brand because it's allowed your audience to really
engage in a way that makes them feel really good and enjoy the experience.
It's just one very silly real-time example. The cool thing about fun and humor is that
there are so many shades to it. It's not just silly. It's not just playful. It can
be really clever and witty. It can be very direct. It can be very dry to the point. It
can be very savage. There are a million different shades that all evoke something different.
Let's say that I am not KFC. Let's say I'm more of an early-stage fledgling founder.
I might not have a product yet. If I do, it certainly hasn't caught fire. Should I be
thinking about brand marketing? Is that something that even applies to me at this level or is
it something that's really more for bigger, more established companies to worry about?
I think it's never too early to think about your brand. I think often people, they wait
till it's... I don't think it's ever too late, but I think that they wait too long to start
to think about their brand. I think really how you show up to the market and how you
show up to your audience, that is a foundational element to any good business and any good
brand experience. You want people to know who you are. You want them to understand you.
You want them to like you. You want them to trust you. In order to do that, they have
to have a cohesive, consistent experience with you. They also want to feel like you
are more than just a brand. There's a human element to you. That's another great benefit
of fun. It's a very humanizing quality that you can showcase when you are putting your
business out into the world.
Because of that, I think it allows a brand to evolve more organically because there's
a really strong foundation there. People already get who you are. They already start to understand
components of your personality. That is really easy to flex and pivot and to really grow
from that cohesive, consistent standpoint.
I think that if you're putting out all this chaos into the market, I'm dry and boring
on my website. I try to be very zeitgeisty and punny on my Instagram handle. I occasionally
send out emails, but they're really long-winded. People don't really understand who you are.
They don't really know what you're about. When someone doesn't trust an experience they
have with you, they no longer trust you as a person or trust you as a brand because what
I think we're all looking for is more than authenticity. We're looking for integrity
in a brand. We want to know that there is a consistent core value that runs throughout
everything that you do. I think that that starts with building a really strong, consistent,
cohesive personality.
I want to pick your brain here because you are an expert marketer. You've been doing
this for many years. There's probably a lot of things that you've forgotten. A lot of
people listening, quite frankly, have no idea.
Most of us are developers. We're not known for being particularly good at communicating
or marketing what we're doing. What are some of the things in this playbook that a founder
should think about when they're trying to build a good brand?
When we work with any brand, so any brand we have ever worked with since our inception,
we take them through a multi-phase process. But I'll talk about two of those components
that I think are really, really important when building your brand.
As an agency, we don't do everything. We aren't building your business infrastructure. We're
not doing your finance and accounting. We're not doing any of that stuff. But we're really
doing the creative elements of who you are.
When we work with any business right out the gate, the first couple things we're doing
is we're developing your position and also your personality.
When I say position, I mean what is the thing that you do that is different, that is unique,
that is compelling, that is something that is unlike anyone else in your industry that
would really set you apart, allow you to rise above the noise, allow you to really separate
yourself from the pack.
And we call that your hook. So what is the thing that's going to really hook in your
audience because it's going to make them stop and go, huh, that's something I haven't heard
before or that feels very fresh and that feels very different. So we really drill down is
what is this really sticky, catchy hook that we want to cultivate for your brand? And it
should be rooted in truth and reality. It should not be something that we're making
up just to be buzzy and just to be different. It should be rooted in the foundation of who
you are as a brand. And often what we always find is that people come to us and they think
that they come to us and they know their business. They spend all their time in their business
and they really know their brand. And often the thing that they think is sexy and cool
and exciting about what they do, we often don't end up agreeing. And so we're saying,
yeah, that's really cool and unique, but that's not the thing that's going to really put you
on the map or that's not the thing that people are going to really pay attention to or talk
about. So we're really trying to figure out what is that one-liner soundbite. That becomes
the foundation of all the other things you talk about when you talk about your brand.
That becomes kind of the through line that all arrows lead back there. And then the second
thing is what we're developing is what is your personality. So based on this really
cool, unique, different position and your goals as a brand or your goals as a business,
your audience, your industry, exciting things you have coming up down the pipeline, what
is the emotion that you want to evoke in your audience? Do you want to build trust? Do you
want to build reliability? Do you want to be memorable? Do you want people to really
feel lighthearted in your presence? What is the thing you really want to evoke from your
audience? And so what we're doing is we're starting to shape and build a personality
around those core emotions that we want to elicit. And now often if we're working with
a smaller business, it's often very times aligned with the founders. We want it to feel
like a reflection of who they are. We want to draw out certain components of their personality
and bring that to the forefront. Sometimes it's a bigger brand and we can kind of create
more of an amalgamation. But at the end of the day, it should be consistent. So we're
trying to build, think of each as individuals. We have very unique personalities. And for
people who've known us for 10 years, they can probably really understand the components
of our personality in a very synthesized way. And that's what we want to do for brands.
It should feel like it's a person. It should feel human. It should feel tangible and understandable
and likable and all of those components. And so we are developing a personality so that
you can start showing up in a very consistent way across various components of your business.
But the fun part about that is that just like a person, sometimes we're more extroverted
in one place and more introverted in another or we're more outgoing in front of certain
people and we're a little bit more quirky when we're with our family. Whatever those
little nuances are, you can have that same flexibility with your brand, with your brand's
personality. There's still this core, consistent personality at its epicenter, but then you
can kind of flex on different platforms. And maybe you're a little bit more loosey goosey
on Instagram and you're a little bit more direct and to the point in email and maybe
your website is a little bit more educational. Like whatever those components are, you get
to have a lot of fun and flex and play.
I just interviewed a really impressive founder. Her name is Danielle Baskin and she does,
she's like running 23 businesses simultaneously and she's got like this down to a science.
She has like a whole playbook of how she's going to make everything she does fun and
jokey and novel. I mean, she has a company where she's branding fruit and selling them
to conferences. She had a company where she was creating sweaters and putting them on
drones so you could sort of a knitted sweater for your drone.
But I can tell you from experience, most indie hackers, most first-time founders are not
thinking about any of this. They're not thinking about any of the things that you suggested.
They're not thinking about what kind of emotion do I want my company to evoke and my customers,
partly through ignorance, I think, and partly because it's not immediately obvious like
how that's going to help you.
So I guess part of my goal in this interview is to walk you through your story and find
out how you've learned the things that you've learned. But I also just want to like mine
you for information on all these things that founders are really struggling with, with
copywriting and talking to customers and positioning themselves and evoking certain emotions and
try to understand why these things are important, how we can do a better job.
Yeah. And what I'll say to that is, you know, standing out isn't a matter of taste in this
day and age. It's a matter of survival. Most industries are saturated. It is very difficult
to come across a company that is doing something radically different than anyone else is doing
in their industry.
So often the thing that's going to set you apart is the way you talk about what you do.
Right. This is assuming that you are still, you know, you're presenting a high quality
product or service. So to me, that goes without saying, I would never, ever align myself with
a brand that is putting lipstick on a pig, you know. So it's assuming that you are and
you have integrity in what you do. You have a quality to the product or service you offer.
But I think that there's this misconception that you are going to put your thing out into
the world and that people are just automatically going to pay attention to it. It seems so
personal and so unique to you because it's an idea that's sprung into your own mind.
And so it feels fresh and it feels relevant and it feels new and it feels exciting. But
the odds are it's not really any different than what is out there in the world already
until you let people know that it is.
And so often the way that you can do that is through the words you use when you talk
about your brand. It's through all of the way you communicate it and you message it
and you market it and drawing out all the unique, cool, different, compelling parts
of it. And I think that's something that people forget. I know we're going to go into my story
so I won't really dive deep into it. But before I was running Obedient, I was doing brand
strategy and branding for sometimes solopreneurs or people who were kind of at the foundational
stages of their business. And they'd come to the table and go, okay, I'm going to put
my idea out into the world and here it is world and it's crickets. And then they're
shocked and they're flabbergasted and no one is buying and no one is paying attention and
no one is talking about it and their Instagram followers aren't growing at all. And all these
things that they think that just by putting something out into the world that all this
magic is going to happen. And people don't buy from you until they care about you and
people can't care about you until they know you. And so you have to give them a thing
to know, like, and understand. And I think the cool part about fun is it's an enjoyable
thing to know, like, and understand. So that's my little spiel on that.
When I first started Indie Hackers, it took about three weeks from idea to launch. And
I spent probably a grand total of one day thinking about branding, marketing type stuff
and the other 20 days I was just writing code, interviewing people, et cetera. And I made
a few decisions. The first decision I made that I think was a good one was to call it
Indie Hackers, to sort of name it after the people who would be in the community rather
than name it something else. The second decision, which was a little bit more superficial, was
I want my website to look different. And so every other website is light. I'm going to
make mine dark blue just so if you read an article on Indie Hackers and you come back
a second time, you remember that you've been here before.
And the third decision was that I wanted it to be very transparent. I wanted people who
come on the interviews on the website to share their revenue numbers because nobody else
was doing that. And it seemed to me that people really cared. Are these decisions branding
decisions? Are there any other things that I could have done or been thinking about during
that one day I spent on branding? Or should I have spent more days on it?
Yeah, I mean, I think those are all good things that you thought about. I think that those
are obviously have all been really effective. So that's great. I give you kudos for that
because most people don't even get that far. But I don't think branding is like a one and
done thing. I think it's an evolving process. And a brand grows alongside. I mean, it is
one and the same as your business, but it does take on a life of its own. And it does
grow alongside kind of the inner workings and different components of your business.
Because it's kind of the front facing aspect of what you do for us as a business. Our outside
matches are inside. So everything we preach and everything we talk about, we do internally.
So that's really important for us is that the brand is more than just the way you show
up on stage, that it really starts to permeate all parts of your organization. And I'm not
saying anything to criticize any element of your brand because I haven't spent time with
it. But no, I don't even have anything critical to say. I would just say as more of like a
broad statement, the things I would have spent time on is to understand, to really get a
deep understanding to your audience's psyche. What do they need? What do they want to feel?
What do they need to experience? Really tapping into that emotional component of your audience.
Because I think a lot of times people get caught up in demographic data. And that's
important too. I really recognize that it is. But ultimately, as practical and realistic
as we think we all are and pragmatic as business owners and business people is we are very
emotionally driven. So I think really taking time to understand your audience and understanding
what is the message I need to communicate to them? And what is a way I can communicate
that message that will really resonate? And so I think spending more time with kind of
the core elemental message and really understanding what is the way I need to shape that message
and share that message that will really resonate and impact my audience. And also saying and
really understanding that your audience doesn't have to be everyone. You know, who is my die
hard audience? Who are the people I really want to target? Who are the people I'm most
excited to work with so that you can tailor your message and tailor your brand's experience
to those people knowing that you don't have to reach everyone and you really have to just
get in deep with the people who are your ride or dies.
And so I would just encourage, you know, and I would say that not just to you, but just
everyone is really spending time with that foundational stuff, because that is the thing
that you that's the to me, that's the that is the you're laying the bricks that everything
else gets built upon. And I think it's a it's an important step that people are also are
often trying to to do on the back end that they've built this foundation, they built
this structure, and they're trying to give it a new coat of paint as opposed to making
sure that it had really strong support beans to start.
I'm gonna, I'm gonna say something critical about the Indianapolis brand before this episode
is over promise.
Yeah, I love it. I wouldn't be on your podcast if I didn't think you were doing something
so amazing. And I mean, you're a wonderful human being from, from just our conversation
so far. And I love what you're up to. So I'm here because I think you've done an exceptional
job with developing a brand. So yeah, I'm here, I'm in it.
Okay, well, I think everything you talked about in your previous speaking turn is great,
but also tragically easy to ignore. If somebody is a developer, especially, but really anybody
susceptible to this, it's so easy to get bogged down in the details of what your product
does and how it works to get really excited about that kind of stuff to think so much
about the different features you're going to build and all the wireframes you're going
to draw and everything it's going to have and all the bells and whistles, but totally
ignore like the emotional state of your customers and totally ignore what their lives are like
and what their hopes and dreams are and what kind of personalities they have and just neglect
to build any of that into your product. Like you were saying, Ali, like you can't think
about the stuff as an afterthought. It really needs to be part of the foundation of everything
you're building. So if you're in that situation right now, and you're listening to this podcast,
I encourage you to take a step back and stop building for a little bit and think about
who you're serving and what differentiates them from other people in other markets. Ali,
I want to get into your story. So far, I've just been minding you for advice. But let's
go back to when you graduated college. That's a foundational point in a lot of our lives.
Did you know that you wanted to be an entrepreneur? And did you know that you wanted to be a marketer?
No, not at all. I was a psychology major. So when I started college, I went into college
thinking I was going to be a veterinarian. After my first year of college, I quickly
realized that that was not the world I wanted to play in. Even though I've loved animals
my whole life, I grew up with a house pack full of them. I had cats and rabbits and hamsters
and spiders and turtles and frogs and all sorts of wacky stuff. With spiders? I had
a pet spider. Yes, I love all animals, except alligators is the only thing I don't like.
What? Spiders over alligators? Oh, any day. I would sleep in a bed nestled with them to
never have to face an alligator in my life. Gross. That's it. Podcast over. We're done
here. And we're going to cut here. I went into college
thinking I wanted to be a veterinarian, and then I realized that I really loved people.
I just get energy from other people. I'm an extrovert. I really love listening to people.
I really love understanding the nuances of people. I thought, oh, maybe I'll be a therapist.
I switched my major to psychology. I went all the way through my college career at the
University of Michigan thinking I was going to be a therapist. And I got to my very last
semester and realized, holy shit, I do not want to do this. I spent an internship in
an adolescent drug abuse center. And I just realized, wow, this isn't the demographic
I want to work with. I empathize with it. It was such a beautiful experience to be a
part of. But I didn't feel like it tapped into the part of me that wanted to create
or wanted to build. I think I had this desire to better a thing or better a situation. And
I realized that that's not a good way to approach people, is to have this desire to fix it.
And so I realized, oh, wow, then that's probably not the right thing to do.
So anyway, I stayed one more semester to get a second degree. And I ended up getting a
communications degree with a focus in PR. I took either seven or eight classes one semester.
It was brutal, but it was somehow the most organized I'd ever been my entire life. I
had classes from 8 a.m. until 10 p.m. on Tuesdays and Thursdays, and then a Monday night class.
And I banged out a second degree, and I graduated. And when I graduated, I didn't really know
what I wanted to do. I just knew that I wanted to be in a more energizing environment.
So my very first job out of college, I worked with the International Auto Show in Detroit.
So I'm from Detroit. And that was such a popular event and experience that I was like, oh,
maybe it'd be really fun to help plan the auto show. So I got a job at an agency called
Gallen Rice. I was essentially helping to plan the International Auto Show and really
doing like account management. I did that for a few months. And I was like, oh, this
is so boring. It's just logistics. And it's just confirming vendors. And this is not fun
or creative or energizing at all. I felt like I wasn't like using my brain or getting to
add value or ideate or any of these things I started to really realize I really enjoyed.
So without getting into too many twists and turns, I moved to Hawaii for a little while.
And I was trying to figure myself out and find myself for a year in Hawaii. And then
after a year there, I ended up coming back and taking a big kid job. And I worked at
my first consulting firm. And I felt like it was the first time I really got to switch
my brain back on in a really cool way. I got to have problem solved. I got to look at issues
and come up with new, fresh solutions. I got to be strategically creative. I got to do
all these things that I didn't recognize initially. That was such an important part of my personality
or the things I really gravitated toward or things I really liked.
And so I spent about 6 years working at various consulting firms. And then 2 of the principal
and an engagement manager at one of the firms I was at, they left. I was at McKinsey. And
they left and they started a startup in Chicago. And it was when all the subscription box companies
were really getting hot on the market. That was kind of the first influx of box companies
where you were seeing Birchbox and Bulu box and all these companies who were shipping
monthly subscriptions to you. And it was maybe you got a subscription of makeup or you got
a subscription of pet products or snacks. And we were the first to market in the health
and wellness space. And so they brought me on as the VP of engagement.
And I was tasked to develop the branding and marketing for the company. It's developing
the brand's personality, the customer engagement experience, the visual experience. And I think
why they brought me on in that role is because I even though I had worked with them at the
consulting firm, I had a blog, a lifestyle blog that I started. It was just a fun, silly
pet project. And so I used to write a lot. And I often wrote about just everyday life
and I always used humor and it was always fun and silly and playful. And I think they
saw that and thought, Oh, we can kind of smash these two components of her personality together
and develop this weird role that I never thought I'd ever end up in. And so it was like, Oh,
I get to think strategically. And I also get to be really fun and creative. And so it was
the first time I ever had a job prospect or a career prospect that I was like, Oh, wow,
this could be a thing I'm really good at. And I really like and so I spent a year with
them and I loved my role, but it was a pretty toxic environment. We had eight people quit
in a week. It was just bad news bears. And so I went and took a three week trip to India.
This is like the most cliche white girl thing to ever say in the whole world. But I took
a trip to India and I just think I got out of that toxic environment and just around
these like lovely, wonderful, amazing kind people. And it just made me realize that like
I can't go back into that world, but I still want to be in that world just not under someone
else's rule. So I came back and I decided to start my first company. Now that was a
really scary decision because I didn't know what the hell I was doing. I had never ever
entertained being an entrepreneur before. I didn't know where to start. I didn't know
a thing about starting a business. I come from a family of really small time entrepreneurs.
Like everyone in my family are like hairdressers or a florist or they have like these little
small adorable mom and pop type shops, but no one had ever like built a digital business
or built a business in the 2010s. I mean, my family had been doing the same thing for
30 to 40 years. So no one was like coming hot in the scene with all this like new age
advice to give me. And at the same time I was getting married. And so we don't come
from families that are financially well off. We come from very humble beginnings, myself
and my husband. So we had to pay for our whole wedding on our own. It was just a very unstable,
scary time because we had a wedding to plan and we weren't planning something outrageous
or audacious, but we both have big families. And so we wanted to have a beautiful experience
for our whole family. And then I wanted to start this company. And so basically when
I started my company, we had like $0 to our name at that point. And so I just was like,
I have to make this work and I have to figure this out. And the only thing I knew is I knew
I'm a hard ass worker, that I am scrappy, that I will figure out how to DIY my way through
any situation, that I ask a lot of questions and that I will learn all the things I need
to learn in order to make my chances as high as possible to start an effective business.
And so at the time, and Coreline, forgive me if the story is getting really long winded.
Now keep it going. Okay. So at the time, I feel like it was getting really popular to
have digital businesses. I think you were seeing a lot of that remote entrepreneurial
spirit come to life and people doing digital courses and programs and developing content.
And so I knew that I had a skill set for branding and marketing. And I knew that I had a skill
set for creative writing. And I thought, okay, how do I bring those things together? And
I decided to create digital programs and courses. And so there was kind of a myriad of topics
that I moved through. They ranged from self development and personal growth and self esteem,
all the way through branding and marketing. And how do you really develop a business that
people pay attention to?
What were you reading at that time? What was inspiring you? What were you seeing in these
examples of these nomadic types of businesses?
Yeah, I mean, I think initially I was personally interested in personal growth quite a bit.
So my first foray into digital businesses is going to sound so cheesy, but was probably
like a Tony Robbins of seeing, Oh, wow, he has some really cool shit to share. And he's
sharing it in a digital format. That's really cool. He's making money in an automated way.
He's developing this really cool content that people feel really excited by. So I started
to follow him. And I started to quickly follow a lot of digital entrepreneurs, like Seth
Godin or Marie Forleo or Chris Carr or Daniela Port. And they were kind of across a lot of
different industries, but they were really developing coursework and programming. And
there was this kind of formula that was existing of online videos that led into sales pages
that led into programs and courses. And I thought, Yeah, this is all really cool and
sexy. I wonder if I could do the same thing, but do something in a way that was really
fresh or that had a different voice or that talked about something in a different way.
Because I didn't think I was saying anything that was any different than what was out there.
What I thought I could bring to the table was saying it in a way that people hadn't
heard before. So when we're talking about business and branding and develop and personal
development, if those topics can feel really serious, and they can feel really heavy, and
they can be really important topics they want to talk about. And my thought was, what if
I humanize the process? What if I made people smile and laugh? What if my sales page was
unlike anything that they'd seen before? Could that convert and compel people and get people
excited and interested in a different way? Because I believed in the programming I was
developing, I believed in the courses I was creating, it was more so how do I break through
the noise of what's already out there and get people to really get excited about what
I'm doing and build trust and build rapport and all these things? Because I'm a nobody.
This is something I'm starting from scratch. And I'm brand new. And so I use fun and humor.
And I didn't know at the time. At the time, I didn't have the foresight or the thought
of fun and humor, fun sells, humor works. It really wasn't that. That was the thing
I knew and the thing I was good at. And the thing that I thought really was relatable and
really broke down barriers with an audience and really became disarming and really humanized
the process. And I also thought it was a very generous way to approach marketing. That even
if someone didn't spend a dollar with me and even if they never bought a course, at least
I made them smile. At least I made them laugh. At least I made them feel good. And to me,
it was such a value give that I thought that at least I feel good about what I'm putting
out in the world. And so I ended up creating various programs and they were all geared
toward women. And I had over 9,000 people come through my courses from start to finish.
And it was awesome. At the time, I was like, oh my God, I'm doing it. I'm building this
digital nomadic lifestyle and I'm generating income while I sleep and all these things
that I thought were really sexy and cool. And I have integrity in what I'm doing. I
believe in what I'm doing. I'm excited by it. People seem to feel good. They're excited
by their experience. And so that was my first foray into business. And it wasn't always
an uphill climb. There was ups and downs, ups and downs. But once I learned the ropes
and I figured things out, I got to a place I was really proud of.
Give me an example of some of these ropes that you learned. What did it look like to
actually launch a course and to go from getting your very first subscribers all the way to
9,000 people going through your courses?
Yeah. As I reflect back, I think that the lessons I started to learn. I'll share one
big one that I think was huge for me. And I don't know if I could have really verbalized
it back then. But the thing I think I realized that is just to me is the most important thing
in business is to have integrity in what you do. And I saw a lot of people using vulnerability
and in my opinion, contrived authenticity in order to sell their products. And there
was this formula that was just being just spewed all over the internet where it was
like things like, I've never told this story before or the only other person I've ever
shared this with was my husband. Or the one sales trick that I learned that changed everything.
It was as if they were letting you in on a secret, but it was like this weird manipulated
contrived authentic experience. And I didn't like that. And I felt like I could see right
through it and it felt very fake and forced. And I found myself very turned off by that.
And so I felt like the thing that mattered the most to me was to have a lot of integrity.
And in saying like, what do I value? What do I care about? What's the moral fiber running
through everything I do? What is the consistent experience I want people to have with me?
And so I tried to use fun and energizing communication and playing with people instead of trying
to manipulate them or twist them around my finger or tap into their pain points. I didn't
want to go down that rabbit hole. I know that stuff works and I know that it would have
been effective, but I thought, yeah, but that's what they're already getting with everyone
else. And so I want to take a different approach. I want them to feel really good throughout
this sales cycle. I want them to laugh throughout this sales cycle. And so I think that that's
one of the things that I started initially doing it the way everyone else was. And then
I quickly pivoted because it didn't feel good for me. It felt shitty. It felt forced. It
just felt manipulative and I didn't like that experience. And so I think what I realized
is like, oh, there could be a better way to do it. And so when I started to pivot, it
was uncomfortable because I was like, oh shit, this is not something people are telling me
that works. This is not something people are telling me to do. This is not what I'm learning
in these other courses that I'm taking about how to build online businesses. This feels
very rogue. And so there was just, I felt like I was going a bit into the unknown and
it was a bit scary, but I quickly found that the experience felt better for me internally,
which allowed me to enjoy creating and developing programming, which allowed me to talk to people
in a more human, integrated, normal way, which allowed people to trust me more, which allowed
me to sell more ultimately. And so that was just like one hurdle. The other one I think
was a big one is I like to learn how to do everything in my business because I think
it makes me a really well-rounded business owner that I can have an educated conversation
about everything. So I know a little bit about coding, a little bit about accounting, a little
bit about design. I know enough about kind of everything to be dangerous, but I think
for me is because I felt like, well, I could do everything. It led me to believe I should
do everything. So I was really drained a lot. And I was really bogged down because it was
hard for me to justify outsourcing things when I felt like, well, I could do it myself.
Somehow there was like a gold medal and doing it all alone. And that was really draining
emotionally and energetically for me. So that was a big hurdle that I had to learn. And
that was a really long process for me to learn how to let go and learn how to just bring
on awesome, amazing people who are like, that's their thing. They're great at that. Yeah,
sure. I'm good at it. They're great at it. And let them be great at it. And when they're
great at something, it's going to only enhance my business and make me ultimately stronger.
So that was a big hurdle too, is not having to do it all and being okay with that and
not feeling like I was letting myself or my business down because I let go of some things.
I've felt the same way before. It's crazy how much just managing and understanding your
own psychology comes into being a founder where a lot of times the mistakes you make,
it's not like logically difficult to see that you're making that mistake. It's emotionally
difficult to see that like, you know, sometimes as a founder, you're driven by ego. I have
the same thing. I can do everything decently well. I don't really want to believe that
other people can do it as well as I can. And you know, I kind of like getting the credit
for having done everything myself, but that's really an ego based decision and way of going
forward. It's not really what's best for your business or your customers.
Yeah. Can I ask you a question, Kirtland?
Yeah.
Are you familiar with the Enneagram? It's a personality type test.
I've heard of it. I've never taken it.
Okay. Okay. Anyway, I just was wondering if you knew your number because there's nine
different numbers you can be and I'm a three. So I was wondering if you were also, which
tends to be the unhealthiest version of a three is they are a workhorse and they tend
to be a jack of all trades in the worst. It can be a great thing and it can also be a
really, really horrible limiting quality is because they tend to burn out really quick
and because they think they can do everything or that they should do everything. So I was
just wondering if that, because that's a very real quality for me. The healthiest version
of me is I can add value in a lot of different places. The unhealthy version is that I think
I need to do everything. So just wondering.
Yeah, that sounds like me. And to be honest, I think it's not that bad for starting a business.
If you are a first time founder and you look at your business and everything that has to
be done and there's some gaping black box, some part of your business where you just
have no idea how to do it, it can be pretty scary. But if you're a jack of all trades,
or if you at least have the confidence that you can figure out how to do pretty much anything,
then it makes it much easier to take that first step, to be able to do it by yourself
and not have to hire or find a co-founder. And I think it's just easier to get started.
Where it becomes troublesome is exactly what you're talking about, which is when you start
to get one thing, when you're really tired of doing everything yourself, when your business
is growing, you are at a point with your courses that you are basically supporting your entire
lifestyle is very profitable for you. I think you're making six figures, but you were not
really enjoying your life and you were doing way too much. How did you get out of that
situation?
Yeah, that was a tough decision for me because I was looking at this thing that I built and
I wanted to be proud of it because I built it from scratch. And wow, that's so cool.
This thing came out of my brain and my energy and my effort. And so that was a really cool
thing, but I wasn't proud of how I felt anymore. I no longer wanted to be in that world. It
was just, I didn't enjoy the... It started to feel a bit transactional for me by a course,
they go through it on their own and we are kind of communing in these very plotted, if
we have an online meeting or we have a group or these little micro ways of interacting
with my audience. And I just felt like that didn't really energize me. It started to feel
like everyone's doing this shit now. Everyone has an online course, everyone has an online
program. And I started to feel like I was part of a really tapped out saturated market.
And I don't say that to be negative to anyone who is in that world at all. It no longer
felt like it was a world that I felt like I could really continue to create and develop
and build in a way that was internally fulfilling or also that I felt like I was bringing the
most value to my consumer. I probably could have kept doing it and still sustained the
success that I had created and I'm sure it would have dipped at some point. It just didn't
fuel me. What I started to realize is the thing I really liked about it was the ideation
and the building of it and the coming up with the fun creative concepts and coming up with
the programming and figuring out what was my positioning and building all the fun, entertaining
components of it. And then once I finished that, I was just watching it work on its own
and I no longer got to play with it anymore. And I ended up going back to the consulting
world for a year, a little less than a year. And while I was trying to figure myself out,
it's like, what do I want to do in this next phase? And so on the side, I was then doing
some consulting, doing brand strategy for people, helping people develop their brand
personas and start to... How do we creatively market your business and how do we cultivate
a really desirable, attention worthy brand that people really pay attention to and get
excited by and all these things I was doing on the side.
But I just didn't want to do it by myself. I was like, God, I don't want to be a solopreneur
anymore. I don't want to just go back into that space in a different way. And so my best
friend, her name is Lindsay, and she had been a copywriter for 10 years and a comedy writer.
And she had her own copy shop. And so she was doing kind of a different version of what
I was doing. She was like really heavy in the creative, where I was doing part creative,
part brand development. She was getting down and dirty with really fun campaigns and really
cool creative ideas. And we were just both talking about how this thing that we both
love is the thing we like most about it is the fun, enjoyable, playful, entertaining,
exciting version of each of the things we were doing. And we were like, what if we built
an entire agency around this idea that fun sells? What if that was the ethos? What if
we didn't do all the other things that we have been doing historically? And what if
we really focus in on this, the way that we believe is the best way to market and brand
a business? So two and a half years ago, we both pulled the plug on what we were doing.
And we dove headfirst in this idea that fun sells and we built obedient. And I can remember
we were in my kitchen and I have a big blank wall in my kitchen and we had giant post-it
notes and we were ideating a business name and different concepts. And initially what
we were going to do is create online programming and courses teaching this stuff. And then
we're both like, no, that's not the world we want to be in anymore. We don't want to
teach other people how to do this. We want to do this stuff. That's the stuff we love
and we get excited by. So we scrapped that idea on day two or three and we're like, no,
we want to work with other brands and do this for them. That's the fun. That's the secret
sauce. That's the fun part.
That's one of the most interesting things I think about your story, especially in the
context of being on the Andy Hackers podcast where the vast majority of people I talk to
have this path where they are employees and then they become consultants as sort of a
temporary stepping stone to building some sort of scalable product-based business, whether
that's coding an app or building a course, just something you can create once and sell
to infinitely many people. You did the opposite.
I know.
You went that scalable product route. You had a successful business and you decided,
hey, this is not fun for me at all. I would rather just continually do the actual sort
of dirty work day in and day out forever.
Yeah, that's sick, isn't it?
It's sick. I mean, what's your end game? What's driving you?
Well, you know, the interesting thing is in a weird way, I feel like my ideas reach more
people in more ways because I get to work with these amazing brands who have a ton of
reach and they're using our ideas. And we're seeing our ideas reach millions of people
on Instagram or website traffic or billboard campaigns. And so it's in a weird way that
we get to put... I feel like I get to put more of myself out into the world, but through
different channels that I did previously. So I get to really flex my chops in different
personalities, in different industries, in different verticals, in different mediums.
It feels like the world is my oyster now as opposed to being pigeonholed into one thing.
And I think the other thing too is that because we are a brand, an agency built on fun. Fun
is part of everything we do all day, every day. We work with rad clients. We work with...
Our team are the funniest, smartest, most fascinating people I've ever worked with.
I get to be a part of creative ideas and I get to have these wild brainstorm sessions
that I'm literally laughing so hard I'm crying on almost a daily basis. I work with my best
friend. I still work remotely. Our whole team is remote. So I have a ton of flexibility.
I get to laugh for a living. I mean, I truly look at my life now and I know it's not as
automated as it was, but it's way more fulfilling. And it's just every single element is enjoyable.
So it's weird. It's weird. It's not scalable in the way my previous business was, but it's
incredibly fulfilling. However, what I know to be true is that we are working on a lot
of different components of obedience. And so I know that maybe in the near future we'll
create a scalable product or maybe in the near future we've talked about writing a book.
We are launching a podcast in the next few months. And so there's all these other opportunities
to scale and expand and really tap into these things that really excite us. But ultimately,
we get to preach the message of fun and lightheartedness and strategic humor and making brands an enjoyable,
real good experience and just getting to change the landscape in our own little way. So yeah,
I know I'm like a masochist for going, even though it seems like I'm going backward, I
really feel like I've propelled so much further than I was previously.
I just got done recording another episode earlier today and I asked my guest what his
sort of closing advice was for entrepreneurs. And he quoted someone else who said, cliche
or not, the journey is the destination. And whatever it is you're doing right now, that's
the whole point. It's not some end goal that you're going to get to and acclimate to after
a year and a half. It's whatever you're doing right now, you should enjoy it. And it sounds
like with your move to becoming an agency, that's really what you're doing. You enjoy
every day of your life. You enjoy actually working. And if you're doing that, then kudos.
That's a lot better than 99% of people, even people who've struck at rich and billion dollar
companies.
Totally. I fully agree.
So I want to dive into these beginning phases. You talked about you and Lindsay and someone's
apartment sort of drawing up all sorts of plants, what you're going to do, what you're
not going to do. By this point, you've already worked at a startup. You've worked at a big
consulting firm. You've done consulting on your own. You started your own business. You
know quite a lot. Given all that knowledge, how do you approach planning a business and
what's going to go into it? What kinds of decisions you need to make? How did you choose
your own brand? And I asked this with I guess an eye towards a lot of people in the audience
who are completely new to this stuff to figure out what kinds of questions they should be
asking and some of the concrete tactical decisions that you might make to build a successful
company from the get-go.
Yeah. Well, before we even dove into the nitty gritty of business, Lindsay and I, we really
had an amazing series of honest, heart-to-heart, no-bullshit conversations. And it really boiled
down to what were the things we needed to experience as a business owner in order to
feel fulfilled? What is the type of lifestyle we wanted to cultivate? What do we value?
What's important to us? What drives us? What are things that piss us off and trigger us?
What are things that energize us? And we got really clear on all that stuff because I think
we're a little unique in that we were starting a business together and we had an impeccable
relationship and we wanted that to sustain and we wanted that to be able to have longevity
and we wanted to continue our friendship. We didn't want anything to tarnish us. So
I think what we had to do is get really honest about the things that the parts of our personality
that needed to be cultivated, the parts of our personality that needed to be nurtured,
the parts of our personality that we could add value, the qualities we could bring to
the table and the things that we didn't want to do, we didn't like doing that would draw
out the worst parts of us. So we can have that dialogue to start. I know it maybe seems
like a little bit harder to do by yourself, but I definitely think that's a really important
thing. So her and I in particular, because we were starting just the two of us before
we built out a team because we didn't have a team to start, I'm very extroverted. So
I like people. I like to talk to people. I feel very isolated if I'm sitting in my house
working at a laptop all day. So it was really important for me that I lead all of the business
relationships and the client calls and the sales calls and all of those things. And Lindsay
was like, go for it. Hate that shit. Don't want anything to do with it. Lindsay, on the
other hand, is an introvert. And she presents as an extrovert. She's so lovely and warm
and funny. And she's just amazing. But she could sit on her laptop in isolation on a
remote island, never talk to a soul and be like the happiest camper on the planet. So
a lot of the internal stuff, that was her sweet spot. So anyway, so it was really understanding
those parts of ourselves so we could work really well together because I don't know
if you've ever had a business partner, but it is like getting married. And your livelihood,
your emotions, your creativity, your finances, everything gets wrapped up into another person
very quickly. And so for us, we wanted to make sure that that was the foundation. From
there, and feel free to, I can explain anything in more detail, but from there, that was the
set point. So I felt like we really knew each other going into it, but more so than just
knowing each other as friends. It's like really knowing each other is like, what are our biggest
fears and our biggest desires and what drives us and what triggers us? And how do we really
make this a stable foundation?
There was just a post on the Andy Ecker's Forum earlier this week where somebody was
asking, what are the crucial questions you should ask your co-founder before you start?
And no one listed any of those things that you just said.
Oh, wow.
And I think that's all great stuff.
Oh, good. Well, that makes me happy. And yeah, so that was super important. From there, we
started to play around with, okay, now that we know those things about us, what type of
business do we want to layer on top of it? What do we value? And I think for us, the
through line was always fun. The through line was always humor. It's we wanted to build
a brand that felt good internally, that our clients felt super excited about when they're
working with us. And then ultimately, the end product was something that felt good and
fresh and fun and different.
And so Obedient, the the name that why we landed on that is, you know, it's a bit of
tongue in cheek, right? You know, our whole idea is we wanted to not do what everyone
else is doing. We wanted to buck the system. And also being two women, right? It's like,
we're supposed to be good, polite little girls. And that's just neither of our personalities.
And so we thought, okay, well, what, you know, what really embodies that? What is kind of
the most tongue in cheek way to explain that? And so for us, like the term Obedient, when
we wrote that down, we ideated probably 200 names. And when we wrote that down, we're
like, there's nothing else that is even a contender. And it just felt right. It felt
like reflective of who we are, what we, you know, absolutely never wanted to be, in terms
of you know, we do not want to be an Obedient brand, which is why it was so fun to be named
that. It reminds me of I don't know if you know the podcast, Pod Save America, but they're
called Crooked Media. And I and it's like the same idea of like, you know, call yourself
the thing that you absolutely don't want to be. And it's just a really fun way to spin
a business name. But anyway, so that was kind of you know, that's how we started. And so
when we were initially in our initial brainstorm sessions, we really realized we wanted to
work directly with brands, we wanted to work with entrepreneurs, we wanted to work with
business owners, because we thought people could be doing it in a lot more interesting,
exciting, attention worthy, integral way. And we thought we could add a lot of value
to that community. So yeah, and it kind of just spun from there. I mean, we've changed
services and offerings a million times as we've evolved and grown, knowing like what
we're great at and what we you know, the value we can provide and like really honing our
process over the last two and a half years.
So you decide you're going to target brands, you're going to work with them to build better,
funnier, more effective brands. I think one of the most common fears that entrepreneurs
have is sales. People really don't like sales, especially developers building technical businesses.
And the worst, scariest type of sales is enterprise sales. You actually have to talk to someone
at a big company and convince them to buy what you're selling when you're just a small
group of people or maybe just one person. You guys at Obedient have worked with all
sorts of huge companies. You've worked with Dell, you've worked with AT&T. Is enterprise
sales scarier to you? Is it burdensome to you? And if not, what do you know that all
these other indie hackers don't?
So I know I'm probably going to sound like a madwoman, but I love sales. And I've never
thought of it that way. I never really knew I love sales. I just like talking to other
humans. But I think you said something interesting, and I'm going to kind of flip something that
you said in a little bit different way, is when I go into a sales process, and I recommend
this for everyone, I don't think you have to go into a sales process or a sales call
or a sales conversation thinking you have to convince anyone that your product or service,
that they need to like it, they need to want it, they need to buy it, they need to agree
with it. I think you have to convince yourself. Because if you believe in what you do and
you have confidence in what you've created, that you don't feel like you have to sell.
You're not trying to prove anything to yourself. And I think that our egos get in the way of
being good salespeople. Because I think what happens is when we're often going into a sales
process saying, what can you give me? What can I take from you? I want your money. I
want your time. I want your trust. I want your respect. And when you enter that process
with a take mentality, and you're looking for that potential client to fill a need,
you are, I think that there's a lot of fear and anxiety and doubt that comes through.
I think the biggest shift for me is when I go into a potential sales call or a new client
intake conversation, I really try to leave my ego at the door. I don't go into it saying
I have to close them. I go into it saying I want to educate them. I want to get to know
them. I want them to enjoy a conversation with me. I want them to feel heard. I want
them to be made aware of what we're doing. That, to me, is the most transparent, authentic,
integral way to approach a conversation. It's a give. Because I want to give them education.
I want to give them an opportunity to work with us. I want to give them an opportunity
to be proud of their ideas and their brand. I want them to give them an opportunity to
have a nice conversation. And I want to give them a choice. And the choice is they either
work with us, awesome, amazing, great, or it's that they walk away. And that's okay,
too. And so I feel like it's made me enjoy the sales process. I think it's made me effective
in the sales process. And I think it's built really... It's allowed us to build really,
really strong relationships because... And I truly mean this. And I know it might sound
a little bit like bullshit, but my agenda is never what... I really try to make my agenda
never what can I get from you? It's always like, what can I give? And that way I don't
feel let down or deflated if it doesn't work out the way I would hope it does. Yeah. So
that's kind of my tactic. I really feel like it's so cliche, but it's an inside job. If
you don't feel proud of who you are, you don't trust in yourself, you don't trust in your
product, trust in your brand. Rejection is so painful. But I really think rejection is
painful because you're rejecting yourself in the first place. And if you learn how to
not put all that power in someone else's hands and really just have pride in who you are
and what you do, then that whole experience just becomes more enjoyable.
Cliché advice is the best advice, I think. I know. It is, though, right?
It's the stuff that people say over and over again that yet no one listens to because we're
all obsessed with the novel advice. It's stuff we've never heard before because it just feels
so smart and productive when you hear something you've never heard before. But when you hear
something you've heard before, you don't really stop to ask yourself, am I actually
doing that? And usually the answer is no.
Truly. Something else I'll say too is that you may just not be the type of person that
likes to talk to other humans. And that's okay too. I mean, I'm an extrovert. I like
talking to people. Like I said, my business partner would never want the role that I have.
And so I think that's an important thing to check in with yourself and understand about
who you are because you're always going to be trying to fit a square peg into a round
hole if you're forcing yourself to be someone you're not or to enjoy something that you
just inherently don't. I think it's good to stretch yourself and to push your edges, but
maybe just you need someone else to be a part of the sales process or figure out how to
create a sales process that you aren't heavily involved in the equation.
So what do you think is more important for these very first few steps of getting your
business off the ground? If you had to choose one, sales or marketing?
Wow, that's a great question. Well, I think if you don't have something worth talking
about, I think both are going to fall flat. I think they almost live in tandem, but I
honestly believe that to me, and I know some people disagree with me and I totally, that's
okay. I would say marketing. And the reason I would say marketing is because anytime I've
ever gotten off a sales call or anytime I've ever sent out a sales email, anytime I've
ever put up a post that has an action component that I want someone to click or lead them
to a specific action, people are going to engage with elements of my brand as a next
step. They're going to look at my web copy. They're going to look at my social platforms.
They're going to look at my sales pages. They're going to look at my products. And if those
look like shit, you've lost the sale. If those look like they were DIY-ed, people have lost
trust in the quality of your product. If they look like they are long-winded and they're
confusing and people can't really decipher what's the important takeaway or they don't
understand why what you're doing is something they need or why what you're doing is something
that is better than someone else or different than someone else, then I don't even think
you have an opportunity at a sale. So I think the marketing component is important. I don't
think you have to do all marketing straight away, but I think having some foundational
pieces that are really banging, that are really strong.
I always say to people, have a great website. Have, at a minimum, have a phenomenal website
as a starting place because 9 times out of 10, that's going to be the place people go
back to to make a purchase. That is your point of conversion. So at your point of conversion,
to me, that should be the strongest reflection of who you are as a brand, what you believe,
and what you care about what you stand for. So yeah, that would be my... Now those are
my thoughts on it, but feel free to push back.
You guys have a beautiful website. Obedient is one of the first things I thought when
I went to your website. I was like, wow, this is very professionally designed, very well
written, and it did all the things that you said. It improves your standing in my mind
as a potential agency that I might use. A lot of indie hackers are trying to build websites
for themselves for the first time. Most of them are not professional designers, not professional
copywriters. What are some of the bare bones, basic principles they should follow to make
sure their websites work and look good? Do they need to hire a writer? Do they need to
hire a designer? Or can they just get better at these things themselves?
I'm always going to recommend outsourcing things that you're not good at or that is
not your sweet spot or your skill set. When people are designers by trade or creatives
or copywriters by trade, that is their currency. That is a thing that they're known for. That
is a thing that they specialize in. That's the thing that they can knock out of the park
for you. So bring on an expert on your team. I know it means that you have to shell out
some cash upfront. I understand it's an investment. In my opinion, you're going to spend a lot
of time and dollars and energy trying to DIY it. You're going to potentially lose some
potential customers. You are going to potentially not present the best version of your brand
right out the gate. It could plant some seeds in the minds of people who could have been
your consumers that you may not have a second chance with them.
I think that the pros outweigh the cons in terms of, I know it is an investment upfront
and I know that we want to be scrappy and we want to DIY and all those things. But the
value of having a clean, professionally designed, professionally written, really sexy experience
right out the gate is that, to me, people start to take you more seriously right out
the gate. They trust you right out the gate. They are more compelled and inclined to work
with you or buy from you right out the gate. I think people don't think that people are
emotionally reacting to brands, but everyone is emotionally reacting.
Again, like what I said is, no matter how practical or pragmatic you are, when you are
picking up a product off a shelf or you are going to a brand's website or you are engaging
with them on social media, you are making judgment calls. What you don't want someone
to do is say, this person's quality is low. It is confusing. It looks like it was done
out of their mom's basement and it looks like they took no time and effort.
That's why I highly recommend bringing on a company. Again, it doesn't have to be us.
I think we are obviously great at what we do, but bring on an expert who can help create
something that is compelling and cohesive and looks professional. To me, that will alleviate
a lot of headaches down the road and I think get you further ahead in your business quicker
pending all the other behind-the-scenes things are lined up and you have a quality product
and service to offer.
One of the things you mentioned earlier when I was asking you about Indie Hacker's brand
and the decisions I made and trying to get you to critique me and give me some protective
criticism was that brand is not just a one-time flash in the pan thing. It's something that
has to evolve with their business, that's to permeate everything that you do and you
have to keep coming back at it and improving it.
What are some of the ways that you guys have done that with Obedient and what are some
of the triggers that let you know it's time to update your brand?
Oh gosh, I feel like we're updating our brand every week. I think if we ever have a project
and one of us, because Linz and I are still both very involved in every single project
we do. I'm managing all the client relationships. Linz is right in there leading the creative
direction and we're both just super hands-on at this stage in our business.
If we ever feel off, if something feels weird when we're explaining it or it feels confusing
or someone goes, hey, can you explain that or I don't quite get that to us, that is an
immediate... For us, immediately we go, okay, someone is confused or misunderstands us or
has presented feedback or something feels off internally or we didn't enjoy some component
of the product. To us, it says it needs to be evaluated.
Because even if we think things are going swimmingly, if there is one little element
that is slightly off kilter, to us that'll start affecting other components. What we've
always found is that when something feels slightly off and we revisit it, we always
end up changing it. We always end up improving it. We always end up tweaking it. Even if
it hurts our egos at first, even if we got feedback that said, oh hey, this didn't quite
make sense to me. In our head, when we developed it, it made perfect sense. We're like, oh,
that was crystal clear. That couldn't have been explained any better.
Because we sit with that information for five minutes and go, you know what? I could see
how they would think that or that feedback is starting to resonate. We have always done
something with that feedback. We have always improved our process or our output or our
final product in some way. Yeah, I think it's just really doing a lot of emotional check-ins
to make sure that this feels good for everyone involved. And if it doesn't, there is some
value in an off-beat experience that you can extract and hopefully improve your business
from.
So how do you do that if you're running a different company where you're not really
talking to customers that often and you're not getting the sort of feedback where people
tell you that something seems off or they tell you they don't understand something?
Does that mean your brand is fine?
I think you have to ask for it. I think there's always opportunities to engage with your audience
or to get feedback or to get outside perspective. Even with a mentorship or a peer group of
other entrepreneurs, there is always an opportunity for feedback and constructive criticism.
I think people just don't ask for it because they don't want to hear it. When it's your
own business, it can feel like a blow to the ego. It can be really hurtful. It can be really
bothersome because it is often this thing that we've created that has come from the
depths of our soul. It is our baby. And for someone to criticize our baby, we don't want
that. So I think we often avoid criticism because it can sting.
But I think that's where you have to toughen up a little bit and go, okay, I don't have
to look at it as I am flawed or my business is flawed. I can look at it as an opportunity
for improvement, an opportunity for growth, an opportunity to better serve my customer,
an opportunity to better hone my message, whatever that is.
But yeah, it's hard to hear that. It really is. We get feedback too. We are doing creative
work all the time. So clients don't always love our ideas right out the gate. Or sometimes
the ideas we love the most and we know are great, a client might not get it or they might
not agree. And so you just have to be okay with that and push back where you want to
push back, but also pivot when it makes sense.
Yeah, we're back to this topic of ego again and how working too hard to protect your ego
will ultimately result in you building a worse business. Because among other things, it'll
make you more resistant to feedback. And you're right. When you get this feedback, it's coming
from people who really mean the best. And if you listen to them, probably your business
will get better because no one's doing this to insult you and make you feel bad. But damn,
does it hurt when you've worked on something for so long and poured your heart and soul
into it and someone tells you that it's crappy or that it's not good.
Yeah. And sometimes the customer is wrong. I know people don't want to acknowledge that,
but sometimes they don't understand you or they don't get your business. But within every
customer interaction where you disagree with their sentiment or their statement or their
feedback, there is a little hint of truth or a little nugget that you can extract from
that that can help you improve what you do and really who you are. Even if you don't
agree with the way they communicated the message, you don't agree with the feedback specifically,
there is something that you could take value from.
So I talk about this a lot actually, that founders should really be talking to customers
and trying to understand what they're saying and also trying to see the lessons and learnings
behind what their customers say because chances are your customers are not marketing experts,
chances are they're not strategic experts. They know what they want, they know what their
problems are and you can help them solve that and that's valuable, but they're probably
not going to be able to tell you how to run your business.
Given that, how could I as a founder, let's say how could I as a founder of Indie Hackers
talk to my customers and ask them questions that would help improve my brand? What kind
of questions would I even ask?
Yeah, I mean I think it depends on what your process is. Do you have feedback forms on
your website? Do you open community dialogue? Do you have a private forum that you allow
people to express themselves freely? Do you tap a handful of members who are super engaged
or super involved in your brand or product or community that you know really care and
really want the best for you?
I think the medium can vary, but I think one question that I just off the top of my head
that is always of value is, is what you receive different than what you expected in terms
of service, product, customer experience. I think it's always interesting to understand
what were people anticipating or what were people expecting or what did people think
were going to happen versus what did you deliver? I think that's always a really interesting
question and that could yield results in both ways. It could be, oh, you over-delivered.
It was better than I thought or it could be, this is not what I anticipated or this was
quite confusing or it was way more complex or the platform you use, was it easy to navigate
or whatever you find out. Sure, you have to live with that result, but I think that's
a really interesting question that I love. Yeah, that'd be the one that I would throw
out there.
Is what you received different than what you expected? Okay, Andy Hackers listeners, you
heard her. Is what you received listening to this podcast coming to the website different
than what you expected? Email me, courtland at AndyHackers.com. Let me know.
Alie, it has been great talking to you about your story. You've given a ton of advice.
I hope people listening can find a way to incorporate it. I also hope if you're listening
to this, pair this with the previous episode that came out with Daniel Baskin who I think
is a great example of everything that Alie is saying of injecting fun into what you're
doing and really think people could benefit from doing this because too many people are
making the same products, the same message with no real emotional resonance of why I
should care.
Alie, thanks again for coming on the show. Can you tell listeners where they can go to
learn more about what you're up to at Obedient? What's going on in your personal life? Can
you share that online as well? And maybe I'll then get in contact with you if they want
to ask you a question or engage your services.
Yeah, of course. Well, first of all, thank you so much for having me. You are a gem.
So this has been wonderful. You can find me or you can find our agency, ObedientAgency.com.
The main email is hi at ObedientAgency.com and then anywhere on the interwebs at ObedientAgency.
Instagram is where we're the most active. In terms of me personally, you can find me
anywhere as Alie LaFever. And I know you may be shocked to hear, but I'm not on social
media a ton. I'm not a big consumer of social media. I know I just don't get the energy
from it like some people do. I know that's so bad to admit. I follow some brands that
I love and I follow, all I really follow are very silly brands, baby animal accounts and
office memes. Like that's it. That's all I look at on social media. And I don't post
a ton, but when I do, it's often very ridiculous and silly and just elements of my life.
As long as we're not baby spiders, it's okay in my book.
Yeah. Yeah. We'll leave those out.
All right. Well, thank you so much, Alie. I'll talk to you later.
Thank you.
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scenes strategies for how they grew their products from nothing. As always, thanks so
much for listening and I'll see you next time.