So the BBC reached out and said, we want to interview you.
And I said, we've got this idea.
We want to take you to a park and have you meet one of the protesters
who's been wielding his gun outside your mosque and talk to him.
It was really interesting because they'd interviewed him before meeting me.
And the things that he was able to utter before meeting me and before
meeting Syrian refugees was just awful.
I mean, the most dehumanizing rhetoric that you can imagine.
But then at the park, he meets me, talks to me.
He meets a Syrian refugee family.
Uh, one of the girls whose leg had been blown off in an airstrike.
And he said, I feel like an idiot.
I mean, he expressed all sorts of regret and was teary eyed that he could
dehumanize people the way that he was.
And so my whole thing was, and is come inside the mosque, put your gun down,
disarm yourself and learn.
And you'll be surprised what you'll walk away with and only took one meeting
with him to completely shift his worldview at the time, which was made up
of heroes and villains, the Muslims, unfortunately, being the villains that
had to be wiped off the face of the earth so that the earth could continue.
The following is a conversation with Imam Dr. Omar Suleiman.
He's a Muslim scholar, civil rights leader, founder and president of the
Yaqeen Institute for Islamic Research.
And he's a professor of Islamic studies at Southern Methodist University.
He's one of the most influential Muslims in the world and is a fearless,
kind-hearted human being who I'm now proud to call a friend.
As a side note, allow me to say a few words about Israel and Palestine.
While this conversation with Omar Suleiman was mostly exploring the history
and beauty of Islam and the Muslim community, we did delve briefly
into the topic of Israel and Palestine.
This topic is an extremely challenging one and an extremely important one.
It has deep roots and implications in U.S. politics, in global geopolitics,
in military and religious conflicts, wars and atrocities, and basic struggle
of all human beings to survive, to protect their loved ones, and to flourish
as individuals and as communities.
I did not want to cover this topic in a solely scholarly fashion.
Much like with the war in Ukraine, it is not simply a story of history,
politics, religion, and national identity.
It is also a deeply human story.
To cover this topic in the way that my gut and my heart says to do it,
I have to talk to everyone, to leaders and people on all sides, Muslim and Jewish,
Israeli and Palestinian, from refugees to soldiers, from scholars to extremists.
I'm not sure if that's possible or wise, but like Forrest Gump said,
I'm not a smart man, and maybe you know how the rest of that goes.
I just like to follow my heart to whatever place it leads.
I ask the Muslim and the Jewish communities for your patience and support
as I explore this topic.
I will make many mistakes and I'll be listening to all voices
so I can learn and do better.
I've become distinctly aware that my approach of talking to people
from all walks of life with empathy and compassion,
but with backbone, can create enemies on all sides.
I don't quite yet understand why this is, but I'm learning to accept
it as the reality of the world.
Hopefully, in the end, whatever happens, whatever silly thing I do,
has a chance of adding a bit of love to the world.
Thanks for going along with me on this journey.
This is the Lex Friedman podcast.
To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description.
And now, dear friends, here's Omar Salamon.
As-salamu alaykum, Omar.
We've been trying to do this a long time.
The world tried to prevent it through the funny ways that the world does,
but here we are.
I'm a huge fan of yours.
It's a huge honor to talk to you.
I appreciate it.
Thank you for making the sacrifice and coming up, I guess, to Dallas.
I appreciate it.
It's a short flight, but a long journey.
Let's start with the biggest question.
Who is God?
According to Islam.
God is the most compassionate, the most merciful,
the creator of the heavens and the earth.
He is one God.
He begets not, nor has he begotten.
He is unique.
He is omnipotent.
He is beyond the limitations of man.
He is beyond the constructs of our imagination.
But he is ever accessible through sincere supplication.
When you call upon him alone, one God,
he is closer to you than your regular vein, the Quran tells us.
He's known by many names and attributes, but his essence is one.
He's one God.
No human likeness, no human imperfection can be attributed to him.
No partners, no image of him can be constructed.
And that is God.
So God represents, he is a feeling of closeness that is accessible to every human being?
Well, God's not a feeling.
God is known by names and attributes.
We call upon God, but there is certainly a feeling of closeness when you access him.
And so I think the beauty of Islam is that as perfect as God is described,
he's also so accessible to the imperfect.
And so the idea of sincere supplication and connection to him, we worship him alone.
We call upon him alone.
There's no clergy.
There's no barrier between God and us.
And that encourages a sincere devotion and commitment to him alone.
And so he is certainly described supreme and God speaks to us through the Quran.
And we speak to him through sincere supplication.
And his attributes are the furthest from us in terms of their perfection.
But he is ever close to us through our supplication, through our prayers and through our connection to him.
To open the door to that connection, to have a connection with God, how difficult is that process?
How difficult was it for you?
How difficult is it for the people that, for the many, many, many Muslims that you've interacted with?
Well, I think that there are different layers of difficulty, right?
There is the personal difficulty submitting yourself to God.
Islam requires a complete submission to him.
And one of the things that happens is that if we project some of our bad experiences with authority onto our relationship with God,
then we immediately perceive him in a certain way that might not allow us to gain a closeness to him
because maybe we didn't have the best relationship with our parents growing up.
Maybe we didn't have the best relationship with authority figures in our lives.
And so this idea of an ultimate authority to whom you submit yourself can be very difficult.
Malcolm X, who was one of the most prominent converts to Islam in American history,
talked about the difficulty of prostration for the very first time, putting your head on the ground,
putting your face on the ground and praying to God is a very humbling thing.
Submitting all of your affairs to him is very humbling.
And ultimately, you have to relinquish control.
And you can't relinquish control without trust.
So you have to learn to trust God.
To trust God, you have to know him.
And to know him is to love him.
And so for me personally, you know, growing up, going through certain difficulties,
having a sick parent who struggled in her life with cancer and with strokes,
dealing with racism in South Louisiana, growing up,
it was important for me to learn about God through my difficulties, for example,
rather than let those difficulties turn me away from him.
Many times people put a barrier between them and God
because they can't make sense of the things that are happening in their own lives.
And so they project anger towards God.
And at the same time, deny their own belief in him
and do away with this natural disposition that every one of us has to believe in him.
So there are intellectual barriers, certainly.
There are experiential barriers.
But I think that one of the beautiful things about Islam is clarity.
There is an explanation for his existence.
There's an explanation for our existence.
There's an explanation for the existence of difficulties and trial
and explanation for the existence of desires and distractions.
And it all comes together so beautifully and coherently in Islam.
And so I think that for many of us, we want to be our own gods, you know,
and ultimately we create and fashion gods in ways that allow us to still be
the ultimate determiners of our own fates, of our own story.
And that's very unfulfilling when you fail at your own plan.
But when you realize that there is one who is all knowing,
that there is one who is all wise,
you actually find peace in submitting yourself to him.
And so submitting your will to him, submitting your desires,
submitting your own fate to him becomes actually an experience of liberation
because you trust the one that you're submitting to.
You trust his knowledge over yours.
You trust his wisdom over yours.
And that gives you a lot of peace.
And then you have direct access to him.
You pray to him, you call upon him, you supplicate.
And everything in your life suddenly has meaning.
You know, in our faith, everything is about intention.
And there's an intentionality even behind the most,
seemingly most mundane actions.
A morsel of food in the mouth of your spouse, your family,
is looked at as a great charity.
The way that you enter into a place and exit out of a place,
what foot you step in, what foot you step out with,
there's an intentionality.
There's a word of remembrance that's spoken.
There's a word of praise before and after you engage in any action.
There are things that you say before you eat, before you sleep.
There is meaning even to your sleep.
One of the great companions of the Prophet Muhammad, peace and blessings be upon him,
he said that I seek the reward for my sleep just as I seek the reward for my prayer
because you sleep to refresh yourself so that you can once again do great things.
And the intentionality behind that allows even the sleep to be rewardable.
You eat to nourish yourself so that you can do great things.
You seek to be in a position of independence and of being sustained
so that you can sustain others.
So the Prophet peace be upon him says, for example,
that the upper hand is better than the lower hand.
The upper hand is the giving hand, the lower hand is the receiving hand.
So to seek a position where you can help other people,
everything becomes intentional.
And there's no such thing as something that is meaningless
and without purpose.
So every pursuit is ultimately a pursuit of God.
And when you pursue God sincerely,
then he rewards you not just with paradise and the afterlife,
but he rewards you with a great sense of serenity and self-satisfaction here.
You mentioned part of the struggle growing up was having a parent, your mom, who was sick.
What do you remember about your mom?
What are some happy, pleasant memories?
So my parents were, well, my father, thank God, is still alive.
My mother was a pious woman, a beautiful woman,
a righteous woman, a woman who was known for treating everyone with a great deal of love and respect.
She was a poet.
She used to write poetry about oppressed peoples around the world.
From her homeland in Palestine to the genocide in Bosnia,
she followed every conflict before social media and poured her heart into it.
She was a woman of great charity.
So when I think back to my mom growing up, she was known for her smile.
My mom was always smiling.
And in fact, every picture of her, she's smiling.
And at her funeral, you know, people talked about her smile,
that she would smile at everyone and that was kind of her thing.
So if you were left out of a gathering, she was smiling at you and she'd kind of welcome you in.
I remember my mom to be content.
She was a woman of prayer and a woman of contentment.
So I used to see her in her prayer clothes all the time.
In fact, when I think back to her growing up,
I think of her more in her prayer clothes than in her normal clothes
because that's how often she was engaged in prayer.
And I think of her making sure that everyone was included in a conversation.
So she was very interesting in that she had several strokes.
And each one of those strokes impaired one of her senses to some extent.
So she was partially deaf because of one stroke.
And she'd be sitting in a gathering and she'd be pretty quiet with a big smile on her face, very serene.
And she would tell me, you know, Alhamdulillah, which means thank God, all praise be to God,
that I can't hear because I can tell when people are gossiping,
when people are saying negative things around me about other people,
because she says even the look on people's faces changes.
So it was really interesting because she was that spiritually rooted and deep
that she said like you could see on the looks on people's faces
when they started to speak ill about other people that their faces would change,
that their demeanor would change.
And she said, I would actually praise the Lord that I couldn't engage in those conversations
and that I wasn't sinful for hearing them.
And what she would do is what people said at her funeral,
which was really beautiful to me and was very comforting to me.
And I took it as a life mission that if you were new to a place
or if you were kind of in the corner and not known to other people in the community
and you felt left out, she was the one that literally would look around the room
and she'd see who was standing in the corner and who was new to the community
or new to whatever place and she'd go and try to include that person in the gathering.
So even when she had impaired speech and impaired hearing with her smile
and with her warmth, she was able to welcome people wherever that was.
And so the amount of people that came to her funeral and the stories that I continue to hear
till this day, 15 years later after her passing away of people that said,
no one ever treated me the way your mother treated me.
And she connected that to God.
So that was actually part of my faith journey.
When I think of great people, when I think of people of faith,
she's the first person that comes to my mind because despite her challenges,
she was always the greatest person that you would meet.
Anyone that met her and that knew her would say,
I've never met anyone that kind.
That was her reputation.
And she was deeply empathetic.
She would shed tears over people that she had no connection to.
This is again, before social media, before the heavy exposure
that we have to people in conflict zones.
She had to engage every single human being in her life
in a deep and profound way because she had a profound connection to God.
And she believed that that was her calling.
And none of her challenges made her bitter.
In fact, they only made her more connected to God.
And they only made her a better person until the last breath that she took.
Do you miss her?
Yeah.
I mean, yes, absolutely.
But I feel like everything I do is an extension of her.
So you try to carry what she stood for?
Absolutely.
As part of yourself?
The Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, said that when a person passes away,
there are only three things that continue to benefit them,
that continue to extend them.
A continuous charity or a piece of knowledge that continues to benefit people
or a righteous child that prays for them.
And I want to be that child that prays for her,
but also does charity in her name extends her charity,
extends what she taught me by being the person that she was to everyone around me.
And there's sometimes where I don't feel like getting out of bed,
sometimes where I don't feel like doing for myself,
but I actually feel like doing for her.
So everything in my life that I try to do,
I try to make it an extension of her.
And that's been my calling.
And I believe I'll meet her again.
I believe I'll be with her again.
I believe that everything I do that is good will be of benefit to her.
And I believe that it would make her proud.
And so as much as I miss her,
as much as I am fueled to do for her.
And so I continue that and that's kind of become part of my life.
It's been my life story as a child and as an adult.
It's been sort of the centerpiece of my life to do things that extend her.
And ultimately in the process, hopefully benefit me
because I believe that she's a woman who I pray is destined for paradise.
And I want to do the things that would get me there too.
What did you learn about death, about life from losing her?
I feel like the facade of the material world was made evident to me at a very young age.
Most children grow up and their parents want to protect them from everything.
And I felt that too.
My mother wanted to downplay her own tragedy
so that me and my brother could live a fruitful and fulfilling life.
My father wanted to protect us from the hardship of her life
so that we could live fulfilling lives.
He'd often be the only father on a field trip, even though he was a distinguished professor.
I mean, he was a busy man.
He was a very busy man, but he tried to show up at a field trip
and tried to make our lives as normal as possible.
But in the process, we always understood that there was more to life
than what other children were seeing it as.
And now I know that as an adult, there's more to life than what other adults see it as.
The material world disappointed early on so that we could see beyond it.
And I often tell people that there are many that grow up in tragedy, orphan children, refugees,
that grow up and do incredible things because they immediately see past the facade.
They see through all of the material promises of this world, the deception of it.
And that you can choose to be bitter as a result of that, or you can choose to be better.
And I think that for me, I had to consciously make that decision that I was going to live a life of prayer.
I was going to live a life of charity. I was going to live a life of commitment.
And in that process, invest in something that's greater.
Invest in something that doesn't disappoint.
And so I believe in God. I believe in the hereafter.
And I believe that God will not let any trial or effort in this life go to waste without it being repaid in the hereafter.
And so I work towards that.
And so life and death, I understood existence to be transcendent early on.
That if I believed that there was nothing to life except for life, I would be a very bitter person.
But because I know that there is more to it than this, I'm able to exist in it without being depressed by it.
Existence is transcendence.
What happens after we die, after the material instantiation fades away?
So the Qur'an tells us that God brought us from the darkness of the womb into this life.
You were nothing but a dirty drop of fluid and you became this fully proportioned human being from the darkness of the womb.
You come into this life, you experience it, and then you go to the darkness of the grave only to be resurrected once again.
And that we are souls with bodies, not bodies with souls.
And there's a huge difference between those two things.
This is the vehicle that contains us here.
This is the material world that we encounter here.
But we are not this and this is not our entire existence.
And so the soul continues.
This is a life in which we seek to worship him and seek to live in accordance with the purpose that he has set out for us.
And after we pass away, our soul continues onwards either to reward or to punishment or to a mixture of both.
But it's a realm of accountability.
And hopefully it's a realm of reward should we exist in a way that he wants us to exist.
So you said that you can look to God for wisdom to make sense of the world.
There's a lot of stuff to us humans that's difficult to make sense of, like you losing your mother.
There's a lot of cruelty in the world.
There's a lot of suffering in the world.
What wisdom have you been able to find from God about why there is suffering in the world?
Why there's cruelty?
You know, there's a saying that I wanted to ask God about why he allows hunger and war and poverty.
But I was afraid he might ask me the same question.
God has certainly given us enough food.
There is enough food in the world for everyone to have a 3200 calorie diet a day.
God has certainly given us enough guidance for us to not inflict on each other the cruelty that we inflict.
When we look to the world around us, first and foremost, we have to have a sense of accountability.
We are accountable for our own actions.
We don't blame God for the evil of man.
That's one.
But at the same time, we understand that God in his wisdom allows for certain outcomes that we cannot encompass with our own.
And that to isolate these incidents and to try to make sense of them is no different than a baby in the womb
that doesn't understand the world that it's coming into.
And trying to explain to that baby that hasn't yet developed its own senses and its own perception of this world what is happening to it.
I often think of the example of a child and having been at this point now through the experience of parenthood.
I'm still learning.
I'm just going into having a teenager with three kids and being a softy for my kids when you have to tell your child that they can't have something that they really, really want.
And that child thinks you hate them at some point, you know, because why are you stopping me from putting this toy in my mouth and choking myself?
They don't get it, right?
But at the same time, you prevent them out of love.
They're not in a position to understand that you're preventing them out of love.
And to isolate these incidents with God and to say the wisdom, what's the wisdom?
You're trying to make sense of a pixel when you can't see the bigger picture.
Your mind is not at a place where you can make sense of the bigger picture.
You haven't seen the bigger picture.
And so for him to even explain to us every incident would completely defeat the purpose of putting your trust in him.
So we believe in a God that is all-encompassing in his knowledge and wisdom that gives us and Islam is very, you know, specific by the way that there is what God tells us to do and there's what God allows to happen.
So what God tells us to do in terms of the roadmap towards good and then what God allows to happen in his divine wisdom that no outcome can escape him.
But at the same time, we are accountable for our own actions and our own deeds.
So when you come to someone and say, you know, why did God allow this to happen to this person?
I can't rationalize that for you because my understanding is relegated to the immediate experience in front of me.
But if I know God and if I learn about God, then I don't have to make sense of the plan, but I can tell you that I trust the planner.
And I think that that's where peace is found.
You know, a lot of times you look for the light at the end of the tunnel.
What's the light at the end of the tunnel?
In Islam, there's emphasis on God and the hereafter because to try to make sense of divine decree and why certain things happen in this world without the existence of a God or without the existence of a hereafter will always fail you.
So the existence of a God that is all knowing what we don't know, I know what you don't know, that understands what we don't understand.
The existence of a God who is not subject to our constrictions and the existence of a hereafter where all things find recourse, where there is divine recourse,
allows for this world to be situated within the existence of something greater and not treated in isolation.
So when you're trying to treat an incident of this world in isolation, you're going to fail.
And when you try to treat existence in this world and of this world in isolation, you're also going to fail.
And so the emphasis is the belief in God, a God that is not limited like you are and a belief in the hereafter that is not limited like this life.
And so everything continues onwards and there's divine recourse for everything, each and everything.
You know, the Prophet Muhammad, peace and blessings be upon him, mentions that on the day of judgment, a person who lived the most difficult of lives will be dipped into paradise one time
and will be told, have you ever seen any sadness, any hardship?
Now, when you think about the most difficult life, some of the commentators in Islam, they said that this is perhaps referring to the Prophet Job, a Yub, peace be upon him,
because Job lived obviously a life of great difficulty, but that a person who lived a very hard life would be dipped into paradise one time.
And just with a dip be asked, have you ever seen any hardship? Have you ever seen any misery?
And that person would say, what is sadness? What is hardship? What is misery?
Now, if you don't believe in the hereafter, if you don't believe in anything beyond this life, then the recourse has to happen in this life.
And because we see so many people pass through this life without recourse of cruelty, without recourse of suffering, then we're forced to try to make sense of it.
And if you are someone who believes that this entire world came into existence through randomness, that we're just an existence of random atoms that collide with each other
and that all of this comes together out of nothing, then how can you put your trust in anything that is greater?
So, you ask me, as a child of a parent who suffered, I believe that every moment that my mother suffered, that she will be rewarded, that she will be elevated,
that all of that made her or contributed to the beautiful person that she was and will contribute to the beautiful reward that she receives.
And the recourse is certain to me as a believer in that.
So, the right approach to making sense of the world, especially making sense of suffering and cruelty, is that of humility, that we as humans cannot possibly understand fully.
Absolutely. In fact, in the Qur'an, it's very interesting. When God creates Adam, the angels say to God,
are you going to create a race or a species that will spill blood and cause corruption? And God says to the angels in response to that question,
I know that which you don't know. So, even the angels have to humble themselves for a moment.
The angels who adore God, who love God, who worship Him, who obey Him unconditionally, they are told by God, I know that which you don't know.
And what we extract from that, what many of the early interpretations extract from that is that God knows that there are human beings that will come out of this enterprise of humanity,
that make the entire existence of it worth it. And so just as, yes, there will be criminals and corrupt ones.
There will be prophets and beautiful people that come out of this and sages and saints that come out of this, that show that a human being who,
unlike an angel, who has no choice but to worship God, an angel has no sense of will, no sense of choice, an angel is created to worship and has no desires,
a human being who has the choice of desire and worship, the choice of righteousness and wickedness,
that there are human beings who will choose worship and righteousness, that will choose charity over cruelty,
that will choose service and choose dedication and devotion over death and destruction,
that there are human beings that will in fact ascend the angels in rank because they will live lives where they choose that capacity, that part of themselves,
and they lean into that and worship God lovingly and obey Him.
You see, some of the sages in Islam scholars, they describe this as saying that the human being has the capacity to be anywhere from an animal to an angel,
or even worse, to be a devil to an angel, not in the sense that we ever actually become angels or become animals,
but that an animal for the most part seeks its desires over everything, doesn't really think about many of the things that we are supposed to calculate as human beings,
doesn't think about which territory it's infringing upon, or how much of its appetite it should fulfill.
It simply exists to fulfill its appetite, and that many human beings simply exist to fulfill their appetite,
and they choose that over worship or reason or anything that is greater.
They literally take their selves as gods in that sense, and their selves have no limitation on appetite,
so they just keep filling that appetite and filling that appetite and filling that appetite,
whereas a human being can also go to the extent of choosing something greater and disciplining their desires,
disciplining their selves, because they're seeking a greater reward.
We know many people that are to you great things in the worldly sense, because they choose to study over sleep, for example.
They choose to exert themselves towards their careers, towards their education,
because they believe that ultimately the outcome of those pursuits are more rewarding than the immediate fulfillment of their desires.
So as believers, we choose that love of God, and we choose that outcome that we seek,
and we discipline ourselves to where we can even ascend past the angels in rank.
Now, of course, I said we can go as low as an animal or even as low as a devil,
and we have tyrants past and present and future as well that can become satanic in their nature,
because they allow their desires to take such control over them that they not only worship them,
but that every other existing being around them simply becomes a piece of their own puzzle
in pursuit of their own lordship and their own satisfaction, and they will kill, they will discard.
Not because, and I always say this, it's not that tyrants necessarily like killing people,
it's that people's lives pose somewhat of an indifference to them.
They're indifferent to people's existence, and so you become either an object for or against me,
and so they're willing to discard children, discard people, discard the rights of others,
because they ultimately have chosen that the greatest pursuit of themselves is the maximum position of power
and a place to where they can fulfill what they want to of themselves without any limits,
and everyone else becomes either a threat or an opportunity in that regard.
We can be devils, we can be angelic-like, we can be animals, we're somewhere on that spectrum.
And every moment contains a set of choices you can make?
Absolutely, every single moment contains a set of choices, and that's where the intentionality comes in.
So the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, says that I saw a person strolling in paradise
because he removed something harmful from the road.
He tells us about a woman that lived the life in prostitution,
but that repented to God when she was thirsty one day, and she saw a dog that was also thirsty,
and she said that I was thirsty and God gave me water, so I'm going to choose to give water to that thirsty dog,
and God enters her into paradise as a result of that.
Sometimes the small moments with a small sincere deed can have a huge impact on a person's trajectory.
So every moment is a moment of choices.
And when we choose belief, righteousness, a pursuit of something greater,
then we find ways to turn things that are otherwise mundane into miraculous acts, right?
Where we can choose God over ourselves, and in the process choose a better fate for ourselves.
How difficult is the process of knowing, understanding what is the righteous action,
of knowing what it means to be a good man or a good woman?
Well, the truth has consequences.
So don't seek out the truth unless you're willing to abide by what you find.
So a lot of people want to mold their journey in accordance with a predetermined pursuit that they already have.
But when they approach religion, they approach it like another product.
You know, there was an article that was actually written by a rabbi.
I've spoken about this in several sermons.
It was called The Allure of Narcissistic Spirituality.
The Allure of Narcissistic Spirituality, where he talks about, you know,
how religion becomes just another product of your own self-adoration and worship,
to where you only approach religion to the extent that it gives you more happiness in the worldly sense.
You only approach of it what is therapeutic.
So it becomes just as secular in its nature as any other practice of meditation or whatever it may be or some other product.
And he kind of mentions, you know, how he took that from a person that is praying in a temple
and a guy walks into the temple and bumps into him and then he curses the guy out.
So he didn't see his behavior towards that person as part of his trajectory of worship.
He just saw his being godly as the worship that he was engaged in.
The truth has consequences.
The truth has circumstances that are required of you, actions that are required of you,
that may be somewhat inconvenient.
So you have to be willing to engage in a sincere pursuit of truth and look for truth for what it is
and not simply look for comfort and convenience.
And when you engage in that journey of wanting to know, you have to engage it thoroughly and sincerely
and try your best to remove any bias.
I think that's what makes the religion of Islam such a phenomenon for people,
that with all the Islamophobia and the bigotry towards it, still the fastest growing religion in the United States
and the fastest growing religion in the world, then no, that's not all birth rate.
Yeah, we have a lot of kids, but many people, you know, you met someone just before we started this interview.
Many people, in fact, in a post-911 world, saw what they saw of Islam in the media
and they actually, you know, went and checked out copies of the Qur'an and started to read about the religion
and in their sincere pursuit of truth,
ended up embracing a religion that they believed was the greatest source of destruction in the world
and now it's the greatest source of peace for them in their own existence, in their own lives.
And so you have to be willing to engage in a sincere pursuit of wanting to know
and then be willing to engage in sincere commitment after you know.
Otherwise, the heart rusts and so there's a process in the Qur'an talks about this,
of making the heart like fertile soil towards truth.
So you have a sincere pursuit, but then at some point if you come to know and then you ignore what you come to know,
then the heart rusts and it becomes harder to recognize at the second time around and the third time around.
And so when people come to me and they say, you know, I'm looking for something, I'm looking for God,
I'm looking for my purpose, the first thing I tell them as I say, listen, what you need to do is
if you're really looking for God and you believe in God,
and there are often people that say, I believe in God, but I don't know where to go with this, right?
I know that there's something greater and in Islam we call that the fitrah,
a natural disposition towards the belief in the existence of God.
But where do I go from here? You know, what do I do now?
And I say the first thing you need to do is you need to sincerely say, oh God, guide me to the truth.
Call upon God sincerely, say I'm calling upon you alone and I'm asking you to guide me to the truth.
Show me what it is, right? And that's the heart function.
Then you need to actually investigate and try to suspend bias, right?
Investigate the world's religions, investigate the claims to truth, investigate,
use, you know, rational inquiry to the extent that the heart becomes satisfied.
And suspend bias and you'll be surprised.
And so for a lot of people, they come to me and they say, you know, this, this, this about Islam.
I'm like, look, I'm, if you're just going to talk to me about what you've seen of Islam in the media,
if you were serious about it, you know, if you're serious about it,
then you're not simply going to be satisfied with the highly edited images
and distorted facts that come towards you about this religion, right?
What are you looking for, right?
Are you, are you looking for a scapegoat?
Islam poses a threat to many people, right?
Are you looking for a scapegoat?
Are you looking for the big, bad, scary, foreign enemy?
Or are you looking at a religion that one fourth of the world adheres to?
And if one fourth of us were bad, the world would not exist, right?
So are you looking towards this religion that one fourth of the world adheres to?
Are you going to read about the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him?
Are you going to read the Quran yourself?
Are you going to investigate for yourself what it is that this faith has to offer and find in it a great sense of wisdom,
a great sense of beauty, a great sense of truth?
And I think that for a lot of people, you know, they find that Islam has such a beautiful combination
of the intellectual proofs as well as the spiritual experiences that often combine
what people seek in the Western and the Eastern religions.
So I had an interesting two weeks, two weeks in a row.
This was August, two weeks in a row.
I had someone who converted to Islam that went from being, that started off as a Methodist,
went from being a Methodist to being a Buddhist to being a Muslim.
So two weeks in a row, I had a Methodist turned, Buddhist turned Muslim.
Great journey.
Yeah, I called my Methodist friends.
I have a lot of Methodist pastors in the city that I work with.
And I said, what's going on here, man?
Sending people on to this interesting journey of Buddhism and then Islam.
But both of them had a very similar story, which is that they had sought in Buddhism, for example.
You know, some of the meditative practices that are found,
that really Western religion, which has been dominated by capitalism
and dominated by very material things and can be very unfulfilling.
They found that in some of the Eastern philosophies and the meditative practices.
And then they came to Islam and it combines, you know, their belief in sort of the Abrahamic way.
It merged their belief in one God and the prophets like Abraham and Moses and Jesus,
peace be upon them all, with a deep tradition of meditative practices, of consciousness,
of connection to God on a regular basis.
And they found that to be very fulfilling both intellectually and spiritually.
And so I was like, that's interesting, you know, two people in two weeks that went through that journey.
So I think Islam is very wholesome, comprehensive when people actually approach it with humility
and appreciate what it has to offer.
As you mentioned, in the minds of some Americans, after 9-11,
the religion of Islam was associated with maybe you could say evil in the world.
Maybe you can say terrorism.
How can you respond to this association?
How does it make you feel, first of all, as a devout Muslim yourself?
And how can you overcome it personally?
How can you overcome it as a community and as a religious leader?
It's interesting because 9-11 now, we're talking over 21 years ago.
You know, there's people born after 9-11 and you get to talk to them all the time.
Yeah, so when I'm talking to young Muslims, I'm talking about post 9-11, post 9-11.
They're like, I was born in 2005.
What are you talking about post 9-11?
I remember being a teenager.
I remember being in high school when this happened, right?
So a lot of us that experienced 9-11 as high school lures or as college students
and remember distinctly what it was like to be a Muslim pre 9-11 and post 9-11,
we can relate to that experience and we could identify that juncture very clearly
and talk about it and speak to the change in the perceptions of Islam
that happened here in the United States and around the world.
But a lot of young people are born into that reality and are experiencing the aftermath of it
and unfortunately have to deal with the bigotry that has not just taken greater shape
in media constructions of Islam, but also policies, right?
A lot of the civil liberties of the Muslim community were taken away from us.
You read about the Patriot Act, you read about the securitization of the Muslim community
and some of the unfair practices that have been engaged by the Bush administration,
the Obama administration, the Trump administration
and continue into the Biden administration, international Islamophobia.
And so the hatred of Muslims and the bigotry that is wielded against Muslims
on the basis of this idea that we are a barbaric people that ascribe to a religion of hate and violence
has had immediate consequences for us no matter where we are in terms of our age
and in terms of our experience.
We have dealt with that in different ways.
Now, the association of Islam to terrorism is a lazy association.
It's one that ignores both the history of violence as well as its everyday occurrence.
You know, we're good for how many mass shootings a year?
When's the last time you heard of a Muslim carrying out a mass shooting in America, right?
How many of those mass shootings?
If you were to scrub the social media, what, 400, 500 mass shootings a year?
If you were to scrub the social media of some of those that carried out those shootings.
You know, we're good for one or two idiots a year, right?
It's unfortunate that you're going to have people that carry out despicable acts of violence.
But when we as Muslims hear someone in the media say terrorism has been ruled out as a possibility,
while the blood is still on the floor of that Walmart,
we already know that the police chief just said that that wasn't a Muslim.
Don't worry.
You know, that wasn't an Al Qaeda guy or an ISIS guy.
It was one of our own, right?
So it's become frankly ridiculous because the association of violence with Islam
is one that is used to actually carry out acts of violence against Muslims worldwide.
It justifies bad policy towards Muslims worldwide and then in the United States.
And it's just factually so lazy.
We study just about how the media gives more attention to acts of violence done by Muslims
and immediately stamps it with Islam up to 300% more than it will
with another act of violence carried out in the name of anything else.
So you don't hear about the acts of violence that are carried out by others.
You don't hear about the religion of the perpetrators.
You don't associate terrorism with actions, frankly, of state terrorism.
You know, when governments launch chemical attacks or drone weddings
and do so while explicitly dehumanizing the people just because they do so
with the government apparatus doesn't make it any less terroristic
than if it's a lone person that goes out and commits an act of violence
trying to achieve a political goal.
So the association is lazy.
Historically speaking, the Crusades, I grew up in Louisiana.
I saw clan rallies, Ku Klux Klan rallies my whole life
and people said, well, that's a thing of the past.
Well, guess what?
We see many semblances, many acts that are carried out with the same vitriol
that was generated by the Ku Klux Klan.
We have people standing in front of our mosques
that belong to right-wing hate militias carrying AR-15s
talking about wanting to inflict harm on Muslims.
They've been to Christchurch, New Zealand
and buried the victims of a white supremacist terrorist
who was inspired by the political rhetoric here in the United States
in his own words as a manifesto to go and kill 50 innocent people
in Christchurch, New Zealand, one of the most peaceful cities in the world.
And by the way, Lex, I mean, it's really interesting like with Christchurch,
you know, the man wanted, and I won't even say his name,
but his next target after the two mosques had he not been stopped
was to go to a Muslim daycare.
So what drives someone to dehumanize people to that extent
that he was willing to go to a daycare and murder a bunch of kids
because he saw them as a demographic threat to civilization?
So Muslims are terrorized because they are falsely depicted as terrorists.
Muslims suffer domestically and globally because of this false association.
It's a lazy association.
And when someone comes around and says, well, fine,
not all Muslims are terrorists, but all terrorists are Muslims.
I say that you clearly don't read statistics.
Whether we're talking about the 20th century,
and I'm a student of history and I believe you are as well,
all the isms, World War I, World War II had nothing to do with religion,
certainly nothing to do with Islam, fascism, Soviet atheism, right?
Many of these systems where people were murdered in the millions,
Nazism, the Holocaust, Rwanda, Cambodia, I can go on and on.
The Rohingya today, the greatest atrocity towards the Uyghurs.
Where's Islam fit in all of this?
People do horrible things.
They stamp it with religion at times.
But the only group of people that seem to suffer after an act of violence is committed
by Muslims because any act of violence that is committed by a Muslim will immediately be blamed on Islam.
And 2 billion people will have to carry the burden of the act of a single perpetrator.
And just to reiterate, in case the numbers are not known,
you mentioned Christchurch, those are two mosque shootings with 51 people killed
and 40 were injured in New Zealand.
Yeah.
So it's hate manifesting itself and then actual human suffering and destruction.
Absolutely.
Is there similarities between anti-Semitism and anti-Muslim hate?
So is there something deeper to say about hate in general here
that is beyond just particularly hate towards Muslims?
Absolutely. Look, in Pittsburgh, the synagogue shooting,
the perpetrator particularly targeted that synagogue because
Tree of Life synagogue.
11 killed, 6 wounded in 2018.
Because he believed that they were taking in Syrian refugees
or supporting Syrian Muslim refugees.
You think about that.
The San Diego synagogue shooting that took place shortly after,
he went to a mosque and then he went to a synagogue.
Look, the idea of scapegoating minority populations
and attributing to them a disproportionate sense of power
and a nefarious element where they can't be trusted.
And unless we wipe them out, then they're going to wipe us out,
underlies many of the bigotries that exist.
Look, after Trump announced his Muslim ban,
there was a shooting in Canada, an attack in Canada on a mosque in Quebec
where six people were killed.
The shooter explicitly said that the reason why he went to that mosque in Quebec
and shot dead six Muslim worshippers was because he was afraid
that because of the ban on Syrian refugees in the United States,
they would come to Canada and he didn't want them to feel welcomed in Canada.
So there is a connection.
And I think it's when you are able to dehumanize large groups of people
and attribute a nefarious element to them,
then unfortunately in a world that's becoming more and more polarized
where people are able to construct their entire world views
based on an algorithm that their social media caters to,
you're going to have some of these attacks happen
and there's going to be an unfortunate connection between them.
So what I tell people is that I think with all of these people
that shoot up synagogues and shoot up mosques
and even before that actually the Charleston, South Carolina
shooting at an AME church, you know, when he went there,
he actually said that before he murdered nine worshippers in that church,
he was taken aback by how nice they were to him.
He sat there for two hours before he turned a gun on many people
who were over the age of 80 years old and murdered them in cold blood.
So this is what I talk about when I say that as human beings
we have the propensity unfortunately to become worse than devils
or we can choose to be angelic
when we choose worship and righteousness over ourselves.
So that's a spiritual crisis as well
and a crisis of meaning and emptiness
where I think people are willing to inflict great pain on others
when they can't make sense of their pain in their own lives.
I'd like to try to figure out together with you sort of a way out
to try to decrease the amount of hate in the world
but maybe it's useful to talk about the BBC documentary
that is kind of interesting that people should check out
it's called United States of Hate, Muslims under attack
and you appear in that, you have conversations with people who are anti-Muslim
I believe most of it takes place here in Dallas
and can you just tell me about this little documentary about that time
what it was like to interact, what was the group in the documentary
and what was it like to interact with them?
In the very beginning of the rise of, at that time actually
Ted Cruz, Donald Trump, when Islamophobia was at the center
of many of the presidential candidates' campaigns at the time
So this must have been 2015?
Yes, 2015, the mayor of Irving at the time, Beth Van Dyn
who is now a congresswoman, had put out the idea
that Muslims were operating a Sharia court in Irving, Texas
and suddenly there was hysteria
because again there's the idea that Muslims are here to dominate
Muslims are here to overthrow everything that you have in the United States
there was hysteria here
and it was unfortunate because what it unleashed
especially with the national discourse at the time
again the presidential campaign, Donald Trump says, I think Islam hates us
when he uses those words, I think Islam hates us
when Ted Cruz suggests that Muslim neighborhoods could be patrolled
or should be patrolled
and then you have the Irving mayor saying that
one of the most populated cities with Muslims in America
they're operating under an alternative legal, an alternate legal system
and funny enough the year before that she'd come to the mosque
and she praised the diversity of Irving
and she was talking about how welcome she felt in the mosque
and the next thing we know, you have these crazy white supremacist groups
and many white supremacists that affiliate themselves with the Klan
and others protesting regularly in front of our mosques with their AR-15s
and telling people to go back home
and I'm like, I'm from New Orleans, I'm not planning to move back to New Orleans
I'm home, we're home, we're good, we're staying put
and we refuse to be intimidated
but then when the Syrian refugee crisis is unfolding as well
Dallas has been one of the more popular destinations, if you will
I'm not talking about it like a vacation destination
but where a lot of refugees have come to
just because of the infrastructure that we have set up here
to receive refugees
and so that hysteria was an unfortunate perfect combustion
of the national discourse with the local discourse
with the incoming refugees
and we would do all sorts of welcome refugee events
and we do that
and we don't only do that for Muslim refugees, by the way
there are refugees from other parts of the world as well
but we would host events at our mosques
to welcome refugees, to help integrate them into the community
to do things for them
so you have these armed protests happening, right?
and it's horrible because
think about the trauma to the children
that are hearing about Tree of Life
and hearing about some of these other incidents that are unfolding
and really one of the first communities that was targeted
was the Sikh community in Madison
that was one of the first shootings
and then the AME church, Charleston
and then you just had
tons of places of worship being targeted, right?
so they're seeing this unfold and they're seeing these guns
in front of their mosques and the result
to many as well, I just don't want to get shot
I don't want to go to the mosque, I don't want to have this happen to me
so, you know, when BBC reached out and said
we want to do a documentary about this
unfortunately, Dallas was the only place in America
where you had regular armed groups in front of our mosques
it was happening around the country infrequently
but here it was happening every week
so the BBC reached out and said, we want to interview you
and they said, we've got this idea, we want to put you
we want to take you to a park
and have you meet one of the protesters
who's been wielding his gun outside your mosque
and talk to him
and it was really interesting
because they interviewed him before meeting me
and the things that he was able to utter
before meeting me
and before meeting Syrian refugees
was just awful
I mean, the most dehumanizing rhetoric that you can imagine
but then, at the park
he meets me, talks to me
he meets a Syrian refugee family
one of the girls whose leg had been blown off
in an airstrike
and he said, I feel like an idiot
I mean, he expressed all sorts of regret
and was teary eyed
that he could dehumanize people the way that he was
and so my whole thing was
and is, come inside the mosque
put your gun down
disarm yourself and learn
and you'll be surprised what you'll walk away with
and only took one meeting with him
to completely shift
his world view at the time
which
was made up of heroes and villains
the Muslims unfortunately being the villains
that had to be wiped off the face of the earth
so that the earth could continue
so that was an interesting documentary
and it was an interesting social experiment
What's it feel like to have
all these people that hate you
and others in the community
people you love
with guns
threatening violence
basically that don't want you here
in this country, on this earth?
It's not nice
it's not great, I mean it's
it's definitely a challenge but
look, there are challenges that we face
as Muslims
being in the United States, being in a hostile climate
there are different types of challenges
and
I think what we've had to do
as a Muslim community
is see beyond both the guns
and the roses
and think about who we are first
because frankly
Islamophobia exists in different forms
and from different sides
and we try to use this
as an opportunity to instill
in our young people
not just a sense of belonging
but a sense of purpose
do not be intimidated
and in fact
show them the best of your Islam
live your life because at the end of the day
the goal that is sought
through intimidation is silence
and so we have to carry ourselves
as proud American Muslims
we don't have to impress anyone
and we don't need to relinquish
an iota of our faith
to coexist with anyone
we are satisfied
with who we are
we don't see
a contradiction
between
our place of
residence and our religion
our nationality, our religion
we don't see that as a problem
so that's something for them to work out
not for you to work out
that's what I would tell young Muslims
that continue to live your faith fully
and demonstrate the beauty of it
and do not let the ugliness of the world consume you
but for those young Muslims
what would you say
how they should feel towards the people that hate them
the natural human
there's a desire still
to have anger, to have
resentment, to have hate back
the people that hate you
the Quran says respond to that which is evil
with that which is better
and you will find that
sometimes your enemy will become
your close friend
so respond with that which is better
doesn't mean be passive
sometimes
there needs to be a demonstration of strength
sometimes there needs to be a demonstration
of
ignoring
a people altogether
but ultimately you can't let
the way people treat you
shape who you're going to be in the world
and so that's why I say we have to look
beyond the guns and the roses
we have to look beyond the hostility
of our enemies
and the temporary
and opportunistic embrace of some of those
who claim to be our allies
and be us
and treat the world
and treat the people of this world in accordance with your standards
not with theirs
so don't teach them
or don't let them teach you bad character
you teach them good character
so live your life
and live your faith
beautifully
and let people see the beauty of it through your
being
and do not let their ugliness
consume you
but at the same time
sometimes you got to give people room to express frustration
to say that
this is unacceptable
to have demonstrations of strength
and
I think that those things don't have to all
come from each other
what do you think about
these kinds of protests are not allowed
in many parts of the world
what do you think about
one of the most
you directly personally painful manifestations
of the First Amendment
of the people's right
to freedom of speech and to protest
to say hateful things
you've been at the receiving end
of the worst of it
what do you feel
about this particular freedom
that's at the core
of the founding of this country
look I think that you have to take it away from
the text and
look at it within reality
let's be real
would Muslims be able to protest in front of churches
with guns on a weekly basis in this country
I don't think so
so there's a deep pragmatically speaking
there's a hypocrisy too
major hypocrisy
see free speech is an ideal
that is weaponized
against
the Muslim community
and against other communities
in such a hypocritical way
you take for example some countries in Europe
let's kind of move away from this
and look at the hypocrisy of
a place like France
where the
caricaturing and the portrayal
of the Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him
in derogatory ways
will be used as the hallmark of free speech
but
Muslims that will caricature
Macron
or challenge
some of the values of France
the supposed and trying values of France
will end up in prison and end up deported
and so here in the United States
there's a great hypocrisy
I don't think that
places of worship
should have armed protesters in front of them
I think that that poses a security risk
I think that it's not okay
and I think that
free speech is weaponized
against the Muslim community
and often is held up
as this great value
but really to attain very
lowly things
and is often to our detriment
yeah just even
watching that documentary
it's hard to put into words
but somehow that
does not capture
what maybe the founders
intended
what I would see
is the great ideal of the freedom of speech
I don't know what the solution to that is
I think taking it outside of words
maybe that requires
a community, a cultural pressure
to be better
it's not about the law
it's more about just the cultural pressure
what is and isn't okay
because there's something deeply wrong
about that kind of hate
yeah because it was
dehumanizing other
people that are here in America
that are Americans
yeah I mean it's
we have to interrogate
the foundations
of our country when
our country is in such turmoil
and such chaos
no country in the world
has the mass shootings that we have
no country in the world has
some of the polarization
that we have we have to interrogate that
and say what it is that we're doing wrong
that's leading to that
and I think again that
it's reaching a point where it's unsustainable
if we don't do
better
and try to solve
some of the rifts right now
that exist in our society
then we're going to end up in
you know in a place where
we may not be able to
climb out of this
what do you think about
the Muslim ban what do you think about
Executive Order 13769
title protecting the nation
from foreign terrorist entry
into the United States
often referred to as the Muslim ban
or the Trump travel ban
it was an executive order
by President Trump that was in effect
from January 27, 2017
for just a few months
until March 6, 2017
what was this executive order
and what was it's effect
on your life and on the life
of the Muslim community
and just the life of Americans
well
it was disgraceful
it was a
tactic that was used
you know at the time
very similar to the whole build the wall rhetoric
to
play to a particular political
sloganeering and
carrying out those types of acts
against the Muslim community
you're not going to face
much
opposition typically in any meaningful
way that would be politically costly
when he rolled it out
at the time
there were people in flight
on their way to the United States
that were held in airports around the country
children
elderly people
that were held in these small rooms
and treated
awfully before being put back on a plane
and sent to where they were
there were families that had medical needs
that were never able to
come together
he specifically targeted Muslim countries
to play to that idea
of a complete ban
of Muslims which he knew was not feasible
at the time
now personally
Dallas had the largest
amount, the largest number
of detainees
in the airport
we have one of the largest airports in America
and
we took to the airport
and we stayed there for a few days
stayed overnight
it was one of the New York Times pictures of the year
when we did our prayer
because when we had to do our prayer
it wasn't just Muslims that came to the airport
it was many people that came to the airport
of different fates that were outraged
by what they had seen
so when we do our prayer
there was a protest chant that
you pray we stay
and so the airport had to
make room for us because
there were like a thousand people that needed to have our five daily prayers
so
we would do our prayers in the airport, we waited
we continued
until
the detainees were freed
at least temporarily
unfortunately some elements of that legislation
remained and it was an ongoing
struggle
but what I'll say is that those are some of the more obvious
manifestations of
anti-Muslim bigotry
but
again, there's hypocrisy
on all sides of the political isle
here in the United States
there is Islamophobia of different flavors
I think even the term Islamophobia
can become contentious because there are people
that attack us in different ways
and that might not be as overtly
bigoted but nonetheless
are infringing on our rights
to be full American Muslims
and Muslims find themselves
in a very strange political place
where
you've got one side that
seemingly wants to annihilate you
and another side that only
accepts you
if you're willing to assimilate
but no one really allows
you to be a full on American Muslim
and so Muslims find themselves in a very strange
place right now
with all of the political
sides with the political parties
where do Muslims sit politically
are they politically engaged
in the function of the United States
where they find themselves politically as a community
so
Muslims find themselves in an awkward
place politically that's the best way
to put it we
are a religious community
and so we don't find
ourselves welcomed
by the left which
has a hostility towards religion
in most left spaces and most liberal
spaces in general because it's
kind of religion has
many conservative elements
so the Muslim community is in its nature
conservative for what that's worth right
it's a conservative community
it's a community that has
certain orthodoxies and practices
that
could make it disagreeable
in its nature and its practice
to many on the left
and many on the right just
see us as a group of foreigners
and a threat in that regard
so
we find ourselves in this awkward place
there's also the
presence of sort of the pro-Israel
dominance of both parties
the foreign policy of both parties
is detrimental to Muslims globally
the
privatization of the Muslim community
and the name of countering by an extremism
unfortunately the Muslim community
has had both Republican and Democratic
administrations just run over to
rights so we find ourselves
kind of in this awkward space
right we are a religious community
that's also a minority
the racialization
of the Muslim community
sort of robs us of who we are
and how we get to engage them
with different platforms
and different peoples
around us so
we find ourselves in a very awkward place
Is there in general a lack
of representation
in places of power
in politics?
I don't think representation is everything
I think that representation can actually
be detrimental sometimes because
you can have people that
represent you
but that don't actually represent
your priorities as a community
so we don't want to be tokenized as a community
right we want to be engaged
and engage fully as Muslims
and
be respected as American Muslims
you know I wrote something at the time actually
of Muslim ban I wrote an article for CNN
called I am not your American Muslim
I am not your American Muslim
because we are not a tool
of liberals against conservatives
nor are we
simply to be made out to be
your villain or your victim
where a people of faith
where people
that have values
where people that want to see
our places of worship thrive
where people that have something to offer
to this country
to the people around us of good
but ultimately we want to
engage and
be engaged with on the basis
of who we actually are
not who you need us to be right now
and that's been the problem
that we've had so it's not
a lack of representation
as much as a lack of authentic engagement
you mentioned
daily prayer
and
if I may looking at the time
this might be time
and if it's okay I would love it
if you allowed me to
follow along at least
in movement
as you pray
absolutely
thank you for allowing me to join you
in that
can you maybe describe
what
what does the prayer represent
what is the actual practice of prayer
like what is the process like
sure so
prayer is the
central pillar if you will of Islam
it is
the life of the believer
encapsulated
into
a very specific act
of devotion that's done
at least 5 times a day
there are different types of prayer
there is supplication
so the 5 daily prayers are called
Salah which is the obligatory prayers
and then beyond that
there are voluntary prayers
that are done throughout the day
as well
so you can pray before and after
the obligatory prayers and then there are other times of the day that you can pray also
and the best prayer
voluntary prayer is at night
in the middle of the night because it's the time that you're closest to God
sincere
away from the eyes of people
just in the still of the night
and you'd pray in a similar way
with the standing and the bowing and the prostration
reciting the Qur'an
and then you have supplication and words of remembrance
that you are to do throughout the day
between all of that
so when people say do you pray 5 times a day
I say at least 5 times a day
where is this application
do they come from the Qur'an or do they come from your heart
or where do they come from
so basically you say
which means I'm going to kill you
right
or so they say
God is greater
you start off with that
an expression of God's greatness
and then you recite the opening chapter of the Qur'an
which is known as Al-Fatiha
it's the first chapter of the Qur'an
in the name of God the most compassionate
all praises be to God
the Lord of all the worlds
most compassionate, most merciful
master of the day of judgment
you alone we worship and from you alone we seek help
guide us to the straight path
the path of those who have earned your favor
not those who have earned your wrath
nor those who have gone astray
so that's a translation of the first chapter
the opening chapter of the Qur'an
which is known as Al-Fatiha
so we recite that in every one of the units of prayer
and then after that
so some other portion of the Qur'an
and then we say Allahu Akbar
once again
God is greater, we go into bowing
and in bowing we say
Subhana Rabbia Al-Azim
which means
glory be to God
the Almighty
glory be to God the Almighty
and then you come back up
and you say
God has heard the one who has praised him
and then
the response is
and then we go into prostration
and prostration is at the heart of the prayer
and it is the most
beautiful
portion of the prayer and it is
the most beloved position
for a servant of God
and that which is most pleasing to God
it's when you
say at that point
Subhana Rabbia Al-Azim
all glory be to God the Most High
all glory be to God the Most High
so while you put yourself in the lowest position
you acknowledge
God being the Most High
and the Prophet peace and blessings be upon him
said that the closest that a person is to God
is when they are in prostration
that is the time that your supplications
are most precious and beloved
that is the time that you can
cry your heart out
that is the time that you really feel
a sense of great closeness
to God and as I was telling you earlier
it's a time that your mind
is under your heart for a change right
the only position, physical position
that your mind is actually under your heart
and you really have a chance to pour your emotions out
and to connect deeply to God
it's the prayer of all of the prophets
Jesus peace be upon him
is described even biblically
as falling on his face in prayer
and so it really is
I think the most intimate moment
that you get with God
and the deepest part of the prayer
the word masjid
which is mosque in Arabic
means place of suju, place of prostration
so think of the rest of prayer
as an introduction to
that particular part of the prayer
where you really immerse yourself
not that you shouldn't be immersed in your prayer
throughout but when you're in suju
when you're in prostration
that's where you're really closest and most connected to God
so we do that
and so some prayers
are two units
well the first prayer of the day
which is before sunrise
the earliest prayer is two units
the second prayer
which is around noon
is four units
and then afternoon another four units
and then the sunset prayer is three units
and then the evening prayer is four units
so each prayer has
a different number of units to it
and some voluntary prayers that surround it
when you come back up
you express also
a form of greeting towards God
and channeling your prayers
and your blessings towards God
you reiterate the Shahada
which is the first pillar of Islam
I testify that there is only one God
and that Muhammad is his servant and messenger
and then you read what's called
Salah Ibrahimiyah
which is the Abrahamic prayer
so you send peace and blessings upon Muhammad
and his family and Abraham and his family
Abraham peace be upon him
peace be upon him is really at the core of this religion
and so at the prayer
at the end of the prayer you send
peace and blessings and prayers upon
again both Muhammad and his family
and Abraham and his family
and then you have another chance to make some of your own personal prayers
and then you say
peace be on to you and the mercy of God
to your right
peace be on to you and the mercy of God
to your left and that means everything and everyone
to your right
to your left so you imagine a congregation
when you're in worship
you're sending that to
the angels and the human beings
your fellow worshipers next to you
and you'll even say
you'll seek forgiveness from God afterwards
there are supplications that surround the prayer
and you will say
Allahumma anta as-salam wa minka as-salam
that O Allah O God
you are peace and from you is peace
and to you belongs all glory
and all praise
almost to say that you received
something in this prayer
that you receive a great sense of inner peace
and now you're spreading that
as it really comes into you
then you can give
to the world around you what you generate in your own heart
and in prayer
you generate a great sense of tranquility
a great sense of peace
the Quran says
in the remembrance of God do hearts find
contentment
and prayer is
nice in the remembrance of God
that is again
obligatory five times a day
no matter where you are
anywhere in the world
anywhere you find yourself in your life
in different life circumstances
anywhere
outside the coffee shop in the grass
outside the coffee shop
as we did a few days ago
so anywhere at all
and that means
given the context of our previous conversation
of
hatred towards
people of Muslim faith
that means
you probably through the practice of prayer
it attracts people that hate
I've attracted curiosity
I've had people walk up to me like hey man you okay
you know in the air
so most probably is conversations
of curiosity and the opportunity
to actually
talk about the values that you're upset
and I try to make it a point to tell people
I'm about to pray in front of them
so like in an airport let's say for example
I'll go to the corner next to a gate
and if there are people sitting there like hey
I'm about to engage in a prayer
I hope you don't mind they'll really appreciate the courtesy
most of the time
but no I mean
when those five times come in
and they're kind of windows right
we have to pray
and
that means at work that means at school
that means when you're traveling
there are those that allow you to combine prayers
at certain times
when you're traveling for example
but even then
you're going to have to pray
and I think that
what that does
to
bring you back to God
no matter what you're doing
it's actually
you know think of it this way
you're in a meeting
you're engaged in something
and you also have the evolution before the prayer
where you wash up
wash your face, wash your limbs
and engage in prayer
what it does for you
in anchoring you in
something more meaningful
when you are in the turmoil
of a lot of times what's not so meaningful
is incredible
and so it's a gift from God
and
it is an obligation
it's something that we have to do as Muslims
but
if you actually learn its essence then
it can feel
more like a joy than it is an obligation
and then you're a call to at night
especially again the night prayer
is a big part of who we are as Muslims
waking up in the last part of the night
the Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him said that the
the best prayer
and the best fasting was of that of David
peace be upon him so we think of David
the Prophet David, he's a prophet in Islam as well
I'm sure you'll ask me about the whole concept
of prophethood
you're hearing Abraham and David and others
so David peace be upon him he said that
David used to fast
every other day and he used to pray
the last third of the night
he'd stand up and pray in the last third of the night
so fasting
is a big part of who we are
and praying in the last third of the night
meaning
before that early morning prayer
waking up if you can at 4am, 430am, 5am
and
praying even for a few minutes
there's something
in the serenity of the night
that
can unlock in you
a sense of inner joy and peace
that nothing else in the world can give you
and again that pulls you away
from all the turmoil of day to day life
if it's
little things or if it's big things
it just pulls you out of it
to remember what is
more important in life
so when we think about access
in the last third of the night
we're taught that God says
is there anyone seeking forgiveness that I may forgive them
is there anyone seeking refuge
that I may grant it to them
is there anyone asking for anything
that I may give it to them
so whatever you're calling upon him with at that time
he's responding to you
in a way that befits him
and so
it's closeness as well
and
you would think that you sleep less
so you're probably
more cranky but
the happiest people in the world are the people that
stand up in that last third of the night and pray
I mean there's a deeply
meditative, contemplative
aspect to it that I
think probably
strengthens your sleep
if anything else once you return to it
there you go see if people underestimate that
there was a great sage in Islam he was asked
how come the people who pray
at night are
the most beautiful of people
and they're fresh in the day it doesn't make
sense and he said because they secluded
themselves with the most merciful and he
dressed them in his light
and so
there's a beauty that it generates
and that's why
we're to aspire to that really as believers
that's kind of your highest thing like don't
just pray the five prayers if you can pray at night
pray at night and connect at that time
good friend of mine Andrew Huberman who's in your
scientist from Stanford he's a big
he's an amazing podcast
called Huberman Lab
but he's also a scholar of sleep
among many other things
and so I would love him to
he probably knows the science on this too
there's probably good
science that actually studies
practicing Muslims to see what
the benefits to sleep
I would love to actually
see what that says
amazing I don't want to cut you off
we have amazing hygiene because of how much we have to
wash up for prayer
and it's great for our limbs as well
you know and that's one of the
added benefits right it's good for us
worship that we do
is not torturous it's actually good for us
however the core objective of worship
has to remain that it's
something you do out of worship
and something you do out of a sense of obligation
gratitude to God not because
of those things like I'm not going to fast
because it's good for my health
but I know it's good for my health to fast
but it's pretty cool when you walk into
I'll share this with you there was a man
he was a scholar from Turkey
an Islamic scholar from Turkey
and he had visited us in Dallas
and he was 108 years old
and he could still pray
bowing and prostrating
I mean his limbs and you think about that
like someone at that age still being able to do that
so I'm sure it's good for your limbs
good for your health, good for your gut
I think the mind one is
the really one we've been talking about
and that's really the big one
in the small day to day psychological sense
and in the big philosophical sense
of what it means to be a human being
we should also mention that
during the prayer
as you've explained you
should face Mecca
so what is Mecca
and what's the experience
of visiting Mecca like
so Mecca
is the home
that Abraham peace be upon him
built along with his son Ishmael
peace be upon him
and it gives the Muslims
a unified direction of prayer
it's sort of
at the center geographically
of
who we are
and when we pray
towards it
it's not that
it's not that that's the only
place that you can supplicate turn towards
but it gives us a unified sense of direction
it gives us a unified sense of prayer
so
Mecca is
our Qibla
it's our place of direction
when we are alive and when we are dead
so actually we pray facing towards it
when we die we are also faced towards it in our graves
and it kind of gives us that unifying spirit
so this is
the value of Mecca
also in the Bible
and
where other Biblical scholars would also mention
Mount Peron
and it is the place
that Adam
in the Quran
Adam peace be upon him first had
a place constructed there as a place of worship
from the angels
towards God and then when Abraham
settles Hagar
and Ishmael in Mecca
they build this house of worship
and that is where
the gushing springs
of Zamzam are mentioned
where God sends an angel
to
give a miracle to Hagar and Ishmael
that they can sustain themselves from
as they're not left in the desert
so Ishmael being the first born son
of Abraham
is given a place
and there's a story and a history that's going to unfold
from that place of Mecca
and then Isaac is born
peace be upon him 13 years later
and there's a story and a history
that comes from that but ultimately
Mecca is
the center Mecca is where we turn
towards for prayer Mecca is
where we perform the pilgrimage
the Hajj pilgrimage
once in our lives at least
if we can physically and financially
if we find ourselves capable we at least perform
the Hajj pilgrimage once in our lifetimes
but there are other
pilgrimages throughout the year
you can go
any time of the day
any time of the year you will find people
that will be performing the pilgrimage
an iteration
of the pilgrimage in Mecca
and it's
an incredible practice
it really is a place where
you feel like
you're no longer in this world
I mean it's incredible
so we all go there donning
what's known as the Ahram garb
so the man will wear
just these white
garments which are
resembling
they resemble the garments that we will be
buried in
and whether you're a king
or a prince or a peasant
in classical terms
whoever you are
whatever distinction you have
you're all the same and the women will wear
a simple garment as well
so you go there
you relinquish all of
the pretensions
and concerns
and superficial barriers
and distinctions
that exist in this life
and we do what's called Tawaf
circle around the Kaaba
symbolically putting God
at the center of our lives
we
do seven rounds between Safa and Marwa
the two mountains where Hagar
when she once ran
between those two mountains with her baby Ishmael
looking for water trusting God
was provided for we too
go between the two mountains
of Safa and Marwa to express that trust
in God and to follow in that way
and these are ultimately these are the rituals
that Abraham himself
engaged in
in our tradition
and the Prophet Muhammad
peace be upon him engaged in and so we engage
in the exact same rituals and there are divine
wisdoms to them that we may not even
be able to unpack and reflect
upon but it really is in that
place where
you find
the most beautiful global
expression of Islam you see people from all
over the world people that don't
speak the same languages people from all
sorts of backgrounds and they're all doing the exact
same thing and in a matter of seconds
when the call of prayer comes
in a matter of seconds
two three million people get arranged
in perfect rows for prayer
right and it just it looks like
this perfect optical
you know
vision of just beauty
when you see people in unison
standing bowing prostrating
and you don't know who the person next to
you is and that's where
you know you you know Malcolm X
you read about the history Malcolm X when he went to
Hajj that's where his entire world
you shifts
not just his previous
baggage
but
the dream
that he then had
the possibilities
that he saw for people
to be able to overcome some of the false
distinctions that we have
race and class
and to see
God as one and to
come together
and worship him alone and also
see in each other equal participants in that
worship if you can just linger
on it a little bit
I think you've mentioned
that Malcolm X has been
in part misunderstood
what are some aspects of him that are
misunderstood I think reading his
autobiography is
extremely important for anyone that
wants to understand him right so you read him
his own words Malcolm
lived the tragedy of
being a young
disenfranchised
black man in America who went through
all of the difficulties
that were posed
in a 1950s America
towards him
I mean he went through the system and it was
awful for him and he had
to pull himself out of that and make himself
into
an incredible orator and incredible leader
that suddenly
had a pretty empowering vision
and a calm and
nonetheless courageous but a calm
presence to him
and was able to
bring together people
especially uplift black people in America
to believe in themselves
young men
in America in prisons
in particular will read the autobiography
of Malcolm X and see hope for themselves
to come out of
the darkness
of being in prison
not just by the bars
in front of them
but also by
what they thought to be
prior to that moment
and so Malcolm climbs out of
that and he goes through multiple
phases so
Malcolm dies as an Orthodox Muslim
who
does not believe in the superiority
of one race over the other
finds
great tranquility
in the practice of the Hajj
great clarity
and I think you read his letters from Mecca
and he talks about his
transformation in particular
and it was a process
for him
but he inspires the likes of Muhammad Ali
to become the person that he becomes
and inspires many other people
till today
to really
see themselves and see the world
differently in light of that
understanding of monotheism
so he was deeply
a man of faith
and throughout his life
has changed
as he grew as he
interacted with
I would say a cruel society
that he was living for
you mentioned he inspired
Muhammad Ali
who I don't think is an overstatement
to say is probably
the most, quite possibly the most
famous American
Muslim from America
could you maybe make a few comments
as an athlete yourself
about
what impact
did Islam have
on Muhammad Ali's life
and vice versa
what impact did he have as a leader
as a religious figure
on the Muslim community
I think Muhammad Ali
his quotes on Islam
are precious because he talks about
how he sought the wealth of this world
and he found it in Islam
he found a greater meaning
to his faith
his
sense of strength and commitment
the willingness
to take a stand
for the truth
when it was extremely unpopular
on the basis of his faith
and on the basis of his integrity
I think that
he inspired people with his confidence
and
his coherence
I mean he was incredibly eloquent
I mean poetic
and just unwavering
seemed unbreakable
so as relentless as he was
in the ring
he was even more so outside of the ring
the man could not be broken
and everything was stacked up against him
but he perseveres
and he does so then
through Parkinson's
and chooses to live a life
of giving
a life of service
a life of using his platform
to bring up issues of importance
and to champion the rights of others
so he wasn't satisfied
at any point in his life
with simply being a boxing great
a boxing champion
he uses it for so much more
and so he goes down as one of the most famous
Americans period of the 20th century
one of the most transformative Americans period
of the 20th century, not just American Muslims
and a lot of people
that loved him when he died
would not have loved him
if they were around in the 1960s
in the 1970s
they said they loved him when he couldn't speak anymore
many of those who celebrated him
at the time of his death
would have been his greatest opponents
at the peak of his career
and when he was taking the stands that he was taking
he was fearless
and part of his faith was helping him
to take the stands
but throughout all of it
given the strength I think
he's also a symbol of compassion
through all the fun
kind of
the poetic nature of who he was
and the fearless nature of who he was
there's always like a deep love
for the sport
and for humanity
absolutely and that's the thing right
it was so obvious that
despite everything that had happened to him
he loses himself
neither to the fame
nor to the fear
he always stays himself
he's authentic
and you know when I went to his funeral
and it was one of the most beautiful
things I've ever seen
because everyone
in Louisville, Kentucky
had a story with Muhammad Ali
the guy that he saves
from committing suicide
the school kids
the shuttle driver
the gas station worker
everyone has a story of Muhammad Ali
in Louisville, Kentucky
and when he passes away
everybody comes out
and stands in front of their homes
and they take
the casket and they drive around the streets of Louisville
and he had this dream
I'm very close to some of his
some of his children
incredible people by the way
just incredible human beings
his dream that he shared with them
that he was jogging
around the streets of Louisville, Kentucky
and everyone
had come out to wave to him
and so he's running around
jogging and waving to everybody
in the streets of Louisville, Kentucky
then he gets to the cemetery
and he says he flies into the heavens
so his dream
and he had this dream years ago
and if you look at his funeral
it's such a beautiful
you can't make it up
it's such a beautiful moment
where it seems to come to reality
because everybody in Louisville just comes out
and just waves by his casket
and then when he gets to the cemetery
the gates close and
he goes off to be with his lord
and we pray that it's a good place for him
so Muhammad Ali is probably
one of the great 20th century representatives
of Islam
for me personally at least
hopefully I'm not showing my bias
one of the great modern representatives
is Khabib Narmangimadov
who's a great fighter and a great human being
so you've gotten a chance to meet him
I should also say
you're good friends with a lot of
really interesting Muslim people
I mean it's such
a widespread religion
there's just so much variety of different people
that are practicing Muslims
so what
does Khabib represent
what do you like about him as a Muslim
what do you like about him as a person
as representative of the religion
I think Khabib
first of all he is a great person
you know
humble person
and now Islam as well
kind of following in that they're really showing
the beauty of faith in their lives
their culture, their values
everything from the way
that he carried himself in a principled way
you know like
every Muslim kid grew up
in a public school cafeteria
before Islamic schools were a thing in the United States
not eating pork for example
and kind of being the odd person out
so when you got a fighter
in the UFC scene
and doesn't drink alcohol
kind of maintains
like a very
consistent
principled
you know
attachment to his religion
it really is inspiring
growing up we had Hakim Al-Ajwan in the 1990s
basketball who was fasting in the NBA
I think Khabib is that
for a lot of people a lot of young people today
and people in general and I think beyond that
the values
how he honored his father
and how he honors his mother
and how he continues to put family first
that's a beautiful part of Islam
that's a beautiful part of our value system
we have a lot of emphasis on family
family is
central to Islam
and his honoring of his father
was so beautiful
and again
what he's willing to do for his mother
you know it's just so beautiful
and I think that
we saw it frankly even with Morocco
in the World Cup
you know there is a lot of Islamophobia
in this recent World Cup
episode you know a lot of
the criticism of Qatar
while no government is beyond reproach
certainly no government is beyond reproach
but had very obvious
blatant Islamophobic undertones
and then with Morocco rising
being the first African Muslim
Arab team
to get that far in the World Cup
what did you see beyond the consistent
honoring of Palestine
you also saw the honoring of the mothers
every single time the game would end
they go into a prostration of gratitude
so just like we prostrate in prayer
a prostration of gratitude
and then they go and they kiss their mother's
foreheads dance with their mothers on the field
hug their moms and honor their moms
that's Islam for you
Habib after his fight
what does he do he prostrates
he points up to the heavens it's God
and then he prostrates
the whole Moroccan team
beautifully prostrates
even when they lost
they prostrated out of gratitude
for their mothers
so I think sometimes athletes are able
to demonstrate
some of these beautiful values of Islam
in a way that the world can maybe see them
in a different light
the values of humility
and the values of love
love broadly but love for family
and look how everyone around Habib talks
about him
no one ever says
he's a jerk no one ever says
he's mistreated them
beautiful Muslim does
beautiful human being
you treat the people in such a way
that all these stories come out later
of how good you were
to everyone that came into contact with you
and Habib was that person
he is that person he does a great job
of treating people with a lot of respect
obviously no one is
perfect right I mean
imperfections are for everybody but
I definitely think that
he did a beautiful job representing
his faith in those moments
beyond punching people in the face
that's kind of a different subject
smashing faces
not the smashing faces part
the prostration part and the humility
I tell you man
he's not humble in the ring right
he would maul his opponents right
I mean as a practitioner
as a fan of the sport
of all grappling sports for me
there's also a beauty to the art
of grappling and the fighting sports
but yes
I think his
humility, his honor
outside the cage
is exemplary
and the money, the fame
the power hasn't changed the man
no not at all and that's actually
I think the most beautiful part when I met him
I found him to be
as humble
as he is on screen
and that's always very endearing
and all of the stories of the people
that have been around him for a much longer time
very humble man
I pray for him, honestly I pray for Islam
I pray for that family
that God keeps them grounded and protected
and together
and that they maintain that beautiful spirit
because even if you just watch the lead up
to the last fight
with Islam just the way they carry themselves
their day to day
they never relinquish their prayers
they never relinquish their family
ties
the things that make them who they are
to be better fighters because they don't see
that
they have to let go of those things
in fact they attribute all of their worldly success
to that
that faith and so
beautiful examples and I think that
it's good for young Muslims
to see themselves in that
and it's good for other people to see Islam
through that as well
when you mention the prophets
you often say
peace and blessings be upon them
what does that phrase
mean
why do you say it
is it to celebrate the people
is it a constant reminder
that these are figures that should be celebrated
absolutely so it's part of our tradition
that when we say the name of a prophet
at least the first time in the conversation
we say peace be upon him
and then afterwards
it's still praise worthy
to say peace be upon him
so if you're reading an Islamic article
and you see in parentheses
PBUH
peace be upon him
when I was in high school I often tell this story
I wrote an article about Jesus peace be upon him
in Islam and Christianity
and my teacher comes up to me
and she says you can't do that
and I said what and she slams the paper on the desk
she says you can't say Jesus
pff
and I said no no
PBUH peace be upon him
so that's what it means
and something that we reserve for the prophets
of God
and we honor them with
so who is Muhammad
so the prophet Muhammad
peace be upon him is the
descendant of Abraham peace be upon him
through Ishmael
God promises
Hagar and Ishmael
that he will make of him a great nation
and so there are prophets
that are descended from Isaac
and then from
the brothers of Isaac comes
the prophet Muhammad
and he is the final prophet
of a long line of prophets and we do not distinguish
between the prophets in regards
to their role
and so Islam has a very accessible
theology it's something that resonates
with
a professor at an Ivy League
university and
a person who may be even
illiterate this idea of one God that
sent many prophets and all of the prophets
had a singular message worship
one God and respond
to the messages of that one God
through his messengers so
Adam
through Muhammad you have
many of the prophets that are mentioned in the Old Testament
Moses peace
be upon him being the most spoken about prophet
in the Quran in fact Abraham
Jesus peace
be upon him many of these prophets
that are familiar
to people all of them are considered prophets
and Islam the prophet Muhammad
peace be upon him being the last of them
he comes at a time
where there was still
a lot of confusion
about what the world had just
encountered in Christ
in Jesus Christ peace be upon him so
you got to think about it this way that this is still
you know he's
born in the sixth century
there is still
great debate about
who Jesus was the council of
Nicaea happens in the fourth century
where you kind of have a standardizing
of western Christianity
but then you have eastern Christians
that are still maintaining very different
theologies and very different conceptions of Christ
there is no Arabic
Bible at the time
and
he kind of brings together
the
message and the mission
of all of those prophets and it fits perfectly
into
a singular
string of thought
where you don't have to reject Jesus
peace be upon him but Islam also
is staunchly opposed to the idea of a trinity
the idea of a begotten son of God
that all of the conceptions of the Messiah
and there were many claimants of the Messiah
prior to Christ peace be upon him
none of them included
the idea of a trinity or of him actually
being a part of God himself
a begotten son of God but rather a great
and mighty prophet
that would restore glory
on earth so he
he really captures
theologically
or rather we would say
God captures through him theologically
a coherence and a unifying
message of all of the prophets
that there's only one God
and that that God has sent
messages
and scriptures
to ultimately guide people back towards him
and that all of the prophets are equal
in the sight of God there's no distinction
between them
and that we are
to live our lives
in accordance with the message
as best manifested by the messenger
and so the prophets are exemplary
human beings and this is where we
kind of sometimes maybe have
a difference you know someone will say
well
Noah did this and David did this
as Muslims we don't believe
we don't hold many of the stories
that have been attributed to these prophets
to be true
we don't believe that the prophets are capable
of major sins we believe they're exemplary
human beings and that they kind of
give us a manifestation
of the scriptures that they were sent with
of how to live noble lives
and the most documented human being in history
is the prophet Muhammad
peace be upon him we know everything about him
his family life
his day to day the way he would greet you
the way he'd look at you everything about his physical appearance
it's documented in
immaculate detail and Muslims have a standard
that they then
seek to live up to
with how to treat your family
how to be in your community
how to be in your worship how to be in your social interactions
how to carry yourself
with your neighbors it's a full
complete
book through his example
where
we have the Quran which is the word of God
and then you have the biography
of the prophet Muhammad peace be upon him
which is a living
manifestation
of that word that has been documented
for us to live by until the
end of time
so Muhammad
if I may peace be upon him
is really the
like you said the manifestation the thing to be
the example of a good man
yes example of a good human being
is the Quran the word of God
so the Quran and this is what distinguishes
the Quran in many ways
from other scriptures
so as Muslims we do believe
that God has sent divine
revelation prior we believe
that the original scriptures
prior to the multiple
versions and
the changes and revisions throughout history
the original scriptures that were given to
the prophets whether it was the
Torah
to Moses or the
gospels were all
original divine revelations
but they have been changed over time
the Quran is the word of God
with a promise that he will guard it for all
of time and it's probably one of the greatest
miracles because in 1400 years
we have
the Quran preserved through
world transmission and through written transmission
and
there are almost 2 billion Muslims in the world
and they all recite this book the exact same way
and there's only one version of it
and so when I'm reciting the Quran
if I say
U or E or A
differently an Ethiopian Muslim
a Chinese Muslim
a Yemeni Muslim can correct me
an 8 year old kid in any one of those
countries can correct me because they will know
that this is not how it's memorized and so it was
memorized from the start
committed to memory
in the time of the Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him
and
preserved in writing
and passed down and memorized
by millions and millions of people around the
world and it's
600 pages
and you can't go to a city in America
a city in the United States
of America and not
find at least one person or a group
of people that memorize it
that have committed it to memory and so there's
an emphasis on committing it to memory
as well as understanding
it and applying it and practicing
it as much as we can
what are some
maybe
deep or insightful
differences between
the Quran the Torah and the Bible
well like I said
so you've got the original revelations
of those scriptures but there are
so many versions of those scriptures and there are
times throughout history where
there have been changes just from an objective
perspective right
what is the original scripture
that was given to
Moses peace be upon him
and what was initially
communicated to Jesus peace be upon him those
things
have changed over time
however
there's still some truth
that remains even in those scriptures and so
there are still things that
line up especially with the Old Testament
and
Islam there's still many things that
line up between the two
the Bible as well
the New Testament now
Matthew, Mark, Luke and John it's
different because these are not
original scriptures these are
testimonies that were obviously collected
around
the entire phenomenon of the coming of Christ
but the authors themselves the biographies
the documentation even of those
original testimonies and gospels
what made the cut
in terms of being included within the gospels
and what didn't because there are many gospels
at the time in that sense is different
from what we believe was scripture
communicated to Jesus peace be upon him
the Quran
is different in
several ways but
it confirms
what came before it but it's the
documented and preserved word of God to be recited
throughout time
so it confirms much of what came before it
and
it resides amongst us and within us
for
the rest of time and through it
we honor
those revelations that came through
the prophets of old
because
the essence the core of what came through
those revelations is preserved in the Quran
and with us and I tell people this
all the time that
the prophet Muhammad peace be upon him
introduced
Jesus peace be upon him
and even
Moses peace be upon him to much of
the world
there are Muslims around the world
that are named Isa that are named Jesus
there are Muslims around the world that are named
Ibrahim Abraham Muslims around the world
named Musa and they learned
of these figures through
the revelation that came to the prophet Muhammad
peace be upon him
Mariam
one of the most popular names in Islam
Mary peace be upon her
whole chapter in the Quran named after
Mariam which is actually
what I was reciting in the prayer
was the chapter of Mariam the chapter of the story
of Mary peace be upon her
so the Quran contains the stories
it contains
legislation
and law but primarily
it was revealed over 23 years so it actually
was coming in accordance with some of the
events that were unfolding in the life of the prophet Muhammad peace be upon him
the first
13 years of that
was primarily belief in God
belief in the hereafter
and things that surrounded
the core creed of Islam and then
legislation law
stories of the prophets
came down in accordance with the unfolding
events as well as prophesizing
some of the things that were to come
and speaking about some of the things that
just happened and it is completed
in the lifetime of the prophet Muhammad peace be upon him
memorized and then communicated to generation
after generation after generation
so that we have it in its pristine fashion
now billions of people
just
all across the world all the different cultures
all memorizing the same words
one of the pillars
or maybe I should say one of the central
practices is the month of Ramadan
what is the importance
of this month
what does the
process of it entail also
so Islam has I think it would be good
to maybe lay this out for people
the articles of faith in the pillar of Islam
so the articles of faith or six articles
of faith in this kind of lays the foundation
for the creed of Islam
so belief in God
belief in the angels
belief in the messages
belief in the messengers
belief in the day of judgment
and belief in divine decree
these are the six articles of faith
belief in God
belief in the angels
belief in the messages being the scriptures
belief in the messengers being the prophets
belief in the day of judgment
and belief in divine decree
that's what you have to believe to be a Muslim
you have to believe in those six things
right and then you go to
the pillars of faith
the five pillars of faith
are sort of
or they make up the structure
of those articles of faith
the practice of the Muslim
so to be a Muslim
you testify
that there's only one God
worthy of worship and unconditional
obedience and then you testify that Muhammad
is the final messenger of God
that's the first pillar it's the actual
testimony entering into Islam
then it's the five daily prayers
practicing the five daily prayers at least
as a bare minimum obligation
the mandatory charity
which is called the zakat
that Muslims have to give at least 2.5%
of their retained earnings
to specific categories of charity
then it is
the fasting of the month of Ramadan
the mandatory fasting of the month of Ramadan
and then it's the Hajj
if you can do so
the pilgrimage if you can do so once in your lifetime
so those are the five pillars of Islam
so Ramadan
is a month in which
Muslims engage in this incredible spiritual
boot camp
now fasting can mean different things to different
people
when we fast
we fast from before sunrise to sunset
for an entire month
and there's no food or water
period
and no intimacy as well
so you would abstain from intimacy with your spouse as well
in that time
no food or water, no bread, no nothing
you don't eat or drink even if you live in Texas
where you get these long
hot days in the summer
and of course Islam is on a lunar calendar
so it moves every year
about 10 days earlier
during that time
you restrict
the intake
to the body
so that you can focus on the intake of the soul
so instead of being focused on consumption
constant consumption
you are consuming words of remembrance
words of prayer
you're to be hyper conscious of not doing anything
spiritually validate your fast
just as you would physically
so just like you won't eat or drink
you certainly won't engage in sin
though you shouldn't engage in sins throughout the year
but
you're not going to speak
words of evil
you're not going to gossip or slander
you try to fast with your eyes
not look at things that are not praise worthy
so you try to engage
in a wholesome act
of disciplining yourself
with the consciousness of God
but then channel that
into engaging the soul instead
exercising the soul instead
and what you'll find with Muslims
and this act of God consciousness
where they reduce the consumption
is they become far more grateful for the blessings of God
because throughout our lives we just take sips of water
we eat what we can we snack
when
you're abstaining from that
you become so much more grateful for that sip of water
so much more grateful for that bite of food
so much more aware of the one who provided those blessings to you
so much more aware of those that don't have
the same access to those blessings that you have
so you also develop
a sense of empathy for the poor
that don't have access to those blessings on a regular basis
that can't help but fast
and on top of that again
spiritually
you are engaged in extra reading
at that time people are listening
to more lectures
people are engaged in
extra acts of devotion
Muslims are most charitable
in the month of Ramadan
so you just feel great
and it's hard to explain to someone that doesn't do it
because it sounds like torture to people
what in the world are you doing
at four o'clock on a hot Texas day
not eating or drinking
you're probably dehydrated and cranky
have a caffeine headache
you probably can't wait for this month to be over
but in reality you talk to Muslims
their favorite time of the year is Ramadan
you feel amazing
absolutely incredible
because you taste a different type of consumption
you feed your soul for a change
and in that process
you connect
with God in a way
that you simply could not
without the distractions of the day to day throughout the year
now it's good that it's one month of the year
because it's honestly
physically taxing
it gives you a chance
to experience it for that one month
but then you're encouraged to fast a few days
for that one month of the year
as well outside of the month of Ramadan
to keep that connection
what are the hardest parts
that maybe
for people outside of
the Muslim faith
yeah
would be curious about
well I think the hardest part is
physically
is it physical or is it the spiritual
I mean
so as Ramadan goes on
your acts of worship increase
so in the last 10 nights of Ramadan
there is
an intense
period of prayer throughout the night
so every night in Ramadan we have something called
the Tadawih prayers
the Tadawih prayers are about an hour hour and a half of prayer
outside of the five daily prayers
so the mosques are packed every night in Ramadan
the last 10 nights of Ramadan
people will engage
in prayer throughout the entire night
so the only sleep that you're probably getting
is actually a couple of hours in the morning
before you go to work
so it's everything sort of put together
the
disruption of schedule, the disruption of diet
the physically exerting yourself
but
the way you feel
is unmatched
I mean you feel so fulfilled
through that
deprivation and it's actually the point
it all ties back together when you talk about
even tests and trials
that God does not
deprive us of anything except that he gives us something greater
in return
and you do not deprive yourself of anything
for the sake of God
except that he gives you something greater in return
and so fasting is an exercise
and patience that unlocks
an infinite sense of gratitude
and a greater connection to God
so many people predict that
Islam will surpass Christianity
as the largest religion
at the end of the century
by the number of its adherents
and practitioners
what responsibility does that place on people like you
who is a
religious leader, who is somebody who teaches
who grows, who cares for the community
for the Muslim community but actually for all people
I think what that means is that
we have a
responsibility to
teach and live our faith
in the most beautiful of ways that
its values
and ideals
are not just expressed
by you but experienced by everyone around you
and so
what I often teach my community is that
look if a Muslim is in the area
what are your neighbors
experiencing of you
what are people experiencing of you
there are statistics to Muslims
being the most charitable communities
in America
we're a community of great service
a community of volunteering
a community that is the world around us
I think that oftentimes people forget the history
of Muslims
being at the forefront of contributing
in the areas of medicine and science
and all sorts of ways
education really changing the world
through their commitment to faith
but on a deeply
personal level
you know
it's important for us
to be representatives
of the Prophet Muhammad
upon him in a way that makes Islamophobia
impossible
I tell people this
that it's very hard
you mentioned the United States of Hate
the documentary and
the one man the protester
who met me and sort of changed
his world view
it's very hard for
people to believe
what they hear about Islam
if they see you live it
now that does not excuse bigotry
excuse the prejudice against Muslims
but
it's important for us
to sort of take it as
a responsibility as Muslims
to channel our faith in the most beautiful
of ways
God describes faith in the Quran
in the chapter of Abraham peace be upon him
as a tree with firm foundations
the firm foundation being the
testimony of faith the oneness of God
so the tree of monotheism with firm foundations
and then branches high in the sky
providing shade to everything
and everyone around you
and producing fruit at all times
the tree of faith of a Muslim
is not seasonal
so you should be producing
with your faith at all times
good works and things that
people can actually experience
and I think that Muslims
have historically contributed to the world around them
and I think that Muslims today
are still contributing to the world around them
but I think that
we can never
do enough of holding ourselves
accountable to the message
that we hold dear to our hearts
and trying to be the best
representatives of that message
and of that messenger
to the world around us
so not only are you a
religious leader in the Muslim community
but you have a lot of friends
who are from
different religions
you have a lot of Jewish friends
as we've talked about
a lot offline
and we'll probably hopefully get a chance
to talk to as well here
but on that topic let me bring up
another tragic event
that was just a little bit less
than a year ago in this very community
here in Dallas
there was a synagogue hostage crisis
can you describe what happened
and what was your experience like
through it and afterwards
and what were the bad
things you saw
and what are the good things you saw
in the community
The Collieville synagogue
situation
it's kind of surreal that we're coming up on a year of that
but I'll actually
tell you exactly what happened that morning
I was out with the family
and that morning
I kid you not
that very morning I was telling my kids
the story of Muhammad Ali talking that man
out of committing suicide
and I showed them the YouTube video
my wife pulled it up on her phone
kids were sitting in the back seat
we talked about that video
and talked about that importance of
helping people
we also went to visit a loved one
in the cemetery that day
and we went to breakfast so we're out as a family that day
and there's a lot of meaning
that's sort of coming together
for us and a lot of discussion
deep discussion we're having as a family
and then some of our community groups
we get this message that
there's a synagogue
that's been taken
hostage
a rabbi in his congregation taken as hostages
and
go to this Facebook link and it was the feed
of the synagogue
and you could hear the gunman
shouting
and it became apparent
very early on that
it was a man that was claiming to be Muslim
that was holding them hostage
now all these
synagogue massacres
all these places of worship
we're not attacked by Muslims
this is
a different type of situation
but
my first instinct
was
like all that happened this morning was not random
so I told my wife
and I told my kids I'm going to go down there
it's a collieville
she was very supportive
obviously there was a moment of shock
and like kids were like
wait what
and I said look remember what we talked about this morning
we can't be indifferent to the stuff
we still go back and revisit that day
you know like it's crazy how it was all falling into place
it's not an accident right
so I dropped them off at home
and I started to drive to collieville
I called the
Irving police department
and I asked them to
call the collieville police department
so that
they could kind of know that I'm coming down there
I called
some of the faith leaders in the community
to see if they could put me in touch
with those on the ground
so that I wouldn't get shot when I showed up there
and eventually
I had to wait outside
until I got clearance to come through
and to just offer whatever support I could
pastoral support
with trying to
free the hostages
of the synagogue at the time
it was operating out of a church right across the street
from the synagogue
a day long just
wondering you know what was going to happen
looking at the family
of the rabbi at the time
wondering what was going to happen
and trying to just
be as supportive as I possibly could
at that time
thankfully
they all got out
in the evening
and I think that
you know
looking back on that day
like my wife actually asked me
would you have done it differently and I said no I really wouldn't
because I think that
things happen sometimes
you've got to act on your good instincts sometimes
we talk about like being calculated
I think sometimes
we're calculated when we shouldn't be
and that's when that good instinct comes in
where you're called to do something else
so
what did it feel like to be a Muslim
in a situation like that
I mean was there
were you a human being, were you a religious
practitioner
I don't see
I can't separate anything about myself
in that situation right so
when I had to pray I had to pray
to help people out
to give people words of comfort
to try to appeal
to the senses of
whoever I could at the time
I didn't see myself
as like
a guy trying to
trying to
show a particular part of
Islam in there I just saw myself as someone
that was trying to help a family
get their husband and father back right
and so it was more of just like that part
of me was there
you can kind of see yourself right
and this is the irony of it
when Christ Church in New Zealand
happened
that was kind of our worst nightmare as Texas Muslims
because we've had armed groups
in front of our mosques threatening to do
what that man did in Christ Church
and so when you see a wife and kids
wondering if they're going to get their dad
back
you kind of see yourself there
and so I just saw myself in that situation
what would I want people to be doing for me in that moment
what would I want people to be telling my family
in that moment
so that's really where I went to
and that's really where I dug into
and I prayed a lot that day
a lot for the right words
for the right actions
what I could do to just help
what are the lessons
now a year later
that you take away from that day
and the days
so many lessons just
don't be indifferent
to the suffering around you
or even that's distant from you
because it's somehow related to you
so just don't be indifferent
so you're proud that you stepped up
and you went there and then
I don't think
I don't think I did much
I'm being really honest
this is not me trying to be humble here
I don't think I did much
at what I was called to do
I wish
that it never happened
as a whole
but I'm glad that the relationships
that have been built over time
came into being in that day
we could call upon people that we knew
call upon each other and as a community
really come together
Dallas has been through a lot
a lot of pain
but we've come together through a lot of pain as well
so it's kind of one of those things
where we're united in our pain
when you suffer together
you build certain bonds together
so Dallas has been through a lot
as a community
but we've come together through a lot
as a community
the thing about violence and war
it destroys
it caused so much suffering
but it also brings out some of the best aspects
of human nature and unites people
it's an interesting way
how our human civilization functions
well that's the beauty that
you don't just want to see but you also want to be
we're living in a climate
where
there's a lot of that
so how do you actually
get through that
and actually
not allow yourself to succumb to that
and be another voice in that polarization
it seems that throughout history
and still in the world today
religion has been a source
of some of the
of a lot of polarization
a lot of conflict even war
why do you think that is
listen I think at the essence of it
is always
some sort of political instability
that leaves behind
a brutalized population
and vulnerabilities
that can be exploited
as I said in the 20th century
with the bloodiest
century that we've had to date
where does religion fall
in any of that where does religion fall in the isms
where does religion fall
in the world wars
where does religion fall
in much of that even when we talk about things
like the crusades remove the Islamic framing
the crusades
the crusades were they really about religion
the Mongols
and the destruction of the Mongols
was it about religion
Myanmar and the Rohingya
today is it about Buddhism
so I think that these are
essentially political
issues political
causes where you have
people that
rise up and that use
religion to disguise
things that are far far far from religion
and if you want to manipulate
a religious scripture you could turn any book
any scripture
into a violent scripture
if you have a violent aim
so I think that that's where you find
people manipulating verses
manipulating religion
to justify sick ideologies
that are based
and thrive
in political instability
so these are fundamentally
political geopolitical conflicts
not religious conflicts
when you talk about a group like ISIS
Islam has been in Iraq
for a very very long time
Iraq has been bombed by now five
consecutive presidents or four
it's been bombed into the
stone ages
there is no political infrastructure
it's devastation and destruction
and desperation as a result of that
many of the old Saddam
loyalists and Saddam's regime
was a secularist regime
are now heads of ISIS
it just moved into that
when you create that type of chaos
you generate
an environment
where groups like ISIS
are bound to rise out of
and so
Islam did not cause this
people didn't wake up in Iraq one day
and say let's create a group called ISIS
because Islam tells us to
Iraq was bombed
into this place
and we have to
not just
free religion
from the responsibility
from having to bear the responsibility
of much of
the hatred and violence
but we have to interrogate
the political
instability that was caused
where we justified
as Americans
these are our taxpayer dollars
where we justified
with what was done in Iraq
do we even know what was done in Iraq
in Afghanistan
these drones that
drop using our tax dollars
under democratic and republican regimes
and
kill
thousands of innocent people
in weddings in Yemen and Somalia
are these justified
and when you think about dehumanization
can the average American name
be victim of the Iraq war
is there a picture that comes to your mind
is there a person
absolutely not because that's the dehumanization
I often talk about Dr. Martin Luther King Jr
his progression
as a faith leader
in America as a political leader in America
Dr. King was deeply unpopular
when he took a stand on Vietnam
and he mentions how first
he had to see
Vietnam
through the lens of the soldiers
that were lost American soldiers
right and that was
a crime that they were sent to fight a war
that they should not have been sent to fight
and
there was an injustice that was done towards them
he said but things really changed
when he started to see it from the other side of the bullet
when he started to see the world
through Vietnam
through the Vietnamese child
and that's where he resorted
to breaking the silence
that's where he changed his tune
we dehumanize our victims so much
that they're not even relevant to our discourse
until they become
able villains
to our story
and then now they're attacking us because they hate us
now they're blowing us up because they hate us
their religion tells them to do this to us
what have we allowed
to be done to them
using our tax dollars
in our name
so I think that we have to
interrogate
the political chaos that was caused
not just
free religion
from the groups that were created
but what was done
to those countries and what continues to be done
in many of these places
when
the pride that people had
about America
where everybody came together after 9-11
and there was all the American flags
that was beautiful to see
but then you have to transfer that
and I wish
all of us Americans
could go and see
the daughters that would lose their parents
the parents that would lose their daughters and sons
because bombs dropped
the
thousands, the tens of thousands
of civilians that died
in Afghanistan and in Iraq
because of the decisions
made
in the name of politics
like if we just met those families
if we empathize with them
and just put ourselves in their place
it's impossible
not to feel hate
for America, for everybody
I visited Ukraine
and spoke to a lot of Ukrainians
and they said
there's
loved ones that are Russians before the war
but now
all they have is hate
and if you ask many of them
will they ever forgive
the regime
not the soldiers
will they ever forgive Russians
many of them say never
and that never
feels like it's a generational
never
I mean look
you think about this
if your grandparents were
wiped out in a drone attack
your parents
your brothers, your sisters, all of your loved ones
and you're missing a leg in an eye
and the world does not take you into consideration
you'll never be seen or considered
in the halls of Congress or discussed
what are you going to grow up with
right
but the thing is
is that we should not be speaking about this
only from the standpoint of oh shoot
they're going to grow up and hate us
we should be thinking about what was done to them
and hate that
despise that
that it's ugly
you see when people carry out a terrorist attack
considering
the lives of the civilians
in these places
so those that perpetrate the 9-11 attacks
are not seeing
the thousands of people that they killed
the human beings, the lives
many of whom are Muslim by the way
actually no one of them was a very active Muslim
in the Islamic circle of North America
I mean
they didn't see those stories right
when you drop a bomb
on this many people
and you say oops collateral damage
we were looking for one person
killed 40 people
and there's no count
no names
nothing that can be recalled in the American memory
that's a problem
a fundamental issue with how we treat
the rest of the world
right so
I'm an American
I think that I'm responsible
to the extent that I have to critique these policies
and I have to try to
you know challenge
America to deal with the world differently
and when I go overseas
when I'm around Muslims
in the Muslim world right in the Middle East
and in the Muslim world
you know I have to
I'm speaking as a Palestinian
American Muslim
who grew up in south Louisiana
I've got a complex
background here right a lot of experiences
here that I'm grateful for because they all
contribute
to
who I am and what I know
and what I've been I think they're all enriching
I wouldn't relinquish
the Palestinian part
I wouldn't relinquish the American part
and I certainly wouldn't relinquish the Muslim part
but it's helping people
consider
what they're not seeing
and when you can dehumanize entire groups of people
to where you can
reduce them to chalk
casualty counts
and not be able to recall a single story
then
you have to take a step back and ask yourself
what are we becoming
not a single victim
of Afghanistan or Iraq
millions of people
not a single person
can the average American
conjure in their head
if you apply
this to a very difficult topic
in Israel and Palestine
speaking of which right
you have been critical of the policies
of the state of Israel
but as we've mentioned
very supportive of Jewish people
you have a lot of friends
rabbis and
Jews in general
here in Dallas and across the world
what is the difference to you
in that part of the world
between politics and religion
so in this case
Judaism
both terms broadly defined
both terms broadly defined
so I say that because
those terms
there's technical definitions
and there's how they're popularly used
and so you have to be kind of
just like we said with Islamophobia
these terms
they become politicized
so just generally speaking
I think Zionism
has to do with
politics and Judaism has to do with
the religion.
It's a great complexity like to a lot of people
like wait a minute
and you got to take a step back and wonder
why there are so many Zionist anti-Semites
in America
and there are so many anti-Zionists
who are far from being anti-Semites
anti-Zionism that are opposed
to the ideology that are opposed
to the implications of it
look I think
that it's fundamentally secular
when you think about it
there is an ethno supremacism
there is
I am the child of
Palestinians that were forcibly displaced
from their land
I've never been able to go to where my parents
my grandparents are from
I've never been able to see that land
I've never been able to access that
I have cousins that I'll never be
well I shouldn't say never
God willing I will meet them
but that I've only been able to speak through
FaceTime, Zoom
I think that
it's important for us
to separate
criticism of Israel's policies
from
anti-Semitism in fact it's an injustice
it
cheapens anti-Semitism
when you
throw every person
who is opposed to Zionism
or opposed to Israel's policies
being anti-Semites
it's wrong it cheapens it
it doesn't do justice to it
and
I think it's important for us to have a meaningful
conversation about
America's support for Israel
listen there are terms
that are important here so I'm going to throw out
these big terms right?
apartheid, occupation
ethnic cleansing
these are terms
that are legal terms
and there are objective
thresholds here
for apartheid, occupation
ethnic cleansing
the threshold of apartheid
has been crossed
according to
multiple the most respectable
human rights organizations in the world
these are the organizations that you will champion
and that you will use
in every single other conflict
to justify your own policies
but that threshold of apartheid has been passed
according to Human Rights Watch
according to Amstey International
according to the Harvard Law Review
the threshold of apartheid has been crossed
there's a legal terminology there
two sets of laws for two separate people
you have a displaced people
that are forcibly
being removed
that are being treated differently
that are stateless
that are
undergoing daily humiliation
that live behind an apartheid wall
that are routinely bombarded
that have lost their ability
to free movement
that have lost their ability to access
to basic necessities of human life
there are legal definitions here
I don't see how any objective human being
can read those reports on apartheid
and the threshold crossed for apartheid
and walk away from that and say
that this is just Jews and Muslims that don't like each other
there's a legal definition here
occupation
when Israel was created in 1948
you will find many Jews
who are opposed to Zionism
and I think this is important
to talk to Jews
who are opposed to Zionism
and they are many
that will say that we were told
that it was a land without a people
for a people without a land
the problem with that was
there were people there
our ancestors
750,000 Palestinians expelled
in the Nakaba
Palestinians that have been removed
and harassed
that are treated in horrific ways
and the occupation is expanding
it is an illegal occupation
the settlements are still expanding
and the United States
enables that occupation
with its funding
with its unconditional support
unwavering support of Israel
and it does so
in a way that completely
undermines any of its claims
to being a beacon of freedom
in the world
because it is in plain sight now
that the world can see
what is happening in Sheikh Jarrah
what is happening in Jerusalem
everything that flies in the face
of any claim to wanting a peaceful solution
the children in Gaza
when I talk about dehumanization
the children that were on the face
of the New York Times
which is historically one of the most anti-Palestinian
newspapers in America
in places of the children of Gaza
America
and many parts of the world are now seeing it
we have been saying
for a very long time
this is apartheid, this is an occupation
this is an injustice
the world needs to check it, hold it accountable
South Africa
which experienced apartheid
Nelson Mandela, Desmond Tutu
all of those that fought apartheid in South Africa
said that Palestinians
and that the same strategies that check the apartheid
in South Africa need to be used
to hold Israel accountable
for apartheid
with the Palestinians
it's impossible for us
as Palestinians
to simply say
that we should give up
on this cause
because all the odds are stacked against us
but when you have
videos coming out
with Israeli armies
spewing skunk water
skunk water
sewage water on worshipers leaving Al-Aqsa
far-right leaders
now taking the government
and the so-called only democracy in the Middle East
prohibiting a Palestinian flag
being raised anywhere around
American reporters
Palestinian American Christian
reporter
one of the most prominent journalists in the Middle East
shot in the face
plain sight
and all America could say was
all the American government could say was
if it turns out
that it's indeed Israel
that Israel is responsible for the death of an American journalist
then we will hold them accountable
nothing
not a peep
it was a shame
to see that happen and it just solidified
to us
whether it's a Democratic president
or a Republican president
unfortunately the support for
Israel is enabling
it to continue
to wipe out
the Palestinian population
from its historic land
and so
we see that happening and
I'll say this as well
people ask me about the Abraham Accords
they say, you know
you are
talking about faith between
are you talking about peace between communities of faith
and protecting communities of faith
why are you opposed to the Abraham Accords
I think that the name of Abraham
should not be used
and I wrote an article called why I opposed the Abraham Accords
the name of Abraham should not be used to justify arms deals
that only further disenfranchise
the abused population of the Palestinians
where
you have quote unquote Muslim regimes
making peace with Israel and that's being used
against
Palestinian people who are
only further disenfranchised
from having a voice in their own fate
for the sake of American arms deals
and security
and economic benefits
it's despicable it's repulsive
talk to the people
speak to people on the ground there
see what's happening with your own two eyes
and think about the injustice where
our tax payer
dollars are being used
to suppress a people and what
legally meets the definition
by every objective standard of apartheid
of occupation
of ethnic cleansing
and it's ongoing and it's happening in real time
and it's becoming more blatant
with
a regime now that's unapologetic of even
expressing
what the policies have already
done and that is the
removal of a people
forcible removal of a people because
the government knows that
the United States support is unconditional
do you have hope
that Jews, Muslims and Christians
on this land will
live in peace one day
together? have a basic
respect for each other's humanity
look
this isn't a religious conflict
I think that's fundamentally one of the problems
so even the question is not the
correct question? it's not the correct question
this is not
a religious conflict, yes religion
is invoked, yes there are
religious elements
but
there are many Jews
that are opposed
to what is happening right now towards the Palestinians
many and I would recommend
you know a serious
discussion with even people whose perspectives
have grown Peter Bynert being
an example
Rabbi Simone Zimmerman
started if not now
Betheslem, an Israeli human rights
organization that also classed it as apartheid
recently, there are many Jews that are opposed
to what is happening right now
Palestinians are also not exclusively a Muslim
population, Shireen Abou Akhla was Christian
there are many Palestinian
Christians that are also
being denied entry into their historic
churches and that are completely
bewildered
or absolutely lost
in regards to why
American evangelicals
have this ironclad support
for the occupation
and have ignored the plight of Palestinian Christians
of course I believe
Muslims Christians and Jews can coexist
of course I have hope
because I have to have hope as a person of faith
but as much hope as I have
I think there is a great sense of urgency
for people to open their eyes
learn
what is actually happening on the ground
read the reports
stop letting these
commentators and these
companies that
are able to generate propaganda
own the narrative
there are objective standards here
there are objective measures
of oppression
that need to be considered here
what is happening to Gaza
is one of the greatest atrocities of our time
learn about it
I tell people to just watch the vice
documentaries for example the mini documentaries
I sent them to you as well
inside the battle for Jerusalem
think about it a guy from Long Island New York
can fly
to Israel
right?
fly in the Tel Aviv
and walk into a home
that has been occupied by families for generations
and throw the people out under the full protection
of the military there
and spit on them
historic homes
and when people come up to me and say
Islamophobia
we're post Islamophobia but they support that
I tell you you're not a post Islamophobia
how can you be a post Islamophobia
when you traffic in the same
framings
and dehumanization
that
enables the viciousness towards
Muslims here and Palestinians over there
that they do not deserve
to be treated like equal human beings
like full human beings
and that based on historic claims
they can fly from New York
into a historic neighborhood in Jerusalem
and kick out generational families
with military guns next to them
what does that sound like? how's that normal?
right?
and so I think that if people take the time to read
people take the time to investigate
then
they come to this conclusion
themselves that this is unacceptable
and that you can't put
and this is one of the problems with the framing
of Israel Palestine
if you're equating occupier and occupied
you're equating the two sides
of the conflict
and it's not a conflict it's an occupation
there is such a disparity of power
here
that you cannot equate the two sides
you know Malcolm X
would say you clip the bird's wing
and then blame it for not flying as high
as you do
you can't do that to a people and just equate them
with their occupier
it's an atrocity
it requires us to challenge it
and I'm hopeful
at the current movement
of Muslims Christians and Jews
and people of all faiths
that are saying enough is enough
that thresholds have been crossed here
that this isn't atrocity that cannot continue
you know
this is very
personal to me because this is happening now
what I anticipate
and this is what America did
in the United States
what I anticipate is that
10 years from now, 20 years from now
every American will say
how could we have supported this
and this was terrible
and we'll pay symbolic
homage to the Palestinian cause
but there are people now
that are clinging on for dear life
access to their places of worship
access to their generational homes
right now
there are children that are in detention
and there's a bill in congress
to just stop
wherever you stand on this issue
child detainment
child detainment, child detention
should be a red line
congresswoman Betty McCullum
has put this bill on the floor of congress
she can't even get that passed
just to at least censure
child detainment
by the IDF
so
people need to look into this
deeper
they need to
consider the human element of this
and consider the urgency of it as well
with this new regime
it's only going to unfortunately get
much worse in the immediate term
so we have to do something about it
if I may ask you for some advice
for a reason I'll explain
maybe in a little bit
or maybe I should just explain now
which is I think
because you've talked about Islamophobia
because you've been at the center
of
so many catastrophic events
because you sort of jump into the fire
to try to help people
you've been attacked a lot
just in general
you've been under stress
you're not immune to stress
so part of me wants to ask
just
how psychologically difficult it's been
and where you draw strength
and would you advise
if the opportunity is there
for a person like me
for a silly kid in a suit
to go to that part of the world
and take seriously conversations
I would divide it into two categories
there's leaders and there's people
the leaders are sort of these
political entities
that have their interests
but they also have power
and they want to hold on to power
and then people are just
regular people that have
families that just want to
have basic rights and freedoms
and continue to love their families
to pursue different jobs
and careers and lives that they can flourish
and so on those are very kind of
different dynamics of play
and if given an opportunity
to speak to leaders for me
would you advise
I do it or not
but when I say leaders I mean
leaders that
would make the case
the pro-zionist case
and the
anti-zionist case
and in both cases I would
make it a very challenging conversations
for both of them unlike today
our conversation today
you're an inspiring, incredible person
I'm a huge fan of yours
you've spread so much love to the
Muslim community here
just everybody loves you
not everybody
yes that's true
not everybody
but a lot of people love you
yes but this was
kind of an inspiring and a positive conversation
it wasn't very challenging
although we did touch
challenging topics and you did
exceptionally well there but I would do
very challenging conversations with those leaders
in that part of the world is that a bad idea
alright let me tell you from now
first and foremost
the first part because I don't want to lose
the first part of your conversation
is it psychologically
stressful? very
very
but when you're
when you're a person of faith
and you believe that
good work will always be rewarded
and that doing the right thing will always
be rewarded eventually
you're able to
weather that storm
quite a bit
so your wife told you
that's the second thing
that's the second thing I was going to mention
is honestly supportive a supportive family
you know my dad's 80 man
and he's been through a lot
he was born in 1943
5 years before Israel was even created
he was born in Palestine
and for displacement he has
been around the world and somehow
built himself up to be
a distinguished professor of chemistry
an author an inventor
you know
grew up taking on
some of the most difficult challenges and was just always
a man of principle I always
admired my dad being a man of principle
and like he just tells me man stay the course
stay the course don't be afraid don't back down
I have a supportive family I have a supportive wife
I've got supportive kids so I have amazing
people around me that keep me grounded
for sure and
ultimately obviously faith
and also I'll say this slander
doesn't stand what do you mean by that
when people slander you
and it kind of comes with the territory of a public
figure it's not
going to stand throughout time because
eventually any sincere person will find
the truth and the only
people that will regurgitate that will continue
to do so so when I get portrayed
as an anti-Semite
because of my strong takes on
Israel and challenging Israel and I will
continue to do so
it takes just
people in doubt like we know him what are you talking about
you know so slander
doesn't stand at least with the people that are important
to you it might reside on
the internet it might have great rankings
and social media bots that give
attraction but ultimately
psychologically difficult to you to have that
yes it is difficult it's very
difficult and it's hurtful
especially when it comes from
quarters that you would hope that it
doesn't come from
but you know you take a step back
you re-evaluate
you lean into your faith
and you lean on the people that are closest to you
and then you keep going
you learn the lessons
could I be doing something better
could I be doing something different could I be saying something
better could I be saying something different
are the noble causes that I
want to achieve am I doing
justice by those causes
how do I grow out of this right
you become wiser through these
things as well
second part of your question though about what you should
do if you're going to talk to people
talk to people
from a place of inquiry I would say talk
to people more so than leaders
and especially some of those who have
been erased from the
media commentary Benjamin Netanyahu gets a lot
of airtime
here in the United States
he's
well spoken
he speaks perfect English he's an American as well
I would
challenge him on
some of the things that he has said and done
he has an ongoing
corruption case I think that
I think he's a fascist
I think that he's a person
who has done much evil I think that he has a lot
of blood on his hands and I think that
one day he will be prosecuted
for that but I'd say
talk to people on the ground
and people that have been erased talk to the
families that are being displaced
I don't care about the political leadership
but much rather you talk to the people
on the ground in East Jerusalem
that have been displaced
the families talk to Palestinian Christians
talk to the sister of
Lina Abu Akla who has been
who was
extremely disappointed and let down
when Joe Biden
went to the region
and did not take her calls
did not meet her which was an absolutely disgraceful
move he should have met with her
she's the sister of an American journalist
who was murdered in cold blood
talk to Lina Abu Akla
talk to Mithri Rahid
Mithri interesting person for example
he's a Lutheran
he's the head of the Lutheran church in Palestine
he comes to Dallas sometimes and talks about the
plight of Palestinian Christians
I think if you're talking to people in leadership
you know obviously
there are some that will be able to represent themselves
in English you know Hanan Ashrawi
is a very eloquent person for example
I don't know if you're going to have any luck getting
into Gaza but I'll pray for you
if you do but obviously you know if you want
to talk to everybody you got to talk to everybody man so
well and I also want to say
this is very important when you say
whitewashing because I've heard this a lot
so also with Ukraine and Russia
there's an interesting line between whitewashing
which is something
you definitely should not do
and a deep empathy
for
a large number of human beings
it's a really tricky line
to walk and I also disagree with you about
well I think
I don't know if it's a disagreement but
I think I disagree about leaders
I think I agree 100%
that the most important people are the people on the ground
but
I think those are extremely
important people to understand
not just as leaders but as human beings
too
and in many cases to have a challenging
conversation but from
a place of empathy for an understanding
of human being
so if you plan to talk to right wing
the current leadership of Israel
my only request to you
is
talk to the victims themselves
not the Palestinian Authority
talk to the victims
I know you want to
talk to the victims themselves
talk to those people that are being thrown out of their homes
and
subjected to the daily humiliation
go to a checkpoint and walk through the checkpoint
the way that a Palestinian walks through a checkpoint
and tell me that's not apartheid
walk through that checkpoint
crammed in in cages and tell me it's not apartheid
so I think you're a very sincere person
I think you're gonna do your best
I'll be praying for you
some of these things are harder than others
but yes I feel like we're
in the middle of a negotiation and we've come to a point
where we both agree
everyone deserves to be
not everyone deserves to be
but I think there's great value and benefit
let me say I agree with you
in hearing people
even
hearing them
so that you can properly deconstruct
and decipher what you're hearing
but just think of the voices that don't get heard
and a lot of times what's been done to the Muslim world is
and what's being done right now in the name of the Abraham Accords
what's wrong with the Palestinians
the other Arabs are making peace with them
let me tell you something
those regimes that are signing on to the Abraham Accords
the people are not happy
but they're terrified
of challenging those regimes
so if you go talk to the leaders
of some of these countries that have signed on to the Abraham Accords
and that are
in some twisted way
making this about religion
and peace
you can greatly
skew
the narrative
to where Palestinians are just
an inherently disagreeable people that don't want peace
they just want to live in their homes
they just want to live
as full equal human beings
they want the things that everybody wants
and
they're only being further disenfranchised
in the name of peace now
because voices are being amplified
in the name of peace
that are suffocating voices for justice
you said hope
as a man of faith you have hope
what gives you hope about
this part of the world
and our world in general
when you look across
and see so much conflict
so much division happening
so
I think
that if you look through history
we have been through points as a world
where
we almost
we're not going to exist anymore
if you lived in the time
of the Crusades
if you lived
in some of these darker moments of history
World War I, World War II
you probably thought you weren't going to come out of this
as a world
of open God
and I have hope
that godly people
people that are devoted to God
and people of righteousness
can shift things
with his help
I also
believe that younger people
I hope they'll be different
I think younger people
hopefully
or using the word hope a lot
you might hear insha'Allah
if you're willing
we'll see
the path that we're heading
and
we'll seek to disrupt
this
bleak trajectory
and bring it back to something else
so here's the thing
we live in a time of hyper exposure
that hyper exposure could paralyze you
or it could empower you
it could
make you completely shut down and say
what's the point of
even trying
to help these people out
why even talk about the Palestinians
you got these people here
the Uyghurs, the Rohingya
you got what's happening
in Honduras, Guatemala, El Salvador
Brazil, South America
Africa, Ethiopia
Somalia, it's so much
and it can be overwhelming
to a person who cares
but you ultimately
that the difference that you can make
can
become a much greater difference
even if it's after your lifetime
I'll tell you actually a story that
I remember the first time when it says Syria
Syrian refugee camps
and you deal with people
in this deeply human way
for me the most clarifying parts
of the world are the refugee camps
it's where I feel the most clarity in life
about what I'm supposed to be doing
in life
you go to the refugee camps
and then after interacting with these people
maybe giving a few people some
trailer homes and some food
and something to sustain themselves
some coats and blankets
you drive out of the refugee camps
back to where you're staying
and the camps get bigger and bigger and bigger
and the people get smaller and smaller
and smaller and smaller
but then you realize
that it might be that that small section
that I touched
is going to be the change that affects all of them
what's going to happen
to that 12 year old boy
that has
seen the horrors
of this world
and that is absolutely committed
to uplifting
his people and bringing about a change
being responsible for the plight
of his people and so when I look
at any section
of devastation in the world
you never know which part of it that you're going to touch
that's going to change everything
by the grace of God, by the help of God
so you keep trying to do your part
the Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him said
that the most beloved of deeds to God
are the consistent ones even if they're small
that small act of charity
that small smile, that small act of kindness
that small prayer
might go a long way
if he blesses it
so keep chipping away
chipping away, chipping away
be paralyzed by the scale of the division
just
chip away at it
small step at a time
I suppose all of us can do that
young people can do that
just one person at a time try to help
absolutely
Omar you're an incredible person
you're an inspiration
I think you mentioned
you came to Dallas for a podcast
and instead you got a friend
so it's an honor
to be
your new friend
and I think it's time to go pray
I hope it's okay that I join you
at least in movement
in prayer
thank you so much I appreciate you coming down
He said
Salamu alayya yawmaw ritw wa yawm wa ma mutw wa yawm wa uba'a thul haiyyah
Allah
Allah
Allah
Salamu alaykum wa rahmatullah
Salam
Salam
Salam
Alright
Thanks so much
You sure you don't want to come back? Do a round too?
Sure
Thank you
Great having you here
Thanks for listening to this conversation with Omar Suleiman
To support this podcast, please check out our sponsors in the description
And now, let me leave you with some words from Muhammad Ali
Impossible is just a big word thrown around by small men
Who find it easier to live in a world they've been given
Than to explore the power they have to change it
Impossible is not a fact
It's an opinion
Impossible is not a declaration
It's a dare
Thank you for listening
And hope to see you next time