What's up, everybody? This is Cortland from IndieHackers.com, and you're listening to
the IndieHackers podcast. On this show, I talked to the founders of profitable internet businesses,
and I try to get a sense of what it's like to be in their shoes. How did they get to where they
are today? How did they make decisions, both in their companies and in their personal lives,
and what exactly makes their businesses tick? And the goal here, as always, is so that the
rest of us can learn from their examples and go on to build our own profitable internet businesses.
Today is a special episode. I have two guests who've been on the show before. Ben Tossall is
back from MakerPad, and Sahil Lavingia, the CEO of Gumroad, is also back. Sahil Ben,
welcome back to the podcast. Thanks for having us. Thanks for having me.
So the three of us are gathered here today to discuss the no code movement. Sahil,
you are an early engineer at Pinterest. You built Gumroad by coding it and hiring engineers
to help you code it. So obviously, you're going to represent the programmer's voice in this
discussion. Ben, you are not a developer, and your company MakerPad helps others like you
learn to build and operate businesses without needing to code. So you really are riding the
wave of the no code movement. I think that makes you the perfect person to explain. Ben,
what is no code? And why does it matter? Well, for me, no code is just being able to build
something, a solution to your problem, whether it's like a small tool to help you do your podcast
now just did a one of the guys just did a tutorial on automating the episode link to guests for them
after the podcast, or whether it's like a big thing like how to build a Gumroad Patreon clone
without code, which we did last week. And I was not intentional for this podcast, but
it sounds like somebody who's coming for you, Sahil.
It could be a range of things. It's not needing to be technical and not using the I can't
code excuse as a barrier to build anything. But yeah, it'd be interesting to see how this
conversation goes in terms of it seems that there's a big one versus other type discussion
on the internet. It feels like you're either in one camp or the other. I don't think that's
quite how it is, but we'll see.
Well, this being a debate, that's probably exactly what we're going to do is draw a line
down the middle and duke it out. It's funny to look at the history of no code. I've been
making websites since I was a kid in the 90s. And even back then, there were a lot of no
code tools around that help people put together websites without writing any code. Sahil,
you learned to code well over a decade ago. Do you think there's any real difference in
the no code tools of the past versus the ones that we're seeing today?
Yeah, I mean, the first websites I built were using, I guess, no code tools, like Dreamweaver.
I don't know if the audience is familiar with Dreamweaver, but back in the day, when everyone
used tables to design stuff on the internet and a billion images because browsers couldn't
really render anything natively, rounded corners and drop shadows and all these things. So
I'm very, I guess, yeah, I never sort of wizzy-weig, I guess, was what it was called back then.
Yeah, what you see is on Git and drag and drop website builders and that kind of stuff.
What you see is what you get. But yeah, so I guess, yeah, Dreamweaver back in the day,
now I don't, I think it's gone. And then I moved to WordPress and started building all
my websites on WordPress, which you can argue is sort of halfway, but no code tool, right?
It takes care of a lot of stuff for you. But if you want to do anything super custom on
your themes or something like that, you have to finagle around in PHP.
It's like a low code tool.
It's a low code tool.
Yeah.
And then transition completely to just building my own stuff from scratch, or, you know, using
a framework like Ruby, Rails, or Django or something to build stuff, but taking care
of all the app development in the house.
So you really took a no code approach to learning how to code. First, you started with Dreamweaver
and then you moved on to WordPress and eventually writing your own code from scratch, basically.
And I think the fact that this all happened so long ago really highlights the fact that
these no code tools have been out forever. They've been out for decades. And yet there's
never been any sort of groundswell. There's never been any sort of transition where suddenly
developers don't have jobs, where suddenly most companies are the best companies and
startups are all built without code.
Ben, your company MakerPad is really a bet on the current no code movement and the idea
that it might turn into something big. Why is now the time? Why is this going to be bigger
today than it ever has been in the past?
Well, I just think the tools are obviously getting hugely better. And it's also sort
of how everyone seems to be wanting to work. Everyone wants to build their own thing, which
Legion from Andreessen posted something about the passion economy recently, that was like,
if you want to start a niche newsletter that you sort of get people to pay for so that
that's like a little side project or whatever it is, you can do that on Substack, or you
could build that with other tools and manage it yourself.
I think these weren't necessarily as easy, maybe back in the day with Dreamweaver and
all that sort of stuff. I don't know. I just missed all that stuff. I wasn't technical
basically enough to pay attention to any sort of tech stuff until it was a bit late, which
is why I was probably looking at tools to help me skip the curve a bit and almost cheat
my way to get the end result that I was thinking of.
But I think there's a big change in what people think of as startups, especially with this,
the whole indie hackers movement, which obviously you're familiar with is there's just tons
of people building smaller businesses, whatever way they want, and making a living from it.
If you can make 300 grand a year from having a website up that uses no code, to me that
sounds like a phenomenal business if there's just one person running it. I think that's
what more and more people will start looking into and starting to do.
I think, well, even Saheel's Gumroad empowers those sorts of people too. It's definitely
a huge, huge inflection point in that sense. I think the no code tools help those people
along the way.
Yeah, I think it depends on how you measure growth. It's unlikely, in my view, that you'll
see a billion dollar startup that doesn't have a code base on GitHub or GitLab or something
in the next five to 10 years. But I think you'll see a huge amount of newsletters, journalists,
educators, teachers, writers, filmmakers, going more and more direct to consumer. These
people were never technical. They're some of actually the least technical people that
I know are creative people, which is kind of surprising to me or was. But those people
make six figures a year, and there might be hundreds of thousands of those people. Will
they cross the threshold into making $15 million a year? I don't think so, not with no code.
It depends on what you want. It depends on do you want to build the next stripe, which
frankly, it will be one more of, maybe. There's just not that many opportunities to do that,
then yeah, you don't need to.
I would say the other point I have is I like the idea of being able to choose no code instead
of being forced to do it. I like the idea that if I want to, I can understand what's going
on under the hood if I need to versus be constrained potentially by having to take it to a mechanic.
If we use a low code or no code tool that doesn't do what we need or just increases
their pricing by a ton or something like that, it's just risky potentially to build a business
like that.
Having the flexibility, for example, we use Circle for our integration testing. We could
do all that stuff in-house. We could set up a little CI server and stuff like that, but
we choose not to, but they just increase their pricing. That's a decision that we might make.
It used to be 300, now it's 1200 a month. Is it worth it? But at least we can have that
conversation whereas if we were like, we can't do that. That's a $900 a month cost to not
being able to do that.
I've interviewed dozens of founders on the Andy Akers podcast who are non-technical.
They don't know how to code, but they've still built wildly profitable businesses. I think
one of the most common patterns I've seen from these non-technical founders is that
they still work with developers. A lot of them found a way to partner with a developer
as a co-founder or to hire developers for cheap or find creative ways to work with coders.
Very few of them built their businesses entirely on no-code tools. Ben, are you seeing any
companies that are built entirely on no-code tools today that have been able to reach a
substantial size?
This is one, I guess this goes towards the scaling question and tons of people ask this.
Amanda School was built basically on no-code tools. It was built with Airtable, Slack,
Zoom, and Notion. At Makepad, we've got one of the guys from Amanda School who's been
able to tell us how they've been able to build certain things without code. At this point
now, it is just starting to break. I think they've really pushed where these tools can
go, which is fair enough. I think they're, what, 150 million in series B or something
with it, and then they've got thousands of students all working together every single
day on these tools. That really is pushing the limit.
They're pretty big.
Yeah. I think that's fair enough to think of at this current point. You can literally
take it that far. You can get to that point if you made a good enough business. I don't
know why so many people worry about that stage when maybe you get to $10 first, get to $100,
get to $1,000. I think everyone worries about the, what's my Airbnb version of this?
What does this look like when you're probably not going to get there? That's what happened,
I think, with me gravitating towards no code was initially I thought I had to build something
that was, it's got to be Airbnb start. It's got to be, you have a co-founder who's technical
or you learned code and you build this massive thing. That's just how startups are. That's
the world of startups. Through the last few years of the indie hacker movement and everyone
seeing different things, you can just do your own path. Like we were talking about before,
we started recording this, there is no right answer. The ones you read about are the outliers
and the exceptions. Don't worry about the hugely successful version of your own product
when you haven't even started building anything yet because that's probably a long, long way
off.
I think that's reasonable. For me, I built Gumroad in a weekend with code. It probably
would have potentially taken me longer. Probably, that was 2011. Who knows if it was even possible
to build that with no code back in the day, nine years ago, eight years ago. But even
if it was possible, I think it was faster for me to build Gumroad with code than read
maker pad for hours and hours. I know because I get into the rabbit hole. I'm like, I don't
need to learn. I don't need to build anything. I can just watch other people build stuff.
This is really cool.
I guess the meta point is it's easy to be distracted, I think, by no code potentially
where you might actually solve the problem faster. I guess that's a fear that I have
is that people that could learn how to code with – it's like a one marshmallow now,
two marshmallows later sort of thing, delay gratification, where maybe no code is pushing
people to get the one marshmallow now, whereas if they just invested two weeks, three weeks,
they could get two marshmallows later. I agree that it is unwise to spend a ton of time thinking
about problems that don't matter and statistically will not be relevant to you. I think the idea
of potentially building, let's say, Gumroad with no code, launching it, seeing how well
it does, and then deciding, okay, this is like – we have certain aspirations that
require us to rewrite the whole thing. We actually did rewrite the whole thing from
Python to Ruby. Feasibly, we basically built the app again. We thought it would be easier
to hire and our first engineer was a Ruby developer.
That's actually pretty common. I've talked to so many founders who built a V1 of their
app and especially founders who outsourced that development to, I don't know, some sort
of dev shop in Eastern Europe or something. It turns out that that gets them to the starting
line and they're able to get their first set of users, but then their app crashes or
it's crappy or they need to rewrite the entire thing from scratch, which I think actually
speaks to Ben's point, which is that maybe that first version doesn't need to be in
code. Maybe you could have done it faster if you use no code tools, got something out
there to test the market, validate that your ID is a good one that people want to sign
up and then since people who write apps in code often rewrite them anyway, it's not
that difficult for you to then think about using a code-based solution or sticking with
your no code solution.
I feel like I just scored an own goal.
Yeah, I think, but it's still like the point you made was for you, the quickest way to
do something and the most effective way to do it was to code something. Like for me,
that's definitely not the quickest or most efficient way to do it. And I think if that's
your tool, that's the way your brain works or you'd like doing it that way, then that's
absolutely fine. I think there is a way to build something Gumroad-esque or Patreon-esque
without code, but yeah, how far is that going to get you compared to what the Gumroad product
book's on today? Nothing like it, I imagine. Hopefully.
Yeah, well, yeah, for your sake, I guess.
One of the common themes here is that no matter what kind of company you want to build, if
you're coming in as a founder and a creator, you're coming in with a lot of background
knowledge. So in Sawhill's case, you're able to launch Gumroad in a weekend, sure, but
really you learned to code for years before that. And so it wasn't really just a weekend
that it took you to get Gumroad off the ground. That was really based on all of this other
knowledge you had accumulated throughout your life.
And Ben, the same is actually true for you as well. You're building without code, you
were able to build MakerPad without code, you were able to put out all these tutorials,
teaching others to build apps and businesses without code, but you couldn't have done that
if you didn't spend all the time learning the ins and outs of these different no-code
tools and the landscape and which tools are better or worse for different jobs.
So we already talked about Sawhill's path to becoming a developer. Ben, what does your
path look like to becoming a no-code master and how long can someone expect it to take
for them to learn how to use these no-code tools effectively?
Yeah, I think mine was completely unintentional. Like I said, I felt like I was a bit behind
with how I didn't jump on the code wagon early enough and I was lucky enough to get a job
at product town, which meant I was surrounded by people making things every day, which lights
a fire under your belly to think, I've got to do something, I want to do something here,
I need to figure out how I can do this. And then I was around at product time when things
like Webflow and Bubble were launching. So I got to see that and thought, wait, I could
use this to build something. And then it would just ignite that Maker, whatever you want
to call it, just like I wanted to think around and play with things. And then from there,
I just never stopped. And I assume it would be the exact same thing if you got to a point
that those hours I was just spent on product and learning things, trying stuff out, if
you're doing that just as, okay, I'm going through some code basics, I can now launch
this thing and build this thing, you then start tinkering more and pushing it more with
the code thing. So I think those avenues are very similar. And I definitely tried to code
a few times, but I just kept on getting blocked and thinking, okay, this next video doesn't
work because the last thing I did just broke. So now I'm stuck. And I can't, I don't know
what to do. So I'm just going to give up. Whereas with a no code thing, I always somehow managed
to troubleshoot my own problems. I just figured it out. It was just an easier visual thing
for me to be able to think, okay, I know how I can figure this thing out. Whereas with
code, I was literally just copying whatever text was on the screen. If it didn't come
out right, I thought, fuck it, I'm not, I'm not for coding. So that's why I'm back to
the drawing board. Yeah, so I was just kept on going down that path. And it just happened
over a number of years then. And I didn't really realize that I was building a foundation
for building a business without code, teaching others how to do it. It's just, I kept on
thinking, well, I want to build this type of thing. And then figuring out I can build
something that looks like this type of thing. And then people just kept on asking me how
are you doing that?
Do you think there needs to be a Lambda school for no code? Like a curriculum dedicated to
teaching people how to learn these no code tools? And if so, how much of an investment
do you think it'll take? Because it can easily take a year to become a competent developer
who can build your own web app. How much time do I really need to tinker with no code tools
before I'm competent enough to start building real businesses off the back of my skills?
I do think it just completely depends. Because so many tools are just so many different types
of things. And again, like Integromat works differently to Zapier. But I like Zapier.
We work with them and I just happen to fall down the Zapier route that means I use Zapier
for basically everything. Whereas Integromat, I could just as easily sort of swap that out
on many of these occasions. But yeah, for whatever reason, I'm on the Zapier boat and
we love working with them. We use them on basically everything.
So the curriculum part is interesting though. And I think we at Makerpad are looking at
this because it just seems like an obvious thing that people are always saying, what
about Lambda School for this? So it's something we're looking at, but it's nothing we've figured
out yet, to be honest. And I think there's so many different options for what would that
curriculum look like? Is it the case of we do a lot of different verticals? Like, how
do you create a podcast? Or how do you be a podcaster without needing to be technical?
So I think there's opportunity there, which is what we're currently sort of tinkering
with inside.
Saha, what's your take on all of this learning? You mentioned earlier that it might be a one
or two marshmallow situation and that maybe there's more benefits to be reaped in the
long term if you spend your time learning to code instead of learning these no-code
tools. Why do you say that?
I think I've sort of historically treated code as a rung above no-code on sort of this linear
ladder. And I think this idea, just like I could build Gumroad using code in a weekend,
I don't think actually today I could build Gumroad in this same period of time using
no-code tools. So sort of my argument that you should be able to choose code as an argument
for code should also, I assume, apply to no-code then, right? I'm not competent enough in no-code.
Don't understand it enough. Don't understand the glue. So much of coding is not coding.
It's gluing things from Stack Overflow together, fixing bugs and hoping that you Google for
a comment in GitHub that has 60,000 upvotes and you're like, yes, this is the thing that's
going to solve my problem. So Ben, that does not go away.
I think no-code, I guess, to me, it almost feels like how you describe code is how I
feel about no-code, where I don't really understand it. I don't know even the limits of it potentially.
I don't know how the things work together and how the ecosystem is, whereas if someone
was like, hey, I'm starting a podcast, I would very quickly be able to build a website, RSS
feed, some backend tools to allow for publishing of content, automated stuff to go to Twitter,
etc. And I could do that with probably a really simple Ruby app or something like that on
Heroku is probably what I'd use. I could not do that with no-code and maybe that's sort
of a sign that I should.
I would say one argument for code is that there is this system that has been around
for a long time, so you can sort of ballpark yourself in terms of like, can I do certain
things? Am I getting better at the things that I need to get better at in order to make
a full-time living doing this? Whereas I think with no-code, it seems like you could build
something that looks really great and really powerful way faster, but then what's next?
You can get to the end really fast, but then maybe there's not something beyond that. Will
you just hit a limit where you bubble or glide a web flow, like can't do what you want? And
then you're kind of screwed, you just sit around emailing their support every month being
like, hey, it'd be really great.
I know with Gumroad, we get people, creators that have asked for the same feature for years
and we're like, sorry, it's just not a priority for us. And it would be cool, I assume, if
they could fork Gumroad and then sort of build their own, their feature they need for themselves.
And that's where we want to get to eventually.
So I'd say that's an argument for code. It's just older, so you have more context and more
resources and more search results in Google if you run into a problem that you need solved.
I also wonder how you hire people in a no-code. If you're building a startup with no-code,
you have a bunch of... Is it just like, oh, the scale of a single person is so large now
with no-code that you have one or two people in an organization that would have 15 engineers
in it 10 years ago? Or do you end up with a place where you have 15, 20 no-code people?
How do those people work together? How do you have separation of concerns? With code,
it's kind of easy, right? You have the back end, you have the front end people with low
code or no code. What does that look like? How do you have different departments in a
no-code environment?
Well, Ben, you're actually doing this at MakerPad.
Yeah, all my current contractors are no-code people also. And one is operations, one is
tutorials. And we work in the same tools, Notion and Airtable and Zapier. But yeah,
you are right. And I think it was interesting what you said about... It's much about learning
how to put these things together, figuring out what went wrong, how to fix the bugs.
It's actually the exact same type of process in no-code. So that's why I keep on saying
that we're on the same path of... Or parallel paths, rather, to those things. And it's still
a similar way to figure things out. But like you said, code has been around for a much
longer time. And these tools, Glide and Webflow, et cetera, are becoming a long way in there.
They are building new things really quickly and seeing, luckily, how people in MakerPad
or the no-code community are trying to build things, which then helps them move their roadmaps
or prioritize things over other things. I know that Webflow, especially this year, has
really clung on to the no-code movement and talked about no-code. They've got the no-code
conference this next week. And yeah, it seems like that's a valuable piece that they're
trying to build towards. And I think with hiring people, I think it's more like one
of the things you're trying to get done. So we need marketing systems and we need things
for marketing, social, and content, and all that sort of stuff. You can easily have people
who are no-coders go in and create these systems, but it depends on what tools you will work
on as a business. If you've got a ton of code-related stuff with in-app events and all this sort
of stuff happening with code and you've got to read all that, then you can only get so
far with some no-coders. But I think that it's going to be more and more people being
able to build their own mini-tools as no-coders to say, oh, I could monitor our Reddit comments
and any time our company or podcasting is mentioned on Reddit, we can have that come
into a Google Sheet. And then once that goes into a Google Sheet, that gets posted on Slack
and then I can one-click this one thing and then we send this response or whatever it
is. It's like those types of things would have previously been done with code and those
are now becoming way more accessible to people who don't know how to code or don't even need
to because maybe that is the quicker way to build that thing.
Yeah. I think a lot of those services, especially internal tools, things around marketing and
growth and BD and sales, all of those things should get out of the code base. And that's
actually something at Gumroad that we've been really working on is basically taking stock
of all the things in our code base that aren't fundamental to Gumroad as an app, as a product.
For example, if someone signs up with an at nytimes.com email address, we might want to
email them and say, hey, it's your number of Twitter followers or something, we might
want that to show up in Slack. And that's currently tons of different Ruby worker processes
that run on every user and between 50 and 100 lines of code each.
And I think it's great to basically delete all that stuff, delete all of it and move
it to an external app, a no code tool. One thing, as I'm thinking about, we've retired
a content person. And she's working on creating a Facebook group for all Gumroad creators
that have made over $1,000. And, you know, for example, you know, she can't a coach who
doesn't know SQL. And so she has to basically ask someone on the engineering team, in this
case myself to sort of give her a list of emails of everybody that's made over $1,000
on on Gumroad, it takes me five minutes because I know SQL, I can do a simple join on users
and purchases and all these things. How what's the answer to that in the sort of the no code
ecosystem if if we you know, if we want to get sort of, you know, I know there are certain
sort of tools to get general data. But if I want something very specific, like how much
volume has comics done on Gumroad in the last 30 days was another query that I wanted to
do recently. Knowing SQL is sort of, to my knowledge, the only real way to do that.
Yeah, I think there's there's tools like clay or retool, which have like, some ways that
you can as a developer and non developer work together in the same tool. So if there was
something you needed to link up to say, Okay, this is where all your data will come from.
Then that goes to the no code in this scenario, where they can just run those queries and
do those things. There's also think tools like standard library, which again, similar,
there's lots of these that are bridging the gap between the two, which means that it doesn't
have to be one or the other. And then almost, it becomes the no coder does these queries
or figures these things out and then recognizes the pattern for Okay, I know how to do that
on designers or whatever it is the next the next thing to evaluate. So then they pick
up smaller bits of how do I manipulate this query or this code stuff, like tiny bits at
a time, which also then may help them want to figure out that they want to learn to code,
which is actually an interesting pattern of no coders is this actually might be the best
and like maybe strongest way for someone to figure out they actually do want to learn
to code, they haven't like, just in the first three modules on code Academy, and now they're
still getting stuck every time, they're more thinking, well, I built this thing, and then
I wanted to do these things. And actually, yeah, maybe if I learn to code, I can do these
and I know I want to manipulate data and work with data and in these sorts of ways. And
that's where I want to go with my career, definitely sort of could help with with both
of those paths.
This is interesting, because I grapple with this entity hackers, the entire website is
built using code that I wrote myself. But everybody that I work with is not a developer,
they don't know how to write code, they're not familiar with our code base, or they have
other responsibilities. And so what I find myself doing is building tools for them, Ben,
you mentioned retool, I've got a ton of retools set up to let you do things without using
code.
So for example, you can deploy an episode of the anti hackers podcast and take it live
on the website, by filling out a form, you can change the title, you can change the release
date, etc, all about writing code. Whereas before, that was a process I did myself using
code. And if I look at gum road, I think gum road similar to any hackers, it's all built
using code of style. If you want to hire some no coders to bring them in, you really need
to build some tools just like I have. Whereas maker pad was built without using any code
from the get go. It's all built on no code tools. So Ben wouldn't have to do any extra
work to bring on some no coders.
Yeah, I mean, I think one of the really powerful things about building on code to which I miss
when I leave sort of the code sphere of influence is get inversion control and sort of this
very clear log of what's happening in terms of security in terms of feedback, you know,
in terms of making sure that the only certain quality of code gets through. What I would
love to see more broadly is that apply to other things. For example, a notion I would
love the idea of pull requests and merges and merge conflicts and comments within just
a document setting, because I think that's something I really struggle with, like someone
can go notion and edit a bunch of stuff. And there's no real great way to sort of say this
stuff you can't edit or it has to be approved before it's sort of merged into the master.
The idea of forks and branches, I think are that come from code typically are just phenomenal
ways to think about really building anything like I when I write when I when I do other
things, I sort of think of that forking and merging metaphor all the time. So I think
that's another thing about code that's really great is it gives you access to some of these
paradigms, conditional data structures, algorithms that you might be able to use in daily life
that outside of code that are just interesting concepts that you might not get in a no code
setting.
It's funny, we're sort of unearthing some good startup ideas here, there's pretty much
all the things you do using code, people who are using these no code tools are gonna want
to do right the fact that we have tools like get that are super powerful, and they're pretty
much a staple of every single code base. And the fact that that's missing from the no code
ecosystem makes it not only hard to adopt no code tools, but also means that there's
an opportunity to build something there that could be useful for lots of people in the
future.
But it's also kind of ironic to know that these tools will almost certainly be built
by people using code.
Yeah, it's kind of ironic in a way, right? Where like, I was thinking about this today
this morning, like some of the most important companies in the no code movement are one,
you know, built using code, and then two, typically, because they're building something
that needs to be quite complex, they raise a ton of venture capital. And so you have
this little ethos, I think a little bit where no code seems to be more about bootstrapping
building a business that can sustain you and your lifestyle and you know, a community that
you care about not going for like a billion dollar exit. But then to do that, you basically
have to start using all these tools that are unprofitable won't be profitable for a long
time will likely get folded up into Facebook, Google, Apple, or die. And that's sort of
another interesting sort of dilemma, I think that the no code is similar to similar to
crypto actually, I think, where like you have all this really great enthusiasm on like the
app layer level. But then the sort of the very few companies that are really smart enough
large enough, ambitious enough and have the money to spend on on people that sort of can
do the deep level thinking on a lot of these things and architecture. I don't know, it's
just an interesting sort of weird kind of dichotomy.
Yeah, the infrastructure level is usually pretty complex and requires code. Nobody's
building website builders without code, for example.
One thing I would say about you said about version control, we actually have a version
of that in MegaPad. So in our table base, when we get any stories submitted, if I go
and edit that, it'll go on Slack and say Ben edited this and change it from that to this.
So there's some things there. So maybe we should do some more tutorials around how you
do version control and things like that with without code.
That's pretty cool. Let's talk more about this because I think for somebody like Sahel
or me, it's pretty easy for us to misjudge the limits of no code. But Ben, you have a
better perspective than we do. What are some things that we might not guess you could build
without code that you actually can?
Yeah, there must be a ton. I mean, we've got over like 100 tutorials now on MegaPad, which
is crazy. I'm trying to think of all the things we've built. We've built, like I said, the
Patreon clone, which was recent. There's things like Instagram type clones, Airbnb clones and
things like that, which these are the more, I mean, I think there's two avenues. One is
what's like interesting, what's going to grab people's attention, which are these bigger
sort of Airbnb style things that are like, oh, wow, I never thought I could build that
without code. Like I built an Airbnb app on Glide. And it just uses one Google Sheet and
it's got a host app and a user app. And that can work fully work like fully. You can sign
up as a host, add your properties, add ratings, all that sort of stuff. We've built a cameo
clone on Glide as well, again, with sort of a celebrity side app and the user app where
you can pay for a video, send a video and all that sort of stuff. So there's lots of
opportunities, which I think we've done quite a few of recently to sort of gauge people's
interest and sort of say, these are the possibilities right now. And these are like cool things
we're pushing these tools to do. But I think there's a huge opportunity, especially for
us to build the more useful things that people can actually say, okay, actually, that would
really help my day-to-day workflow, or I can actually use that. And that's like not, because
I mean, the amount of people who are going to go and build an Instagram clone, a cameo
clone or whatever, it's not super high. And like you said, these sort of people may not
have an app in an answer time. It might just be a, had this idea for cameo for celebrity
animals and it just doesn't go anywhere and that sort of thing. But whereas if you can
sort of get into, we came to either of you guys and said, okay, what are the things that
you're having to build tools for yourself to connect developers and non-developers? Where
are the gaps there? And what are these automations that you think should be done and automated,
but maybe shouldn't be done without code? Can we build them for you? Can we do tutorials
around those and that sort of thing? And what does that look like? I think that'd be the
sort of part of the next part of what we're doing is finding real business use cases of
how do we ingrain this a bit more into the professional life rather than, oh, cool, you
can build this Airbnb clone. And then it was like, oh, well, that's pretty cool. But is
it useful? I don't know.
I almost take the opposite stance where I think there's there because people kind of
know that no code can do a lot of that useful day-to-day, automate the boring stuff sort
of stuff. A lot of the questions that we've been talking about are like, well, can no
code do that? Can it get all the way to an Airbnb or an Uber or a Cameo? And I think
even though there's such a focus on, well, no one is going to do it. There's very few
opportunities to do that. I think people can't help but sort of want to think like that.
Well, if this works all the way through, will I get even though that's a thing that 1% of
the time will actually happen, being able to answer that question.
For example, if there's a Cameo with no code that is, let's say, just way more affordable
to celebrities, they take a lot less of a fee because they don't need hundreds of engineers,
they haven't raised any VC because they have this super lean, mean team that's all built
on no code. And then Cameo goes out of business because to me, that sells the story of no
code so effectively because the sort of cynic in me says, well, if that's possible, if you
can build Airbnb, Uber, Cameo is a great example. WeWork maybe is another. You have these companies
that are raising hundreds of millions of dollars building teams of thousands of engineers in
San Francisco, paying each person $200,000, $300,000 a year.
If there is a case for no code to be able to basically wipe the floor with some of these
companies because you can basically build Uber except instead of taking 20%, you take
1%. The economic incentive for that is so large. It's like, well, why hasn't that happened
yet? If it is possible to build Cameo, you still need to do the growth, the sales, the
marketing, the content, all that stuff, but the actual sort of $10, $20 million a year
that they're burning.
Patreon is a great example. Patreon is earning between $30 and $40 million a year on their
staff and office and everything like that on operational expenses because they have
170 people. To do that, they've raised $170 million. Creators are rightfully concerned
about that because that's a huge hole to climb out of. If you're Patreon and if you're creator
using Patreon, your business might rely on it, which is why we're building actually a
competitor. But I think you can stretch it even further.
Gumroad will be far more affordable because we're profitable now. We're not looking to
be a rocket ship anymore. We don't have $170 million in preferences to get out of. But
is there an even more leaner version of Gumroad that is like one person in the middle of nowhere
that built a Patreon clone and is barging? Maybe it's free. Maybe it's like a dollar
a month. There's something insane. It's someone's side project. A creator, I think, would find
a huge amount of appeal in that. They're incredibly price-sensitive.
It's kind of like most basketball players would always be Steph Curry, but the idea
that you might be is so motivating to people. The idea that I could have been Mark Zuckerberg
was so motivating to me as a child to learn all these things, even though it's almost
delusional, really, to believe that you will be that. But sometimes you need that. You
need that crazy carrot on a stick to get you even past the first three or four steps.
You might realize down the line, like I did, actually, that's not that appealing to me
at all. But it was important to make the investment.
I see this in prejudice all the time where people are like, what's the point in trying?
Because even if I get all the way better than most people ever will, I can't get to the
top because there's this artificial ceiling there. And that motivates people from even
getting to step two or three or four. And so I think showing people you can build this
thing that you might not even want to build, but just to show you that it's possible. Here's
a billion dollar startup that's run by one dude in Croatia that is Uber, but decentralized
and it charges drivers $1 a ride flat.
Yeah. And I think when Meetup changed their model recently, so we did a Meetup clone based
from that. We just sort of put a pencil and just did that without code. Yeah, I agree
that that is always going to be a part of it. You do need to have this is what you can
build. And because so many people's ideas, if they come to me and say, how do I build
this type of thing without code? And I say, well, how does it work? Most of the time it's
like a marketplace, right? It looks like Uber. It looks like Airbnb or Cameo. It looks like
the same sort of thing. And I just say, go and look at these tutorials. So yeah, I think
it does use a lot of that. But I think there is both things to look into. So it'd be interesting
to see how it grows.
I can attest to this too, because IndieHackers is a huge part of IndieHackers, it's inspiration.
And what inspires people to start a company? And a lot of it is this sort of aim for the
stars. You see your heroes who have these outlandish stories that are just crushing
it and you want to be them. And even if you aim that high and you land on the moon, as
a cliche goes, you're still on the moon. It's still a pretty good place for you to have
gotten, but you wouldn't have gotten there if you didn't think you could make it to the
stars.
And even more about building apps and websites without code than probably anybody, I wonder
what the limits are. If I wanted to build a Cameo or an Airbnb without code tools, at
what point are things going to break down? Is it going to be the lack of user authentication
and signup? Is it going to be the fact that there aren't great no-code tools for mobile?
Is it going to be that I can't scale the database? What is it that breaks down eventually, if
anything?
Well, I mean, I've never pushed an app to that point. And I don't think many people
have. I think that's what I said with Lambda School. They are struggling now, but I think
they've got, let's be tens, if not hundreds of thousands of lines in Airtable that they
are like, they must have people whose sole job it is to actively manage the Airtable
base and all these sort of in-house tools.
So my guess would be that it's going to be like that sort of level of that's what it's
going to be. It's going to be having 10 or 10,000 users on your app doing all these things
every single day. If one little thing breaks, it may not be as easy to fix or reverse as
with code.
But I want someone to use a tutorial like a Cameo clone, build it and actually launch
something that let's see how far these things can go because there's very little people
out there who actually would be able to tell you that answer because not many people have
that sort of successful app regardless of code or no code.
So it's a tricky one. I know it's one that everyone's talking about. And like I said,
I would always just default back to my don't worry about that until you get there. If it
comes to you've got an Airbnb clone for animal houses or whatever it is, and then you want
somewhere, you've got like 1000 people and it starts breaking, you're in a very good
position to do the next stage of your startup, whether that's raise money, high developers
or whatever, you've probably made money on that already.
What about in the short term? Do you find yourself ever sort of frustrated or stymied
that there's things that you have trouble with, things you wish existed in the no code
ecosystem that stop you from getting certain app ideas even to phase one?
I think a lot of things actually look very similar under the like, the building blocks
are quite similar of like, okay, this is a landing page is a database. This is the glue.
And it's just ways of how do I sort of wangle all these things together in a way that makes
it feel and look like a freelancer marketplace, for example, but that can be done just if
one thing breaks on Zapier and something doesn't quite go through, then the whole thing sort
of stops and it's like, okay, now I've got to go through all these things and check my
Zap history and see what what went wrong and debug all that sort of stuff too.
So yeah, I mean, just figuring these stuff, these things out and we need to build the
tutorials there to help with those things and have on demand help and people in a community
who are just willing to help on, okay, I'm an air table expert, so I can help you figure
out some of these things. So yeah, we're getting there because there's, I think the no code
space is an interesting one that you sort of find us because maybe you're, you didn't
have another path, it was either the lens code or find a technical co founder, I know
none of those fit you. So you find no code, you go, you find the tutorial, you build something
in like an hour, two hours, and you think, this is the life I've ever got with anything.
So this is great. And then all of a sudden, you fall down that rabbit hole hard, you either
build multiple things, or you start building using like a certain stack, maybe it's Webflow,
air table, Zapier, and then you sort of become a season expert on a few of these things.
And then you know, because you've gone through all the errors or the ways it works and ways
to connect things you've gone through and figured out how to really get these things
working well together. And then you become that person, the go to person of if you want
to know how to make a marketplace with Webflow, air table and Zapier, then I know the guy
for you. And it's this person, he's like there's a guy doing no conference. So that's why this
is the example, he's built one, and it works really well for him. And he like passes business
and it's like a full on go and find a freelancer filter by their skills and hire them and stuff
like that. So yeah, I think if you want to do the no code, so if you sort of become in
one of those buckets, quite easy in this, it's interesting to see who sort of fits in
well.
Saha, what are your thoughts on the limits of no code, not necessarily in building some
sort of gigantic company like Google or Airbnb or Stripe, but and just trying to get a new
business off the ground? Are there any ideas, any areas where no code is sort of dead on
arrival and you really should have started by building on code?
Yeah, I mean, I think those limits exist. There are certainly things that I would not
consider building on no code. For example, if I was building an app to help no coders
do integration tests on their website, so that if Zapier broke or you'd get like a kingdom
or something that says, hey, like this flow on your app that we run every three minutes
is broken now, or whatever that sort of the integration test sort of reinforce QA looks
like for no code, I think that's a great thing that should exist for no code. I think that's
sort of the meta answer is just there's anything that's sort of considered infrastructure,
like that is considered a service to up to no code or other startups. I will use no code
to do I think maybe there's like sort of a one layer deep stack where you have like a
product that product is no code or uses no code, and then everything or the things sort
of under that need to be code or something like that. Maybe you don't want too many layers
of no code or something. I do think in general, what we'll see is, just like 10 years ago,
I think people were super skeptical or did not really think slack and zoom and stripe
and all these companies were going to be as large as they were startups for startups,
they call them, I think is sort of this big, really crazy, like no one really I feel like
knew how large the industry for startups building startups, not for further startups was was
now you see it with Brex and with like all these crazy companies raising all sorts of
cash to go do that pilot and etc. I think we'll see a similar thing with no code hopefully,
right, where you'll see, you'll have 1000s and 1000s of no code companies that now exist
that will need tools that they'll pay for, and they'll be sort of financially successful
enough to be able to pay for these tools, which will create all of these great tools
for no code businesses, and more no code businesses will lead to more tools, which will lead to
make it you know, more note, and hopefully that sort of builds, which I think is happening
and you'll see that with stripe is probably the best example of a company that I feel
like has created opportunities for new companies to get started, which has created new opportunities
for other startups to help startups to help startups, etc. I do think that I definitely
would default to code for almost anything that I build. For example, I had this idea
yesterday called 20XX, which is an idea that basically it's kind of like a WordPress or
a sub stack or some combination of tools that a potential politician would use to run for
office at some point in this century. So it's like, hey, I might run in 50 years or 30 years
or tomorrow. But I just want to have an issues platform, get feedback, have version control
on it, build an email list. I just think that would be really great and really important.
It would be free, you know, you run by donations or something like that. And my default would
be I'm going to build out with code, even though all of those things like email newsletter
clearly there's a tool for that donations, there's a tool, there's I'm sure no code tool
for that there's all these things. My default is still I guess maybe comes from fear but
like this idea that, you know, I need I need to control everything. I think as it's coming
from a design background, especially I sort of I feel like have this stigma, I would say
again, sometimes things like bootstrap, and you know, things that in the context, let's
say with Gumroad, I wonder if I was able to build Gumroad in no code, but because it was
built like that, people kind of felt that and then didn't report it in the early days
enough or weren't as excited about it. And then therefore, it wasn't successful and never
became thing. So I wonder if no code can sort of potentially defeat ideas that may have
been successful. But that you know, that ideas is one that I think is perfect for no code.
There's like basically three or four tools you would need as a sort of a would be politician.
You could use notion and sub stack or Gumroad or MailChimp or whatever, and sort of zapier
and hook them all together and donations. And so maybe I'm wrong. Maybe that's a great
example of a thing that should exist. But the idea I guess like the I want, you know,
I just have so much comfort in like, okay, well, I know, I know the first 10 steps. If
I if I do it with code, you know, I'm going to create a rails app, I'm going to create
a GitHub repository, I'm going to open source it from day zero. And, you know, I can design
and basically anything I don't have to think about it, because I know I'm going to be able
to use HTML CSS the way I want to look the way it should, in my eyes to sort of perfectly
solve that problem, instead of use the sort of a template, and then add some CSS to kind
of modify the visual aesthetic of it. It's kind of a tangent. I would say that you mentioned
mobile as like sort of a place that maybe no code doesn't shine yet. And that is essential.
Because the thing about code is that I can basically build for one platform. But then
the minute, you know, I have to mobile format it, I have to make an Android app, I have
to make an iOS app, I think that's a huge opportunity for no code to just blow it out
of the water. You know, I have to do all my own meta tags for Google search results and
Twitter to show up nicely on Twitter and to show up nicely on Facebook and to show up
nicely on YouTube. And I think the idea that you can build something once in its universal
is one of the most broadly appealing things to me about no code. And I think we've mentioned
it on the podcast. But it's not the point is not only code, right? And only no code.
Almost everything will be built in a combination of the two. I think Heroku is maybe the best
example of that. Like you basically no coded ops, but you wouldn't call using Heroku like
a no code tool, necessarily, even though basically, that's what you're doing is you're deleting,
you know, thousands of lines of ops code, and potentially a role in your company for
someone that is an operations engineer, you know, that is sort of the most no code you
can get.
You know, it's interesting, Sahil listening to you talk about how if you were to start
something new today, you would just default to using code because that's what you already
know. That's what you're comfortable with. You already have the first 10 steps of any
new project, more or less mapped out in your head. And this is where all your knowledge
and skills are. And that resonates with me because I'm the same way, I would probably
default to using code too. And I might not even give these no code tools, basically the
time of day, I might not even look into them. Because why would I already know how to do
exactly what I want to do using the tools that I'm used to.
But then another part of me wonders if this is what it feels like to be a dinosaur, you
know, is this what it feels like to be running a newspaper 1996, complaining about the internet
and talking about how you don't need it, because paper has always been good enough.
Ben, what are your thoughts here? Are we missing out on something huge? And how do we make
sure that we keep up to date with things that we don't quite understand, and aren't just
carried away blindly by the momentum of what we already do understand?
Well, I think, like you guys saying, you already know 10, first 10 steps, I think I probably
know the same, I know 10 steps to do straight off the bat too with the tools that I already
know. So I'm just as sort of victim to those traps as well, I think. But being currently
in this thing on the pulse of the no code movement, I get to see a lot of these tools
and we were trying to purposely work with these tools and say, when you're releasing
new things, releasing with us as well. So we can show people what is new, what is more
what's possible. And then people are building new things every day and trying to do new
things with no code tools that we get to see. So I guess that happens with some people building
things with code. And it's like, okay, that's like a new thing that I could have used in
this scenario. But I don't know how, how does anyone solve these things? Like I think this
is like, it's a similar problem. Like I said, I think coders and no coders are actually
very similar in their challenges and their thinking and how we've got all use the things
that are most comfortable to us, but also try and remember that things change every
year and every, every month, we should be sort of trying them out every now and then.
Sihal mentioned something that I think is really impactful if you really think about
the implications. And that's that it's way cheaper to build out a team of no coders than
it is to hire a team of software engineers with CS degrees who all expect to be paid
$200,000 a year. And Ben, you've also mentioned the obvious advantage of no code being that
you can quickly prototype things. In fact, I was talking to Tyler Tringis of Earnest
Capital a few weeks back. And he mentioned, Ben, that you'll sometimes tell him that,
oh, you've got a cool idea for a feature or product. And then the next day you'll turn
around and it's already done because you built it with no code tools. And it was super fast.
And just thinking about these things makes me want to zoom out a bit and just think about
the ecosystem as a whole. What are the implications if everybody can build applications for super
cheap and super fast? You know, if we assume, if we do sort of a thought experiment and
assume that 10 years from now, we're looking back at today and we're saying, Oh, wow, no
code really was a huge thing. And it really took off. What's that role going to look like?
And what has to change for us to get there?
Yeah, well, I think like Sahil was talking about, it's funny how the market of startups
helping people build startups was huge is huge. I think the no code thing, for me, at
least opens up the fact that more people can build even more things. So that just really
blows that up. And I think we will see this sort of emergence of maybe hundreds of newsletters
about really niche things, which you can argue is a really good thing or really bad thing.
But I think that there's loads of ways that people can sort of own their own work stuff
where it's like they've maybe got a newsletter and a membership site that they just run.
They get like $3,000, $5,000 a month. And that's just how they live their life. It's
like they're not just doing some job that they dislike because they want to someday
build something and pay an engineer to build or whatever. It's just like, it's like a lifestyle
don't want to say lifestyle business technically, because people have a stigma around that.
But I think it's more like just enabling more people to be a creator and be creative with
what they're doing and the things that they like doing. There's always a community out
there for that. So I think it's all for the good of everything. But I don't know. Is it
a terrible thing that everyone then has their own like mini business and stuff? That could
be easily a problem.
You're describing a world where there's a lot more indie hackers. So I like the sound
of that.
Yeah.
Sahil, what's your vision of a world in which no code is taken over?
Yeah, I mean, I think it would mean that people think about building software like they would
think about, hey, I assume writing a book or making music where it's just a thing that
you don't need a degree, you don't need a two or three year long investment course in
producing stuff. Where I assume music was that inaccessible or game development was
that inaccessible. And now it feels like you can learn things, there's Unity, there's Unreal,
there's all these tools, et cetera. It's like start making music. I would love to see a
world in which being a musician, you wouldn't really say like, oh, I'm a software engineer.
That's not a hobby. Like I make software that most people would assume that's your job.
But if you said I'm a musician, it's much more common to have that as a side hustle.
I would love for that to happen. I think no code building software should be considered
a creative pursuit. It's like these other things. I would say you probably see an order
of magnitude, at least in terms of new businesses being built, you should see 100x. I mean,
if you can really remove the bottleneck of having to hire someone with a CS degree, some
level to build an internet business, you should see 100 times more software businesses being
created. I would also frankly love to see the destruction of a huge amount of really
high market cap companies. So I would love... I actually... When Gumroad, after the layoffs
and I was thinking about what I wanted to do next, potentially, one idea I had was to
basically build open source versions of things that I felt like should be free or close to
free and just basically take 10 to $50 billion companies, build open source versions of them,
and just kind of like Kamikaze or something.
I just want to watch the world burn.
Yeah, I had a joke. It was like, if I can't build a billion dollar company, I don't want
anybody.
There's still part of me that believes that. Especially with the narrative, the way it
is, I think it's a huge opportunity to really take the anti-VC, anti-billionaire sentiment,
of which I think some is invalid and some invalid, and point a huge target on Uber,
for example, would be a great... Or WeWork right now. WeWork, people argue, is a real
estate company, not a software company in it. Then they should have zero... They don't
need engineers. They should be at the perfect no-code start. They should take real estate
and add a layer of great software that they don't have to hire a bunch of engineers to
manage. I think that would be a perfect candidate.
And then you could charge much less or you could charge basically what it costs to run
the space times a tiny percentage or something like that.
So yeah, I'm just excited in general about anything that creates more entrepreneurs,
more people building businesses, more people solving problems, and more people just being
financially independent and having choice and not working in a place that they might
not want to work just because that's the only thing they feel like they can do.
Almost everyone I know that is building what they want to build or making what they want
to make, regardless of the financial viability of it, feels more fulfilled, especially in
today's world where people are dissatisfied with maybe some of the macro trends. They're
feeling personally fulfilled like you're working on something that matters.
I know so many people that are leaving traditional startup jobs and going into working on climate
change or working on some of these things. And I think the easier it is for them to comprehend
how to build a business to solve some of these problems without being like, oh, I have to
land a school and a year from now I can build something. I think that's great. That would
be a great shift.
Yeah, all these tools are giving the average person much, much more leverage to be able
to build something and do something impactful in the world. So I think that's super exciting.
It's pretty crazy what the world is going to look like 10 years from now if the stuff
really catches on.
To sort of close out this discussion, I want to talk about the fact that most people who
want to get started on something might be excited, but they're not really sure what
a good idea is. They might not have any good ideas, not even sure what a good idea looks
like.
I think it's interesting that since there's two of you, we can sort of get both of your
perspectives. Sahel, you could talk about what a developer might want to work on and
Ben, you could talk about what a no-coder might want to work on. So Sahel, let's start
with you. This no-code movement might be taking off. How can a developer, how can a fledgling,
aspiring indie hacker take advantage of this?
Yeah, I mean, I think if you're a coder and you want to contribute, you should talk to
a lot of these people that are in the no-code ecosystem and really figure out where their
pain points are. I assume they probably have more pain points per day than almost any other
person you could talk to because they're building on infrastructure that's throwing you. There's
probably an insane amount of opportunity.
Just like mobile, right? It was like, oh, we can build this, but now mobile. This is
now mobile. Uber is now mobile. Airbnb, Pinterest, et cetera. I think there's a huge opportunity
to take a lot of these startups that already exist that are sort of proven out that there's
a need, give you a sort of template for working on these problems, and then apply it to no-code.
But I think Rainforest QA for no-code would be a great one.
And just, yeah, literally, I would just email a founder and be like, hey, I love what you're
doing. They might be making 10K, MRR, or something like that on their no-code tool or newsletter
or little business, e-commerce website, and just say, you know, what do you do every day
that you wish you didn't have to do? Or make a list of every single recurring task that
you feel is redundant for just doing it over and over again because there's no API for
doing something or, you know, you have to copy and paste something from this website
to this website every day or, you know, you have to do all this math and Excel before
you can do payouts or something like that. Huge. Yeah, I think there's just so much.
There's probably an insane amount of opportunity there. And almost any, I feel like almost
any engineer focused on this could get to $10,000 a month in passive income building
really simple software for these new groups of people. And then once you're there, then
you have the freedom, potentially, to do whatever you want.
Ben, what's your take on the kinds of ideas and websites and businesses that a no-coder
should think about building?
Well, I think if I never try and come up with ideas, I think it's just more about the passion
projects I was talking about before. If there's a specific type of thing you're really interested
in, there's usually a community out there around it. And every, well, I'd say most ideas
that people come to me and say, how to build this thing without code. If you break it down
and really look at what the sort of moving pieces are, it often looks like a marketplace
type app or there's like two sides to it. The screens may look different from Airbnb
or something, but a lot of the times the functionality and the way they are is often transferable.
I think that if you look at lots of apps and startups out there today, you can repurpose
a lot of these. So if you wish there was a gun road, but for music only or whatever it
is, then you could build your own sort of mini version of this. Like Sahil was saying
earlier, I think there's ways to build something but for X that you are really passionate about.
And I think there's loads of opportunities out there. So I think you just got to just
try them out and see which tools work for you and what tools you get on with and which
tools you don't like. And it's just, it's a learning curve if you decide no code or
you decide to code. So either way, I think it's a similar process.
Totally. And I think the common theme that I'm hearing from both of your answers is just
the vast amount of opportunity. Sahil pointed out that the no code space is just so nascent
that it's got a ton of room to grow and it's already pretty huge. But also the founders
operating in the space have a ton of problems that they need solved by developers. And so
if you just start talking to them, you could probably come up with an idea worth working
on pretty quickly. And it's probably going to be one of these infrastructure level ideas
that has the potential to be something really big in the future.
And to your point, Ben, the internet is so massive that almost any particular niche or
hobby or passion you have, there's going to be a lot of other people you can reach. And
with the no code tools that exist today, it's easier than ever to actually build something
impactful to reach them. So all of this sounds super promising. Guys, thank you both for
coming on the podcast. Can you let listeners know where they can go to learn more about
Gumroad and about MakerPad?
Yeah, so MakerPad is makerpad.co or at makerpad on Twitter.
Awesome. And Gumroad is gumroad.com and at Gumroad on Twitter.
All right. Thanks again.
Thanks for having us.
Listeners, you enjoyed this episode. I'd really appreciate it if you let Ben and Sahil know.
Ben is at Ben Hossel on Twitter and Sahil is at SHL. I would also love to know your
thoughts. I know this is kind of a new episode format, but I might be doing more of these
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Thanks for watching.