Hardship will show you who your real friends are.
That's for sure.
Can you read the quote once more?
Don't eat with people you wouldn't starve with.
The following is a conversation with Andrew Huberman,
his fifth time on the podcast.
He is the host of the Huberman Lab podcast
and is an amazing scientist, teacher, human being,
and someone I'm grateful to be able to call a close friend.
Also, he has a book coming out next year
that you should pre-order now called Protocols,
an Operating Manual for the Human Body.
This is the Lex Huberman Podcast.
To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description.
And now, dear friends, here's Andrew Huberman.
You think there's ever going to be a day
when you walk away from podcasting?
Definitely.
I mean, I came up within
and then on the periphery of skateboard culture.
And for the record, I was not a great skateboarder.
I always have to say that
because skateboarders are relentless
if you call something you didn't do or whatever.
I mean, I could do a few things
and I loved the community
and I still have a lot of friends in that community.
Jim Thiebo at Deluxe, you can look him up.
He's kind of the man behind the whole scene.
I know Tony Hawk, Danny Way, all these guys.
I got to see them come up and get big and stay big in many cases,
start huge companies like Danny and Colin McKay's our DC.
Some people have a long life in something, some don't.
But one thing I observed and learned a lot from in skateboarding
at the level of observing the skateboarders
and then the ones that started companies.
And then what I also observed in science and still observe is
you do it for a while.
You do it at the highest possible level for you.
And then at some point you pivot
and you start supporting the young talent coming in.
In fact, the greatest scientists,
people like Richard Axel, Catherine Duloc,
there are many other labs in neuroscience,
Carl Deisteroff.
They're not just known for doing great science.
They're known for mentoring some of the best scientists
that then go on to start their own labs.
And I think in podcasting,
I am very fortunate.
I got in in a fairly early wave, not the earliest wave,
but thanks to your suggestion of doing a podcast,
fairly early wave.
And I'll continue to go as long as it feels right.
And I feel like I'm doing good in the world
and providing good,
but I'm already starting to scout talent.
My company that I started with, Rob Moore, SciCom Media,
there's a couple other guys in there too,
Mike Blayback, our photographer, Ian Mackey,
Chris Ray, Martin Phobes.
We are a company that produces podcasts.
Right now that's Huberman Lab podcast,
but we're launching a new podcast,
Perform with Dr. Andy Galpin.
Nice.
And we want to do more of that kind of thing,
finding a really great talent,
highly qualified people, credentialed people.
And I've got a new kind of obsession
with scouring the internet,
looking for the young talent in science,
in health and related fields.
And so will there be a final episode of the HLP?
Yeah.
I mean, bullet buster cancer aside,
someday they'll be the very last
and thank you for your interest in science
and I'll clip out.
Yeah.
I love the idea of walking away
and not be dramatic about it.
Right.
When it feels right,
you can leave and you can come back
whenever the fuck you want.
Right.
Jon Stewart did this well with The Daily Show.
I think that was during the 2016 election
when everybody wanted him to stay on
and he just walked away.
Dave Chappelle, for different reasons,
walked away.
Disappeared, came back.
Gave away so much money.
Didn't care.
And then came back and was doing like stand-up
in the park in the middle of nowhere.
Genius.
You have Khabib who, undefeated,
walks away at the very top of a sport.
Is he coming back?
No.
He's done.
At least we don't know.
Yeah.
Right.
You don't know.
I don't know if you know.
Bears everywhere are worried.
Yeah, I think, you know,
it's always a call.
You know, the last few years
have been tremendous growth.
We launched in January 2021
and even this last year, 2024,
has been huge growth,
you know, in all sorts of ways.
It's been wild.
And we have some short-form content planned,
30-minute shorter episodes
that really distill down the critical elements.
We're also thinking about moving to other venues
besides podcasting.
So there's always the thought and the discussion.
But when it comes to like when to hang up your cleats,
you know, it's like there just comes a natural time
where you can do more to mentor the next generation coming in
than focusing on self.
And so there will come a time for that.
And I think it's critical.
I mean, again, I saw this in skateboarding.
Like Danny and Colin and Danny's brother,
Damon, started DC with Ken Block,
the driver who unfortunately passed away
a little while ago, rally car driver.
And they eventually sold it, I think,
to Quicksilver or something like that.
But they're all phenomenal talents
in their respective areas.
But they brought in the next,
you know, the next line of amazing riders,
the Plan B thing, you know, Paul Rodriguez.
For skateboarders, they know who this is.
Now in science, there are scientists
like Feynman, for instance.
I don't know if anyone can name
one of his mentor offspring.
So there are scientists who are phenomenal,
like beyond world-class, right?
Multi-generational world-class
who don't make good mentors.
I'm not saying he wasn't a good mentor,
but that's not what he's known for.
And then there are scientists
who are known for being excellent scientists
and great mentors.
And I think there's no higher celebration
to be had at the end of one's career
if you can look back and be like,
hey, I put some really important knowledge
into the world.
People made use of that knowledge.
And guess what?
You spawned all these other scientific offspring
or sport offspring or podcast offspring.
I mean, in some ways, we look to Rogan
and to some of the other earlier podcasts.
It's like they paved the way.
Rhonda Patrick, first science podcast out there.
So, you know, eventually the baton passes.
But fortunately right now, everybody's active
and it feels really good.
Yeah, well, you're talking about the healthy way to do it,
but there's also a different kind of way
where you have somebody like Grisha Grigori Perlman,
the mathematician who refused to accept the Fields Medal.
So he's one of the greatest living mathematicians
and he just walked away from mathematics
and rejected the Fields Medal.
What did he do after he left mathematics?
Life.
Private.
100%.
I respect that.
He's become essentially a recluse.
These photos of him looking very broke,
like he could use the money.
He turned away the money.
He turned away everything.
You know, there's...
You just have to listen to the inner voice.
You have to listen to yourself
and make the decisions that don't make any sense
for the rest of the world and make sense to you.
Bob Dylan didn't show up to pick up his Nobel Peace Prize.
That's punk.
Yeah.
He probably grew in notoriety for that.
Maybe he just doesn't like going to Sweden,
but it seemed like it would be a fun trip.
I think they do it in a nice time of year.
But hey, that's his right.
He earned that right.
I think the best artists aren't doing it for the prize.
They aren't doing it for the fame or the money.
They're doing it because they love the art.
Yeah, that's the Rick Rubin thing.
You got to verb it through,
download your inner thing.
I don't think we've talked about this obsession that I have
about how Rick has this way of being very, very still in his body,
but keeping his mind very active as a practice.
I went and spent some time with him in Italy last June,
and we would tread water in his pool in the morning
and listen to History of Rock and Roll and 100 songs.
Amazing podcast, by the way.
It is.
Yeah, and then he would spend a fair amount of time
during the day in this meditative state
where his mind is very active, body very still.
And then Carl Deisteroth, when he came on my podcast,
talked about how he forces himself to sit still
and think in complete sentences
late at night after his kids go to sleep.
And there's a state of mind, rapid eye movement sleep,
where your body is completely paralyzed
and the mind is extremely active.
And people credit rapid eye movement sleep
with some of the more elaborate, emotion-filled dreams
and the source of many ideas.
And there are other examples.
Einstein, people described him as taking walks
around the Princeton campus, then pausing,
and would ask him what was going on
and the idea that his mind was continuing
to churn forward at a high rate.
So, you know, this is far from controlled studies,
but we're talking about some incredible minds
and creatives who have a practice of stilling the body
while keeping the mind deliberately very active,
very similar to rapid eye movement sleep.
And then there are a lot of people who also report,
you know, great ideas coming to them
in the shower while running.
And so it can be the opposite as well,
where the body is very active
and the mind is perhaps more on
kind of like a default mode network,
not really focusing on any one specific thing.
You know, interesting,
there's a bunch of physicists
and mathematicians I've talked to.
They talk about sleep deprivation
and going crazy hours through the night,
obsessively pursuing a thing.
And then the solution to the problem comes
when they finally get rest.
And we know, we just did this six episode
special series on sleep with Matt Walker.
We know that when you deprive yourself of sleep
and then you get sleep,
you get a rebound in rapid eye movement sleep.
You get a higher percentage
of rapid eye movement sleep.
And Matt talks about this in the podcast
and he did an episode on sleep and creativity,
sleep and memory.
And rapid eye movement sleep
comes up multiple times in that series.
There's also some very interesting stuff
about cannabis withdrawal
and rapid eye movement sleep.
People are coming off cannabis
often will suffer from insomnia,
but when they finally do start sleeping,
they like dream like crazy.
Cannabis is a very controversial topic right now.
Oh yeah, I saw that.
What happened?
There's a bunch of drama
around an episode you did on cannabis.
Yeah, we did an episode about cannabis,
talked about the health benefits
and the potential risks, right?
It's neither here nor there.
It depends on the person,
depends on the age,
depends on genetic background,
a number of other things.
We published that episode well over a year ago
and it had no issues online, so to speak.
And then a clip of it was put to X
where the real action occurs,
as you know, your favorite box.
Yeah, the four-ounce gloves
as opposed to the 16-ounce gloves
that is X versus Instagram or YouTube.
There was kind of an immediate dogpile
from a few people in the cannabis research field.
The PhDs and MDs, yeah.
There were people on our side,
there were people not on our side.
I mean, you know,
the statement that got things riled up the most
was this notion that for certain individuals,
there's a high potential for inducing psychosis
with high THC-containing cannabis.
For certain individuals, not all.
That sparked some issues.
There was really a split.
You know, you see this in different fields.
There was one person in particular
who came out swinging with language
that, in my opinion,
is not like of the sort that you would use
at a university venue,
especially among colleagues.
But that's fine.
You know, we're all grownups.
Well, for me, from my perspective,
it was strangely rude.
And it had an air of like elitism
that to me was at the source
of the problem during COVID
that led to the distrust of science
and the popularization of disrespecting science
because so many scientists spoke
with an arrogance and a douchebaggery
that I wish we would have a little bit less of.
Yeah, it's tough
because most academics don't understand
that people outside the university system
are, they're not familiar
with like the inner workings of science
and the culture.
And so you have to be very careful
how you present
when you're a university professor.
And when, yeah, so, you know,
he came out swinging
in some, you know,
a four-letter word type language
and he was obviously upset about it.
So I simply said what I would say anywhere,
which was, hey, look,
come on the podcast, let's chat.
And why don't you give your,
tell me where I'm wrong
and let's discuss.
And fortunately he agreed.
And initially he said,
well, no, how can I be sure
you're not going to misrepresent me?
And so I said,
we got on a DM,
then an email,
then eventually phone call
and just said, hey, listen,
like you're welcome to record
the whole conversation.
We've never done a gotcha on my podcast
and let's just get to the heart of the matter.
I think this little controversy
is perfect kindling
for a really great discussion.
And he had some other conditions
that we worked out
and I felt like, cool,
like he's really interested.
You get a very different person
on the phone than you do on Twitter.
I will say he's been very collegial
and that conversation is on the schedule.
I said, we'll fly you out.
We'll put you up.
He said, no, he wants to fly himself.
He really wants to make sure
that there's like kind of a space
between I think some of the perception
of science and health podcasts
and the academic community
is that it's all designed
to sell something.
No, we run ads
so it can be free to everyone else.
But I think, look, in the end,
he agreed and I'm excited
for the conversation.
It was interesting
because in the wake of that little exchange,
there's been a bunch of press
from traditional press
about cannabis has now surpassed alcohol
in many cultures
as within the United States
as when I say cultures,
I mean demographics,
the United States
as the drug of choice.
There have been people highlighting
the issues of potential psychosis
and high THC containing.
And so it's kind of interesting
to see how traditional media
is sort of on board
certain elements
that I put forward.
And I think there's some controversy
as to whether or not
the different strains,
the indicas and sativas
are biologically different, et cetera.
So we'll get down into the weeds,
pun intended,
during that one.
And I'm excited.
It's the first time
that we've responded
to a direct criticism online
about scientific content
in a way that really promoted
like, oh, here,
the idea of inviting
a particular guest.
And so it's great.
Let's get a guest
who is expert in cannabis.
I believe,
I could be wrong about this,
but he's a behavioral neuroscientist.
It's slightly different training,
but look,
he seems highly credentialed.
It'd be fun.
And we, you know,
we welcome that kind of exchange.
I deeply-
And I'm not being diplomatic.
I'm just saying,
like, it's cool.
Like, he's coming on.
No, you-
You know,
and he was friendly
on the phone, right?
Like, he literally came out online
and was like,
basically like,
kind of like, F you.
Like, F this and F you.
But you get someone on the phone
and it's like,
hey, how's it going?
And they're like,
oh, yeah, well,
you know,
there was an immediate apology
of like, hey, listen,
I came out.
Normally, I'm like,
not like that,
but online, you know?
Oh, yeah?
You get a different-
Oh, yeah?
Okay, listen.
So it's a little bit like,
it's a little bit like jiu-jitsu, right?
People say all sorts of things,
I guess,
but if they,
if you're like,
all right, well,
let's go,
then it's probably a different story.
You know?
It's not like jiu-jitsu
because in jiu-jitsu,
people don't talk shit
because they know
what the consequences are.
Let me,
let me just say,
on mic and off mic,
you have been very respectful
towards this person.
And I look up to you
and respect you
and admire the fact
that you have been.
That said,
to me,
that guy was being a dick.
And when you graciously,
politely,
invited him on the podcast,
he was still talking down
to you the whole time.
So I really admire
and look forward to
listening to you talk to him,
but I hope others
don't do that.
Like,
you are
a positive,
humble voice
exploring all the interesting
aspects of science.
Like,
you want to learn.
If you've got anything wrong,
you want to learn about it.
The way he was being a dick,
I was just
hurt a little bit,
not because of him,
but because like,
there's some people
I really,
really admire,
brilliant scientists
that are not their best
selves
on Twitter,
on X.
Definitely.
I don't understand
what happens to their brain.
Well,
they regress.
They regress.
And they also are protected.
You know,
when you remove the,
I mean,
no scientific argument
should ever come
to physical blows,
right?
But when you remove
the real world thing
of being right
in front of somebody,
people will throw
all sorts of stones
at a distance,
you know,
and over a wall.
And they've got their,
their wife or their husband
or their boyfriend
or their dog
or their cat
to go cuddle
with them afterwards.
But you get in a room
and it's like,
you know,
confrontational people
in real life
are pretty rare,
but hopefully
if they do it,
they're like willing
to back it up
with knowledge
in this case,
right?
We're not talking
about physical altercation.
Yeah,
he kept coming
and he kept putting
on conditions.
How do I know
you want this?
And I was like,
well,
you can record
the conversation.
How do I know
you want that?
Listen,
we'll pay for you
to come out.
How do you know?
And eventually
he just kind of relented
and to his credit,
you know,
he's agreed to come on.
I mean,
he still has to show up,
but once he does,
you know,
we'll treat him right
like we would
any other guest.
Yeah,
you treat people
really well
and I just hope
that people
are a little bit nicer
on the internet.
Yeah,
well,
you know,
X is an interesting one
because it thickens
your skin,
you know,
just to go on there.
I mean,
you have to be ready
to deal with.
Sure,
but I can still
criticize people
for being douchebags
because like,
that's still not good
inspiring behavior,
like,
especially for scientists
that should be
sort of symbols
of scientific thinking
which requires
intellectual humility.
Humility is a big part
of that
and Twitter
is a good place
to illustrate that.
Yeah.
Years ago,
I used to,
I was a student
in TA,
then instructor
and then directed
a Cold Spring Harbor
course
on visual neuroscience.
These are summer courses
that explore
different topics
and at night
we would host
what we hoped
were battles
in front of the students
where you'd get
two people on a,
you know,
would it be
neural prosthetics
or molecular tools
that would first,
you know,
restore vision
to the blind
kind of arguments.
You know,
kind of like,
it's kind of a silly argument
because it's going to be
a combination of both,
right?
But you'd get
these great arguments
but the arguments
were always
couched in data
and occasionally
you'd get,
somebody would go like,
or would curse
or something,
but it was the rare,
very,
very well-placed,
you know,
insult.
It wasn't,
you know,
coming out swinging.
I think ultimately,
you know,
Twitter's a record
of people's behavior.
The internet
is a record
of people's behavior
and here I'm not
talking about news reports
about people's behavior.
I'm talking about
how people show up
online
is really important.
You've always
carried yourself
with a ton of composure
and respect
and,
you know,
you just,
you would hope
that people would
grow from that example.
Well,
I'll tell you
that the podcasters
that I'm scouting,
it's their energy
but it's also
how they treat
other people,
how they respond
to comments
and,
you know,
we're blessed
to have pretty
significant reach
when we put out
a podcast
like someone else's
podcast,
it goes far and wide.
So,
like a skateboard team,
like a laboratory
where you're selecting
people to be
in your lab,
you want to pick
people that you
would enjoy
working with
and that are collegial.
Etiquette
is lacking nowadays
but you're in
the suit and tie,
you're bringing it back.
Bringing it back.
You said that
your conversation
with James Hollis,
a young psychoanalyst,
had a big impact
on you.
What do you mean?
James Hollis
is a 84-year-old
union psychoanalyst
who's written 17 books
including
Under Saturn's Shadow
which is on
the healing
and trauma of men,
the Eden Project,
excuse me,
which is about
relationships
and creating a life.
I discovered James Hollis
in an online lecture
that was recorded
I think in San Diego,
it's on YouTube,
the audio is terrible,
called Creating a Life
and this was somewhere
in the 2011 to 2015 span,
I can't remember
and I was on my way
to Europe
and I called my girlfriend
at the time,
I was like,
I just found the most
incredible lecture
I've ever heard
and he talks about
the shadow,
he talks about
your developmental
upbringing
and how you either
align with
or go 180 degrees
off your parents'
tendencies and values
in certain areas.
He talked about
the specific questions
to ask of oneself
at different stages
of life,
to live a full life
so it's always been
a dream of mine
to meet him
and to record a podcast
and he wasn't able
to travel
so our team went out
to DC
and sat down with him,
we rarely do that nowadays,
people come to our studio
and he came in,
he had some surgeries
recently
and he kind of came in
with some assistance
from a cane
and then sat down
and just blew my mind.
From start to finish,
he didn't miss a syllable
and every sentence
that he spoke
was like a quotable sentence
with real potency
and actionable items.
I think one of the things
that was most striking
to me was how he said
when we take ourselves
out of stimulus
and response
and we just force ourselves
to spend some time
in the quiet
of our thoughts
while walking
or while seated
or while lying down,
doesn't have to be meditation
but it could be,
that we access
our unconscious mind
in ways that reveals to us
who we really are
and what we really want
and that if we do
that practice repeatedly,
10 minutes a day here,
15 minutes a day there,
that we start
to really touch
into our unique gifts
and the things
that make us each us
and the directions
we need to take
but that so often
we just stay
in stimulus response.
We just do, do, do, do, do,
which is great.
We have to be productive
but we miss those
important messages
and interestingly,
he also put forward
this idea of what is this?
Like get up, shut up,
suit up.
Yeah, something like that.
Like get out of bed,
suit up and shut up
and get to work.
He also has that in him,
kind of a Goggins type mindset.
So be able to turn off
all this self-reflection
and self-analysis
and just get shit done.
Get shit done
but then also
take dedicated time
and stop
and just let stuff geyser
to the surface
from the unconscious mind
and he quotes Shakespeare
and he quotes Jung
and he quotes
everybody through history
with incredible accuracy
and in exactly the way
needed to drive home a point
but that conversation to me
was one that I really felt like,
okay, you know,
if I don't wake up tomorrow
for whatever reason,
that one's in the can
and I feel really great about it.
To me,
it's the most important
guest recording
we've ever done
in particular
because he has wisdom
and while I hope
he lives to be 204,
chances are he's got another,
what, 20, 30 years with us,
hopefully more
but I really, really wanted
to capture that information
and get it out there
so I'm very, very proud
of that one
and he's the kind of guy
that anyone listens to him,
young, old, male, female,
whatever
and you're going to get
something of value.
What do you think
about this idea
of the shadow
that the good and the bad
that we repress
that hides from plain sight
when we analyze ourselves
that's there?
Do you think there's
like an ocean
that we don't have
direct access to?
Yes.
Yeah, Jung said it,
we have all things
inside of us
and we do
and some people
are more in touch
with those than others
and some people
it's repressed.
I mean, does that mean
that we could all be
horrible people
or marvelous people,
benevolent people?
Perhaps.
I think that,
thankfully,
more often than not,
people lean away
from the violent
and harmful parts
of their shadow.
But I think spending time
thinking about
one's shadow,
shadows,
is super important.
How else are we going to grow?
Otherwise,
we have these unconscious
blind spots of denial
or repression
or whatever
the psychiatrists tell us.
But it clearly exists
within all of us.
I mean, we have neural circuits
for rage.
We all do.
We have neural circuits
for altruism.
And no one's born
without these things.
And some people
they're atrophied
and some people
they're hypertrophied.
But looking inward
and recognizing
what's there
is key.
Or positive things
like creativity.
Maybe that's what
Rick Rubin is accessing
when he goes silent.
Silent body,
active mind.
That's interesting.
What is it for you?
What place do you go
to that generates ideas,
that helps you
generate ideas?
I have a lot
of new practices
around this.
I mean,
I'm always exploring
for protocols.
I have to.
It's like in my nature.
When I went
and spent time
with Rick,
I tried to adopt
his practice
of staying very still
and just letting stuff
come to the surface
or the Dicerothian
way of formulating
complete sentences
while being still
in the body.
What I have found
works better
is what my good friend
Tim Armstrong
does to write music.
He writes music
every day.
He's a music producer.
He's obviously
a singer-guitar
player for Rancid.
And he's helped
dozens and dozens
and dozens
of female pop artists
and punk rock artists
write great songs.
And many of the famous
songs that you've heard
from other artists,
Tim helped them write.
Tim wakes up
sometimes in the middle
of the night
and what he does
is he'll start
drawing or painting.
So what he's done
and Joni Mitchell
talks about this too.
You find some
creative outlet
that's like 15 degrees
off center
from your main
creative outlet
and you do that thing.
So for me,
that's drawing.
I like doing
anatomical drawings,
neuroscience-based drawing,
drawing neurons,
that kind of thing.
And if I do that
for a little while,
my mind starts churning
on the nervous system
and biology
and then I come up
with areas
I'd like to explore
for the podcast,
ways I'd like to
address certain topics.
Right now,
I'm very interested
in autonomic control.
A beautiful paper
came out
that shows that
anyone can learn
to control
their pupil sizes
without changing luminance
through a biofeedback mechanism.
And that gives them
control over their
so-called automatic
autonomic nervous system.
And I've been looking
at what the circuitry is
and it's beautiful.
So I'll draw the circuitry
that we know
underlies
autonomic function.
And as I'm doing that,
I'm thinking,
oh, like,
what about autonomic control
and those people
that supposedly
can control
their pupil size?
Then you go in
and there's a paper
published in Nature Press,
one of the nature journals,
and there's a recent paper
on this.
Like, oh, cool.
And then we talk about this
and then how could this
be put into a kind of
a post
or how could this,
you know,
so doing things
that are about 15 degrees
off center
from your main thing
is a great way
to access,
I believe,
the circuits for,
in Tim's case,
painting goes to songwriting.
I think for Joni Mitchell,
that was also the case, right?
I think it was drawing
and painting
to singing and songwriting.
For Rick,
I don't know what it is.
Maybe it's listening to podcasts.
I don't know.
That's his business.
Do you have anything
that you like to focus on
that allows you then
an easier transition
into your main creative work?
No, I'd really like
to focus on emptiness
and silence.
So I pick the dragon
and I have to slay,
so whatever the problem
I have to work on
and I just sit there
and stare at it.
I love how fucking linear you are.
And if there's no,
if you're tired,
I'll just sit.
I believe in the power
of just waiting
and usually,
I'll stop being tired
or energy rises from somewhere
or an idea pops from somewhere,
but there needs to be
a silence and an emptiness.
It's an empty room,
just me and the dragon
and we wait.
That's it.
Like if it's usually
with programming,
you're thinking
about a particular design,
like how do I design
this thing
to solve this problem?
Any cognitive enhancers?
I've got quite the gallery
in front of me.
Oh, that's right.
Yeah.
Should we walk through this?
Yeah.
This is not a sales thing.
It's just,
I tend to do this
bounce back and forth.
Your refrigerator
just happened to have
a lot of different choices.
So water.
This is all of my refrigerator.
I know, right?
There's no food in there.
There's water.
There's element,
which they now have canned.
Yeah.
And yes,
they're a podcast sponsor
for both of us,
but that's not why
I cracked one of these open.
I like them,
provide they're cold.
And that's,
by the way,
my least favorite flavor,
as I was saying.
That's the reason
it's still left in the fridge.
The cherry one
is really good.
The black cherry.
There's an orange one.
Yeah.
I pushed the sled this morning
and pulled the sled
for my workout at the gym
and it was hot today
here in Austin.
So some salt is good.
And then Matina Yerba Mate,
zero sugar,
full confession,
I helped develop this.
I'm a partial owner,
but I love Yerba Mate.
Half Argentine,
been drinking mate
since I was a little kid.
There's actually a photo
somewhere on the internet
when I'm like three
sending all my grandfather's lap
sipping mate out the gourd.
And then this,
my fun,
interesting,
this is just a little bit of coffee
with a scoop of,
Brian Johnson gave me cocoa,
just like pure unsweetened cocoa.
So I put that in chocolate
and I like it.
It's just for the taste.
Well, it actually nukes my appetite.
And since we're not going out
to dinner tonight until later,
I figure that's good.
Yeah, Brian's an interesting one, right?
He's really pushing this thing.
The optimization of everything.
Yeah.
Although he just hurt his ankle.
He posted a photo
that hurt his ankle.
So now he's injecting BPC,
body protection compound 157,
which many, many people
are taking, by the way.
I did an episode on peptides.
I should just say,
you know,
BPC 157,
one of the known effects
in animal models
is angiogenesis,
like development
and a new vasculature,
which can be great
in some context,
but also if you have a tumor,
you don't really want
to vascularize that tumor anymore.
So I worry about people
taking BPC 157 continually,
but,
and there's very little human data.
I think there's like one study
and it's a lousy one.
So a lot of animal data.
Some of the peptides
are interesting.
However,
there's one that I've experimented
with a little bit
called pinealine,
which I find,
even if I've just taken it
twice a week before sleep,
then it times,
it seems to do something
to the circadian timekeeping mechanism
because then on other days
when I don't take it,
I get unbelievably tired
at that time
that normally
I would do the injection.
These are things
that I'll experiment with
for a couple of weeks
and then typically stop,
maybe try something else.
But I stay out of things
that really stimulate
any of like major hormone pathways.
When it comes to peptides.
That's actually
a really good question
of how do you experiment?
Like how long
do you try a thing
to figure out
if it works for you?
Well,
I'm very sensitive
to these things.
So I,
and I have been doing
a lot of things
for a long time.
So if I add something in,
it's always one thing at a time.
And I notice right away
if it does not make me feel good.
Like there's a lot of excitement
about some of the
so-called growth hormone secretagogues,
ipromorelin,
testomorelin,
cermorelin.
I've experimented a little bit
with those in the past
and they've nuked
my rapid eye movement.
Sleep,
but giving me
a lot of deep sleep,
which doesn't feel good to me,
but other people like them.
I also just generally
try and avoid
taking peptides
that tap into
these hormone pathways
because you can run
into all sorts of issues,
but some people
take them safely.
But usually after
about four or five days,
I know if I like something
or I don't,
and then I move on.
But I am not
super adventurous
with these things.
I know people
that will take cocktails
of peptides
with multiple things.
They'll try anything.
That's not me.
And I do blood work.
But also,
I'm mainly
reading papers
and podcasting
and I'm teaching
a course next spring.
Stanford,
I'm going to do
a big undergraduate course.
So I'm trying
to develop that course
and things like that.
So I don't need
to lift more weight
or run further
than I already do,
which is not that much weight
or far as it is.
All right.
You're not going
to the Olympics.
You're not trying
to truly maximize
some aspect
of your performance.
No,
and I'm not trying
to get down below
whatever,
you know,
7% body fat
or something.
I don't have
those kinds of goals.
So hydration,
electrolytes,
caffeine in the form
of mate
and then this coffee thing.
And then here's
one that I think
I brought out
for discussion.
This is a piece
of Nicorette.
They're not a sponsor.
Nicotine is
an interesting compound.
It will raise
blood pressure
and it is probably
not safe for everybody.
But, you know,
the nicotine
is gaining
in popularity
like crazy,
mainly these pouches
that people put
in the lip.
We're not talking
about smoking,
vaping,
dipping or snuffing.
You know,
my interest
in nicotine started,
this was in 2010.
I was visiting
Columbia Medical School
and I was in the office
of the great
neurobiologist
Richard Axel
won the Nobel Prize
co-recipient
with Linda Buck
for the discovery
of the molecular
basis of olfaction.
Brilliant guy.
He's probably
in his late 70s now.
Probably.
Yeah.
And he kept
popping Nicorette
in his mouth
and I was like,
what's this about?
And he said,
oh, well,
this was just anecdote,
right?
But he said,
but he said this.
He said,
oh, well,
you know,
it protects against
Parkinson's and Alzheimer's.
I said,
it does?
And he goes,
yeah, yeah, yeah.
I don't know
if he was kidding or not.
He's known for making jokes.
And then he said
that when he used to smoke,
it really helped
his focus in creativity,
but then he quit smoking
because he didn't want
lung cancer
and he found
that he couldn't focus
as well,
so he would choose Nicorette.
So occasionally,
like right now,
I do a half a piece,
but I'm not Russian.
So I'm a little,
you know,
did you just pop
the whole thing
in your mouth?
So I'll do
a couple milligrams
every now and again
and it definitely
sharpens the mind
on an empty stomach
in particular,
but you fast all day.
You're still doing
one meal a day?
One meal a day.
Yeah, I did a nicotine pouch
with Rogan at dinner
and that got high.
Yeah, that's a lot.
That's like usually
six or eight milligrams.
I know people
that get a canister
of Zin,
take one a day,
pretty soon
they're taking
a canister a day.
So you have to be
very careful.
I will only allow myself
two pieces of Nicorette
total per week
and you will notice
that, you know,
in the day after
you use it,
you know,
sometimes your throat
will feel a little bit
like a little spasmy,
like you might want
to cough once or twice.
And so,
you know,
if you're a singer
or you're a podcaster
or something,
you have to do
long podcasts,
you want to just
be mindful of it.
But yeah,
you're supposed to
kind of like
keep it in your cheek
and here we go.
But it did make me
intensely focused
in a way
that was a little bit scary
because
the nucleus basalis
is in the,
you know,
basal forebrain nucleus
has cholinergic neurons
that radiate out
axons,
little wires
that release acetylcholine
into the neocortex
and elsewhere.
And when you focus
on one particular
topic matter
or one particular
area of your visual field
or listening to something
and focusing visually,
we know that there's
an elaboration
of the amount
of acetylcholine
released there
and it binds
to nicotinic
acetylcholine receptor
sites there.
So it's a kind
of an intentional
modulation
by acetylcholine.
So you're getting
with nicotine,
you're getting
an exogenous
or artificial
heightening
of that circuitry.
And the time
I had Tucker Carlson
on the podcast,
he told me
that apparently
it helps him,
as he said publicly,
keep his
love life
vibrant.
Really?
It causes
vasoconstrictions.
Like he literally
said it makes
his dick
very hard.
He said
that publicly
also.
Okay,
well,
as little
as I want
to think
about Tucker
Carlson's
sex life,
no disrespect.
The
major effect
of nicotine
on the vasculature,
my understanding
is that it
causes vasoconstriction,
not vasodilation.
Drugs like Cialis,
Tadalafil,
Viagra,
et cetera,
are vasodilators.
They allow
more blood flow.
Nicotine does
the opposite,
less blood flow.
to the periphery,
but provided
dosages are kept
low.
I don't recommend
people use it
frequently or at all.
I don't recommend
young people use it,
you know,
25 and younger.
Brain's very plastic
at that time.
And certainly,
smoking,
dipping,
vaping,
and snuffing
aren't good
because you're
going to run into
trouble for other
reasons.
But in any case,
and even there,
vaping is a
controversial topic.
It's probably safer
than smoking
but has its own
issues.
And I said
something like that
and boy,
did I catch a lot
of heat for that.
You can't say anything
as a health science
educator and not
piss somebody off.
It just depends
on where the center
of mass is
and how far
outside that you are.
For me,
the caffeine
is the main thing.
And actually,
it's a really
big part of my life.
And one of the things
you recommend
that people wait
a bit in the morning
to consume caffeine.
If they experience
a crash in the afternoon,
this is one
of the misconceptions
I regret.
Maybe even discussing it
for people that crash
in the afternoon.
Oftentimes,
if they delay
their caffeine
by 60 and 90 minutes,
in the morning,
they will offset
some of that.
But if you eat
a lunch that's too big
or you didn't sleep
well the night before,
you're not going
to avoid that
afternoon crash.
But I'll wake up
sometimes and go
straight to hydration,
caffeine,
especially if I'm
going to work out.
Here's a weird one.
If I exercise
before 8.30 a.m.,
especially if I start
exercising when I'm
a little bit tired,
I get energy
that lasts all day.
If I wait until
my peak of energy,
which is mid-morning,
10 a.m.,
11 a.m.,
and I start exercising
then,
I'm basically
exhausted all afternoon.
And I don't understand
why.
I mean,
it depends on the intensity
of the workout.
So I like to be done,
showered,
and heading into work
by 9 a.m.,
but I don't always
meet that mark.
So you're saying
it doesn't affect
your energy
if you start
out with exercising?
I think you can get energy
and wake yourself up
with exercise
if you start early,
and then that fuels
you all day long.
I think that if you wait
until you're feeling
at your best
to train,
sometimes that's detrimental
because then in the afternoon
when you're doing
the work we get paid for,
like research,
podcasting,
et cetera,
then oftentimes
your brain
isn't firing as well.
That's interesting.
I haven't really
rigorously tried that
wake up
and just start running.
This is the Jocko thing.
And then there's
this phenomenon
called entrainment
where if you force yourself
to exercise
or eat
or socialize
or view bright light
at a certain time of day
for three to seven days
in a row,
pretty soon
there's an anticipatory circuit
that gets generated.
This is why
anyone in theory
can become a morning person
to some degree
or another.
And this is also
a beautiful example
of why you wake up
before your alarm clock
goes off.
You know,
people wake up
and all of a sudden
it goes off.
It wasn't because it clicked.
It's because you have
this incredible
timekeeping mechanism
that exists in sleep.
And there's some papers
that have been published
in the last couple of years,
Nature Neuroscience
and elsewhere
showing that
people can answer
math problems
in their sleep,
simple math problems,
but math problems
nonetheless.
This does not mean
that if you ask
your partner a question
in sleep
that they're going
to answer accurately.
Like they might
screw up the whole
cumulative probability
of 20%
across multiple months.
All right,
listen,
what happened?
What happened?
Here's the deal.
A few years back,
I did a four and a half hour
after editing
four and a half hour
episode on male
and female fertility.
The entire recording
took 11 hours
and at one point
during the,
and by the way,
I'm very proud
of that episode.
There's many couples
have written to me
and said
they now have children
as a consequence
of that episode.
And my first question
is what were you doing
during the episode?
But in all seriousness,
we should say
that it's four
and a half hours.
And for people,
and they should
listen to the episode,
it's extremely
technical episode.
You're nonstop
dropping facts
and referencing
a huge number of papers.
It must be exhaust.
I don't understand
how you can possibly
talk about sperm health,
spermatogenesis.
It talks about
the ovulatory cycle.
It talks about things
people can do
that are considered
absolutely supported
by science.
It talks about
some of the things
kind of out on the edge
a little bit
that are a little bit
more experimental.
It talks about IVF.
It talks about ICSI.
It talks about
all of that.
It talks about
frequency of pregnancy
as a function of age,
et cetera.
But there's this one
portion there
in the podcast
where I'm talking
about the probability
of a successful pregnancy
as a function of age.
And so
there was a clip
that was cut
in which
I was describing
cumulative probability.
And by the way,
we've published
cumulative probability
histograms
in many of my
laboratory's papers,
including one
that was a Nature
article in 2018.
So we run these
all the time.
And yes,
I know the difference
between independent
and cumulative probability.
I do.
The way the clip
was cut
and what I stated
unfortunately combined
to a pretty
great gaffe
where I say,
you're just adding
I said,
you're just adding
percentages,
20 to 120%.
And then I made
a kind of,
unfortunately,
my humor isn't
always so good.
And I made a joke.
I said,
120%,
but that's a different
thing altogether.
What I should have said
was,
that's impossible,
you know,
and here's how
it actually works.
But then it continues
where I then describe
the cumulative probability
histogram
for successful pregnancy.
But somewhere
in the early portion
I misstated something,
right?
I made a math error,
which implied
I didn't understand
the difference
between independent
and cumulative probability,
which I do.
And it got picked up
and run
and people had
a really good laugh
with that one
at my expense.
And so what I did
in response to it
was rather than
just say everything
I just said now,
I said,
I just came out online
and said,
hey folks,
in an episode
dated this
on fertility,
I made a math error.
Here is the formula
for cumulative probability,
successful pregnancy
at that age.
Here's the graph,
here's the,
you know,
and I offered it
as a teaching moment
in two ways.
One,
for people to understand
cumulative probability.
It was sort of interesting
to a number of people
that had come out
critiquing the gaffe.
Also,
like Bology
and folks came out
pointing out
that they didn't understand
cumulative probability.
So there was a lot
of posturing,
you know,
the dogpile,
oftentimes people are quick
to dogpile.
They didn't understand,
but a lot of people
did understand.
Some smart people
out there,
obviously.
I called my dad
and he was just laughing.
He goes,
oh,
this is good.
This is like the old school
way of hammering academics.
But the point being,
there was a teaching moment.
Gave me an opportunity
to say,
hey,
I made a mistake.
I also made a mistake
in another podcast
where I did a micron
to millimeter conversion
or centimeter conversion.
And we always correct these
in the show note captions.
We correct them
in the audio now.
Unfortunately on YouTube,
it's harder to correct.
You can't go and edit
in segments.
We put in the captions,
but that was the one
teaching moment.
If you make a mistake,
it's substantive
and relate to data.
You apologize
and correct the mistake,
use the teaching moment.
The other one was to say,
hey,
you know,
in all the thousands
of hours of content
we've put out,
I'm sure I've made
some small errors.
I think I once said
serotonin when I'm in dopamine
and you know,
you're going,
you're riffing.
And it's a reminder
to be careful
to edit,
double check.
But the internet
usually edits for us
and then we go
make corrections.
But it didn't feel good
at first,
but ultimately,
you know,
I can laugh at myself
about it.
Long ago at Berkeley
when I was TAing
my first class,
it was a biopsychology class,
it was in 1998
or 1999,
I was drawing
the pituitary gland,
which is,
you know,
it has an anterior
and a posterior lobe.
Actually,
it's a medial lobe too.
I had probably
five,
six hundred students
in that lecture hall
and I drew,
it was chalkboard
and I drew
the two lobes
of the pituitary
and I said,
my back was to the audience,
I said,
you know,
and so they just
sort of hang there
and everyone just erupted
in laughter
because it looked like
a scrotum
with two testicles.
And I remember thinking
like,
oh my God,
like,
I don't think
I can turn around
like and face this,
you know,
and I'm like,
oh,
I got to turn around
sooner or later.
So I turned around
and we just all
had a big laugh together.
It was embarrassing.
I'll tell you one thing though,
they never forgot
about the two lobes
of the pituitary.
Yeah.
And you haven't forgotten
about that either.
Right.
There's a high salience
for these kinds of things.
And it also was
kind of fun
to see
how excited
people get
to see people trip.
It's like an elite sprinter
trips
and does something stupid
like,
you know,
runs the opposite direction
out of the blocks
or something like that.
And,
and,
or,
you know,
I recall
at one World Cup
match years ago,
a guy scored
against his own team.
I think they killed the guy.
Do you remember that?
Some South American
or Central American team.
Yeah.
And they killed the guy.
But yeah,
let's,
let's look it up.
I just said
World Cup.
Yeah,
he was gunned down.
Andres Escobar
scored against his own team
in 1994 World Cup
in the United States.
Just 27 years old
playing for the
Columbia National Team.
Yeah.
Last name Escobar.
It's a good name.
I think it would protect you.
Listen,
you know,
so
there are some gaffes
that get
people
killed.
Right?
So,
you know,
how forgiving
are we
for online mistakes?
You know,
it's the nature
of the mistakes.
People were quite gracious
about the,
the gaffe
and some weren't.
And,
you know,
it's interesting
that
we
as,
you know,
public health science
educators,
you know,
we'll do long podcasts
sometimes
and,
and you need to be
really careful.
What's great is AI
allows you to check
these things now
more readily.
So,
that's cool.
And
there are ways
that it's now
going to be
more self-correcting.
I mean,
you know,
I think
there's a,
there's a lot
of errors out there
on the internet
and people are
finding them
and it's cool.
Like,
things are getting
cleaned up.
Yeah,
but mistakes
nevertheless will happen.
Are you,
do you feel
the pressure
of
not making
mistakes?
Sure.
I mean,
you know,
I try and get things
right to the best of,
you know,
to the best of my ability.
I check with experts.
It's kind of interesting
when people really
don't like something
that was said
in a podcast.
A lot of times
I chuckle
because I'm,
you know,
at Stanford
we have some amazing
scientists,
but I talk to them
else,
people elsewhere.
And
it's always
interesting to me
how
you know,
I'll get
divergent information
and then
I'll find the overlap
in the Venn diagram
and I have this
like question,
do I just stay
with the overlap
in the Venn diagram?
Like,
I did an episode
on oral health.
I didn't know this
until I researched
that episode,
but oral health
is critically related
to heart health
and brain health.
There's a bacteria
that causes cavities,
streptococcus,
you know,
that can make
its way
into other parts
of the body
through the mouth
that can cause
serious issues.
There's the idea
that some forms
of dementia,
some forms
of heart disease
start in the mouth
basically.
I talked to
no fewer
than four
dentists,
dental experts,
and there was
a lot of convergence.
I also learned
that teeth
can demineralize,
that's the formation
of cavities.
They can also
remineralize.
As long as the cavity
isn't too deep,
it can actually
fill itself back in,
especially if you
provide the right
substrates for it.
That saliva
is this incredible
fluid that has
all this capacity
to remineralize teeth
provided the milieu
is right.
Things like
alcohol-based mouthwashes,
killing off some
of the critical
things you need.
It's fascinating.
And I put out
that episode
thinking,
oh,
I'm not a dentist,
I'm not an oral
health episode,
but I talked
to a pediatric
dentist.
There's a terrific
one,
Dr. Downscore Stacy,
S-T-A-C-I,
on Instagram,
does great content.
Talked to some
others.
And then I just
waited for the attack.
I was like,
here we go.
And it didn't come.
And dentists
were thanking me.
I was like,
you know,
that's a rare thing.
More often than not,
if I do an episode
about,
say,
psilocybin
or MDMA,
you get some people
liking it,
or ADHD
and the drugs
for ADHD.
We did a whole episode
on the Ritalin,
Vyvanse,
Adderall stuff.
You get people
saying,
thank you,
you know,
I prescribed this
to my kid
and it really helps.
And this,
but they're private
about the fact
that they do it
because they get
so much attack
from other people.
So I like to
find the center
of mass,
report that,
try and make it
as clear as possible.
And then I know
that there's some stuff
where I'm going
to catch shit.
What's frustrating
for me
is when
like I see claims
that I'm like
against fluoridization
of water,
which I'm not,
right?
Like we talked
about the benefits
of fluoride.
It builds hyper-strong
bonds within the teeth.
I went and looked
at some of the,
literally the crystal
structure,
excuse me,
not the crystal structure,
but the,
essentially the like
micron and sub-micron
structure of teeth.
It's like incredible
and where fluoride
can get in there
and form these
super-strong bonds.
And you can also
form them
with things
like hydroxyapatite
and why is there
fluoride in water?
Well,
it's the best.
Okay.
You get,
you say some things
that are interesting,
but then somehow
it gets turned
into like you're
against fluoridization,
which I'm not.
Or I've been accused
of being against sunscreen.
I wear mineral-based
sunscreen on my face.
I don't want
to get skin cancer
or I use a physical barrier.
There is a cohort
of people out there
that think that
all sunscreens are bad.
I'm not one of them.
I'm not what's called
a sunscreen truther.
But then you get
attacked for like,
so we're talking
about there are
certain sunscreens
that are problematic.
So what,
and Rhonda Patrick's
now starting
to get vocal about this.
And so there's
certain topics
that's interesting
for which
you have to listen
carefully
to what somebody
is saying,
but there's a lumper
or lumping
as opposed to splitting
of what health educators say.
And so it just seems
like with politics,
there's this like urgency
to just put people
into a camp
of expert
versus like renegade
or something.
And it's not like that.
It's just not like that.
So the short answer
is I really strive,
really strive
to get things right.
But I know
that I'm going
to piss certain people off.
And you've taught me
and Joe's taught me
and other podcasters
have taught me
that like,
if you worry
too much about it,
then you aren't going
to get the newest
information out there.
Like peptides,
there's very little
human data
unless you're talking
about Vilesi
or the stuff
in the alpha-melanocyte
stimulating hormone stuff
which are prescribed
for female libido
to enhance female libido
or sermorellin
which is for certain
growth hormone deficiencies.
With rare exception,
there's very little
human data.
But people are still
super interested
and a lot of people
are taking
and doing these things.
So you want
to get the information out.
Do you try to
not just look
at the science
but research
what the communities
are talking,
what the various communities
are talking about?
Like maybe research
what the conspiracy theorists
are talking about
just so you know
all the armies
that are going
to be attacking
your castle.
Yes.
So like for instance,
there's a community
of people online
that believe
that like
if you consume
seed oils
or something
that like
you're setting up
your skin
for sunburn
and if you don't,
you know,
like there's all
these like theories.
But I like to,
so I like to know
what the theories are.
I like to know
what the extremes are.
But I also like to know
what the standard
conversation is.
But there's generally
more agreement
than disagreement.
I think where,
you know,
I've been kind of bullish
actually is,
you know,
like supplements.
Like people go,
oh, supplements.
Well, there's food supplements
like a protein powder
which is different
than a vitamin.
And then they are compounds.
There are compounds
that have real benefit
but people get very nervous
about the fact
that they're not regulated.
But some of them
are vetted
with for potency
and for safety
with more rigor
than others,
you know.
And it's interesting
to see how people
who take care
of themselves
and put a lot
of work into that
are often attacked.
That's been interesting.
Also,
one of the most
controversial topics
nowadays is
Ozempic,
Monjaro.
I'm very middle
of the road on this.
I don't understand
why the quote-unquote
health wellness community
is so against these things.
I also don't understand
why they have
to be looked at
as the only route.
For some people,
they've really helped
them lose weight.
And yes,
there can be
some muscle loss
and other lean body loss
but that can be offset
with resistance training.
They've helped
a lot of people.
And other people
are like,
no,
this stuff is terrible.
I think the most
interesting thing
about Ozempic,
Monjaro
is that they are GLP-1.
They're in the GLP-1 pathway,
glucagon-like peptide 1
and it was discovered
in Gila monsters
which is a lizard basically
and someone,
now the entomologists
will dive on me.
It's a big lizard-looking thing
that doesn't eat very often
and they figured out
that there's this peptide
that allows it
to curb its own appetite
at the level of the brain
and the gut
and it has a lot of homology
to sequence homology
to what we now call GLP-1.
So I love anytime
there's animal biology
links to cool human biology,
links to a drug
that's powerful
that can help people
with obesity
and type 2 diabetes
and there's evidence
that can even curb
some addictions.
Those are newer data
but I don't see
as either or.
In fact,
I've been a little bit
disappointed
at the way that
the whatever you want
to call it,
health wellness
biohacking community
has like slammed
on Ozempic,
Monjaro.
It's like they're like
just get out
and run and do it.
Listen,
there are people
who are carrying
substantial amounts
of weight
that running
could injure them.
They get on these drugs
and they can improve
and then hopefully
they're also doing
resistance training
and eating better
and then you're bringing
all the elements together.
Well,
why do you think
the criticism
is happening?
Is it that Ozempic
became super popular
so people are misusing it
or that kind of thing?
No,
I think what it is
is that people
think if it's
a pharmaceutical,
it's bad
and then
or if it's
a supplement,
it's bad
depending on
which camp they're in
and wouldn't it
be wonderful
to kind of like
fill in the gap
between this divide?
You know,
what I would like
to see in politics
and in health
is neither right
nor left
but what we can
just call
a league
of reasonable people
that looks at things
on an issue
by issue basis
and fills in the center
because I think
most people
are in,
I don't want to say
center in a political way
but I think most people
are reasonable,
they want to be reasonable
but that's not
what sells clicks.
That's not what
drives interest
but I'm a very,
like I look at
issue by issue,
person by person.
I don't like
in-group,
out-group stuff.
I never have.
I've got friends
from all walks of life.
I said this
on other podcasts
and it always sounds
like a political statement
but the push
towards polarization
is so frustrating.
If there's one thing
that's discouraging
to me
as I get older
each year,
I'm like,
wow,
where are we ever
going to get out
of this polarization?
Speaking of which,
how are you going to vote
for the presidential election?
I'm still trying
to figure out
how to interview
the people involved
and do it well.
What do you think
the role of podcasts
is going to be
in this year's election?
I would love
long-form conversations
to happen
with the candidates.
I think it's going
to be huge.
I would love
Trump to go
on Rogan.
I'm embarrassed
to say this
but I would love
to,
honestly,
would love to see
Joe Biden
go on Joe Rogan
also.
I would imagine
that both
would go on
but separately.
Separately,
I think a debate,
Joe does debates
but I think
Joe at his best
is one-on-one
conversation
really intimate.
I just wish
that Joe Biden
would actually
do long-form
conversations.
I thought he had
done it.
I think it was
on Jay Shetty's podcast.
He did Jay Shetty.
He did a few
but when I mean
long-form,
I mean
really long-form
like two,
three hours
and more relaxed.
It was much
more orchestrated
because what happens
when the interview
is a little bit
too short,
it becomes
into this generic
political type
of NBC,
CNN type
of interview.
You get a set
of questions
and you don't
get to really
feel the human.
Expose the human
to the light
in the full,
we talked about
the shadow,
the good,
the bad,
and the ugly.
So I think
there's something
magical about
two,
three,
four hours
but it doesn't
have to be
that long
but it has
to have
that feeling
to it
where there's
not people
standing around
and everybody's
nervous
and you're
going to be
strictly sticking
to the question
answer type
of feel
but just
shooting shit
which Rogan
is the best
by far
in the world
at that.
I don't think
people really
appreciate
how
skilled
he is
at what
he does
and the
number
I mean
the three
or four
podcasts
per week
plus the UFC
announcing
plus comedy
tours
in stadiums
plus
you know
doing comedy
shows
in the middle
of the week
plus
you know
husband
and father
and a friend
and jujitsu
the guys
got like
superhuman
levels of
output.
I agree
that long
form
conversation
is a whole
other business
and I think
that people
want and
deserve to
know the
people
that are
running
for office
in a
different way
and to
really get
to know
them.
Well listen
you know
I guess
you
I mean
is it clear
that he's
going to do
jail time
or maybe
he gets
away with
fine?
Because I was
going to say
does that mean
you're going
to be podcasting
from jail?
In prison
yeah
we're going
to
in fact
I'm going
to figure
out how
to commit
a crime
so I can
get in
prison
please don't
well that's
I'm sure
they have
visitors
right
that just
doesn't feel
an authentic
way to
get the
interview
but yeah
I understand
you wouldn't
be able
to wear
that suit
you'd be
wearing a
different
suit
that's
true
yeah
it's going
to be
interesting
and you
do
I'm not
just saying
this because
you're my
friend
but you
would do
a
marvelous
job
I think
you should
sit down
with all
of them
separately
to keep
it civil
and see
what happens
here's one
thing that I
found really
interesting
in this whole
political
landscape
when I'm
in Los
Angeles
I often
get invited
to these
like
they're not
dinners
but gatherings
where
you know
a local
you know
bunch of
podcasters
will come
together
but a lot
of people
from the
entertainment
industry
big agencies
big tech
like big
big tech
many of the
people have
been on
this podcast
and they'll
host a
discussion
or debate
and what
you find
if you look
around the
room
and you
talk to
people
is that
about half
the people
in the
room
are very
left-leaning
and very
outspoken
about that
and they'll
tell you
exactly who
they want
to see
win the
presidential
race
and the
other half
will tell
you that
they're for
the other
side
a lot
of people
that
people assume
are on one
side of the
aisle or the
other
are in the
exact opposite
side
now some
people are
very open
about who
they're for
but it's
been very
interesting to
see how
when you get
people one-on-one
they're like
telling you
they want
X candidate
to win
or Y
candidate
to win
and sometimes
I'm like
really
I can't
believe it
like you
like yep
and so
it's what
people think
about
people's
political
leanings
is often
exactly wrong
and that's
been eye-opening
for me
and I've
seen that
in university
campuses too
and so
it's going to
be really
really interesting
to see what
happens in
November
in addition
to that
as you said
most people
are close
to the
center
despite what
Twitter makes
it seem
like
most people
whether they're
center left
or center
right
they're kind
of close
to the
center
yeah I mean
here's the
to me the
most interesting
question
who is going
to be the
next big
candidate
in years
to come
like who's
that going
to be
right now
I don't
I don't
I don't
see or know
of that
person
who's it
going to
be
yeah the
young promising
candidates
we're not
seeing them
we're not
seeing like
another way
to ask that
question
who would
want to
be
well that's
the issue
right
you know
who wants
to live
in this
12-hour
news cycle
where you're
just trying
to you know
dunk on the
other team
so that nobody
notices like
that you're
the shit
that you fucked
up you know
like that
that's not
like that's not
only not fun
or interesting
it also is
just like
it's got to be
psychosis inducing
at some point
and I think
that you know
God willing
we're gonna
you know
some young
guy or woman
is like
on this
and refuses
to
to back
down
and was just
like determined
to be president
and will make
it happen
but
like I don't
even know
who the
viable candidates
are
maybe you
Lex
you know
we should ask
Sagar
Sagar would
know
yeah
yeah
maybe Sagar
himself
Sagar's
show is
awesome
yeah
Ian Crystal
do a great thing
he's incredible
especially since
they have
somewhat divergent
opinions on things
that's what makes
it so cool
he's great
he looks great
in a suit
looks real sexy
he's taking
real good care
of himself
I think he's
getting married
soon
congratulations
Sagar
forgive me
for not remembering
your wife
future wife's
name
he won my heart
by giving me
a biography
of Hitler
as a present
that's what he
gave you
yeah
I gave you
a hatchet
with a poem
that just shows
the fundamental
difference
with a poem
inscribed
in it
which was
pretty damn
good
I realize
everything we
bring up
on the screen
is like
really
depressing
like the
soccer player
getting killed
can we bring
up something
happy
uh sure
let's go to
nature's metal
instagram
those are pretty
intense
we actually did
a collaborative
post on a
on a shark
thing
really
yeah
what kind
of shark
thing
so to
generate
the fear
vr
stimulus
from my
lab
in
20
was it
yeah
2016
we went
down to
guadalupe
island
off the
coast
of
mexico
me and
a guy
named
michael
muller
who's a
very famous
um
portrait
photographer
but also
takes
photos
of sharks
and
we
used
360 video
to build
vr of
great white
sharks
brought it
back to
the lab
we published
that study
in current
biology
in
2017
went
back
down
there
um
and
that
was
the
year
that
i
exited
the
cage
that
you
lower
the
cage
with
the
crane
and that
year
i
exited
the
cage
i
had
a
whole
mess
with
a
air
failure
the
day
before
i
was
breathing
from
a
hookah
line
while
in
the
cage
i
had
no
scuba
on
divers
were
out
the
thing
got
boa
constricted
up
and
i
had
an
air
failure
and
i
had
to
actually
share
air
and
it
was
a
whole
mess
story
for
another
time
but
the
next
day
because
i
didn't
want
to
get
PTSD
and
it
was
pretty
scary
the
next
day
i
cage
exited
with
some
other
divers
and
it
turns
out
with
these
great
white
sharks
in
Guadalupe
the
water
is
very
clear
and
you
can
swim
toward
them
and
then
they
veer
off
you
if
you
swim
toward
we
had
one
of
the
crew
on
board
had
a
line
in
the
water
and
was
fishing
for
tuna
for
dinner
and
a
shark
took
the
tuna
off
the
line
and
it's
a
very
dramatic
take
and
you
can
see
the
absolute
size
of
these
great
white
sharks
the
waters
there
are
filled
with
them
that's
the
one
but
so
this
video
just
the
Neuralink
link
was
shot
by
Matt
McDougal
who
believe
it
looks
like
it
missed
like
it
didn't
get
the
fish
it
actually
just
cut
that
thing
like
a
bandsaw
so
I'm
up
on
the
deck
with
Matt
yeah
and
so
when
you
look
at
it
from
the
side
you
you
really
get
a
sense
of
this
of
the
girth
of
this
thing
so
as
it
comes
up
if
you
pop
the
size
of
that
thing
and
they
move
through
the
water
with
such
speed
just
a
couple
so
when
you're
in
the
cage
and
the
cage
is
lowered
down
below
the
surface
they're
going
around
you're
not
allowed
to
chum
the
water
there
some
people
do
it
but
and
then
when
you
cage
exit
they're
like
what
are
you
doing
out
here
and
then
you
know
they
you
swim
toward
them
they
veer
off
but
what's
interesting
is
that
if
you
look
at
how
they
move
through
the
water
all
it
takes
for
one
of
these
great
white
sharks
when
it
sees
a
tuna
or
something
it
wants
to
eat
is
like
two
flicks
of
the
tail
and
becomes
like
a
missile
it's
just
unbelievable
economy
of
effort
and
Ocean
Ramsey
who
is
in
my
opinion
the
greatest
of
all
cage
exit
shark
divers
this
woman
who
dove
with
enormous
great
white
sharks
she
understand
how
the
tiger
sharks
differ
from
the
great
white
sharks
we
were
down
there
basically
like
not
understanding
any
of
this
we
never
should
have
been
there
and
actually
the
air
failure
the
day
before
plus
cage
exiting
the
next
day
I
told
myself
after
coming
up
from
the
cage
exit
that's
it
I'm
no
longer
taking
risks
with
my
life
I
want
to
live
got
back
across
the
border
a couple
days
metal
we
passed
them
that
video
actually
I
saw
a video
where
an
instructor
was
explaining
how to
behave
with a
shark
in the
water
and
that
you
don't
want
to
be
swimming
away
because
then
you're
acting
like
a
prey
and
then
you
want
to
be
acting
like
a
predator
by
looking
at
it
and
swimming
towards
it
right
towards
them
and
they'll
bank
off
now
if
you
don't
see
them
they're
ambush
predators
speedy
you're
not
going
to
roll
the
shark
but
here
we
are
back
to
dark
stuff
again
I
like
the
shark
attack
map
and
the
shark
attack
map
shows
that
you
know
northern
California
there
were
a
couple
actually
a
guy's
head
got
taken
off
he
was
swimming
north
of
San
Francisco
there's
been
a
couple
of
northern
California
that
was
really
tragic
but
most
of
them
are
in
Florida
and
Australia
Florida
the
Surfrider
Foundation
shark
attack
map
there
it
is
they
have
a
great
map
so
they
look
like
they
have
all
the
scars
on
them
so
if
you
if
you
zoom
in
on
I
mean
look at
this
if
you
go
to
North
America
look at
skulls
there's
yeah
where
there
where
there
deadly
attacks
but
in
yeah
northern
California
sadly
this
is
really
tragic
if
you
zoom
in
on
this
one
I
50-year-old
male
he
was
in
chest
high
water
this
is
just
tragic
I
feel
so
sad
for
him
and
his
family
you
know
he's
just
three
members
of the
party
chose
to
go
in
he
was
you
know
nine
was
in
his
chest
high
water
25
to
50
yards
from
shore
great
breached
water
seized
his
head
and
that
was
it
you
know
so
it
does
happen
it's
very
infrequent
if
you
don't
go
in
the
ocean
it's
a
very
very
very
low
probability
but
if
it
doesn't
happen
six
times
in a
row
120%
chance
yeah
who do
you
think
wins
a saltwater
crocodile
or a
shark
okay
I
do
not
like
saltwater
crocodiles
they
scare
me
to
no
end
Muller
Michael
Muller
who
dove
all
over
the
world
he
sent
me
a
picture
of
him
diving
with
salties
saltwater
crocs
in
Cuba
it was
a
smaller
one
but
goodness
have
you
seen
the
size
of
some
of
those
saltwater
crocs
yeah
I'm
thinking
the
sharks
are
so
agile
they're
amazing
they've
head
cammed
one
or
body
cammed
one
moving
through
the
kelp
bed
and
you
look
and
it's
just
they're
so
agile
moving
through
the
water
and
it's
looking
up
at
the
surface
like
the
camera
is
looking
at
the
surface
and
say
that
a
salty
has
way
more
bite
force
but
according
to
the
internet
recently
data
indicates
that
the
shark
has
a
stronger
bite
so
I
was
assuming
that
a
crocodile
would
have
a
stronger
bite
force
and
therefore
agility
doesn't
matter
but
apparently
a
shark
yeah
and
turning
one
of
those
big
salties
is
probably
not
that
turning
around
it's
like
a
battleship
I
mean
those
sharks
are
unbelievable
they
hit
from
all
sorts
oh
and
they
do
this
thing
we
saw
this
you're
out
of
the
cage
or
in
the
cage
and
you'll
look
at
one
and
you'll
see
its
eye
kind
of
like
looking
at
you
they
can't
really
fovee
it
but
they'll
look
at
you
and
you're
tracking
it
and
then
you'll
look
down
and
you'll
realize
that
one's
coming
at
you
they're
ambush
prayers
they're
working
together
it's
fascinating
I like
how you
know
that they
can't
foveate
you're already
considering the
vision system
there
it's a
very primitive
eyes on the
side of the
head
their vision
is decent
enough
they're
mostly
obviously
sensing
things
with their
electro
sensing
in the
water
but also
olfaction
yeah
I spend
far too
much
time
thinking
about
and
learning
about
the
visual
systems
of
different
animals
if you
get me
going
on
this
like
we'll
be
here
all
night
see
this
is
what
I have
the
smuggler
on
too
I saw
this
in the
store
and I
got
it
because
this
is
from
a
shark
goodness
yeah
I can't
say I
ever saw
one with
teeth this
big
but
imagine
that
it's
beautiful
yeah
it's
probably
your blood
pressure
just goes
and you
don't
feel
a thing
yeah
before we
went down
for the
cage exit
a guy
in our
crew
Pat
Dossett
who's
very
experienced
diver
asked
one of
the
South
African
divers
so
what's
the
contingency
plan
if
somebody
catches
a
bite
and
they
were
like
he was
like
every
man
for
himself
and
they're
like
basically
saying
if
somebody
catches
a
bite
that's
it
yeah
you
know
anyway
I thought
we were
gonna bring
up
something
happy
well
that
is
happy
well
we
nature
is
beautiful
yeah
nature
is
beautiful
we
lived
but
you
know
there
are
happy
things
you
brought
up
nature
as
metal
this
this
is
the
difference
between
russian
americans
and americans
it's like
maybe
this
is actually
a good
time
to bring
up
your
ayahuasca
journey
I've
never
done
ayahuasca
but
I'm
curious
about
it
I'm
also
curious
about
ibogaine
iboga
but
you
told me
that
you
did
ayahuasca
and
that
for you
it
wasn't
the
dark
scary
ride
that
it
is
for
everybody
else
yeah
it
was
an
incredible
experience
for
high dose
psilocybin
never
no
I just
did
small dose
psilocybin
a couple
times
so I
was
you know
nervous
about it
I was
very
yeah
understandably
so
I've
done
high dose
psilocybin
it's
terrifying
but I've
always gotten
something very
useful out
of it
so I
mean I
was
nervous
about
like
whatever
demons
might
hide
in the
shadow
in the
union
shadow
like
I was
nervous
but
I think
it turns
out
I don't
know
what the
lesson
is
to draw
from
that
but my
experience
was
Russian
it must
be the
Russian
thing
I mean
there's
also
something
to the
jungle
it strips
away
all the
bullshit
of life
and you're
just
there
I
forgot
the
outside
civilization
exists
I forgot
time
because
like
when you
don't have
your phone
you don't
have
meetings
or calls
or whatever
you lose
the sense
of time
the sun
comes up
the sun
comes down
that's
the
fundamental
biological
timer
you know
every mammalian
species
has a
short
wavelength
so you
think
like
blue
uv
type
but
like
absorbing
cone
and a
longer
wavelength
absorbing
cone
and it
does
this
interesting
subtraction
to designate
when it's
morning and
evening
because
when the
sun
is low
in the
sky
you've
got
short
wavelength
and
long
wavelength
light
like
when you
look
at a
sunrise
it's
got
blues
and
yellows
orange
and
yellow
you
look
in
the
evening
reds
orange
and
blues
and
in
the
middle
of
the
day
it's
like
full
spectrum
light
now
it's
always
full
spectrum
light
but
because
of
some
atmospheric
elements
and
because
of
the
low
solar
angle
you
like
that
difference
between
the
different
wavelengths
of
light
is
the
fundamental
signal
that
the
neurons
in
your
eye
pay
attention
to
and
signal
to
your
circadian
timekeeping
mechanism
like
we
are
at
the
core
of
our
brain
and
the
suprachiasmatic
nucleus
we
are
wired
to
be
entrained
to
the
rising
and
setting
of
the
sun
like
that's
the
biological
timer
which
makes
perfect
sense
because
obviously
as the
planets
spin
and
revolve
I also
wonder
how that
is
affected
by
in
the
rainforest
the
sun
is not
visible
often
so
you're
under
the
cover
of
the
trees
so
maybe
that
affects
well
there
are
social
rhythms
they're
feeding
rhythms
sometimes
in
terms
of
some
species
will
signal
the
timing
of
activity
of
other
species
and
but
yeah
getting
out
from
the
canopy
is
critical
of
course
even
under
the
canopy
during
the
daytime
there's
far
more
photons
than
at
night
you know
this is
always
when I'm
telling
people
to get
sunlight
in
their
eyes
in
the
morning
and
in
the
evening
people
say
there's
no
light
no
sunlight
this
time
here
go
outside
on
a
really
overcast
day
it's
far
brighter
than
it
is
at
night
right
so
there's
still
lots
of
sunlight
even
if
you
can't
see
the
sun
as
an
object
but
I
love
time
perception
shifts
and
you
mentioned
that
in
the
jungle
it's
linked
to
the
rising
and
setting
of
the
sun
you
also
mentioned
that
on
ayahuasca
you
zoomed
out
from
the
earth
these
are
to
me
the
most
interesting
aspects
of
having
a
human
brain
as
opposed
to
another
brain
which
is
that
you
can
consciously
set
your
time
domain
window
like
we can
be
focused
here
we can
be
focused
on
all
of
Austin
or
we
can
be
focused
on
the
entire
planet
you
can
make
those
choices
consciously
but
in
the
time
domain
it's
hard
like
different
activities
bring
us
into
fine
slicing
or
more
broad
bending
of
time
depending
on
what
we're
doing
programming
or
exercising
or
researching
or
podcasting
but
just
how
unbelievably
fluid
the human
brain
is
in terms
of
its
the
aperture
of
the
time
space
window
of
our
cognition
and
of
our
experience
and
I
feel
like
this
is
perhaps
one
of
the
more
valuable
tools
that
we
have
access
to
that
we
don't
really
leverage
as
much
as
we
should
which
is
when
things
are
really
hard
you
need
to
zoom
out
and see
it
as
one
element
within
your
whole
lifespan
and
that
there's
more
to
come
you
know
I
mean
people
commit
suicide
because
they
can't
see
beyond
the
time
domain
they're
in
or
they
think
it's
going
to
go
on
forever
when
we're
happy
we
rarely
think
this
is
going
to
last
forever
but
which
is
interesting
contrast
in
its
own
right
but
I
think
that
psychedelics
while I
have
very little
experience
to the
different
apertures
well how
to surf
that wave
is probably
a skill
one of the
things I was
prepared for
and I think
is important
is not to
resist
I think
I understand
what it means
to resist
the thing
a powerful
wave
and it's not
going to be
good
so you have
to be able
to surf
it
so I was
ready for
that
to relax
through it
and maybe
because
I'm
quite good
at that
from
knowing
how to
relax
in all
kinds of
disciplines
playing
piano
and
guitar
when I
was super
young
and then
through
jiu-jitsu
knowing
the value
of relaxation
and through
all kinds
of sports
you should be
able to
relax the
body fully
and just
accept
whatever
happens
to you
that
process
is probably
why it
was a
very
positive
experience
for me
do you
have
any
interest
in
iboga
I'm
very
interested
in
ibogaine
iboga
there's
a colleague
of mine
and researcher
at Stanford
Nolan
Williams
who's
been doing
some
transcranial
magnetic
stimulation
and brain
imaging
on people
who have
taken
ibogaine
ibogaine
as I
understand
it gives
a 22
hour
psychedelic
journey
where
no
hallucinations
with eyes
open
but you
close your
eyes
and you
get a
very high
resolution
image
of actual
events
that happened
in your
life
but then
you have
agency
within
those
movies
I think
you have
to be
of healthy
heart
to be able
to do
it
I think
you have
to be
on a
heart rate
monitor
it's
not trivial
it's
not like
these
other
psychedelics
but there's
a wonderful
group
called
Veterans
Solutions
that
has
used
iboga
combined
with
some
other
psychedelics
in the
veterans
community
to
great
success
for
things
like
PTSD
and
it's
a group
I've
really
tried
to
support
in
any
way
that
I
can
mainly
by
being
vocal
about
the
great
work
they're
doing
but
you
hear
incredible
stories
of people
who are
just
like
like
near
cratered
in
their
life
or
zombied
by
PTSD
and
other
things
post-war
get back
a lightness
or achieve
a lightness
and a
clarity
that they
didn't feel
they had
so I'm
very curious
about
these
compounds
the
state
of
Kentucky
we should
check
this
but
I
believe
it's
taken
money
from
the
opioid
crisis
settlement
for
ibogaine
research
I mean
so this
is like
no longer
yes
if you
look
here
let's
see
did
they do
it
oh no
oh no
they backed
away
Kentucky
backs
away
from the
plan
to fund
opioid
treatment
research
they were
going to
use the
money
to treat
opioid
now officials
are backing
off
50 billion
what is on
its way
over the
coming years
50 billion
dollars
50 billion
dollars is on
its way
to state
and local
government
over the
coming years
the pool
of funding
comes from
multiple
legal statements
with
pharmaceutical
companies
that profited
from manufacturing
or selling
opioid
painkillers
Kentucky
has some
of the
highest
number of
deaths
from the
opioid
so they
were going
to do
psychedelic
research
with
ibogaine
supporting
research
on illegal
folks
psychedelic
drug
called
ibogaine
well I guess
they backed
away from
it
well
sooner or later
we'll get
some happy
news
up on
the
internet
during this
episode
talk
talk about
the shark
and the
crocodile
fighting
yeah
yeah
that's
true
and you
survived
the jungle
well that's
the thing
I was
I was
I was
writing to
you on
whatsapp
multiple
times
because I
was going
to put
on the
internet
are you
okay
and if
you're
like
alive
and then
I was
going to
just like
put it
to
twitter
just like
he's
alive
but then
of course
you're
far too
classy
for that
so
you
just
came
back
alive
well
jungle
or not
one
of the
lessons
just
fucking
do it
I was
going to
ask you
it's
kind of
silly
question
but like
give me
a small
fraction
of things
on your
bucket list
bucket list
yeah
go to
Mars
yeah
what's
what's
the
status
of that
I don't
know
I'm
being
patient
about
the
whole
thing
Red
Planet
ran
that
cartoon
of
you
guys
that
was
pretty
funny
that
was
pretty
funny
that
was
where
Goggins
is
already
up
there
yeah
that's
a funny
one
probably
also
true
I would
love
I would
love
to die
on
Mars
but
I just
love
humanity
reaching
onto
the
stars
and
doing
this
bold
adventure
and
taking
big
risks
and
exploring
I love
exploration
what about
seeing
different
animal
species
I'm
a huge
fan
of
this
guy
Joel
Sartori
where
he
has
this
photo
arc
project
where
he
takes
portraits
of
all
these
different
animals
if
people
aren't
already
following him
on
Instagram
he's
doing
some
really
important
work
this
guy's
Instagram
is
amazing
like
portraits
of
animals
well look
at it
look at
these
portraits
the amount
of
I don't want to say
personality
because we don't want to project anything onto them
but like the eyes
and he'll occasionally put them moving like a little owl
I delight in things like this
I've got some content coming on animals and animal neuroscience and eyes
and
dogs or all kinds
all animals
and I'm very interested in
kids content that incorporates animals
so we have some things brewing there
like I could look at this kind of stuff all day long
look at that bat
like bats
people think about bats as kind of like a little flickering a little annoying disease carrying
things but look how beautiful that little sucker is
how's your podcast with the cookie monster coming
oh yeah
we've been in discussions with cookie
the um
it's uh
can't say too much about that
but um
cookie monster embodies dopamine
right cookie monster wants cookie
right
wants cookie right now
you know like it was that
it was that one tweet
cookie monster I bounce
because cookies come from all directions
you know it's like
it's just embodying the
the desire for
for something
and
and
which is an incredible aspect of ourselves
the other one is
you remember a little while ago
um
Elmo
put out a tweet
hey how's everyone doing out there
and it went viral
and you know
the surgeon general of the United States
had been talking about the loneliness crisis
he came on the podcast
and you know a lot of people have been talking about
problems with loneliness
mental health issues with loneliness
Elmo puts out a tweet
hey how's everyone doing out there
and
everyone gravitates toward it
you know so that the different
Sesame Street characters really embody
the different
that kind of
aspects of self
through very like narrow
neural circuit perspective
um
you know snuffleupagus is shy
and um
Oscar the grouch
grouchy right
and the count
one
two
the archetypes of
yeah
the archetypes of
very young
and once again
yeah
and I think that
um
you know the creators of Sesame Street
clearly either understand that
or it's an unconscious genius to that
so
yeah
there are some
things brewing on
on uh
conversations with Sesame Street characters
it's not
I know you'd like to talk to Vladimir Putin
I'd like to talk to
Cookie Monster
it illustrates the differences
in our like
sophistication
or something
well that's
illustrates a lot
yeah
illustrates a lot
um
but yeah
I also
I love animation
so I'm
not anime
that's not my thing
but animation
so I'm very interested
in the use of animation
to get
uh
science content across
so there are a bunch of things brewing
but um
but anyway
I delight in
Sartori's work
and
and
and it's
there's a conservation aspect
to it as well
but I think that
um
mostly want to thank you
for finally putting up something
that like
where something's not being killed
or like
let some
sad
sad outcome
these are all really positive
they're really cool
they're really cool
and every once in a while
I'll look at
look at that
uh
mountain lion
um
but I also like to look at these
and and some of them remind me
of certain people
right
so let's just scroll through
like for instance
I think when we don't try
and process it too much
so like
like
okay
look at this
cat
this civic cat
amazing
like I feel like that somebody
I feel like this is like a
like someone I met once
as a young kid
curiosity
curiosity
and a playfulness
um
carnivore
carnivore frontalized eyes
found in
forced areas
right
so then you go down
you know
it's like
this beautiful fish
neon pink
right
it reminds you of some of the
like the influencers
you see on Instagram
right
except this one's natural
just kidding
um
uh
let's see
no filter
um
no filter
yeah
um
let's see
like I feel like
bears
I'm a big fan of bears
yeah bears are beautiful
this one kind of reminds me
of you a little bit
there's like a stoic
nature to it
a curiosity
so you can kind of feel
like the essence of animals
you don't even have to do
psychedelics to get there
oh look at that
he's like the behind the scenes
of how it's actually
yeah
and then there's
um
wow
yeah
yeah the
in the jungle
the diversity of life
was also stark
yeah
from a scientific perspective
just the fact that
most of those species
are not identified
was fascinating
right
it was like a little
every little
every little insect
is a kind of discovery
right
I mean one of the reasons
I love New York City
so much
despite its problems
at times
is that
um
everywhere you look
there's life
it's like a tropical reef
if you've ever done
scuba diving
or snorkeling
you look on a tropical reef
and it's like
there's some little crab
working on something
and like everywhere you look
there's life
you know in the Bay Area
if you go scuba diving
or snorkeling
it's like a kelp bed
you know
the Bay Area is like a kelp bed
every once in a while
some big fish goes by
it's like a big IPO
but like most of the time
not a whole lot happens
actually the Bay Area
it's interesting
as I've been going back there
more and more recently
um
there
are really cool
little subcultures
starting to pop up again
nice
um
there's incredible skateboarding
the GX 1000 guys
are these guys
that
that bomb down hills
they're in
nuts
like they're just
going
like
so just speed
not tricks
you gotta see GX 1000
these guys going down hills
in San Francisco
they are wild
and occasionally
unfortunately occasionally
someone will get hit by a car
but GX 1000
look into intersections
they have spotters
you can see someone there
um
oh I see
there's a
like but into traffic
yeah into traffic
so
in San Francisco
yeah this is crazy
like this is unbelievable
and
um
and they're
they're just wild
but
in any case
what's on your bucket list
that you haven't done
well I'm working on a book
so I'm actually going to
head to a cabin
for a couple weeks
and write
which I've never done
um
people talk about doing this
but I'm gonna do that
that's
I'm excited for that
just the mental space
of really dropping into writing
like Jack Nicholson
and the Shining cabin
let's hope not
okay
let's hope not
you know before
I mean I only started doing
public facing anything
posting on Instagram
in 2019
but
I used to head up
to Wallala
on the northern coast
of California
um
sometimes by myself
um
to a little cabin there
and spend a weekend
by myself
and just
read and write papers
and things like that
I used to do that
all the time
I
I
I miss that
so some of that
um
I'm trying to spend
a bit more time
with my relatives
in Argentina
relatives in
on the east coast
see my parents more
they're in good health
thankfully
I want to get married
and have a family
that's an important
priority
and putting a lot
of work in there
yeah that's a big one
yeah
yeah
yeah
putting a lot of work
um
into the
the runway on that
um
what's your advice
for people about
that
or give advice to yourself
about how to find love
in this world
how to find
how to build a family
and get there
and then I'll listen to it
someday
and see if I hit the marks
um
yep
well obviously
pick the right partner
but also like
do the work on yourself
know
know yourself
that the oracle
know thyself
and I think
um
listen
I have a friend
he's a new friend
but he's a friend
uh
who I met
for uh
a meal
he's a very very
well-known actor
overseas
and his stuff
has made it over here
and um
we become friends
and we went to lunch
and we were talking
about work
and being public facing
and all this kind of thing
and
and then I
I said you have kids
right and he says
he has four kids
I was like
oh yeah
you know
I see your post
with the kids
you seem really happy
and he said
he just looked at me
leaned in
and he said
it's the best gift
you'll ever give yourself
and he also said
and pick
your partner
the mother of your kids
very carefully
so
you know
that's good advice
coming from
excellent advice
coming from
somebody who's
you know
very successful
in work
and family
so that's the only thing
I can pass along
we hear this
from friends of ours
as well
but
um
kids are amazing
and family's amazing
and um
you know
that's the different
people
all these people
who want to like
be immortal
and like live
to be 200
or something
you know
there's also
the old-fashioned way
of you know
having children
that live on
and evolve
a new legacy
but they have
you know
half your DNA
so that's exciting
yeah
I think you would
make an amazing dad
thank you
it seems like a fun thing
and you know
I've also gotten
advice from
friends who are
uh
super high performing
and have a lot of kids
they'll say
just don't overthink it
right
start having kids
let's go
right
well the chaos of kids
is kind of the
the like
it can either bury you
or it can
or it can
give you energy
but I grew up
in a big pack of boys
always doing like
wild and crazy things
and so
that kind of energy
is great
and
and if it's not
a big pack of wild boys
it's you know
you have daughters
and they can be
you know
different form of chaos
sometimes same form of chaos
um
how many kids
do you think you want
you know
it's either
two or five
yeah
very different dynamics
you're one of two
right
you're a brother
yeah
um
I mean
I'm very close
with my sister
I couldn't imagine
having another sibling
because
there's so much
richness there
we talk almost every day
sorry
you know
three four times a week
you know
sometimes just briefly
but we're
we're tight
you know
we're
really
look out for one another
um
she's an amazing person
like truly an amazing person
and has like
raised her daughter
in an amazing way
she's like
you know
my niece is like
gonna head to college
in a year or two
and like my sister
done an amazing job
and her dad's done
a great job too
they both
really put a lot
into
um
the family aspect
got a chance
to spend time
with a really amazing person
in the
in Peru
in the Amazon jungle
and he is
one of
20 kids
wow
so he's got
it's mostly guys
so it's just a lot of brothers
and I think
two sisters
wow
I just had Jonathan Haidt
on the podcast
the guy who's
talking about
Anxious Generation
Coddling the American Mind
he's great
but he was saying
that you know
in order to keep kids healthy
they need to
not be on social media
or have smartphones
until they're 16
I've actually been thinking
a lot about
getting a bunch of friends
onto neighboring properties
you know
everyone talks about this
not creating a commune
or anything like that
but
I think
I think Jonathan's right
we were
more or less
our brain wiring
does best
when we
raised in
small village type
environments
where kids can forage
the whole free range kids idea
and I grew up skateboarding
and building forts
and dirt clod wars
and all that stuff
it would be so strange
to have a childhood
without that
yeah
and I think
more and more
as we wake up
to the negative aspects
of the digital interaction
we'll put more and more
value to
in-person interaction
so
I mean it's cool to see
for instance
kids in New York City
just kind of moving around
the city
with so much sense of agency
it's really really cool
the suburbs
like where I grew up
like as soon as we could get out
take the 7F bus
up to San Francisco
and hang out with
you know wild ones
like you know
while there were dangers
I mean
we couldn't wait
to get out of the suburbs
the moment that
you know
forts and dirt clod wars
and stuff
didn't cut it
we just like wanted
into the city
so
bucket list
I will probably
move to a major city
not Los Angeles
or San Francisco
in the next few years
New York City
potentially
those are all such
different flavors
of experiences
yeah
so I'd love to live
in New York City
for a while
I've always wanted
to do that
and I will do that
I've always wanted
to also have a place
in a very rural
area
so Colorado
Montana
are high on my list
right now
and to be able
to pivot back and forth
between the two
would be great
just for different experiences
and also I like
a very physical life
so the idea
of getting up
with the sun
in Montana
or Colorado
type environment
and I've been doing
some putting some effort
towards finding a spot
for that
and New York City
to me
I know it's got its issues
and people say
it wasn't what it was
okay
I get it
but listen
I've never lived there
so for me
it would be entirely new
and you know
Schulz seems full of life
there is an energy
to that city
and he represents that
I mean there's
yeah
and the full diversity
of weird
that is represented
in New York City
is great
yeah you walk down
this tree
there's like a person
with like a cat
on their head
and no one gives a shit
yeah that's great
right
San Francisco
used to be like that
the joke was like
you have to be naked
and on fire
in San Francisco
before someone takes it
but now it's changed
but again
recently I've noticed
that San Francisco
it's not just about
the skateboarders
it's there's
some community houses
of people in tech
that are super interesting
there's some community
housing
of people not in tech
that I've learned about
and known people
have lived there
and it's
it's cool
like there's stuff
happening
in these cities
that's new and different
I mean that's what
youth is for
they're supposed to
evolve things out
so amidst all that
you still have to
get shit done
I've been really
obsessed with
tracking time recently
like making sure
I have daily activities
I have habits
that I'm maintaining
and I'm very
religious about
making sure
I get shit done
do you use an app
or something like that
no just google sheets
so basically a spreadsheet
and I'm tracking
daily
and I write scripts
that
whenever I achieve a goal
it glows green
yeah
do you track your workouts
and all that kind of stuff too
no
just the fact that
I got the workout done
yeah
so I just
it's a check mark thing
so I
I'm really really big
on making sure
I do a thing
it doesn't matter
how long it is
so I have a rule
for myself
that I
do a set of tasks
for at least
five minutes
every day
and it turns out
that many of them
I do way longer
but just
even just doing it
I have to do it
every day
and there's currently
11 of them
and it's just a thing
like one of them
is playing guitar
for example
so do you do
that kind of stuff
do you do
like daily habits
yeah
I do
my
I wake up
if I don't feel
I slept enough
I do this
non-sleep depressed
yoga nidra thing
that I've talked about
a bunch
we actually released
a few of those tracks
as audio tracks
on Spotify
10 minute
20 minute ones
puts me back
into a state
that feels like sleep
and I feel very rested
actually Matt Walker
and I are going
to run a study
he just submitted
the IRB
to run a study
on NSDR
and what it's actually
doing to the brain
there's some evidence
of increases
in dopamine etc
but those are older studies
still cool studies
but so I'll do that
get up
hydrate
and if I've
got my act together
I punch some caffeine
down
like some matina
some coffee
maybe another matina
and
resistance train
three days a week
run three days a week
and then take
one day off
and like to be done
by 839
and then I want
to get into
some real work
I actually have
a sticky note
on my computer
it's like just
like reminding me
how good it feels
to accomplish
some real work
and then I go
into it right now
it's the book writing
researching a podcast
and just
fight tooth and nail
to stay off
social media
text message
whatsapp
youtube
all that
get something done
how long can you go
can you go like
three hours
just deep focus
if I hit a groove
yeah 90 minutes
to three hours
if I'm really in a groove
that's tough
for me
I start the day
actually
that's why
I'm afraid
I'd really prize that
those morning hours
I start with the work
yeah
and it's
it's
it's a
I'm trying to hit
the four hour mark
of deep focus
great
I love it
then
it often can't
yeah
I'm really
really big believe
it's
it's often torture
actually
it's really
really difficult
oh yeah
the agitation
but I've
sat across the table
from you
a couple years ago
when I was out here
in Austin
doing some work
and I was working
on stuff
you were
and I noticed
you just like
stare at your notebook
sometimes
just like
pen at the
same position
and then you'll get
back into it
like there are those
once you're
building that hydraulic
pressure
and then go
yeah
I try and get
something done
of value
then it
the communications
start
and talking to
my podcast producer
my team is everything
I mean
like
the magic potion
in the podcast
is Rob Moore
right
who's in the
has been in the room
with me
every single solo
Costello used to be
in there with us
because that's it
people have asked
journalists have asked
can they sit in
friends have asked
nope
just Rob
and
for guest
interviews
he's there as well
and I talk to Rob
all the time
all the time
we talk
multiple times
per day
and
you know
in life
I've
made some errors
in certain
relationship domains
in my life
in terms of
partner choice
and things like that
and
certainly don't blame
all of it on them
but you know
I've played my role
but in terms of
picking business
partners
and friends
like you know
to work with
I mean Rob
it's just
it's been bullseyes
and it's just
Rob has been
amazing
Mike Blayback
our photographer
and the guys
as I mentioned
earlier
like
we just
communicate
as much
as we need
to
and we
pour over
every decision
like near neuroticism
before we make
we put anything
out there
and
so including
like even
creative decisions
of like topics
to cover all that
yeah
like a photo
for the book jacket
the other day
Mike shoots photos
then
and then we look
at them
we pour over
them together
logo for the
perform podcast
with Andy Gallup
and then we're launching
like is that the right
contour
Mike's the real
he's got the aesthetic
thing
because he was at DC
so long
as a portrait photographer
and his cute
was close friends
with Ken Block
to Jim Conno
like all the car
jumping in the city
stuff
like I mean
Mike is a master
he's a true master
of that stuff
and
and we just
pour over
every little decision
but even which sponsors
you know
there are dozens
of ads now
by the way
that whole
Jawserciser thing
of me saying
oh yeah
guy went from
a two to a seven
I never said that
that's AI
like I would never
call it number
off somebody
a two to a seven
are you kidding me
it's crazy
so it's AI
if you bought the thing
I'm sorry
but like our sponsors
we list the sponsors
that we have
and why
on our website
and like the decision
do we work
with this person
or not
do we still
like the product
I mean
we've got ways
with sponsors
because of
like changes
in the product
or you know
most of the time
it's amicable
all good
but you know
like just
every detail
and that just
takes a ton
of time
and energy
but I try
and work
mostly on content
and my team
is constantly
trying to keep me
out of the other
discussions
but I
because I obsess
but yeah
you have to
you have to have
a team of some sort
someone that you
can run things by
for sure
but one of the
challenges
the larger the team
is
and I'd like to be
involved in a lot
of different kinds
of stuff
including engineering
stuff
robotics
work
research
all of those
interactions
at least for me
take away
from the deep
work
the deep focus
unfortunately
I get drained
by social interaction
even with the people
I love
and really respect
and all that
kind of stuff
you're an introvert
yeah
like fundamentally
an introvert
so
to me
it's a trade-off
getting shit done
versus collaborating
and I have to choose
wisely
because without
collaboration
without a great team
which I'm fortunate
enough to be a part of
like you wouldn't get
anything really done
but as an individual
contributor
to get stuff done
like to do the hard work
of researching
or programming
all that kind of stuff
you need the hours
of deep work
I used to spend
a lot more time alone
that's on my bucket list
spend a bit more time
dropped into work alone
I think social media
like
causes our brain
to go the other direction
I try and answer
some comments
and then get back to work
I'm really
after going to the jungle
I appreciate
not using the device
I've played with the idea
of like
spending certainly
maybe like one week
a month
not using social media
at all
I used it
so after that morning block
I'll eat some lunch
and I'll usually do something
while I'm doing lunch
or something
and then a bit more work
and that real work
deep work
and then
around 2.30
I do a non-sleep
deep rest
take a short nap
wake up
boom
maybe a little more caffeine
and then
lean into it
again
and then
you know
if you
I find
if you really
put in the deep work
two or three bouts
per day
by about 5 or 6 p.m
it's over
I was down at
Jocko's place
not that long ago
and in the evening
did a sauna session
with him
and some family members
of his
and some of their friends
and it's really cool
like they all work all day
and train all day
and then in the evening
they get together
and they
they sauna
and cold plunge
I'm really into this
whole thing
of
gathering with other people
at a specific time of day
I have a gym
at my house
and I
you know
Tim will come over
and train
or you know
we've kind of slowed that down
in recent months
but I think
gathering in groups
once a day
being alone
for part of the day
it's like very fundamental stuff
we're not saying anything
that hasn't been said
millions of times before
but how often do people
actually do that
and call the party
you know
like be the person
to like bring people together
if it's not happening
that's something
I've really had to learn
even though I'm an introvert
like hey
like gather people together
you came through town
the other day
and there's a lot of people
at the house
it was rad
actually it was funny
because I was getting a massage
when you walked in
I don't sit around
getting massages very often
but I was getting one that day
and then everyone came in
and the dog came in
like everyone was piled in
it was very sweet
again no devices
but choose wisely
the people
you gather with
right
right
and I was close
thank you for clarifying
I wasn't
which is very weird
yeah
yeah
the friends
you surround yourself with
that's another thing
it's like
I understood that
from ayahuasca
and from just the experience
in the jungle
it's like
just select
the people
just be careful
how you allocate your time
I just saw
on
somewhere
Conor McGregor
has this good line
I wrote it down
about loyalty
he said
don't eat with people
you wouldn't starve with
oh
that guy's
I mean
he's big on loyalty
all the shit talk
all of that
set that aside
to me
like loyalty
is really big
because then
if you invest
in certain people
in your life
and they stick by you
and you stick by them
and
what the
what else is life about
yeah
well hardship
will show you
who your real friends are
that's for sure
and
you know
we're fortunate
to have a lot of them
it'll also
show you who
you know
who really
like
has put in the
time to try
and understand you
and
and understand
people
like people
are complicated
I love that
so
can you read the quote
once more
don't eat with people
you wouldn't starve with
yeah
so in that way
a hardship
is a gift
it shows you
definitely
and it makes you stronger
it definitely makes you stronger
let's go get some food
yeah
you're a one meal a day guy
yeah
I actually ate something earlier
but it was like a protein shake
and a couple
pieces of biltong
I hope we're eating a steak
I hope so too
I'm full of
nicotine and caffeine
yeah
what do you think
how do you feel
I feel good
yeah
I was
I was thinking
you'd probably
like I only did a half a piece
and I won't have more
for a little while
but
a little too good
yeah
thank you for talking
once again brother
yeah
thanks so much Lex
it's been a great ride
this podcast thing
and you're the reason
I started the podcast
you inspired me to do it
you told me to do it
I did it
and
you've also been
an amazing friend
you showed up
in some
some very
challenging times
and
you've shown up for me publicly
you've shown up for me
in my home
in my life
and
you know
it's an honor
to have you as a friend
thank you
I love you brother
love you too
thanks for listening
to this conversation
with Andrew Huberman
to support this podcast
please check out our sponsors
in the description
and now
let me leave you
with some words
from Carl Jung
until you make
the unconscious conscious
it will direct your life
and you will call it fate
thank you for listening
and hope to see you
next time
thank you
thank you