There are no right answers for anything involved in art.
It's, we're all trying experiments to find a way.
And even for the things that I work on,
I don't have a set way that I do anything.
Every, I come to every project blank.
Maybe you're just a meat vehicle
and you're channeling ideas from somewhere else.
I believe we know close to nothing, close to nothing
about anything.
If we embrace that not knowing, we'll have a healthier experience
going through life.
The following is a conversation with Rick Rubin,
one of the greatest music producers of all time,
known for bringing the best out of anyone he works with,
no matter the genre of music, or even the medium of art,
or just the medium of creating
something beautiful in this world.
And the list of musicians he produced
includes many, many, many of the greats
over the past 40 years, including the Beastie Boys,
Eminem, Metallica, LL Cool J, Kanye West, Slayer,
Tom Petty, Johnny Cash, Dixie Chicks,
Errol Smith, Adele, Danzig, Red Hot Chili Peppers,
System of a Down, Jay-Z, Black Sabbath,
I can keep going for a very long time here.
Most importantly, Rick is just an amazing human being.
We became fast friends, which is surreal to say,
and is just an incredible honor.
I felt truly hurt as a person when I spent the day with him
eating some delicious Texas barbecue,
talking about life, about music, about art, about beauty.
This was a conversation and experience I will never forget.
This is the Lex Friedman podcast to support it.
Please check out our sponsors in the description.
And now, dear friends, here's Rick Rubin.
Are you nervous?
I'm not shaky, but I would say I feel uneasy.
And I feel like as soon as we start talking,
the more relaxed we'll get.
Yeah, well, maybe we should sit in this moment
and enjoy the nervousness of it.
Let me start with Nietzsche.
He said, without music, life would be a mistake.
What do you think he means by that?
Let's talk some philosophy.
Let's try to analyze Friedrich Nietzsche
from a century ago.
It seems like music has the ability
to bring us so much depth in our soul
that's hard to access any other way.
And without it, there would be a loss
beyond the pleasure of it.
Feels like it's a window into something else.
Something that no other medium
can express quite the same way.
I would say not as automatically.
Something about music can do it automatically.
Maybe poetry or maybe certain abstract forms
can get us there.
But there's something about music
that really can get us there quickly.
But it's also the time, the place, the history.
There's something about, a lot of my family's still in Philly.
There's something about driving through Jersey
and listening to Bruce Springsteen.
And then you just, I'll get emotional.
Like listening to like, I'm on fire.
That like, one of my favorite Bruce Springsteen songs,
there's a haunting kind of strumming to it.
It's not a strumming, it's actually picked
as a country feel to it,
almost like a Johnny Cash feel actually.
And it, I don't know, makes me feel,
so for people who don't know, I'm on fire.
That song is, I guess, a love song to a woman
that you can't have because she's married
or she's with somebody else.
Which I guess is quite a lot of love songs.
But there's something about the haunting nature of the guitar.
And then it has to be driving through Jersey.
And I feel like everyone has fallen in love
with a Jersey girl at one point in their life.
I don't know if that's true for everybody.
But I feel like that.
I haven't either, but I just feel like that.
There's something about Bruce Springsteen is like,
yeah, I've been there.
And that just takes you to a place of emotion
that you just, that captures love,
that captures longing, that captures the heartbreak
of just the way time flows in life.
And in fact, it's finite.
And just all of that in a single, simple song.
Like what else can capture that?
Yeah, I don't know.
But it's true that there's a connection
both between time and place and music.
And certain music growing up on the East Coast
didn't really resonate with me
until I spent time on the West Coast.
Eagles being an example.
When I lived in New York,
the Eagles didn't really speak to me.
ZZ Top didn't really speak to me.
And then when I started spending time in California
and driving through Laurel Canyon,
all of a sudden the music of the Eagles felt
appropriate somehow.
And I started listening to it more.
Got it.
So not until you went out West,
can you understand the sounds of the West?
So it's really like New York has a sound.
What are the places of a sound in the United States?
I think every place does.
And that said, sometimes we can get an experience
through music of a place.
Like we can resonate with the music
and not understand why.
And then maybe when we go to the place where it was created,
it's almost like we have a knowingness of that place.
It's not a strange place anymore.
Yeah, Steve Ray Vaughn with Blues and Texas Blues.
You can just listen to Texas Flood and just,
again, this is like a woman you're missing,
a broken heart and somehow that connects to the place.
The Eagles, what song the Eagles connects with you?
Are we talking about like Take It Easy
or are we talking more like Hotel California?
I'm thinking Take It Easy, but both are great.
Yeah, there's certain songs when I started learning guitar
when I was young, that's like,
I would like to be the kind of person
that not only knows how to play this song,
but understands the song and like,
have that song be something I played 20 years ago.
And I've lived with that song for a while.
Like Hotel California is an example.
The obviously there's the solo,
but there's also the soulfulness of the lyrics,
which I still don't understand.
And it could be about anything.
And as you get older,
I feel like the meaning of the song could be anything.
Yeah, I think that's true.
I think that's the beauty of them.
I think when the person wrote them,
they may have had one interpretation,
but it's not contingent on us getting that interpretation
to like it or resonate with it or feel it.
In some ways, the best art is open enough
where the artist gets to have their experience
when they make it and then the audience
gets to have their experience when they listen
and they don't have to be the same.
And then it connects thousands or millions of people together.
There's a together and there's some music
when you share that music,
when you're listening to stuff together, like in a car.
First of all, the car is a sacred place.
So I work in part on autonomous vehicles.
And you start to think what are the things you lose
when the car stops being the central part
of American life, the car ownership.
It just feels like the car when you're alone.
It's like a therapist thing session
because you get angry at other humans.
You get to sit in your own anger and emotion.
You get to listen to the song on a long road trip
and remember, like run through your memories,
the heartbreak, I don't know, the one that got away,
but also like the beautiful moments, all of it.
Yeah, and all of that in the car.
Yeah, driving also serves another purpose in it's a,
it's one of the things that we can do that
we have to pay attention enough not to crash,
but typically can essentially run on autopilot enough
where we could be thinking about something else
or concentrating on something else.
And the difference between concentrating on something
or trying to solve a problem
when you're solely trying to solve a problem
versus when you have some little task
that's keeping you occupied.
I find if I have something slight to take care of,
it frees a more creative side of my mind
to better solve problems.
You know, I'm kind of jealous of people
that found that in painting, for example,
they'll be drawing or painting and listening to,
so that's the small task you do.
You're coloring in the lines.
It's like this gentle, peaceful, slow process
that requires just a small fraction of your mind
and then you can listen.
Some people listen to podcasts that way.
Some people listen to music that way.
Yeah.
How do you do it?
How do you free your mind?
Running is one of them.
There's a process.
So the most freeing of the mind for me
has to go through a process of a bit of pain for a bit.
So doing something difficult,
it's just like an airplane taking off or something.
So that's like, for example, running.
The first few miles would just be just,
first of all, the physical aspect,
which is like, you're so fat, you're out of shape,
you're, this is, this is getting old, this, that.
Okay, that slowly dissipates.
And then the demons come in who are like,
you should be getting this and that and this done.
You haven't got it done.
You're like breaking promises,
all those kinds of voices coming in.
And after that, maybe mile four, it's like, fuck it.
You just, you just run,
run with the wind at a very slow pace,
but with the wind and then, and then you could think.
So it's the footsteps, the physical activity,
then you could deeply think about stuff.
Ideas, sort of design, whether it's program design stuff
or like high level life decisions,
all those kinds of things.
I would say running.
I used to build bridges from toothpicks.
I used to be a thing.
It's an engineering.
I guess some people like glue together airplanes
and stuff like that,
but the bridges is such deeply honest work
because at the end of it,
you're gonna have to test that bridge
and you're gonna see how good your work was,
the little details, but also the big picture.
Do you use glue or no?
Yeah, use glue.
So it's not pure physics.
It's materials engineering too.
Because the way you want to do it is
you actually split the wood as thin as possible
and then glue it back together
because the glue is really strong
except for the arches and things like that.
So you're building arch bridges,
which is a whole nother skill
because you have to bend the wood.
And it's so cool
because the thing can hold thousands of times its weight.
And then you get to watch it explode at a certain point
from the pressure and when you do a really good job,
it doesn't explode in a kind of some weak point
that you didn't anticipate just kind of starts cracking.
Everything cracks.
Everything explodes.
It's just pieces fly everywhere.
And it's literally hundreds of hours of work
just explode in front of you.
And that's a metaphor for life maybe.
And it's all for nothing
except for the journey that you took to get there.
And no one understands.
Speaking of which, back to Nietzsche.
These questions are ridiculous.
So you're gonna have to try to figure out
what the heck I'm trying to do here.
So Nietzsche also said,
a line of love, which is,
and those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane
by those who could not hear the music.
Do you, Rick Rubin, ever feel crazy?
Or maybe you're the one who's saying
and everybody else is crazy.
You know that the dancing, the joy of the music,
of just feeling the music and everybody else
just doesn't understand.
And this doesn't have to be literally about music.
This is about art, about creation.
I would say I feel different.
And it's hard to say it's like
which side of the equation is crazy, you know?
Did you ever find a group of people that you get
that get you?
Yes.
Is that what producing is essentially?
Is you tried to find the moments
when you just get each other?
No.
I would say they're definitely a certain artist
with certain temperaments.
When you're around them, it feels like
you can finish each other's sentences, you know?
Just see the world the same way.
Comedians as well.
And that's not essential for the two of you together,
creating something special.
No.
So it could be attention, too.
It could be anything.
It could be any, there's no rules.
It'd be like, think of it like a coach.
A coach could bring what they have to bring
to any talented individual and help them find their way.
And sometimes the right coach for the right athlete
really works and other times there's a mismatch.
Have you seen the movie Whiplash?
I did.
I saw it when it came out so I don't really remember it well
but I did see it.
So there's a coach type of figure.
Yes.
Who is pushing a drummer to create,
to grow as a musician,
but also to create something special.
I don't know if it's even special music skill-wise,
it's a special moment.
I don't know what he's trying to create.
From one perspective, it's just an abusive,
a person who selfishly gets off on being abusive
to those he's with.
But from another perspective, the way I saw that movie
is it's just the two right humans finding each other
at the right moment in life
and risking destroying each other in the process
but maybe something beautiful will come of it.
Do you think that's a toxic relationship?
Or is there, does some of that movie resonate with you
as that sometimes is required to create art?
That kind of suffering.
Yeah, it doesn't.
Well, there's suffering involved
but not that kind of suffering.
Not for me.
There are some people who that's their process
and that's whatever works.
There's no right answers for anything involved in art.
It's we're all trying experiments to find a way.
And even for the things that I work on,
I don't have a set way that I do anything.
Every, I come to every project blank
and see, I really listen to what the artist plays and says
and through what they explain they wanna do
help find the best way to get there.
Was it implicit in the movie
that the mean teacher liked being a mean teacher?
You said the way you described it was
that he got off on treating people this way.
Do we know that to be the case?
I don't remember that in the movie.
But we sometimes project that onto people,
people who are really rough on students.
You start to think, well, maybe,
maybe that is fundamentally who they are.
And if it's fundamentally who they are,
that there must be some pleasure in it
or it's an addiction of some sort.
But it could be also a deliberate choice
made by the teacher.
It also could be a lineage.
Like in the Zen tradition,
they're sort of the mean Roshis
who if you do something wrong, take a physical action.
And it's just in the lineage it's considered
that's how you teach.
I didn't come from that lineage.
So I'm much more of a,
I feel like it's more of a collaboration
between people working together to make the best thing.
It's not a boss-slave relationship at all.
It's much more of a, let's find our way.
And we agree at the beginning of the process
that if either of us or any of us don't like what's happening,
we say it and the goal is to keep working
till we get to a point where we're all really happy with it.
It's like if we make something
that an artist likes and I don't like
or if that I like and they don't like,
we haven't gone far enough.
In terms of lineage, the ones that seek destruction
and the ones that seek happiness
all come from the same lineage.
Well, it came from fish.
So somewhere in you, deep down there,
there's the other stuff too.
It's just that you haven't been yet, by the way,
because you said every new project,
including maybe starting today,
is an opportunity to channel, to plug into something
that was always there
and you haven't gotten a chance to plug into.
You mentioned listening.
How do you listen to a person?
How do you hear a person?
When you first come in, like we just met,
what's the analysis happening?
But I mean, with me is one thing.
I'm an artist of sorts.
I program and I'm just, I'm human.
I guess we're all creating art.
How do you see like, how do I bring out?
So for people who don't know,
I mean, obviously everyone knows
that you've produced some of the greatest records ever,
but the way I see that is you just brought out the best
in a lot of interesting artists.
And so in order to bring out the best in them,
you have to understand them.
You have to hear the music of their soul,
hopefully not being too romantic here,
but just like, is there something you can say
of how difficult that is, if there's a process,
if there's tricks, if it's luck?
I think it starts with this, again, coming in blank,
like not having any preconceived ideas being open
and really listening, listening and not thinking
about what you're gonna say next
or what your opinion is or any, you know,
not basically being a recorder
and just hearing what comes in.
And then once you hear what comes in,
processing that information and trying our best
to do that without any of the beliefs
that we might have to impact what that is.
You know, if I ask you a question,
I don't wanna hear, I don't wanna listen to you
and have any reaction happening when you're speaking
and wanna be as neutral as possible.
For me, my goal is not to form an opinion,
it's to understand.
So if anything, I would draw you out further
and just ask questions to really understand.
And if you, or if you say something that I,
that somehow triggers me in a way that that's a,
you know, I wonder how he came to that.
I would ask, I wouldn't challenge you.
I would ask like, how did you find that?
You know, how did you get to that place?
Form a place of curiosity.
You would try to figure out-
Yeah, I wanna understand who the person is
and through questioning, we can usually get there
or through just spending time together.
You find out who the person is.
What about finding out and figuring out
how to then take the next steps
of bringing out the best in them?
Like, is it just trial and error?
Like, let's try this.
It's definitely trial and error.
It's always trial and error.
Are you afraid of making a mistake?
Like, let's add this instrument,
let's remove this instrument.
Let's add this line, let's remove this line.
Let's try.
And let's be open.
It's one of the, one of the rules.
We don't really have rules,
but one of the agreements in the studio is
any idea that anyone has will always demonstrate it.
We'll always try it because I can describe to you an idea
and you can think, that's terrible idea.
Let's not do that.
And then I can play you the idea.
And then you can say, oh, that's really good.
And it's completely different.
Because when we hear, when we're told something,
we have to imagine what that is.
And the way you see something and imagine it,
and the way I see something and imagine it
are completely different.
So you say a thing and now there's two humans
that play that thing in their mind differently
in their imagination.
And then there's a cool creative step.
And when you actually do it,
to see how it differs in the imagination.
And then the difference or the commonality
will be like an exciting little discovery together.
Well, so many groups of people making things together
in a room, one person will suggest something
and someone else in the room say,
ah, that doesn't sound like a good idea.
Let's not do that.
And then they move on.
The testing of every idea is really important.
And that's how you get to see,
oh, that's not at all what I thought it was gonna be.
Happens to me all the time.
I know because someone will suggest,
why don't we do it like this?
And I'll think that sounds bad.
And then I'll think, okay, let's try it.
And then we hear it.
And then eight times out of 10,
it's nothing like I imagined and great.
And you try not to have an ego about the fact
that you thought it was not a good idea in your head.
There can't be any ego in this.
It doesn't,
if everyone's there with the purpose
of making the best thing we can,
there's nothing else.
There can't be any boundaries to that.
So there's a moment I saw with,
I know you don't love talking
about previous things you've done,
but it's cool to dive in there.
I'm fine to talk with maybe.
To sample it.
Anything?
Well, I have this pain.
I gotta talk not.
I'll think of something ridiculous
that would make you change your mind.
You mentioned, I saw a video of you with Jay-Z
looking on 99 Problems
where you suggested acapella,
opening the song with acapella.
Just no instruments, just voice.
That to me, I mean,
that's one of the characteristics of the things,
of the ways you've brought out the best an artist
is doing less.
Sort of the tending towards simplicity in some kind of way.
So that choice of acapella is really interesting
because I could see a lot of people think
that that's a bad idea,
but it turned out to be a really powerful idea.
Can you maybe talk about the simplicity?
How to find simplicity?
Why you find simplicity is beautiful.
It does appear to be beautiful.
What is that?
Yeah, I don't know where it comes from.
It has been with me from the beginning of my work,
the very first album I ever produced,
the credit I took was reduced by me
instead of produced by me for that reason.
Like, I like the idea of getting to the essential
and I have a better idea now
that I've done it for a while,
but at the time it was purely an instinctual thing.
And part of it is a sonic, there's a sonic benefit,
which is the less elements you have, you can hear
each of the ones that are there and they can sound better.
And the less there are, the more space
they could have around them
and the more you can hear their personality.
If you were to record 10 people playing the same guitar part
and you listen to it, it would sound like guitar.
And if you record one person playing a guitar part,
it sounds like a person playing the guitar.
It's different than just guitar.
And often in the studio,
the idea of building upon things and adding layers
to thicken, to make it sound bigger,
sometimes the more things you add, the smaller it gets.
So it's a lot of it is counterintuitive
until you just in practice see what works.
Try it, to try removing stuff until it's just right.
It's the Einstein thing, make it as simple as possible,
but not simpler.
That's such a, like finding a stopping place,
just keep chopping away and chopping away.
Yeah, there's something we also like to do
called the Ruthless Edit, which is,
let's say you're at a point where it can work for anything,
but I'll give you the example with an album.
We've recorded 25 songs.
We think the album's gonna have 10.
Instead of picking our favorite 10,
we limit it to what are the five or six
that we can't live without.
So going past even the goal to get to the real like heart
of it and then see, okay, we have these five or six
that we can't live without.
Now, what would we add to that?
That makes it better and not worse.
It's just, it puts you in a different frame
when you start with building instead of removing.
And you might find that there's nothing you need to add.
Sometimes, sometimes something happens
when you get to the real essence.
Then when you start adding things back,
it becomes clear that it was just supposed to be this,
this tight little thing.
Can I ask you like a therapy session question?
So I'd like, you mentioned somewhere that one way
to kind of think about music to get into music
is to look at the top like hundred albums of all time
and just go down the list and like,
just take it all in like a one piece of artwork.
And so I was doing that for a while.
It's a cool experiment.
Because unfortunately I have to admit,
I've gotten lazy and stopped taking in albums as albums.
And I looked at one interesting top hundred,
let's top 500 actually,
which is put together by Rolling Stone.
And they put, this is the therapy session part.
And this has to do with simplicity too.
They put Marvin Gaye's What's Going On at number one,
spoiler alert.
So I'd like to maybe get your opinion on that choice.
The reason that Marvin Gaye is really interesting,
it'd actually be cool to play What's Going On in a second.
But when you just listen to his like acapella,
just listen to his voice, it is really good.
Like people, it makes me wonder if it's possible
to pull off like most of his songs with no instruments.
Like in many parts, there's so much soul
in just Mercy, Mercy Me.
What's going on?
There's so many songs that you could just be like,
I wonder if you could just like, just go raw.
Or maybe in parts, or maybe do what you do with Jay-Z,
just open up with nothing.
Anyway, there's something so powerful
with a great soulful voice.
Do you mind if I play it real quick?
No, please.
What's going on?
This is probably one of my favorite songs.
I mean, it's up there.
Yeah, what's up there?
What's up, what's up?
It's just a new recording, man.
Yeah, what's up, what's up, what's up?
What's up?
That voice.
There's too many of you crying
Brother, brother, brother
There's far too many of you dying
There's some just very subtle backing vocals
You know we've found a way to bring some love into the day
This one hurts
We don't need to escalate
Father, father, we don't need to escalate
I wonder who the father he's talking about is
Oh, that's interesting. I mean I have so for people who don't know his his own father ended up
killing Marvin Gaye. Yeah
I mean that one is really pain I mean for a lot of people your relationship with your father
your mother I mean there's different dynamics but there's it's almost like part of life is
resolving some kind of complex puzzle you have with the people you love the people close to you
or the people who are not there all those kinds of things that's so much pain in that we don't
need to escalate father father I never thought if it's I always thought it's his father directly
yeah I don't get that it could be but I don't I feel like it's a more
masculine spirituality like a father figure or just broadly some kind of spirituality
could be like god father god mother god you know like could be I don't know
but there's there's so much it's like both hope and melancholy
you're saying war is not the answer it's like you you don't tell that your father war is not
your your blood father war is not the answer it's strange conversation it's a bigger conversation
than a personal don't you think it feels like war if one is personal what's the difference between
is the war is personal too it's only leaders think about war in a geopolitical sense yeah
when people that fight wars you lose your brothers you lose I mean your death is just right there
so it might feel just like that but yeah there is a dance between like the personal and like talking
to the entirety of the society it's like john lennon imagine like also a song where is that is
that hopeful is that cynical is it like melancholy like heartbroken like you you hope you wish things
would be a certain way and they're not yeah I don't know I don't know John Lennon is giving up on
the world and imagine yeah I don't know you know it's an interesting question there's another uh
John Lennon lyric um in let me think of what it is take me a second
and different songs keep coming into my head not the one that I'm looking at and you keep pressing
next um across the universe um nothing's gonna change my world and when I hear that I hear it
as hopeless but I don't think I don't believe that that's well it may be how he meant it but
I don't think that's how it's normally taken and it's also the taker is important I'm generally
optimistic and hopeful so I always like look for the hope and actually the harshest love heartbreak
songs are always somehow hopeful to me that's a love song uh to me like a song about losing love
is is a song about the great capacity for love in the human heart that's what I hear so to me
losing love is exciting because it's like that means you really cared that means you felt something
you feel something you can sit in that pain and that pain is a reminder what it means to be human
when you're that um what is it uh we're just listening uh the only man who could have reached
me was a son of a preacher man so see um it's like that early love or something or partially
sexual or whatever that's not as interesting to me it's fun it's great but it's that heartbreak
that's a reminder they can go deep although that's a damn good song have you ever heard the uh
Detroit mix of the Marvin Gaye album no call it up how much by far better mind blowing I just
heard it recently blew my mind oh wow reverb distant
interesting
I love you
just like it's all around the room more
more voices more voices
oh
he's layering his own vocals
so
just like there's multiple people singing
yeah
that's beautiful yeah it seems to have more energy if you if you listen to the whole album
even though you just said you don't listen albums anymore the Detroit mix of the whole album
changes the album a lot I mean that that felt uh so that's the opposite of a capella I would say
yes because it's say it's it's um there's layers there's um and that maybe I don't know if you
remember but if memory says me uh correct here he produces this own album here Marvin Gaye
was the producer on this I believe I believe so and this one sounds more like it's a get-together
and the whole album sounds more like a get-together which a group of people in a room playing music
together whereas the album version sounds more like an out like a recording this sounds less
like a recording and a little more like a party now you had a series of conversations with Paul
McCartney which is amazing that people should should watch but is is there this is continuing
our therapy session is there a case to be made that uh what's going on is number one album above
the Beatles white album or abbey road above pet sounds can you still manage case there's there's
always a case I mean there's always a case every there's no uh in reality in art there is no um
there's no metric that makes sense so um you could put numbers on things but it's like
is this apple better than this peach like it's not really a fair comparison
but if you just had to keep one to represent the human species that's the way I think
to the aliens so I think it's a very personal decision I don't I think you can make you can
make your choice to represent the human species and I'll make mine you know well I would pick
the Beatles over the Beach Boys so that's my if I became dictator of the world I was talking to
the aliens but I don't know the full historical context to the impact of the music I don't know
if that's something to consider like this kind of thought experiment of imagine what it was like
back then to create to go into the studio to do such interesting work in the studio
as opposed to like listening to just as a pop song almost from because I've never been able to
understand uh Beach Boys God Only Knows the song God Only Knows God Only Knows but all of it the
album the pet sounds just in my room was uh in my room pet song uh is that what's your favorite on
the album that on the pet sounds album um the opening track do you mind if I play it please
it's it's it's too fun
that's part of their trip though that you uh you open the heart with the fun
it's possible
original mono and stereo mix versions I don't know what's the opening song wouldn't it be nice
yeah that's the song
this part is good man
and then back to fun we could say good night and stay together wouldn't that be nice wouldn't it be
nice to wake up together but we're not there's heartbreak in this one too still to me like
George Harris like uh is that the white bit album while my guitar gently weeps I mean that um the
Beatles it's so hard to depending on the day I'll I'll I'll say a very different song that's my
favorite song but I often return to while my guitar gently weeps isn't my favorite song
spectacular it's spectacular and anything George Harrison honestly something something in the way
she moves the bet I what would you classify that there's like several Beatles songs categories
of Beatles songs so that's like the melancholy love songs or ballads or something like that
yesterday let it be what's do you have favorites so from your like how have you changed as a man
as a human being as a musician and music producer ever having done that lengthy interaction with
McCartney hmm anytime you're around someone who's such a hero and you spend time with them and
they're a human being it helps put perspective on everything you know like they're just human
that well obviously I mean every everyone's just human and um but I remember the first time I got
to see Paul McCartney play live it was in a stadium of 70 000 people and he started playing and I
started crying and I couldn't believe I was in even with 70 000 people I couldn't believe that
this man walks the earth and that I'm in the same place as him and he's the person who wrote that
and played that and now he's here playing it for us it's mind-blowing that's the voice
that's the it's overwhelming is it inspiring or is it um like because sometimes when you have
and I've gotten a chance to me I mean I love people in general like every every person
is fascinating to me but yeah when you've been a fan for a long time and you meet a person
a sort of uh I'll just remove present company is you um it's like oh they're just human
so there's both it's both inspiring that just a simple human can achieve such beautiful things
but it's also like almost wishing there were gods moving around us it's somehow peaceful
it's just it's more uh comforting to know that there's you know uh there's bigger fish I'm just
a small fish and then there's bigger fish and it will take care of the ocean for us I think
we're all capable of being big fish I don't think that there are special people I don't think it's
like that I would make a case so the variety of artists that you worked with and brought the best
out of it does seem the year out of this world so do you think you would know
like if you're the same kind of species maybe you're just a meat vehicle and you're channeling
ideas from somewhere else I feel like I'm channeling ideas from somewhere else a hundred percent
but I think have you asked questions about where from I believe we all I believe we all are though
you know I believe we are we're vehicles for information that when it's ready to come through
it comes through and the people who have good antennas pick up the signal but um if I'm sure
you've had an experience in your life where you've had an idea for something and you've not acted on
it and eventually someone else does it and it's not because they're doing it because you had the
idea and they stole your idea it's because the time has come for that idea and if you don't do it
someone else is going to be broadcast by whatever the source whatever the source is uh yeah I tend to
I tend to see humans is not quite special in that way yeah it's it's different kinds of antennas
walking around listening to ideas and ideas that are I like the the notion of uh Richard Dawkins
of memes it's kind of the ideas of the organisms and they're just using our brains to multiply to
to select to compete to to evolve and and humans we really want to hold on to the
specialness of our body of our mind but it's it's really the ideas so for a group that was born
two centuries ago you wouldn't be a music producer you'd be or I mean maybe but you have an antenna
yeah and if no signals coming in uh or you'd be hearing a potentially a different signal
is there um I think we all have our own antenna for whatever it is that we you know maybe not
everyone has tuned into their antenna to see what it is that their strength in bringing through is
I'm lucky in that it found me because I didn't know that it was a I didn't even know this was a job
I sometimes wonder I mean a lot of young people a lot of people wonder like what's the purpose
and the the specs of my antenna
what am I put on this earth to do like if um you know I I can live a thousand lives
there's so many trajectories and imagine the greatest possible trajectory that reveals
the the most beautiful thing I can possibly create in this world live in the most beautiful way
what is that I feel like that's a good exercise to think about
because it's also liberating to think that you can do anything I mean that
more and more I suppose that's kind of life it's like society is pushing conformity on you
you know I thought I had my own flavor of conformity I thought I'm supposed to be following
and then early on I would say like in the late 20s you realize wait a minute you don't have to
tell you don't have to do what teachers tell you to do what parents tell you to do what society
tells you to do you can like um I would never wear a suit if I listen to like my colleagues in
community who think a suit is like the symbol of um what is it a symbol of conformity actually
which is hilarious but uh it's actually a kind of rebellion and everything else like of that
nature doing doing these silly podcasts like um I have a question I have to ask sure because you
brought up the suit yeah uh do you wear the suit is this your daily uniform outside of podcasting
so I for the longest time it was some kind of suit and then recently I mean coinciding with
going to Texas there's uh I'm such a loner I'm an introvert and there's a bit of a hiding from the
world when I wear other stuff I really want to um to not make fame recognition money all of those
things a motivation at all and the world kind of wants you to make those motivations not not the
world but I would say maybe the western world or maybe America maybe a capitalist system does
but that's a choice to buy into that or not right it takes a brave person a person of character to
not buy in and I'm I'm like a like a baby deer trying to find its legs you don't have to buy in
because I love people and I think I'm kind of an idiot and so when other people say do this and do
that it uh there's a there is a pressure there it's actually very difficult to not listen necessarily
to the advice of others and yet keep yourself fragile and open to the world it's easy to be like
I'm always right you know just kind of sticking your ground but if you want to be like vulnerable
if you want to connect with people and just wear your heart on your sleeve then you're going to
listen to them I mean that's the double-edged sword of it and uh but then again that pain like if you
don't let it destroy you can grow grow from that has fame affected you at all did you unplug from
the system at some point same I've always been sort of removed I don't feel like I'm part of
any system do you feel famous I'm aware that when I go out people you know say nice things to me
which is great but that's about it that's about as far as but it doesn't affect your art about
your creativity or your thoughts like when you're sitting alone and thinking about the world it
can't it's a destructive force the the thing the reason that you are who you are and the reason
that you're finding the success you're finding is because you've been true to yourself to get to
that stage so to start changing that to conform to either conform to someone else's idea what you
should be doing it's just seems like uh doesn't make sense do you have a sense of who you are
because I don't necessarily have a I don't know I I know that I really like making good things
and I know that I'm crazy about it in that it's like an obsession and I want things to be as
good as they could be whatever it is and if I'm if I finish a music project and I have a window
of time where I'm not working on music I might be moving the furniture around in the house you
know I'm always looking for a prod a creative outlet to find a way to make something better
or there was a period of time where I was in a weird corporate situation that was uh
that didn't allow me to flourish and I turned I focused the creativity in on myself and I
lost a bunch of weight and changed my life and so that was the kind of art like you've
gone through a whole process of losing weight getting a shape getting healthy that was a kind of
creative act it certainly was it wasn't an intentional creative act but I had a lot of energy
and I just a series of events happened I read a book at the time that was my heaviest so
I weighed about 318 pounds yeah and I'd never been I'd been sedentary my whole life basically
laying on a couch working on music so I've never been physically active in my life
and I read a book about a guy named stew middleman a runner who ran 1,000 miles in 11 days
and I thought wow I you know get out of breath walking to the corner
and another human being can run 1,000 miles in 11 days I feel like I have bad information
you know I'm doing clearly I'm doing something wrong and um and I reached out to a person
that stew mentioned in the book Phil Maffaton who's a legend I really appreciate him as well
he's math 180 method do he's such an interesting I think he focuses on heart rate training and
he was the first person to talk about um essentially uh low carbs paleo keto
diet 40 40 years ago and for a person who's going to be healthy who can exercise and actually
perform at an early level he's the first person when I um you know talk about heart rate training
him and other endurance athletes he influenced he gave me permission to like run slower yeah
it's the first time I realized oh I can run long distances if I just run slower and and I take
that seriously and I actually fell in love with running very much so because for me everyone's
different but for me the love of running happens in the longer distances yeah did you read born to
run great book amazing book there is something special about running and everybody has their own
their own journey with it and even ultra marathon running those kinds of things
it's it's a it is like many journeys one that can pull you in like you won't be the same person
after and I try to be delivered about making deliberate about making choices after which
you will not be the same person and so I'm nervous about like the ultra marathon running world
um I have to talk to you about Johnny Cash
I mean when people ask me what my favorite musical thing is of all time
I'm you know it's a very difficult question to answer of course but I'm pretty quick
if I'm not allowed to pick anything by Tom ways I'm pretty quick to say
they hurt by Johnny Cash the performance the whatever you call it whatever the heck that is
because that's not just a song covered by an artist that's a human being at the end of their life
that the rawness of that the I mean just that there's also a music video which for a lot of
people adds a lot to it for me just the music alone is I mean the guitar every choice on that
see the the few things I've heard about it it seemed like almost accidental I mean like little
subtle choices here and there can you maybe comment on that um do to the degree I think
you had a huge role in sort of bringing Johnny Cash back from from a different part of his life
it's like bringing something out that wasn't there before and it was it was it was incredible
it was a celebration of a really special musician and it's totally new kind of celebration
that hurt is just one of the songs that's that's a that's an amazing celebration
of Johnny Cash but hurt is like at the at the at the peak of that so what was that like
putting that song together okay maybe it might be nice to listen to it because I
freaking love that song and as a guitarist I just the simplicity of it
it seems like every choice contributes to the greatness of the song
it's simple it's crisp but it's dark too
it's one of the greatest opening lines of any song
the shape that's that yeah to see if I still feel yeah I'm talking about the
lyrics I don't even mean the performance the words
but those words out of Trent and Resner are not the same they have a different meaning
coming out of Johnny Cash's mouth
what have I become
um my sweetest friend written probably for a young man I think he was 20 when he wrote it
to Trent
the way the guitarist played the choice of instrument the layers there the uh the freedom
to give him to use the voice that's um fading it's not fading it's changing maybe he's losing
some aspects of his voice and it's and it's it's almost like shaking a little bit
it and it's a little bit out of tune in parts uh how much of that was deliberate how much was
like how do you give Johnny Cash the freedom to do that how do you find that together is there
any insights you can give I think it's a it's a case almost of like the right pairing the right
role with the right actor you could say the the song lyrics the reason we chose the song
was because of the lyrics purely about the lyrics and at that point in time both Johnny and I would
send each other songs of possible ideas to record and um that was one that I sent him and he didn't
respond to initially I sent I would send him see at that time he would burn CDs and I would send
him like CD at 20 songs or 25 songs and then and he would send them to me you burn a CD for Johnny
Cash and you send him uh of different songs like songs to consider recording yeah um and we would
send these back and forth and then that I had hurt on one of the ones that I sent him and he
didn't respond to him usually if he didn't respond we didn't go back to it you know and that one I
remember I sent it again and I put it first on the next on the next CD and um and when when we
spoke about when he listened to CD again he didn't respond I said check out that first song and I
really feel like that one could be good what did you see in that song it's the lyrics it's the
lyrics because I feel like nobody there's very few people in the world that would see these lyrics
in Johnny Cash's mouth and think this is a good idea including Trump isn't it yeah I know that
Trent was Trent had trepidations in the beginning um but if you listen to the words if you forget
the music and if you get what if you forget what Ninage Nail sounds like and you just read it like
a poem and then you imagine a 70 year old man reading these lyrics it'll be it'll be profound
it's profound so that was the based on the lyrics that started the journey and then at this point
in time Johnny was not in great health and uh sometimes I would go to Nashville and record
with him at his house sometimes he would come to California but he was coming to California less
regularly and because there was there were so many songs we wanted to try he would start sometimes
recording just a straight acoustic version like he would have someone play guitar he would sing
and they would send those to me and we would discuss like is this one to build on um and that
was one where he said I don't want to record this one until we're together I feel like we should do
this one together so on the next trip to California we recorded it at my at my old house
and
I mean all the songs we recorded felt special so I can't say this one felt special
but lyrically it just it's more the the lyrics have such a profound
sense of regret what have I become yeah and to hear when you're 20 years old talking about regret
yeah it's heartbreaking but it's heartbreaking in a different way because you have a whole life to
figure it out when you're looking back over your life at the end of your life with regret
it's brutal yeah it's brutal so that was the initial spark of doing it and then we when we
recorded it I believe it was um two guitar players if I remember correctly maybe even three um
Smokey Hormel Matt Sweeney and Mike Campbell I believe and Ben Montenge was playing the piano
in my living room as we were doing it and we cut the basic track and with Johnny singing and then
Johnny probably sang over that basic track a few more times and then we come to his vocal and then
built up the drama and you didn't get to the part but at the end of the song it gets very loud the
music gets very loud it's subtle because it's not anything that takes your ear and the vocal is so
powerful that you don't really think about what's going on but it's building the whole time music
it's building and it even gets distorted at the end it gets really uh like over overpowering
and that's part of the emotion of it yeah it's uh
I hear almost the anger and frustration
and it just rings out the clean vocal and it's so simple so incredible and it's interesting to
have a young man's lyrics in in an old Johnny Cash voice and heart and mind I had um are you a
fan of Tom Waits of course uh Tom Waits you know his younger had his this is a song called Martha
but there's a bunch of songs he's written when he was young was like how does a young man have that
like melancholy wisdom the song Martha is about uh an older man calling a woman he used to love
that she's now married and he's married and they're having that conversation they haven't spoken for
30 years and they realize that they're still loved there and it could have been a different life a
different world where they could have been together and here's like a 23 year old Tom Waits
writing so beautifully about something that's very uh I've had a lot of people like tell me how
real that uh as an older person looking back at that love that you had and realizing it wasn't
it was really it's still there inklings of that love are still there I think there's a um
um when a young person writes a sad song
they almost seem more willing to go to a more hopeless place because they have
they have a lot of time ahead yeah and older artists tend to want to look at the bright side
of things which which also I think comes from the wisdom of aging it's it's a more realistic position
so it's not uncommon for younger people to write I think even in the Beatles you'll see like
they're very heavy lyrics um middle to late era Beatles which is still you know they're
in their 20 you know early 20s I guess wow that's hard to think about so much accomplished unbelievable
and they they went through the full journey from fun to darkness in a span of a few years
you mentioned lyrics um so you've obviously produced albums with incredible lyrics I think
you've mentioned the interesting characteristics of hip hop of rap is that your writing poetry to rhythm
versus writing poetry to melody so that's like one way to think about it and I'm a fan I mean Tom
Waite's letter coin I'm a fan of poetry period is there something um about highlighting the
poetry of it the power of words as you did with with hurt if uh like if I have to play it's one
uh uh a Tom Waite song that's like less than a minute long that I've always go back to it's
one I really love and it has just a few lines it's called I want you and all it is is him saying I
want you I want you you you this is a 22 year old Tom Waite's all I want is you you you
you all I want is you
give you stars above sun on the brightest day
give you all my love if only you would say and I want you you you
all I want is you you you
and then you hear hums for 20 more seconds yeah beautiful so so some man that young man like
well and but for people who don't know Tom Waite's you should definitely listen to him
and his voice sounds very different now and it's interesting to see the evolution of a human voice
the the artist over time because that's a young like boylike voice hopeful less clever
less witty more simple that simplicity is there and he's not I mean that takes guts to be so simple
I would say it lyrically and musically is there sort of laying that out on the table
is there ways to that you like to highlight the voice the lyrics or is there's no one rule
so do you what is the thing that makes music special is it the rhythm the melody the
the uh or is ultimately the lyrics are always there or the idea you just asked me five different
questions I don't care I'll just get back it's not about you you don't want the answers I don't
want to have but okay I'll listen I look forward to your comments the internet okay
you have the greatest producer of all time in front of you and all you can't shut the hell up
that's right friends uh is but you do value lyrics is there a way to celebrate lyrics
I value lyrics if the lyrics are important I'm not a lyric person I'm very much uh
whatever the thing that makes the thing good is the thing that I'm drawn to for me um for a
long time lyrics meant very little I would say from the really yes beginning yes from the earliest
day for your right to party beastie boys yeah it was it was fun I thought they were good lyrics
but it wasn't what was important I mean it was in a in a almost a novelty way not in a serious way
early in my career I was much more focused on the rhythm first the rhythm and I would if the
lyrics weren't good enough I would be aware of it but it wasn't the driving force for me and eventually
over time then melody became an important piece which it wasn't in the beginning and then lyrics
became more important over time but it's always been a always changing what what draws me in
and one of the things I found as it relates to lyrics that that can give a lyric a different
power has to do with rhythm where if there's no drum the lyrics tend to mean more
so earlier what you were saying about if it was just acapella you felt you felt Marvin
gain a different way hearing the acapella can you comment on I mean in terms of one of the greatest
albums ever why does it sound so raw her voice she's just a great singer but this is that you're
not doing anything else you're doing the uh there's there's there's the strumming and then there's
just a single beat and then it builds
fire starting in my heart reaching a fever bitch and it's bringing me out the dark
the scars of your love for my heart feels like it's a giant orchestra
and we almost had it all the scars of your love they leave me breathless I can't help feeling we couldn't
kind of feel your love forget about that there's back in both the
the anger I love it
like I just there's something about uh such a powerful voice and the instrument's not getting
in the way I mean the same with the with hurt and Johnny Cash it is there um why does it sound so
like raw it's the same as the hurt there's a it feels like you're in the room with them
it feels like they're not even singing they're like uh they're literally freshly mad and angry I
think those are the things that make great singers sound like great singers it's not it's not anything
that that's happening in the studio I mean we're I would say the only thing that us in the studio
can do is kind of get out of the way and not not ruin it you know it's like that's that's what comes
through of these these people I should also before I forget there is a lot of song choices on that CD
I would love to see the full options on the CD that you sent to Johnny Cash that I love
so Solitary Man is one of my favorite choices made there uh is that is that a Neil Diamond song
it's funny to talk about the Miss songs because I tend to I tend to listen more to albums than
songs so is he really you're that's what you're doing your head you're pulling up the album
essentially no I'm like I'm going to that song but I don't know I've never listened to that song
but I know that when that when that song comes up in the sequence of the album it has a really
powerful effect in me let's see what it does if you just started
yeah
if you could read my mind oh it's so interesting wow
just like an old time movie a lot of ghosts from a wishing well in a castle dark
are a fortress strong with chains around my feet you know that ghost is me
me and I will never be set free as long as there's a ghost that you can't see
that's beautiful such a beautiful choice beautiful melody such a beautiful melody in
haunting words song so simply I have to uh I mean so uh I was born in the Soviet Union
when when you when you're growing up uh there's a few bands that kind of I mean they're probably
forbidden still but they seep in and you get like uh bootlegged and and they somehow take over the
culture of the young of the young folk such as myself so uh on the metal side it was Metallica
and Iron Maiden and uh on the I don't know what you call them but Beastie Boys I remember hearing
uh a fight for you right and it was just like for some reason that stuck as it did for a lot of
people in Russia is like wow America is when you get the safe fuck you to the man the rebellion
the freedom um I probably heard it a few years after was released because it kind of it dissipates
to the culture you get the bootlegged it means hard to get your hands on but I just remember
me I I wanted to kind of bring that up because it was such a personally important song to me
and yet probably you didn't even think of that you probably thought of it as its role in the
culture here in the United States like in terms of musically but I was you know 20 20 21 years
old and we just well you were that kid too right we're just making fun songs for our friends it
was no there was no uh expectation that's just a fun song yeah no one thought we never imagined
anybody would like any of it one of the greatest albums ever yeah
I have to it's I love this so much I just remember this is America
yeah I didn't even know I didn't even understand the lyrics to be honest
so
You gotta fight for your right to grow, yeah
So hearing that and hearing Metallica, Master Puppets, I was like,
I knew I'm gonna have to end up in America one day.
I mean, maybe now that I'm more mature or maybe a little bit more mature, I
realized like that was kind of the longing for freedom.
It felt like, at least at the time, if this is allowed then anything is allowed.
Yeah.
And I think that the rebellion of it, I guess it's also fun, I just loved it.
Is there, if you look back to that, because you're a, I mean, you're that person,
not just the producer, it feels like-
Well, yes and no, like it was, even to us then, it was still like satirical.
You know, wasn't it?
Oh, absolutely.
But isn't like music in part, like you're dancing in the line, is part satirical,
part serious in the sense, like you're losing yourself in the satire?
Like anytime you go over the top, isn't that part of the,
or is it explicitly satirical?
You're making fun, I mean, girls, there's a lot of ridiculous songs in that album.
I don't know, I just think it's, it was definitely to make each other laugh,
like we were trying to make each other laugh.
We weren't trying to make a point, we were trying to make each other laugh.
But that person, how's that person different than the person today in you?
The person that produced that record?
I wouldn't say so different, like it really is that, that I like things that make me laugh,
you know, I like ridiculous things.
The same person still.
I think so.
That is a strange, just how many incredible.
I mean, I wouldn't, I don't think I would make that today,
but I understand why we made it when we did.
It's in the vocabulary of ridiculous that would make sense to do, you know,
for the right artist today could make something ridiculous and gives you that feeling.
I mean, there's just a sense when you make so many different albums,
then you look back at that creation and it can feel like a different person created that.
But you're making it seem like if you travel back in time,
or maybe do a memory replay, you'd be able to hang out with the, with the teenage
in the twenties or grubin.
I don't think, I don't think I was so different, honestly.
That's hilarious.
It's funny, I ran into someone recently
in Costa Rica, who I hadn't seen in a long time and who I knew from the New York days when,
those days.
And, and we spent a couple of hours talking and she said,
you're exactly the same person that you were then.
So I have a short, you know, a recent confirmation that that's the case.
That's beautiful.
Was it, Tim Ferriss asked you about like who's the most successful person, you know,
that's the definition of success, I would say.
It's exactly the same person.
You haven't lost yourself or rather you found yourself early on.
I would say there are aspects of me that have changed for sure.
But I can't say that it's necessarily better.
It's different.
I would say at that time, I was more confident than I am now.
And I'm very confident now.
But then I had an unrealistic confidence.
And I think now it's a little more based in reality.
At that point in time, I'd never been depressed.
And then once you go through a depression,
well, some people, I know in my case, when I went through a depression afterwards,
I was a different person than I was before.
And I feel more grounded now than I did then.
And I probably relate to the artists who so many of the artists I work with suffer.
So many artists suffer because that's part of what makes an artist great is their level of sensitivity.
That the same thing that makes an artist uncomfortable, other people don't feel at all.
The time you were depressed, what was the darkest moment in your life?
What took you there?
How did you get out?
It was triggered by a person making a comment about something to do with work
that didn't matter.
To anyone else, they would hear that and they would just be like,
okay, we'll deal with it next week, whatever.
But for some reason, I took it in a way that I felt like the rug had been pulled out from under me.
Even beyond the rational part of it, of understanding,
you know, even after the problem that came up was solved,
it somehow undermined something in me and made me feel very vulnerable
in a way that I hadn't felt before.
And it spiraled.
How did you get out?
I did a lot of different kinds of therapy.
I did starting with alternative therapies.
I was seeing, I would say, between seven and eight doctors and or therapists a week.
Acupuncture, talk therapy, herbs, any possible modality.
Tried everything for a long time and nothing seemed to have an impact.
And then finally, I'm wary of taking any Western medicine.
I'm not a drug taker or drinker or partier in any way.
And I found a psychopharmacologist who was a psychic.
But because she was a psychic, I was okay to see her because she's like,
I'll do, I'll listen to a psychic.
But I'm not going to listen to a psychopharmacologist.
But the fact that she had the psychic that made her fit into my worldview.
And she recommended antidepressant, which went terribly wrong in the first night that I took it.
And then that set me on a journey of looking for the right antidepressant,
which was a long and painful process.
That's a heck of a journey.
Every one that I took made me sick, everyone.
And then finally, so I don't know, five months later, six months later,
I found the magic one that worked for me.
And it shifted me out of the depression.
I took it for, my camera was six months or a year and then weaned off and was okay.
And then I had another event some years later.
I think I took it again for a short period of time and got out of it.
And I've not needed it since.
Were you able to kind of introspect the triggers that led to the events?
Is there something or is it random events of life?
I think it's more that because of the way that I grew up,
I never had to deal with much controversy.
And when I was challenged, I didn't have any ability to deal with it.
It's like, you know, Jonathan Haidt talks about, it's like that.
So you've actually also mentioned like business sometimes gives you stress.
So this was business related stuff.
Yeah.
It was a business related thing.
It just made me feel bad.
It's one of the sadder things about art and music is that it's often
interleaved with business folk.
As opposed to the way of the world, if you have a capitalist system, but it makes that
business folks rubbing up against artists can sometimes destroy a fragile mind and soul.
To me, one of the best representations of an artist, honestly,
Johnny I have the designer from Apple and he's just so fragile with his ideas.
And you talked about like when he has ideas, he really wouldn't show it to Steve Jobs or
anybody except for the small design team.
Because he was so nervous that it would, it would break.
Let's give it a chance.
Let it give it a chance to grow.
And it seems like the outside world, business people, PR people, people that kind of
have not lost themselves in the passion of creating, but instead of kind of representing
or like making deals, all that kind of stuff, they can kind of trample on those little ideas.
And it's sad to see.
It's really hard breaking to see because you know how much trampling there's going on.
It's one of the main jobs.
My job as a record producer is to keep the, keep the voices away from the artist,
from all the people who are really on their side, but don't know, you know, like the,
whether it be people, anyone on the business side who doesn't make things,
they're excited to do their part.
You know, they're excited.
If when you deliver the thing, the art that you make to me, then we can start the project.
But there's nothing to sell if the art doesn't happen in the right way.
And it has to be protected.
And it can't happen on the same kind of a timetable that business can.
It's just a different thing.
It doesn't, art doesn't come in a quarterly way.
And that doesn't apply just to music or it applies to art.
It applies to all creative pursuits.
Like this is generally the case.
Like at MIT, it's just, there's the administration.
And then there is the professors and students.
And the professors and students are the creative folk.
They create stuff, they dream, they have wild ideas that go on tangents and so on.
They have hopes and they go with those and they get like on these weird passionate pursuits.
And then the administration can often just trample on that.
And they set up bars in all kinds of ways that you think you're not actually hurting.
But you really are.
And, you know, I won't mention why, but because this happens to everybody.
And I have a large amount of leverage at MIT now, but even I get a little bit of pressure
in such stupid ways to like, don't like, be careful.
Be careful.
Like we really want your career to succeed.
Be careful.
And that little pressure to an artist, you know, do you want to go acapella?
Do you want to go, do you want to do a country record?
Like be careful.
Like you're already a superstar.
Be careful.
And then in that way, you kind of push people like flock of fish into one fish tank where
they're all the same.
And it's sad to see.
And it's obviously in the modern world, there's nice mechanism to protect,
to let artists flourish a little bit more because they get to put themselves to the
world and get a little bit more confidence.
Maybe different funding mechanisms, all that kind of stuff.
A tremendous problem that the voices that don't understand interfere with the process is huge.
The other side of it is in success, there can be a lack of reality where all of the people
around the successful person just tell them everything they do is great.
And then they don't have anything to bump up against anymore or have a realistic
sense of how things work or how things measure.
So both sides are really important, both avoiding the voices getting in the way
and having a trusted group of Asanga, a group of people who can say,
you know, I don't know if that's as good and you can still say, I don't care what you think,
that's fine.
But it helps to hear it.
You know, it helps to have, if someone who you respect tells you something isn't good enough,
it's helpful.
When you know it comes from a place of love, when it comes from a place of wisdom.
100% and not from a place of fear, not from a place of, oh,
this doesn't sound like it's going to do as well as your last thing.
That's not the point.
The point is on this quest for greatness, are you living up to your ability?
By the way, is there something interesting to say about your worldview?
Because you mentioned psychic and sort of the ways we can be healthy,
the ways we can grow and how much maybe medicine or science has the answers.
Is there some interesting way to describe that worldview?
I would just say I'm open-minded.
I believe anything's possible.
And if I was going to trust in any practical information,
it would be something thousands of years old.
There's wisdom in that history.
Yeah.
Well, it's more tested.
It's not always right, but at least it's been somewhat tested.
Science is also tested.
The thing I'm a little bit skeptical of sometimes is just the hubris that often comes
with the modern, with the latest, the newest, the feeling like you figured it all out.
Everything that's been done in the past has no wisdom.
And we basically solved every problem.
There's nothing else to be solved.
I mean, that's the defining characteristic of any age is like,
we've solved all the problems there are.
We've had the final answers and our parents are all stupid.
That kind of energy.
You have to be extremely, extremely careful with that when it talks about,
when you think about something as complex as the human body or the human mind,
you have to be very, very careful.
I believe we know close to nothing.
Yeah, exactly.
Close to nothing.
About anything.
About anything.
About anything.
That place of humility is a good place to start to figure it all out.
And in the end, we'll still know almost nothing.
Yeah, I don't think we need to know.
It's like we need to see what works.
So we need to see what works for us.
It's interesting to know.
I know on the art side, knowing how it works isn't what makes it work.
You know, isn't the magic of it isn't how it works.
The magic is the magic.
Right. And the magic happens in a way that's intuitive and accidental at times
or incidental where you're trying many things and all of a sudden something works
and you don't know why.
And it's okay not to know why.
It doesn't really matter why as long as it does the thing that you want it to do, whatever that is.
Yeah, that's so weird.
When you know the components, you know, you still, yeah, the magic, what's the magic?
Where is the magic?
Like we know the components for stuff I care about artificial intelligence.
We know the components of a powerful computing machinery.
But where does consciousness come from?
What is that?
Where does the brilliant moments of insight come from?
What's that?
When, even in simple games of chess or in simple word of those breakthrough ideas
of taking the big risk that doesn't make any sense and then all of a sudden it becomes something
beautiful.
Yeah, we don't need to understand why it just happens.
It just happens.
And often the things that end up breaking through don't break through in the way we thought
or turn out to be a third iteration of something that we thought was an entirely different thing or
we don't know.
And I think it's, if we embrace that not knowing, we'll have a healthier experience going through life.
You made a lot, it's not just music, everything.
We're arranging the chairs, the furniture as well.
You've done, like I said, the documentary, I guess you would say, with Paul McCartney.
And you've done a podcast yourself, a broken record podcast, and you've done conversation too.
So what have you learned from that process about the art of conversation and also maybe
what advice would you give to this, to me about what to do with conversation?
Like what is interesting to you about conversation?
One of the things that I like is to not feel like there is any stakes or that it's actually,
almost that it's not happening.
Like the fact that when I came in, you were setting up cameras, made it less good for me.
I knew that that would impact the conversation in a negative way.
The best version of it would be if we didn't see the cameras and we didn't see any technology
and we were just sitting at this table having a conversation.
Maybe even if we were mic'd beforehand, it would be okay if it was necessary.
But then we were just sitting here having a conversation, no people in the room,
nothing, and feeling like we're just having a conversation.
I feel like it would get closer to the relaxed feeling.
Same thing we do in studios, like you've heard of red light fever,
when artists get nervous, when they play a song, great.
And then the tape starts rolling and they can't play it.
And we're all to some degree like that.
When you were with Paul McCartney, were you cognizant of cameras?
We had the room black.
Everybody who was working there was dressed in black.
Everything was invisible.
We were lit in a way where even though there were probably 20 people, between 12 and 20 people
working in the room, within three minutes of starting the conversation, Paul and I were alone
in the room.
So that was the feeling.
On occasion, you'd hear a noise and it would be weird.
People, we also had nobody was allowed to wear shoes because we were trying to create this
intimate space. And I know from in the recording studio, when we're recording,
if even one person is there that's just watching and not working, like there's usually,
I'm usually there and an engineer is there technically making it happen.
If anyone else is in the room, it's different because then it goes from
this moment where the person's doing a performance to the sense or where the person is
feeling something internally and we're capturing it to the other version is
they're performing for someone.
It's so interesting.
So like to push back and the alternatives here.
So one, about the third person, not to make people self-conscious,
but I find that I'm so torn on that because sometimes when that person,
so Evan is in the room here, he's been in the room before.
He's a huge fan of yours, by the way.
So he'll nod.
Yeah, he'll get excited.
He's like, and you can see that nodding.
And for some reason for me, he's like, yeah, you get it.
Like, yeah, you get excited together.
I mean, that third person can be like a really special, so having an audience
when it's a friend or somebody that has that love in them.
It depends on the performer.
It's all positive.
Yeah, some people really thrive in front of an audience.
And you're saying you like that simple intimacy of everything dissipates.
Well, I like the reality of it now.
Being that I want it to be as far from a performance as possible.
Got it.
And if someone, I'll tell you a story, a story that just happened,
and it was viewed as kind of a, it seemed uncool in the moment
to the person that it happened to.
It wasn't at all.
We were recording New Chili Peppers album, which is coming out, I think, any day now.
Like, I don't know what today's date is, but within the next,
maybe by the time this airs, it will be out.
And the band was playing in the studio, and it was ripping because they're incredible.
And one of the members walked through the control room after a particularly great performance.
And the engineer said, wow, that solo was really great.
And the person who heard this said, please don't say that and walked away.
It's like, it was not, it just changed this feeling of we're in this place where we're
doing this thing and there's, there is no outside world.
You know, we're doing this for us.
We're going as deep as we can for us.
And as soon as there's an acknowledgement to someone else, in a way,
it breaks the concentration of being inside of it.
That's so well told.
And, but it's something about saying, wow, that solo was great is,
it shows the, it reminds you that there's an outside world, but I feel like there's a way
to enter the inside world as an audience.
So you just have to do that.
So it matters what you say.
It matters how you look.
It matters.
So there's like these generic compliments, not generic, but they, they sound in the way
an outside world would interact as opposed to in that creative thing where you're dancing
around the fire together or something.
There was actually, I can tell you, there's another interesting one that happened to me,
and I didn't know this until I saw the film of it, which was a strange one.
We were recording with the Avit brothers, and the song was called No Hard Feelings,
and it was this recording of No Hard Feelings.
So,
great boys.
So beautiful.
So bright, so hopeful, so lighthearted.
And love involved, love in the words, love in the songs they sing in the church,
and no hard feelings.
Lord knows they have been done, much good for anyone.
Can't be afraid of cold, with so much to hide at home.
Well, my body won't hold it all, and if I leave, let's be free, where will I go?
Does he sound as good as he did, yeah?
Yes, every bit.
Take me south, through Georgia rain, or tropical rain, or snow from the heavens.
Will I join with the ocean blue, or run into the Savior's room, and shake hands laughing,
and walk through the night, straight to the light, holding the love I've known in my life,
and no hard feelings.
Lord knows they have been done, much good for anyone.
Can't be afraid of cold, with so much to hide at home.
Under the burning sky, I'm finally learning why, it matters for me and you to say it to me,
for life is all we have, because it's been to me, I have no enemies.
I have no enemies.
He's got the power of Jeff Buckley, with so much more flavor to the voice,
he can go so many different places.
It's cool when it's like an acupunctologist, most of him, he could do like hallelujah,
the Jeff Buckley way I could tell.
It's incredible, that's an incredible song.
Is this a new record?
But what happened with this, that happened, and I mean, they're great, and it's always good,
but that performance in that moment felt like the sky open, it was unbelievable.
But this was a single take?
This was a single take?
Oh, wow.
That was just like-
That was incredible, yeah, that was perfect.
So when it ended, I said, great, what do you want to do next?
And they said, we just need a few minutes, they walked out, and that's all I knew.
I was like, okay, I'm laying down, wait until they're ready to start again.
And in the film, there was a film made of the sessions of this, they went out and they're like,
what was that, didn't he get what just happened?
Because it was so heavy, and it was just as heavy for me, and in the spirit of we're here
to make the most great stuff we can, we're not going to open champagne.
It's like, great, what do you want to do next?
It's like, let's not revel in this, but they took it as like,
this guy just doesn't even understand what we're doing.
But I had no idea until I saw the film.
That's funny.
Whoa, that was the reaction.
Yeah, but I think your response is the right risk to take, right?
Because it's the celebration at the end of a, you want to keep, people celebrate too early.
Yes, great.
And now let's use that momentum, we're in the zone.
What's next?
But you yourself in conversation.
So you said that you want to create this, would you use the word intimacy, like is it
to create or just the most real, like there's no cameras, there's no mics?
I would say a place where you're comfortable to be naked, you know,
a place where you can be your most vulnerable without questioning it.
You want to really be able to let your guard down.
And to, you know, if you want to start crying when you're singing, whatever it is, whatever
it is, and it's hard to get to that place.
And again, just the idea of someone, you know, like, hey, that was good.
That could take you right out of that going in, you know, going in.
It's so interesting to think about how to achieve that and still have mics.
Yeah.
That, it's hard, it's harder.
It's harder.
Some of it is space, some of it is raw conversational skill.
Like there's something about certain, well, some of that is also just like, you have that,
as I'm sure you were, there's a legend to Reckubin.
And this is like my now friend, Joe Rogan, there's a legend to him.
And when you show up into Joe Rogan's studio, the legend creates an aura.
And he, I think subconsciously or consciously uses it to like, this is somehow that it's
nervous, nervous, nervous.
And then you realize, oh, he's just, he's just human or something.
I don't, there's a relief.
And then yeah, you could be, you could be yourself.
And that, so that's that nervousness, nervousness, nervousness.
And it's like, oh, it's not that this legend is just a human and it's just, it's normal.
So I don't know how that's done, but it's so interesting to think about how that's,
because I forget recording.
I just enjoy it when it's real.
Like this microphone gives us an excuse to connect on a human level and forget,
and nobody's listening.
It doesn't matter.
I would say I felt maybe in the last 15 minutes, I was less aware of anybody else being in
the room or any equipment here, but it took that long.
That's so interesting.
I hadn't, didn't have that at all.
All I had, I mean, the wind calmed down outside, but there was a wind before.
And there's something about the wind.
Now you can think of it from an audio engineering perspective.
Like, oh, I wonder if the wind creates sound or whatever that you hear.
But I was thinking like, none of this matters.
Like the wind is like nature will be here before us, after us, and all of this will
be dead and forgotten.
That's what the wind was reminding me of.
It's almost like laughing at the fact that we could even consider itself important enough
to put on clothes and talk.
But you love it.
You love talking.
You love the podcast and just that, what did you dive into that?
Like what?
It was not in, it was a strange occurrence.
My friend Malcolm said he wanted to start doing a podcast about music and ask if I would do it
with him.
It's like, I like Malcolm and I thought it would be more like his podcast, which is,
it's not an interview podcast.
I thought it was going to be telling stories in the music world using,
you know, audio stories.
And then it just started being interviews.
Not, not again, it wasn't intentional.
Just started that way and ended up being that.
But I love it.
And I love both because I get to talk to people that I don't know.
But also when I get to talk to people that I know and ask them about things that we would
never talk about ever.
You know, I don't know the origin stories of any of the people, any of my friends.
So to get to hear their perspective, another like relating to the chili peppers,
because their album's coming out now, I interviewed all four members of the band individually.
John, I interviewed John and midway through Anthony came in and then I interviewed Flea
separately and I interviewed Chad separately and it was fascinating.
I know them for 30 years and I learned a tremendous amount because we don't,
you don't ask people about themselves when you're just, you know, workmates.
They're friends.
I do this sometimes.
I'll just set up my microphones and I'll record a thing for private consumption
from with friends or loved ones.
Yeah.
It's fascinating.
It's a good idea.
Because you get to ask, yeah, those ridiculous questions.
First of all, about life, about the future, about the past, about little fears and the
things you miss.
And yeah, there's something that people just reveal, first loves, all those kinds of things.
Your view on love, your view on, and those are things don't come up in regular conversations.
It's so nice that that's something about, see, that's the pushback.
There's something about this microphone or maybe it's just the deliberate nature of sitting down.
Let's just talk.
There is something about the microphone that for me thinks the same with the suit.
I'm going to take this moment seriously.
I've long forgotten that anyone is listening.
And I'm going to try to really listen to another human, first of all.
And to also ask the questions that like are really interesting.
Like I feel like when I talk to normal people out on the street, I'm not allowed to ask anything.
I'm allowed to ask only the more sort of generic things.
I think you can ask anything.
I'm starting to think that.
I think you're allowed to ask anything.
Yeah, I think you're allowed to basically do anything, especially in Texas.
Yeah, I think it's okay to ask people.
And I think people like it when you ask them.
People like to be seen and like to show who they are.
As the wind blows again, do you have advice for young people?
Do you have a fascinating life journey?
Is there advice you can give to people in high school and college
about how to have a life like yours in whatever pursuit in terms of success is such a silly word.
But just find success or maybe happiness in career or just in life in general.
Yeah, the only advice I would have would be to not listen to anyone and to do what you love
and to make things that you love, whatever it is, make your favorite things.
Be the audience.
You be the audience.
Make the thing for you, the audience.
And it doesn't really matter what anyone else thinks.
And if you have to get a job to support yourself so that you couldn't make your art, that's fine.
You can't make art for someone else.
You can't make art with someone else in mind.
I don't believe it.
I don't believe it can be good.
So what does success feel like?
Are you grateful?
Are you proud of the work you've done in the past?
Or is there some engine of constant dissatisfaction, like self-criticism of I could have done better?
No, I'm pleased with the work that we did, excited to keep working.
It's fun.
I don't know what else I would do with myself because I like making things.
It's fun.
I feel like it's my reason to be on the planet, so I just keep doing it.
Whatever ideas are actually coming from elsewhere and are using your mind as a temporary vehicle,
that's their purpose to be on this planet.
Your purpose is to procreate and not die and eat regularly enough such that the brain is alive.
It's a biological purpose.
And anything I can do to keep the channel open to allow what wants to come through to come through,
I'm a willing channel.
It's so interesting because I'm extremely self-critical.
So you don't have that self-criticism, harsh, like this could have been better.
If it could have been better, I would keep working on it.
It's like, if it could be better, it's not done.
It's the best it can be.
I've done everything I can to make it the best it can be.
And I can't do more than that, so there's nothing to be critical of.
I did my very...
If you always give all of yourself and do your best, which you're capable of doing,
I'm not suggesting that you're capable of doing more than you can do.
But whatever it is that you can do, if you've given all of yourself to it,
you've done your best.
Where could there be regret?
There could be, you re-listen to an album, you re-listen to or anything you've created
and think, oh, there's so many interesting ideas missed.
It's fine though, but that was that moment.
It's almost like a diary entry.
Everything we make is a reflection of a moment in time, a window in time.
It could be a day, it could be a year, it could be whatever window you decide that it
is, but if you give it all of yourself and you know, if you're not interested in working it
on it anymore, it's done.
Now, you may decide it's not good enough to share with people and that's fine,
but if it's good enough to share with people, there's no regret looking bad.
That's funny, because think of it as a diary entry.
It's hard to look back at a diary entry and say, you know...
I did it wrong.
I did it wrong.
It's impossible.
Yeah, and even if it's read by a hundred people, a thousand people, a million people,
it's just a diary entry.
Doesn't matter.
Speaking of doesn't matter.
This life is finite.
All of us, even recruitment will be forgotten one day.
Do you think about your mortality tomorrow?
Yes.
Do you think about the finiteness of this thing?
Do you think about mortality, about your mortality?
Does it make any sense to you?
Do you think about death?
Are you afraid of death?
I don't think about it very much.
Are you afraid?
I don't think I'm afraid.
I mean, I don't want to die, but I know that that's in the cards and when it happens, it happens.
Your nature of not wanting to die is kind of like you don't want to go to a shady restaurant.
You'd like to go to a nicer one.
So it's just a preference thing.
Well, I want to keep living because I want to do what I like to do.
Now, who knows?
Whatever comes next, maybe even better.
Maybe we're, I don't know.
I haven't experienced it yet, so who knows?
What do you think happens after we die?
I believe we go on in some capacity.
I don't know what that means.
But in the same way that everything recycles, everything comes around.
I don't know why we would be different.
In some way.
In some way.
I don't know what that way is, and I don't know that it's in the same being,
or in the same grouping of information, whatever that is.
But the thing that makes us, us, that information I imagine goes on.
Yes, it does seem like our world here, at least on earth, has a memory.
And just like history, it kind of rhymes.
It brings back creations of the past and rifts on them,
improvises on top of them.
And in that way, humanity propagates.
I mean, you see it with garbage.
You see the mountains of garbage.
It's like it doesn't really go anywhere.
Even when it breaks up, it disintegrates, but it's never really gone. Same.
Is there anything in this world you're afraid of?
A lot of things.
But not death.
I mean, I don't know.
I don't know.
What are you afraid of?
Death is more of a question mark.
Again, I'm not in any hurry for that to happen.
But it will happen.
And when it does, we get to experience what that is.
Well, the big question mark, what's the meaning of this whole thing?
It's the meaning of life, recubin.
Putting my name on it makes it harder to answer.
It's just a diary entry, like we said.
It's true.
It's true.
And you will get a different answer tomorrow.
Let's see.
What's the meaning of life today?
And later today.
It could be.
So for people who don't know, we were maybe thinking maybe meeting in Austin,
have some barbecue, and now we're in the middle of nowhere in beautiful West Texas.
And this is basically a glorified delivery of barbecue of my favorite barbecue.
Maybe one of your top favorite barbecues to one of my favorite humans.
So we get to eat some barbecue today.
Maybe that's the meaning.
Do you have something bigger than barbecue?
Barbecue is pretty big.
Where's your love for barbecue come from, by the way?
Do you?
Is this?
Well, I was a vegan for 20-something years.
And once I found my way back into eating meat,
I think barbecue is my favorite of any of the things that I didn't eat for so long.
I have to ask you, I almost forgot.
So there's an SNL skit with Will Ferrell that he wrote about Don't Fear the Reaper,
where Bruce Dickinson is the producer.
I always think about you when I see that skit.
I don't know why.
People should definitely watch it.
And he demands more cowbell into the mix.
And the whole band is how I imagine people interact with you.
The whole band is really impressed.
Like, we get to work with the great Bruce Dickinson.
And then it's played by Christopher Walken.
And he says, fellas, fellas, I put on my pants one leg at a time, just like the rest of you.
But once my pants are on, I make gold records.
And then the whole skit continues and he wants to add more and more cowbell.
And Will Ferrell said he wrote that skit because he always heard the song,
Don't Fear the Reaper, and there's a distant cowbell.
It's very light in the mix.
And he's like, I wonder what the story of that cowbell is.
Like, if we just look at that one layer, who's that guy that was in there?
So is that basically exactly how your life is,
is Bruce Dickinson from the cowbell?
I don't know if you've seen that skit.
I don't think it's like that.
It's not.
Okay.
All right.
I'm just going to pretend then.
Rick, this is a huge honor that you sit with me.
What can I say about how incredible a human you are?
You truly are out of this world.
And thank you so much for talking today.
I'm a great fan.
I'm so happy that you agreed to do this with me.
Thanks for listening to this conversation with Rick Rubin.
To support this podcast, please check out our sponsors in the description.
And now, let me leave you with some words from Albert Einstein.
Imagineation is everything.
It is the preview of life's coming attractions.
Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time.