The following is a conversation with Kevin Spacey, a two-time Oscar-winning actor who
has starred in Seven, The Usual Suspects, American Beauty, and House of Cards.
He is one of the greatest actors ever, creating haunting performances of characters who often
embody the dark side of human nature.
Seven years ago, he was cut from House of Cards and canceled by Hollywood and the World,
when Anthony Rapp made an allegation that Kevin Spacey sexually abused him in 1986.
Anthony Rapp then filed a civil lawsuit seeking $40 million.
In this trial, and all civil and criminal trials that followed, Kevin was acquitted.
He has never been found guilty nor liable in a court of law.
In this conversation, Kevin makes clear what he did and what he didn't do.
I also encourage you to listen to Kevin's Dan Wooten and Alison Pearson interviews for
additional details and responses to the allegations.
As an aside, let me say that one of the principles I operate under for this podcast and in life
is that I will talk with everyone, with empathy and with backbone.
For each guest, I hope to explore their life's work, life's story, and what and how they think,
and do so honestly and fully, the good, the bad, and the ugly, the brilliance, and the flaws.
I won't whitewash their sins, but I won't reduce them to a worse possible caricature of their sins either.
The latter is what the mass hysteria of internet mobs too often does,
often rushing to a final judgment before the facts are in.
I will try to do better than that, to respect due process, in service of the truth.
And I hope to have the courage to always think independently, and to speak honestly, from the heart,
even when the eyes of the outrage mob are on me.
Again, my goal is to understand human beings, at their best and at their worst.
And hope is such understanding leads to more compassion and wisdom in the world.
I will make mistakes.
And when I do, I will work hard to improve.
I love you all.
This is the Lex Friedman Podcast.
To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description.
And now, dear friends, here's Kevin Spacey.
You played a serial killer in the movie Seven.
Your performance was one of, if not the greatest portrayal of a murderer on screen ever.
What was your process of becoming him, John Doe, the serial killer?
The truth is, I didn't get the part.
I had been in Los Angeles making a couple of films, Swimming with Sharks and Usual Suspects,
and then I did a film called Outbreak, that Morgan Freeman was in.
And I went in to audition for David Fincher in probably late November of 94.
And I auditioned for this part and didn't get it.
And I went back to New York.
And I think they started shooting, like, December 12th.
And I'm in New York.
I'm back in my wonderful apartment on West 12th Street.
And my mom has come to visit for Christmas.
And it's December 23rd.
And it's, like, 7 o'clock at night.
And my phone rings.
And it's Arnold Kopelson, who's the producer of Seven.
And he's very jovial and he's very friendly.
And he says, how are you doing?
And I said, fine.
And he said, listen, do you remember that film you came in, 4-7?
And I said, yeah, yeah, absolutely.
He goes, well, turns out that we hired an actor and we started shooting.
And then yesterday, David fired him.
And David would like you to get on a plane on Sunday and come to Los Angeles and start shooting on Tuesday.
And I was like, okay, would it be imposing to say, can I read it again?
Because it's been a while now and I'd like to.
So they sent a script over.
I read the script that night.
And I thought about it.
And I had this feeling.
I can't even quite describe it.
But I had this feeling that it would be really good if I didn't take billing in the film.
And the reason I felt that was because I knew that by the time this film would come out, it would be the last one of the three movies that I just shot, the fourth one.
And if any of those films broke through or did well, if it was going to be Brad Pitt, Morgan Freeman, Gwyneth Paltrow, and Kevin Spacey, and you don't show up for the first 25, 30, 40 minutes, people are going to figure out who you're playing.
So people should know that you play the serial killer in the movie, and the serial killer shows up more than halfway through the movie.
Very late in the movie, yeah.
And when you say billing, it's like the posters, the VHS cover, everything.
You're gone.
You're not there.
Not there.
And so New Line Cinema told me to go fuck myself, that they absolutely could use my picture and my image.
And this became a little bit of a, I'd say, 24-hour conversation.
And it was Fincher who said, I actually think this is a really cool idea.
So the compromise was, I'm the first credit at the end of the movie when the credits start.
So I got on a plane on that Sunday, and I flew to Los Angeles, and I went into where they were shooting, and I went into the makeup room, and David Fincher was there.
And we were talking about, what should I do?
How should I look?
And I just had my hair short for Outbreak, because I was playing a military character.
And I just looked at the hairdresser, and I said, do you have a razor?
And Fincher went, are you kidding?
And I said, no.
He goes, if you shave your head, I'll shave mine.
So we both shaved our heads.
And then I started shooting the next day.
So my long-winded answer to your question is that I didn't have that much time to think about how to build that character.
What I think, in the end, Fincher was able to do so brilliantly with such terror was to set the audience up to meet this character.
I think the last scene, the ending scene, and the car ride leading up to it, where it's mostly on you, in conversation with Morgan Freeman and Brad Pitt, it's one of the greatest scenes in film history.
So if people somehow didn't see the movie, there's these five murders that happen that are inspired by five of the seven deadly sins.
And the ending scene is inspired, represents the last two deadly sins.
And there's this calm subtlety about you in your performance that's just terrifying.
Maybe in contrast with Brad Pitt's performance, that's also really strong.
But in the contrast is the terrifying sense that you get in the audience that builds up to the twist at the end, or the surprise at the end, with the famous what's in the box from Brad Pitt.
Right.
That is Brad Pitt's character's wife, her head.
Yeah.
I can really only tell you that while we were shooting that scene in the car, while we were out in the desert, in that place where all those electrical wires were, David just kept saying, less.
Do less.
And I remember he kept saying to me, remember, you're in control.
Like, you're going to win.
And knowing that should allow you to have tremendous confidence.
And I just followed that lead.
And I just think it's the kind of film that so many of the elements that had been at work from the beginning of the movie, in terms of its style, in terms of how he built this terror, in terms of how he built for the audience a sense of this person being one of the scariest people they might ever encounter.
And it really allowed me to be able to not have to do that much, just say the words and mean them.
And I think it also is an example of what makes tragedy so difficult.
I mean, you know, very often tragedy is people operating without enough information.
They don't have all the facts.
Romeo and Juliet.
They don't have all the facts.
They don't know what we know as an audience.
And so in the end, whether Brad Pitt's character ends up shooting John Doe or turning the gun on himself, which was a discussion.
I mean, there were a number of alternative endings that were discussed.
Nothing ends up being tied up in a nice little bow.
It is complicated and shows how nobody wins in the end when you're not operating with all the information.
When you say, say the words and mean them, what does mean them mean?
I've been very fortunate to be directed by Fincher a couple of times.
And he would say to me sometimes, I don't believe a thing that is coming out of your mouth.
Shall we try it again?
And you go, okay, yeah, we can try it again.
And sometimes he'll do take, and then you'll look to see if he has any added genius to hand you.
And he just goes, let's do it again.
And then let's do it again.
And sometimes, I say this in all humility, he's literally trying to beat the acting out of you.
And by continually saying, do it again, do it again, do it again, and not giving you any specifics, he is systematically shredding you of all pretense, of all, you know.
Because, look, very often, you know, actors, we come in on the set, and we've thought about the scene, and we've worked out, you know, I've got this prop, and I'm going to do this thing with a can.
And I'm going to, you know, all these things, all the tea, I'm going to do a thing with a thing.
And David is the kind of director where he just wants you to stop adding all that crap and just say the words and say them quickly and mean them.
And it takes a while to get to that place.
I'll tell you a story.
This is a story I just love because it's in exactly the same wheelhouse.
So Jack Lemmon's first movie was a film called It Should Happen to You, and it was directed by George Cukor.
And Jack tells this story, and it was just an incredibly charming story to hear Jack tell.
He said, so I'm doing this picture, and let me tell you, this is a terrific part for me, and I'm doing a scene.
It's on my first day.
It's my first day, and it's a terrific scene.
And he goes, we do the first take, and George Cukor comes up to me, and he says, Jack, I said, yeah.
He said, could you do, let's do another one, but just do a little less in this one.
And Jack said, a little less, a little less than what I just did.
He said, yeah, just a little less.
So he goes, we do another take.
And I think, boy, that was it.
I mean, let's just go home.
And Cukor walked up to him and said, Jack, I'd like to do another one.
This time, just a little bit less.
And Jack said, less than what I just did now?
He said, yeah, just a little bit less.
He goes, oh, okay.
So he did another take, and Cukor came up, and he said, Jack, just a little bit less.
And Jack said, a little less than what I just did?
He said, yes.
He goes, well, if I do any less, I'm not going to be acting.
And Cukor said, exactly, Jack, exactly.
I mean, I guess what you're saying is it's extremely difficult to get to the bottom of a little less.
Because the power, if we just stick even on seven, of your performance is in the tiniest of subtleties.
Like when you say, oh, you didn't know, and you turn your head a little bit.
And a little bit like the little bit, maybe a glimmer of a smile appears in your face.
That's subtlety.
That's less.
That's hard to get to, I suppose.
Yeah.
And also because I so well remember, I think, the work that Brad did, and also Morgan did in that scene.
But the work that Brad had to do, where he had to go.
I remember rehearsing with him as we were all staying at this little hotel nearby that location.
And we rehearsed the night before we started shooting that sequence.
And I just, I mean, it was just incredible to see the levels of emotions he had to go through.
And then the decision of what do I do?
Because if I do what he wants me to do, then he wins.
But if I don't do it, then I'm, what kind of a man, husband am I?
I just thought he did really incredible work.
So it was also not easy to not react to the power of what he was throwing at me.
I just thought it was an extraordinary, a really extraordinary scene.
So what's it like being in that scene?
So it's you, Brad Pitt, Morgan Freeman.
And Brad Pitt is going over the top, just having a mental breakdown and is weighing these extremely difficult moral choices, as you're saying.
But he's like screaming and in pain and tormented while you're very subtly smiling.
In terms of the writing and in terms of what the characters had to do, it was an incredible culmination of how this character could manipulate in the way that he did and in the end succeed.
You mentioned Fincher likes to do a lot of takes.
That's the famous thing about David Fincher.
So what are the pros and cons of that?
I think I read that he does some crazy amount.
He averages 25 to 65 takes, and most directors do less than 10.
Sometimes it's timing.
Sometimes it's literally he has a stopwatch, and he's timing how long a scene is taking.
And then he'll say, you need to take a minute off this scene.
Like a minute?
Yeah, a minute off this scene.
I want it to move like this.
So let's pick it up.
Let's pick up the pace.
Let's see if we can take a minute off.
Why the speed?
Why say it fast is the important thing for him, you think?
I think because Fincher hates indulgence.
And he wants people to talk the way they do in life, which is, you know, we don't take big dramatic pauses.
Yeah, right.
You know, before we speak, we speak.
We say what we want.
We, you know.
And I guess actors like the dramatic pauses and the indulge in the dramatic pauses.
Well, they didn't always like the dramatic pauses.
I mean, look, you go back, any student of acting, you go back to the 30s and the 40s, 50s, the speed at which actors spoke.
Not just in the comedies, which, of course, you know, you look at any Preston Sturges movie and it's incredible how fast people are talking and how funny things are when they happen that fast.
But then, you know, acting styles changed.
We got into a different kind of thing in the late 50s and 60s.
And, you know, a lot of actors are feeling it, which is, I'm not saying it's a bad thing.
It's just that if you want to keep an audience engaged, as Fincher does, and I believe successfully does in all of his work, pace, timing, movement, clarity, speed are admirable to achieve.
And all of that, he wants the actor to be as natural as possible, to strip away all the bullshit of acting and become human.
Look, I've been lucky with other directors.
Sam Mendes is similar.
I remember when I walked in to maybe the first rehearsal for Richard III that we were doing, I had brought with me a canopy of ailments that my Richard was going to suffer from.
And Sam, you know, eventually whittled it down to like three, like maybe your arm and maybe your thing and maybe your leg, but let's get rid of the other 10 things that you brought into the room because I was, you know, I was so excited to, you know, capture this character.
So, you know, very often, Trevor Nunn is this way, a lot of wonderful directors I've worked with, they're really good at helping you trim and edit.
David Fincher said about you, he's talking in general, I think, but also specifically in the moment of House of Cards, said that you have exceptional skill both as an actor and as a performer, which he says are different things.
So he defines the former as dramatization of a text and the latter as the seduction of an audience.
Do you see wisdom in that distinction?
And what does it take to do both, the dramatization of a text and the seduction of an audience?
Those are two very interesting descriptions.
When I think, I guess when I think performer, I tend to think entertaining, I tend to think, I tend to think comedy, I tend to think winning over an audience.
I tend to think that there's something about that quality of wanting to have people enjoy themselves.
And when you saddle that against what maybe he means as an actor, which is more dramatic or more text-driven, more...
Look, I've always believed that my job, not every actor feels this way, but my job, the way that I've looked at it, is that my job is to serve the writing.
And that if I serve the writing, I will, in a sense, serve myself, because I'll be in the right world, I'll be in the right context, I'll be in the right style.
I'll have embraced what a director's, you know, it's not my painting, it's someone else's painting.
I'm a series of colors in someone else's painting.
And the barometer for me has always been that when people stop me and talk to me about a character I've played and reference their name as if they actually exist, that's when I feel like I've gotten close to doing my job.
Yeah, one of the challenges for me in this conversation is remembering that your name is Kevin, not Frank or John or any of these characters, because they live deeply in the psyche.
To me, that's the greatest compliment for me as an actor.
I love being able to go.
I mean, when I think about performers who inspire me, and I remember when I was young and I was introduced to Spencer Tracy, Henry Fonda, Catherine Hepburn, I just, I believed who they were.
I knew nothing about them.
They were just these extraordinary characters doing this extraordinary stuff.
And then I think more recently contemporary, when I think of the work that Philip Seymour Hoffman did, and Heath Ledger, and people that, when I think about what they could be doing, what they could do, what they would have done, had they stayed with us.
I'm so excited when I go into a cinema or I go into a play, and I completely am taken to some place that I believe exists and characters that become real.
And those characters become like lifelong companions.
Like for me, they travel with you, and even if it's the darkest aspects of human nature, they're always there.
It's almost like, I feel like I almost met them and gotten to know them and gotten to become like friends with them almost.
Hannibal Lecter, whether it's the, or Forrest Gump.
I mean, I've, I feel like I'm like best friends with Forrest Gump.
I know the guy.
And I guess he's played by some guy named Tom, but like Forrest Gump is the guy I'm friends with.
And I think everybody feels like that when they're in the audience with great characters.
They just kind of, they become part of you in some, some way, the, the, the good, the bad, and the ugly of them.
One of the things that I, that I feel that I try to do in my work is when I read something for the first time,
when I read a script or a play, and I am absolutely devastated by it.
It is, it is the most extraordinary, the most beautiful, the most life-affirming, or terrifying.
It's then a process, weirdly, of working backwards.
Because I want to work in such a way that that's the experience I give to the audience when they first see it.
That they have the experience I had when I read it.
I remember that there's been times in the creative process when something was pointed out to me, or something was,
I remember I was doing a play, and I was having this really tough time with one of the last scenes in the play.
And I just couldn't figure it out.
I was in rehearsal, and although we had a director in that play, I called another, a friend of mine who was also director,
and I had him come over, and I said, look, this scene, I'm just having the toughest, I cannot seem to crack this scene.
And so we read it through a couple of times.
And then this wonderful director named John Swanbeck, who would eventually direct me in a film called The Big Kahuna,
but this is before that, he said to me the most incredible thing.
He just said, all right, what's the last line you have in this scene before you fall over and fall asleep?
And I said, the last line is, that last drink, the old KO.
And he went, okay, I want you to think about what that line actually means, and then work backwards.
And so he left, and I sort of was left with this, what?
Like, what does that mean?
How am I supposed to?
And then, like, a couple of days went by, a couple of days went by, and I thought, okay, so I said, what does that line actually mean?
Well, that last drink, the old KO.
KO is knockout, which is a boxing term.
It's the only boxing term the writer uses in the play.
And then I went back, and I realized my friend was so smart and so incredible to have, you know, said, ask a question you haven't thought of asking yet.
I realized that the playwright wrote the last round, the eighth round between these two brothers, and it was a fight, physical as well as emotional.
And when I brought that into the rehearsal room to the director who was doing that play, he liked that idea, and we staged that scene as if it was the eighth round, although the audience wouldn't have known that.
But just what I loved about that was that somebody said to me, ask yourself a question you haven't asked yourself yet.
What does that line mean?
And then work backwards.
What is that, like a catalyst for thinking deeply about what is magical about this play, this story, this narrative?
That's what that is, like thinking backwards, that's what that does?
Yeah, but also because it's just, it's this incredible, why didn't I think to ask that question myself?
That's what you have directors for, that's what you have, you know, so many places where ideas can come from.
But that just illustrates that even though in my brain I go, I always like to work backwards, I missed it in that one, and I'm very grateful to my friend for having pushed me into being able to realize what that meant.
To ask the interesting question, I like the poetry and the humility of, I'm just a series of colors in someone else's painting.
That was a good line.
That said, you've talked about improvisation, you said that it's all about the ability to do it again and again and again and yet never make it the same.
And you also just said that you're trying to stay true to the text.
So where's the room for the improvisation, that it's never the same?
Well, there's two slightly different contexts, I think.
One is, in the rehearsal room, improvisation can be a wonderful device.
I mean, Sam Mendes, for example, will start, he'll start a scene and he does this wonderful thing.
He brings rugs and he brings chairs and sofas in and he says, well, let's put two chairs here and here.
You guys, let's start in these chairs far apart from each other.
Let's see what happens with the scene if you're that far apart.
And so we'll do the scene that way.
And then he goes, okay, let's bring a rug in and let's bring these chairs much closer.
And let's see what happens if the space, if the space between you is.
And so then you try it that way.
And then, you know, it's a little harder in Shakespeare to improv, but in any situation where you want to try and see where, where could a scene go?
Where would the scene go if I didn't make that choice?
Where would the scene go if I made this choice?
Where would the scene go if I didn't say that or I said something else?
So that's how improv can be a valuable process to learn about limits and boundaries and what's going on with a character that somehow you discover in trying something that isn't on the page.
Then there's the different thing, which is the trying to make it fresh and trying to make it new.
And that is really a reference to theater.
I'll put it to you this way.
Anybody loves sports, right?
So you go and you watch on a pitch, you watch on a tennis game, you watch basketball, you watch football.
Yeah, the rules are the same, but it's a different game every time you're out on that court or on that field.
So it's no different in theater.
Yes, it's the same lines.
Maybe even blocking is similar.
But what's different is attack, intention, how you are growing in a role and watching your fellow actors grow in theirs and how every night it's a new audience and they're reacting differently.
And you literally, where you can go from week one of performances in a play to week 12 is extraordinary.
And the difference between theater and film is that no matter how good someone might think you are in a movie, you'll never be any better.
It's frozen.
Whereas I can be better tomorrow night than I was tonight.
I can be better in a week than I was tonight.
It is a living, breathing, shifting, changing, growing thing every single day.
But also in theater, there's no safety net.
If you fuck it up, everybody gets to see you do that.
And if you start giggling on stage, everyone gets to see you do that too, which I am very guilty of.
I mean, there is something of a seduction of an audience in theater even more intense than there is when you're talking about film.
I got a chance to watch the documentary Now in the Wings on a World Stage, which is behind the scenes of, you mentioned,
you teaming up with Sam Mendes in 2011 to stage Richard III, a play by William Shakespeare.
I was also surprised to learn you haven't really done much Shakespeare, or at least you said that in the movie.
But there's a lot of interesting behind the scenes stuff there.
First of all, the camaraderie of everybody, how the bond theater creates, especially when you're traveling.
But another interesting thing, you mentioned with the chairs of Sam Mendes, trying different stuff.
It seemed like everybody was really open to trying stuff, embarrassing themselves, taking risks, all of that.
I suppose that's part of acting in general, but theater especially.
Just take risks.
It's okay to embarrass the shit out of yourself, including the director.
And it's also because you become a family.
You know, it's unlike a movie where, you know, I might have a scene with so-and-so on this day,
and then another scene with them in a week and a half, and then that's the only scenes we have in the whole movie together.
Every single day, when you show up in the rehearsal room, it's the whole company.
You're all up for it every day.
You're learning, you're growing, you're trying, and there is an incredible trust that happens.
And I was, of course, fortunate that some of the things I learned and observed about being a part of that family,
being included in that family, and being a part of creating that family,
I was able to observe from people like Jack Lemmon, who led many companies that I was fortunate to work in and be a part of.
There's also a sad moment where, at the end, everybody is really sad to say goodbye, because you do form a family, and then it's over.
I guess somebody said that that's just part of theater.
It's like, I mean, there's a kind of assumed goodbye, and that this is it.
Yeah, and also, there are some times when, like six months later, I'll wake up in the middle of the night, and I'll go,
that's how to play that scene.
Yeah.
Oh, God, I just finally figured it out.
So maybe you could speak a little bit more to that.
What's the difference between film acting and live theater acting?
I don't really think there is any.
I think there's just, you eventually learn about yourself on film.
You know, when I first did, like, my first episode of The Equalizer, you know, it's just horrible.
It's just so bad.
But I didn't know about myself.
I didn't, so slowly you begin to learn about yourself.
But I think good acting is good acting, and I think that, you know, if a camera's right here,
you know that your front row is also your back row.
You just don't have to do so much.
There is, in theater, a particular kind of energy, almost like an athlete, that you have to have vocally
to be able to get up seven performances a week and never lose your voice and always be there
and always be alive and always be doing the best work you can,
that you just don't require in film.
You know, you don't have to have the same,
it just doesn't require the same kind of stamina that doing a play does.
It just feels like, also in theater, you have to become the character more intensely
because you can't take a break.
You can't take a bathroom break.
You're, like, on stage.
There's no, this is you.
Yeah, but you have no idea what's going on on stage with the actors.
I mean, I have literally laughed through speeches that I had to give
because my fellow actors were putting carrots up their nose or broccoli in their ears
or doing whatever they were doing to make me laugh.
So they're just having fun.
They're having the time of their life.
And by the way, Judi Dench is the worst giggler of all.
Yeah.
I mean, they had to bring the curtain down on her and Maggie Smith
because they were laughing so hard they could not continue the play.
So even when you're doing, like, a dramatic monologue still,
they're still fucking with you.
There's stuff.
Okay.
That's great.
That's good to know.
You also said, interesting line, that improvisation helps you...
learn about the character.
Can you explain that?
So, like, through maybe playing with the different ways of saying the words
or the different ways to bring the words to life,
you get to learn about yourself, about the character you're playing.
It can be helpful.
But improv is...
I'm such a big believer in the writing and in serving the writing
and doing the words the writer wrote.
That improv, for me, unless you're just doing, like, comedy and, you know,
like, I mean, I love improv and comedy.
It's brilliant.
So much fun to watch people just come up with something right there.
But, you know, that's where you're looking for laughs
and you're specifically in a little scene that's being created.
But I think improv has had value.
But I have not experienced it as much in doing plays
as I have sometimes in doing film where you'll start off rehearsing
and a director may say,
let's just go off book and see what happens.
And I've had moments in film where someone went off book
and it was terrifying.
There was a scene I had in Glengarry Glen Ross
where the character I play has fucked something up,
has just screwed something up,
and Pacino is livid.
And so we had this scene where Al is walking like this
and the camera is moving with him
and he is shooing me a new asshole.
And in the middle of the take,
Al starts talking about me.
Oh, Kevin,
you don't think we know how you got this job?
You don't think we know whose dick you've been sucking on
to get this part in this movie?
And I'm now,
I'm literally like,
I don't know what the hell is happening,
but I'm reacting.
We got to the end of that take.
Al walked up to me and he went,
oh,
that was so good.
Oh my God,
that was so good.
Just so you know,
the sound,
I asked them not to record.
So you have no dialogue.
So it's just me.
Oh,
that was so good.
You look,
you look like a car wreck.
Yeah.
And I was like,
yeah.
And it was actually
an incredibly generous thing
that he gave me
so that I would react.
Oh,
wow.
Did they use that shot?
Because you were in shock.
It was my closeup.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And yeah,
that's the take.
That was an intense interaction.
I mean,
what was it like
if we can just linger on that,
just that intense scene
with Al Pacino?
Well,
he's the reason I got the movie.
A lot of people might think
because Jack was in the film
that he had something to do with it.
But actually,
I was doing a play called
Lost in Yonkers on Broadway.
And we had the same dresser
who worked with him,
a girl named Laura.
It was wonderful.
Laura Beattie.
And she told Al
that he should come
and see this play
because she wanted
to see me in this play.
I was playing this gangster.
It was a fun,
fun,
fun part.
So I didn't know Pacino
came on some night
and saw this play.
And then like three days later,
I got a call
to come in and audition
for this
Glengarry Glen Ross,
which of course I knew
is a play,
David Mambit's play.
And then
I auditioned.
Jamie Foley was the director
who would eventually
direct a bunch of
House of Cards.
Wonderful,
wonderful guy.
And I got the part.
Well,
I didn't quite get the part.
They were going to bring together
the actors
that they thought
they were going to give
the parts to
on a Saturday
at Al's office.
And they asked me
if I would come
and do a read-through.
And I said,
who's going to be there?
And they said,
well,
so-and-so-and-so-and-so-and-so-and-so.
And then Jack Lemmon
is flying in.
And I said,
don't tell Mr. Lemmon
that I'm doing the read-through.
Is that possible?
And they were like,
sure.
So I'll never forget this.
Jack was
sitting in a chair
in Pacino's office
doing the
New York Times
crossword puzzle
as he did every day.
And I walked in the door
and he went,
oh,
Jesus Christ.
Is it possible
you could get a job
without me?
Jesus Christ.
I'm so tired
of holding up
your end of it.
Oh,
my God.
Jesus Christ.
So that's,
I got the job
job
because of Pacino.
And it,
you know,
I was,
it was really
one of the first
major roles
that I ever had
in a film.
And,
you know,
to be working
with that group.
Yeah,
that's like
one of the greatest
ensemble
casts ever.
we got Al Pacino,
Jack Lemmon,
Alec Baldwin,
Alan Arkin,
Ed Harris,
you,
Jonathan Price.
It's just incredible.
And I would,
I have to say,
I mean,
maybe you can comment,
you've,
you've,
you've talked about
how much of a mentor
and a friend
Jack Lemmon has been.
That's one of his
greatest performances
ever.
Ever.
You have a scene
at the end of the movie
with him
that was really powerful.
like firing on all cylinders.
You're
playing
disdain
to perfection
and he's playing
desperation
to perfection.
What a scene.
What was that like?
Just,
like,
at the top of your game
the two of you.
Well,
by that time
we had done
Long Day's Journey Tonight
in the theater.
We'd done a mini-series
called The Murder of Mary Fagan
on NBC.
We'd done a film
called Dad
that Gary David Goldberg
directed.
with Ted Danson.
So this was the fourth
time we were working together
and we knew each other.
We'd become,
he'd become my father figure.
And,
and I don't know
if you know
that I originally met
Jack Lemmon
when I was very,
very young.
He was doing a production
at the Mark Taper Forum
of a Sean O'Casey play
called Juno and the Peacock
with Walter Matthau
and Maureen Stapleton.
And on a Saturday
in December of 1974
my junior high school
drama class
went to a workshop.
It was called
How to Audition.
And we did this workshop.
Many schools
in Southern California
were part of this
drama teachers association.
So we got these
incredible experiences
of being able to go
see professional productions
and be involved
in these workshops
or festivals.
so I had to get up
and do a monologue
in front of Mr. Lemmon
when I was 13 years old.
And he walked up to me
at the end of that
and he put his hand
on my shoulder
and he said
that was such a terrific.
He said no,
everything I've been
talking about
you just did.
What's your name?
I said Kevin.
He said let me tell you something.
When you get finished
with high school
as I'm sure you're going
to go on and do theater
you should go to New York
and you should study
to be an actor
because this is what
you're meant to do
with your life.
And he was like an idol.
And 12 years later
I read in the New York Times
that he was coming
to Broadway
to do this production
of A Long Day's Journey
tonight a year
and some months
after I read this article
and I was like
I'm going to play Jamie
in that production.
And I then
with a lot of opposition
because the cast
and director
didn't want to see me
they said that
the director
Jonathan Miller
wanted
movie actors
to play
the two sons
and ultimately
I
I
I found out
that Jonathan Miller
the director
was coming to New York
to do a series
of lectures
at Alice Tully Hall
and I
went to
try to figure out
how I could maybe
meet him
and
I was sitting
in that theater
listening to this
incredible lecture
he was doing
and sitting
next to me
was an elderly
woman
I mean elderly
80 something
and
she was asleep
but sticking out
of her handbag
which was
on the floor
was a
invitation
to a cocktail
reception
in honor
of Dr. Jonathan Miller
and so
I
I
thought
you know
she's tired
she's probably
going to go home
so I
I
I
took that
and
walked into
this cocktail
reception
and
ultimately
went over
to Dr. Miller
who was
incredibly kind
and said
sit down
I'm always
very curious
what brings
young people
to my lectures
and I
said to him
Eugene O'Neill
brought me here
and he was like
what
I've always
wanted to meet him
where is he
and
I told him
that I'd been
trying for
seven months
to get
an audition
for Long Day's
Journey
and that his
American cast
directors
were telling
my agents
that he
wanted big
American movie
stars
and at that
moment
he turned
and he saw
one of those
casting directors
who was there
that night
because I knew
he was going
to be in
New York
starting auditions
that week
and she
was staring
daggers
at me
and he
just got
it
and he
said
someone
have a pen
and he
took a
little paper
and started
writing
he said
listen Kevin
there are
many situations
in which
casting directors
have a lot
of say
and a lot
of power
and a lot
of leverage
and then there
are other
situations
where they
just take
directors
messages
and on
this one
they're
taking my
messages
this is
where I'm
staying
make sure
you people
get to
me
we start
auditions
on Thursday
and on
Thursday
I had
an opportunity
to come
in and
audition
for this
play
that I'd
been working
on and
preparing
and
at the
end of
it
I did
four scenes
at the
end of
it
he said
to me
that unless
someone else
came in
and blew
him against
the wall
like I had
just done
as far as
he was
concerned
I pretty
much had
the part
but I
couldn't
tell my
agents
that yet
because I
had to
come back
and read
with Mr.
Lemon
and so
three months
later
in August
of 1985
I found
myself in
a room
with Jack
Lemon
again
at 890
Broadway
which is
where they
rehearsed a lot
of Broadway
plays
and we
did four
scenes together
and I
was toppling
over him
I was
pushing him
I was
I was
relentless
and I'll
never forget
at the end
of that
Lemon
came over
to me
he put
his hand
on my
shoulder
and he
said
that was
your touch
it
terrific
I never
thought
we'd find
the rotten
kid
but he's
it
Jesus
Christ
what the
hell
was
that
and I
ended up
spending
the next
year
of my
life
with that
man
so it
turns out
he was
right
yeah
this world
works in
mysterious
ways
it also
speaks to
the fact
of the
power
of somebody
you look
up to
giving
words of
encouragement
because those
can just
reverberate
through your
whole life
and just
like
make the
path
clear
I've
always
we used
to
we used
to joke
that if
every contract
came with a
Jack Lemmon
clause it would
be a more
beautiful world
beautifully said
Jack Lemmon is one of the
greatest actors ever
what do you think
makes him so damn good
wow
I think he
I think he
truly
set out
in his
life
to accomplish
what his
father said to
him on his
deathbed
his father
was dying
his father
was by the way
called the
donut king
in Boston
and
not in the
entertainment business
at all
he literally
owned a
donut company
and
when he was
passing away
Jack said
the last thing
my father
said to me
was
go out there
and spread
a little
sunshine
and I
truly think
that's what
Jack
loved
to do
I remember
this
and I
don't know
if this
will answer
your question
but I
think it's
revealing
about
what he's
able to
do
and what
he was
able to
do
and how
that
ultimately
influenced
what I
was able
to do
Sam
Endes
had never
directed a
film before
American Beauty
and
so what
he did
was he
took the
best elements
of theater
and applied
them to
the process
so we
rehearsed it
like a play
in a
soundstage
where everything
was laid
out like
it would
be in a
play and
this couch
will be
here
and he'd
sent me a
couple of
tapes
he'd sent
me two
cassette
tapes
one that
he'd like
to call
pre-Lester
before he
begins to
move in a
direction and
then post-Lester
and they just
were different
songs
and then he
said to me
one day
and I
always thought
this was
brilliant of
Sam to
use lemon
knowing what
lemon meant
to me
he said
when was the
last time you
watched The
Apartment
and I said
I don't know
I mean I
love that movie
so much
he goes I
want you to
watch it
again and
then let's
talk
so I went
and I watched
the movie
again
and we sat
down and
Sam said
what lemon
does in
that film
is incredible
because there
is never a
moment in
the movie
where we
see him
change
he just
evolves
and he
becomes
the man
he becomes
because of
the experiences
that he
has
through the
course of
the film
but there's
this remarkable
consistency
in who he
becomes
and that's
what I need
you to do
as Lester
I don't
want the
audience to
ever see
him change
I want him
to evolve
and so we
did some
I mean first
of all it was
just a great
direction
and then second
of all we did
some things that
people don't
know we did
to aid that
gradual
shift
of that man's
character
first of all
I had to
be in the
best shape
from the
beginning of
the movie
because we
didn't shoot
it in
sequence
so I
was in
this crazy
shape
I had this
wonderful
trainer named
Mike Torsha
who just
was incredible
but so what
we did was
in order to
then show
this gradual
shift was
I had three
different hair
pieces
I had three
different kinds
of costumes
of different
colors and
sizes
and I
had
different
makeup
so in
the beginning
I was
wearing a
kind of
drab
dull
slightly
you know
uninspired
hair piece
and my
makeup was
kind of
gray
and boring
and I was
a little bit
there were
times when I
was like too
much like
this and Sam
would go
Kevin you
look like
Walter Matthau
would you
please stand
up a little
bit we're
sort of
midway
through
at this
point
and
then
at a
certain
point
the wig
changed
and it
had
little
highlights
in it
a little
more
color
a little
more
the makeup
became a
little
the suits
got a little
tighter
and then
finally
a third
wig that
was golden
highlights
and sunshine
and you
know rosy
cheeks
and tight
fit
and these
are what
we call
theatrical
tricks
you know
this is
this is
how you
an audience
doesn't even
know it's
happening
but it
is this
gradual
and I
just always
felt that
that was
such a
brilliant
way
because he
knew what
I felt
about Jack
and when
you watch
the apartment
it is
extraordinary
that he
doesn't ever
change
he just
so I'm
I'm
and in
fact I
I thanked
Jack
when I
won the
Oscar
and
I
did my
thank you
speech
and I
walked off
stage
and I
remember I
had to
sit down
for a
moment
because I
didn't want
to go to
the press
room because
I wanted
to see if
Sam was
going to
win
and so
I was
waiting
and my
phone rang
and it
was
Lemon
he said
you're a
son of a
bitch
I said
what
he goes
first of
all
congratulations
and thanks
for thanking
me
because you
know
God
knows
you
couldn't
have
done
it
without
me
he said
second
of all
he said
you know
how long
it took
me to
win
from
supporting
actor
I
won it
for
Mr.
Roberts
and it
took
me
like
10
12
years
to win
Oscar
you did
it
in
four
you
son
of a
bitch
yeah
the
apartment
was
I mean
it's
widely
considered
one of
the
greatest
movies
ever
people
sometimes
refer to
it as
a comedy
which is
an
interesting
kind of
classification
I suppose
that's a
lesson about
comedy
that the
best
comedy is
the one
that's
basically
a tragedy
well
I mean
some
people
think
Clockwork
Orange
is a
comedy
and I'm
not saying
there aren't
some good
laughs
in
Clockwork
Orange
but
yeah
you know
it's
I mean
yeah
what's
that line
between
comedy
and tragedy
for you
well
if it's
a line
it's a
line I
cross
all the
time
because
I've
tried
always
to
find
the
humor
unexpected
sometimes
maybe
inappropriate
sometimes
maybe
shocking
but
I've
tried
I
think
almost
every
dramatic
role
I've
had
to
have
a
sense
of
humor
and
to
be
able
to
bring
that
along
with
everything
else
that is
serious
because
frankly
that's
how we
deal with
stuff
in life
you know
I think
Sam
Mendes
actually
said
in the
now
documentary
something
like
with
great
theater
with
great
stories
you
find
humor
on the
journey
to the
heart
of
darkness
something
like
this
very
poetic
I'm
sorry
I can't
be that
poetic
I'm
very
sorry
but
it's
true
I
mean
the
people
I've
interacted
in this
world
have
been
to
a
war
zone
and
the
ones
who
have
lost
the
most
and
have
suffered
the
most
are
usually
the
ones
who
are
able
to
make
jokes
the
quickest
and
the
jokes
are
often
dark
and
absurd
and
cross
every
single
line
no
political
correctness
all
of
that
sure
well
I
mean
it's
like
the
great
Mary Tyler
Moore
show
where
they
can't
stop
giggling
at
the
clown's
funeral
I
mean
it's
it's
just
one
of
the
great
episodes
ever
you know
giggling
at a
funeral
is as
bad
as
farting
at a
funeral
and
you know
I'm
I'm
sure
that
there's
some
people
who've
done
both
oh
man
so
you
mentioned
American
Beauty
and
the
idea
of
not
changing
but
evolving
that's
really
interesting
because
that movie
is
about
like
finding
yourself
it's
a
philosophically
profound
movie
it's
about
various
characters
in their
own
ways
finding
their
own
identity
in a
world
where
maybe
a
system
a
materialistic
system
that wants
you to be
like
everyone
else
and so
I mean
Lester
really
transforms
himself
throughout
the movie
and you're
saying
the
challenge
there
is
to
still
be
the
same
human
being
fundamentally
yeah
and I
also
think
that
the
film
was
powerful
because
you had
three
very
honest
and genuine
portrayal
of young
people
and
then you
had Lester
behaving like
a young
person
doing things
that were
unexpected
and
and
I
think
that
the
honesty
with which
it
dealt
with
those
issues
that
those
teenagers
were
going
through
and
the
honesty
with
which
it
dealt
with
what
Lester
was
going
through
I
think
are
some
of the
reasons
why
the
film
had
the
response
that
it
did
from
so
many
people
I
mean
I
used
to
get
stopped
and
someone
would
say
to
me
when
I
first
saw
American
Beauty
I
was
married
and
the
second
time
I
saw
it
I
wasn't
I
was
like
well
we
weren't
trying
to
increase
the
divorce
rate
it
wasn't
our
intention
but
it
is
interesting
how
so
many
people
have
those
kinds
of
crazy
fantasies
and
what
I
admired
so
much
about
who
Lester
was
as
a
person
why
I
wanted
to
play
him
is
because
in
the
end
he
makes
the
right
decision
I
think
a lot
of
people
live
lives
of
quiet
desperation
in
a
in a
job
they don't
like
in a
marriage
they're
unhappy
in
and
to
see
somebody
living
that
life
and
then
saying
fuck
it
in
every
way
possible
and
not
just
in
a
cynical
way
but
in
a
way
that
opens
them
opens
Lester
up
to
see
the
beauty
in
the
world
that's
you know
the beauty
in
American
beauty
it's
well
and
you know
you may
have to
blackmail
your boss
to get
there
but
you
know
and
in
that
there's
a bunch
of
humor
also
in
the
in
the
anger
in
the
in
the
absurdity
of
sort
of
taking
a stand
and
I read
somewhere
that
the
scene
the
dinner
scene
which
is
kind
of
play
like
where
Lester
slams
the
plate
against
the
wall
was
improvised
by
you
the
slamming
of the
plate
against
the
wall
no
no
absolutely
absolutely
absolutely
absolutely
written
and
and
directed
yeah
can't take
credit for
that
the
plate
okay
well
that was
a
that was
a
genius
interaction
there
there's
something
about
the
dinner
table
and
losing
your
shit
at
the
dinner
table
having
a
fight
and
losing
your
shit
at
the
dinner
table
where
else
like
Yellowstone
was another
situation
where
it's a
family
at the
dinner
table
and then
one of
them
says
fuck
it
I'm
not
eating
this
anymore
and I'm
going
to
create
a
scene
right
it's
a
beautiful
kind
of
environment
for
dramatic
scenes
or
Nicholson
in
The
Shining
there's
some
family
scenes
gone
awry
in
that
movie
the
contrast
between
you
and
Annette
Benning
in
that
scene
creates
the
genius
of
that
scene
so
how
much
of
acting
is
the
dance
between
two
actors
well
with
Annette
I
just
adored
working
with
her
and
we
were
the
two
actors
that
Sam
wanted
from
the
very
beginning
much
against
the
will
of
the
higher
ups
who
wanted
other
actors
to
play
those
roles
but
I've
known
Annette
since
we
did a
screen
test
together
for
Milos
Forman
for a
film
he
did
of
the
Les
liaisons
dangerous
movie
it was
a
different
film
from
that
one
but
it
was
the
same
story
and
I've
always
thought
she
is
just
remarkable
and
I
think
that
the
work
she
did
in
that
film
the
relationship
that
we
were
able
to
build
for
me
the
saddest
part
of
that
success
was
that
she
didn't
win
the
Oscar
and
I
felt
she
should
have
what
what
kind
of
interesting
direction
did
you
get
from
Sam
Mendes
in
how
you
approach
playing
Lester
in
different
how
to
take
on
the
different
scenes
there's
a lot
of
brilliant
scenes
in
that
movie
well
I'll
share
with
you
a
story
that
most
people
don't
know
which
is
our
first
two
days
of
shooting
were
in
Smiley's
the
place
where
I
get
a
job
in
a
fast
food
place
yeah
it's
a
burger
joint
yeah
and
I
guess
it
was
like
maybe
the
third
day
or
the
fourth
day
of
shooting
we'd
now
done
that
and
I
said
to
Sam
so
how
how
are
the
dailies
you
know
how
do
they
look
he
goes
which
ones
I
said
well
the
first
smileys
he
goes
oh
um
they're
shit
and I
went
yeah
no
how
were
they
he
goes
no
they're
shit
I
hate
them
I
hate
everything
about
them
I
hate
the
costumes
I
hate
the
location
I
hate
that
you're
inside
I
hate
the
way
you
acted
I
hate
everything
but
the
script
so
I've
gone
back
to
the
studio
and
asked
them
if
we
can
reshoot
the
first
two
days
and
it
was
like
Sam
this
is your
very
first
movie
you're
going
back
to
Steven
Spielberg
and
saying
I
need
to
reshoot
the
first
two
days
and
that's
exactly
what
we
did
a
couple
of
weeks
later
they
decided
that
it
was
now
a
drive
through
because
Annette
and
Peter
Galler
used
to
come
into
the
place
and
ordered
from
the
counter
now
Sam
decided
it
has
to
be
a
drive
through
you
have
to
be
in
the
window
of
the
drive
through
change
the
costumes
and
we
reshot
those
first
two
days
and
Sam
said
it
was
actually
a
moment
of
incredible
confidence
because
he said
the
worst
thing
that
could
possibly
have
happened
happened
in my
first
two
days
and
after
that
I
was
like
I
know
what
I'm
doing
and
I
knew
I
had
to
reshoot
it
and
it
was
absolutely
right
and
I
guess
that's
what
a
great
director
must
do
is
have
the
guts
in
that's
a
pretty
gutsy
move
two
other
little
things
to
share
with
you
about
Sam
about
the
way
he
is
you
wouldn't
know
it
but
the
original
script
opened
and
closed
with
a
trial
Ricky
was
accused
of
Lester's
murder
and
the
movie
was
bookended
by
this
trial
very
different
movie
which
they
shot
the
entire
trial
for
weeks
and
I
used
to
fly
in
my
dreams
you
know
those
opening
shots
over
the
neighborhood
I
used
to
come
into
those
shots
in
my
bathrobe
flying
and
then
when
I
hit
the
ground
and
the
newspaper
was
thrown
at
me
by
the
newspaper
guy
and
I
caught
it
the
alarm
would
go
off
and
I
wake
up
in
bed
I
spent
five
days
being
hung
by
wires
and
filming
through
my
dreams
and
Sam
said
to
me
yeah
the
flying
sequences
are
all
gone
and
the
trial
is
gone
and
I
was
like
what
what
are
you
talking
about
and
here's
my
other
little
favorite
story
about
Sam
and
that
when
we
were
shooting
in
the
valley
one
of
those
places
I
flew
this
was
an
indoor
set
Sam
said
to
me
in
the
morning
hey
at
lunch
I
just
want
to
record
a
guide
track
of
all
the
dialogue
all
of
your
narration
because
they
just
needed
an
editing
as a
guide
and I
said
sure
so I
remember
we came
outside
of this
in this
hallway
where I
had a
dressing
room
in this
little
studio
we were
in
and Sam
had like
a cassette
tape recorder
and like
a little
microphone
and we
put it
on the
floor
and he
pushed
record
and I
read
the
entire
narration
and I
never
did it
again
that's
the
narration
in the
movie
because
Sam
said
when he
listened
to it
I
wasn't
trying to
do
anything
he said
you had
no idea
where these
things were
going
where they
were going
to be
placed
what they
were going
to mean
you just
read it
so
innocently
so
purely
so
directly
that
I
knew
if I
brought
you
into
a
studio
and
put
headphones
on
you
and
had
you
do it
again
it
would
change
the
ease
with which
you'd
done
it
and so
they
just
fixed
all of
the
problems
that they
had
with
this
little
cassette
and
that
is
the
way
I
did
it
and
the
only
time
I
did
it
was
in
this
little
hallway
and once
again
a great
performance
lies in
being
doing
less
yeah
yeah
the
innocence
and the
purity
of
lust
he
knew
I
would
have
come
into
the
studio
and
fucked
it
up
yeah
what do
you think
about the
notion
of beauty
that
permeates
American
beauty
what do
you think
that theme
is
with the
roses
with the
rose
petals
the
the
characters
that are
living this
mundane
existence
slowly
opening
their eyes
up to
what is
beautiful
in life
see it's
funny
I don't
think of
the roses
and I
don't
think of
her body
and the
poster
and I
don't
think of
those
things
as
the
beauty
I
think
of
the
bag
I
think
that
there
are
things
we
miss
that
are
right
in
front
of
us
that
are
truly
beautiful
the
little
things
the
simple
things
yeah
and in
fact
I'll
even
tell you
something
that
I
always
thought
was
so
incredible
when we
shot
the
scenes
in the
office
where
Lester
worked
the job
he
hated
there
was a
bulletin
board
behind
me
on a
wall
and
someone
who
was
watching
a
cut
or
early
dailies
who
was
in
the
marketing
department
saw
that
someone
had
cut
out
a
little
piece
of
paper
and
stuck
it
and
it
said
look
closer
and
they
presented
that
to
Sam
as
the
idea
of
what
that
could
go
on
the
poster
the
idea
of
looking
closer
was
such
a
brilliant
idea
but
it
wasn't
in
the
script
it
was
just
on
a
wall
behind
me
and
someone
happened
to
zoom
in
on
it
and
see
it
and
thought
that's
what
this
movie
is
about
taking
the
time
to
look
closer
and
I
think
that
in
itself
is
just
beautiful
mortality
also
permeates
the
film
you
know
it
starts
with
acknowledging
that
death
is
on
the
way
that
Lester's
time
is
finite
you
ever
think
about
your
own
death
yeah
scared
of
it
when
I
was
at
my
lowest
point
yes
it
scared
me
what
does
that
fear
look
like
what
what's
the
nature
of
the
fear
what
are
you
afraid
of
that
there's
no
way
out
that
there's
no
answer
that
nothing
makes
sense
see
the
interesting
thing
about
Lester
is
facing
the
same
fear
he
seemed
to be
somehow
liberated
and
accepted
everything
and then
saw the
beauty
of it
because
he got
there
he was
given
the
opportunity
to
reinvent
himself
and
to
try
things
he'd
never
tried
to
ask
questions
he'd
never
asked
to
to
trust
his
instincts
and
to
become
the
best
version
of
himself
he
could
become
and
so
Dick
Van
Dyke
who
has
become
an
extraordinary
friend
of
mine
Dick
is
98
years
old
and
he
says
you
know
if I'd
known I
was
going to
live
this
long
I
would
have
taken
better
care
of
myself
when I
spend
time
with
him
I'm
just
moved
by
every
day
you know
he gets
up
and he
goes
it's a
good
day
I
woke
up
and
I
learn
a lot
about
I
have
a
different
feeling
about
death
now
than
I
did
seven
years
ago
and
I
am
on
the
path
to
being
able
to
be
in
a
place
where
I've
resolved
the
things
I
needed
to
resolve
and
I
won't
probably
get
to
all
of
it
in
my
lifetime
but
I
certainly
would
like
to
be
in
a
place
where
if
I
were
to
drop
dead
tomorrow
it
would
have
been
an
amazing
life
so
Lester
got
there
it
sounds
like
Dick
Van Dyke
got
there
you're
trying
to
get
there
sure
you
said
you
feared
death
at
your
lowest
point
what
was
the
lowest
point
it
was
November
1st
of
2017
and
then
Thanksgiving
day
of
that
same
year
so
let's
talk
about
it
let's
talk
about
this
dark
time
let's
talk
about
the
sexual
allegations
against
you
that
led
to
you
being
cancelled
by
well
the
entire
world
for the
last
seven
years
I
would
like
to
personally
understand
the
sins
the
bad
things
you
did
and
the
bad
things
you
didn't
do
so
I
also
should
say
that
the
thing
I
hope
to
do
here
is
to
give
respect
to
due
process
innocent
until
proven
guilty
that
the
mass
hysteria
machine
of
the
internet
and
clickbait
journalism
doesn't
do
so
here's
what I
understand
there were
criminal
and civil
trials
brought
against
you
including
the one
that started
it all
when
Anthony
Rapp
sued
you
for
40
million
dollars
in
these
trials
you
were
acquitted
found
not
guilty
and
not
liable
is
that
right
yes
I
think
that's
really
important
again
in
terms
of
due
process
and
I
read
a lot
and
I
watched
a lot
in
preparation
for
this
on
this
point
including
of
course
the
recently
detailed
interviews
you did
with
Dan
Wooten
and
then
Allison
Pearson
of
The
Telegraph
and
those
are
all
focused
on
this
topic
and
they
go
in
detail
where
you
respond
in
detail
to
many
of
the
allegations
if
people
are
interested
in
the
details
they
can
listen
to
those
so
based
on
that
and
everything
I
looked
at
as
I
understand
you
never
prevented
anyone
from leaving
if they
wanted
to
sort of
in the
sexual
context
for example
by blocking
the door
is that
right
that's
correct
yeah
you
you
always
respected
the
explicit
no
from
people
again
in
the
sexual
context
that
right
that
is
correct
you've
never
done
anything
sexual
with
an
underage
person
right
never
and
also
as
is
sometimes
done
in
Hollywood
let me
ask
this
you've
never
explicitly
offered
to
exchange
sexual
favors
for
career
advancement
correct
correct
in terms
of bad
behavior
what did
you do
what was
the worst
of it
and how
often
did you
do it
I have
heard
and now
quite often
that everybody
has a Kevin Spacey
story
and what that
tells me is
that I hit on
a lot of
guys
how often
did you
cross the
line
and what
does that
mean
to you
I did a lot
of horsing
around
I did a lot
of things
that at the
time I
thought were
sort of
playful
and fun
and I
have learned
since
were not
and I
have had
to
recognize
that
I
crossed
some
boundaries
and I
did some
things
that were
wrong
and I
made
some
mistakes
and
that's
in my
past
I mean
I've been
working
so hard
over these
last seven
years
to have
the conversations
I needed
to have
to listen
to people
to understand
things from
a different
perspective
than the
one that
I had
and to
say
I will
never
behave that
way again
for the
rest of
my life
just to
clarify
I think
you're
often
too pushy
with the
flirting
and that
manifests itself
in multiple
ways
but just
to make
clear
you never
prevented anyone
from leaving
if they
wanted to
you always
took the
explicit no
from people
as an answer
no stop
you took that
for the
answer
you've
never
done
anything
sexual
with an
underage
person
and you've
never
explicitly
offered
to exchange
sexual
favors
for career
advancement
these are
some of
the sort
of accusations
that have
been made
and in the
court of law
multiple times
have been shown
not to be true
but I have
had a sexual
life
and I've
fallen in
love
and I've
been so
admiring of
people
that I
I mean
I'm so
romantic
I'm such a
romantic
person
that
there's this
whole side
of me
that hasn't
been talked
about
isn't being
discussed
but that's
who I know
that's the
person I know
it's been
very upsetting
to hear that
some people
have said
I mean
I don't have
a violent
bone in my
body
but to
hear people
describe
things as
having been
very aggressive
is incredibly
difficult for
me
and I'm
deeply sorry
that I
ever offended
anyone or
hurt anyone
in any way
it is
it is crushing
to me
and I have
to work
very hard
to show
and to prove
that I have
learned
I got the
memo
and I will
never ever
ever behave
in those
ways again
from everything
I've seen
in public
interactions
with you
people love
you
colleagues
love you
co-workers
love you
there's a
flirtatiousness
another word
for that
is chemistry
there's a
chemistry
between the
people you
work with
and by the
way
not to
take anything
away from
my accountability
for things I
did where I
got it wrong
I crossed the
line
I pushed
some boundaries
I accept
all of that
but I
live in an
industry
in which
flirtation
attraction
people meeting
in the
workspace
and ending
up
marrying each
other and
having children
and so
it is a
it is a
it is a
space and
a place
where
these notions
of family
these notions
of attraction
these notions
it is always
complicated if
you meet
someone in
the workspace
and find
yourselves
attracted to
each other
you have to
be mindful
of that
and you have
to be very
mindful that
you don't
ever want
anyone to
feel that
their job
is in
jeopardy
or you
would punish
them in
some way
if they
no longer
wanted to
be with
you
so those
are important
things to
just acknowledge
another
complexity to
this
as I've
seen
is that
there's just
a huge
number of
actors that
look up to
you
a huge
number of
people in
the industry
that look up
to you
so just
and love
you
I've seen
just from
this documentary
just a lot
of people
just love
being around
you
learning from
you what
it means
to create
great
theater
great
film
great
stories
and so
that adds
to the
complexity
I wouldn't
say it's a
power dynamic
like a boss
employee
relationship
it's a
admiration
dynamic
that
is easy
to miss
and easy
to take
advantage
of
is that
something
you
understand
yes
and I
also
understand
that there
are people
who met
me
and spent
a very
brief period
of time
with me
but presumed
I was
now going
to be
their
mentor
and
then
behaved
in a
way
that I
was
unaware
of
that
they
were
either
participating
or flirting
along
or encouraging
me
without me
having any
idea that
at the end
of the day
they were
expecting
something
so
these are
about
relationships
these are
about
two
people
these are
about
people
making
decisions
people
making
choices
and
I
accept
my
accountability
in that
but there
are a
number
of
things
that I've
been accused
of
that just
simply
did not
happen
and
I
can't
say
and I
don't
think it
would be
right
for me
to say
well
everything
that's
ever
I've
been
accused
of
is
true
because
we've
now
proved
that
it
isn't
and
it
wasn't
but
I'm
perfectly
willing
to
accept
that
I
had
behaviors
that
were
wrong
and
that
I
shouldn't
have
done
and
I
am
regretful
for
I
think
that
also
speaks
to
Dark Side
of Fame
the sense
I got
is that
there are
some
people
potentially
a lot
of
people
trying
to
make
friends
with
you
in
order
to
get
roles
in
order
to
advance
their
career
so
not
you
using
them
but
they
trying
to
use
you
what's
that
like
how do
you
know
if
somebody
likes
you
for
you
for
Kevin
or
likes
you
for
like
you
said
you're
romantic
you
see
a
person
and
you're
like
I
like
this
person
and
they
seem
to
like
you
how do
you
know
if
they
like
you
for
you
well
to
some
degree
I
would
say
that
I
have
been
able
to
trust
my
instincts
on
that
and
that
I
most
of
the
time
been
right
but
obviously
in the
last
number
of
years
not
just
with
people
who
have
accused
me
but
just
also
people
in
my
own
industry
to
realize
that
oh
I
thought
we
had
a
friendship
but
I
guess
that
was
about
an
inch
thick
and
and
not
what I
thought
it
was
but
look
one
shouldn't
be
surprised
by
that
I
have
to
also
say
you
know
you
said
a little
while
ago
that
the
world
had
canceled
me
and
I
have
to
disagree
with
you
I
have
to
disagree
because
for
seven
years
I've
been
stopped
by
people
sometimes
every
day
sometimes
multiple
times
a
day
and
the
conversations
that I
have
with
people
the
generosity
that they
share
the
kindness
that they
show
and
how
much
they
want
to
know
when
I'm
getting
back
to
work
tells
me
that
while
there
may
be
a
very
loud
minority
there
is
a
quieter
majority
in
the
industry
have
you
been
betrayed
in
life
and
how
do
you
not
let
that
make
you
cynical
I
think
betrayal
is a
really
interesting
word
but
I
think
if
you're
going
to
be
betrayed
it
has
to
be
by
those
who
truly
know
you
and
I
can
tell
you
that
I
have
not
been
betrayed
that's
a
beautiful
way
to
put
it
for
the
times
you
cross
the
line
do
you
take
responsibility
for
the
wrongs
you've
done
yes
are
you
sorry
to
the
people
you
may
have
hurt
yes
yes
and
I
have
spoken
to
many
of
them
privately
privately
which
is
where
amends
should
be
made
were
they
able
to
start
finding
forgiveness
absolutely
some
of
the
most
moving
conversations
that
I
have
had
when
I
was
determined
to
take
accountability
have
been
those
people
who
said
thank
you
so
much
and
I
think
I
can
forgive
you
now
if
you
got
a
chance
to
talk
to
the
Kevin
Spacey
of
30
to
40
years
ago
what
would
you
tell
him
to
change
about
his
ways
how
would
you
do
it
what
would
be
your
approach
would
you
be
nice
about
it
would
you
smack
him
around
I
think
if
I
were
to
go
back
that
far
I
probably
would
have
found
a
way
to
not
have
been
as
concerned
about
my
revealing
my
sexuality
and
hiding
that
for as
long
as I
did
I
think
that
had
a
lot
to
do
with
confusion
and
a lot
to
do
with
mistrust
both
my
own
and
other
people's
for
most
of
your
life
you
were
not
open
with
the
public
about
being
gay
what
was
the
hardest
thing
about
keeping
who
you
love
a
secret
that
I
didn't
find
the
right
moment
of
celebration
to be
able
to
share
that
that
must
be
a
thing
that
weighs
on
you
to
not
be
able
to
fully
celebrate
your
love
you
know
Ian
McKellen
said
after
40
he was
49
when he
came
out
27
years
he'd
been
a
professional
actor
being
in the
closet
and he
said
he felt
it was
like he
was
living
a part
of his
life
not
being
truthful
and
that
he
felt
that
it
affected
his
work
when
he
did
come
out
because
he
no
longer
felt
like
he
had
anything
to
hide
and
I
absolutely
believe
that
that
is
what
my
experience
has
been
and
will
continue
to
be
I
am
sorry
about
the
way
I
came
out
but
Evan
and I
had
already
had
the
conversation
I
had
already
decided
to
come
out
and
so
it
wasn't
like
oh
I
was
forced
to
come
out
but
it
was
something
I
decided
to
do
and
by
the
way
much
against
Evan's
advice
I
came
out
in
that
statement
and
he
wishes
that
I
had
not
done
so
yeah
you
made
a
statement
when
the
initial
accusation
happened
it
could
be
up
there
as
one
of
the
worst
social
media
posts
of
all
time
it's
like
two
for
one
don't
hold
back
now
come
on
really
tell
me
the
first
part
you
kind
of
implicitly
admitted
to
doing
something
bad
which
was
later
shown
and
proved
completely
to
never
have
happened
it
was
a
lie
no
I
I
basically
said
that
I
didn't
remember
what
this
person
was
that
Anthony
Rapp
was
claiming
from
31
years
before
I
had
no
memory
of
it
but
if
it
had
happened
if
this
embarrassing
moment
had
happened
then
I
would
owe
him
an
apology
that
was
what
I
said
and
then
I
said
and
while
I'm
at
it
I
think
I'll
come
out
and
you
know
it
was
definitely
not
the
greatest
coming
out
party
ever
I
will
admit
that
from
the
public
perception
the
first
part
of
that
so
first
of
the
part
as a
horrible
way
to
come
out
yes
we
all
agree
and
then
the
first
part
from
the
public
viewpoint
they
see
guilt
in
that
which
also
is
tragic
because
at
least
that
particular
accusation
and it's a
very dramatic
one
it's a
$40
million
lawsuit
it's
big
deal
and
the
underage
person
was
shown
to
be
false
well
but
you're
you're
melding
two
things
together
the
lawsuit
didn't
happen
until
2020
and
then
back
in
2017
when
it
was
just
an
accusation
he
made
in
BuzzFeed
magazine
look
I was
backed
into a
corner
when
someone
says
you
were
so
drunk
you
won't
remember
this
thing
happened
what's
your
first
instinct
is
your
first
instinct
to
say
this
person
is
a
liar
or
is
your
first
instinct
to
go
what
I
was
what
31
years
at a
party
I
don't
even
remember
throwing
obviously
a lot
of
investigation
happened
after
that
in
which
we
were
then
able
to
prove
in
that
in
that
court
case
that
it
had
never
occurred
but
at
the
moment
I
was
sort
of
being
told
I
couldn't
push
back
you
have
to
be
kind
you
can't
I
think
even
to
me
now
none
of it
sounds
right
but
I
don't
know
that
I
could
have
said
anything
that
would
have
been
satisfactory
to
anybody
okay
there's
a
almost
convincing
explanation
for the
worst
social
media
post
of
all
time
I
almost
accept
it
I'm
really
surprised
you
I guess
you
haven't
read
a lot
of
media
posts
because
I
can't
believe
that's
the
worst
one
it's
beautifully
bad
that social
media
post
is
as you
mentioned
Liam Neeson
and Sharon
Stone
came out
in support
of you
recently
speaking
to your
character
a lot
of people
who
know
you
and
some
of
whom
I
know
who
have
worked
with
you
privately
show
support
for
you
but
are
afraid
to
speak
up
publicly
what do
you make
of that
I mean
to me
personally
this just
makes me
sad
because
perhaps
that's
the
nature
of the
industry
that
it's
difficult
to do
that
but
I just
wish
there would
be a
little bit
more
courage
in the
world
I
don't
think
it's
about
the
industry
I
think
it's
about
our
time
I
it's
the
time
that
we're
in
and
people
are
very
afraid
just
afraid
just a
general
no
they're
literally
afraid
that
they're
going to
get
canceled
if
they
stand
up
for
someone
who
has
been
and
I
think
it's
I
mean
you
know
we've
seen
this
many
times
in
history
this
is
not
the
first
time
it's
happened
so
as
you
said
your
darkest
moment
in
2017
when
all of
this
went
down
one
of
the
things
that
happened
is
you
were
no
longer
in
the
house
of
cards
for
the
last
season
let's
go to
the
beginning
of
that
show
one
of
the
greatest
TV
series
of
all
time
a
dark
fascinating
character
in
Frank
Underwood
a
ruthless
cunning
borderline
evil
politician
what
are
some
interesting
aspects
to
the
process
you
went
through
becoming
Frank
Underwood
maybe
Richard
the
third
there's
a lot
of
elements
there
in
your
performance
that
maybe
inspired
that
character
well
is that
fair or
no
I'll
give
you
I'll
give
you
one
very
interesting
specific
education
that I
got
in
doing
Richard
the
third
and
closing
that
show
at
BAM
in
March
of
2012
and
two
months
later
started
shooting
House of
Cards
there
is
something
called
direct
address
in
Shakespeare
you
have
Hamlet
talks
to
the
world
but
when
Shakespeare
wrote
Richard
the
third
it
was
the
first
time
he
created
something
called
direct
address
which
is
the
character
looks
directly
at
each
person
close
by
it
is
a
different
kind
of
sharing
than
when
a
character
is
doing
a
monologue
opening
of
Henry
IV
and
while
there
are
some
people
who
believe
that
direct
address
was
invented
in
Ferris
Bueller
it
wasn't
it
was
Shakespeare
who
invented
it
so
I
had
just
had
this
experience
every
night
in
theaters
all
over
the
world
seeing
how
people
reacted
to
becoming
a
co-conspirator
because
that's
what
it's
about
and
what
I
tried
to
do
and
what
Fincher
really
helped
me
with
in
those
beginning
days
was
how
to
look
in
that
camera
and
imagine
I was
talking
to
my
best
friend
because
you're
sharing
the
secret
of
the
darkness
of
how
this
game
is
played
with
that
best
friend
yeah
and
there
were
many
times
when
I
suppose
the
writers
thought
I
was
crazy
where
I
would
see
a
script
and
I
would
see
like
this
moment
where
this
direct
address
would
happen
and
say
all
this
stuff
and
I
go
when
we
do
a
read
through
of
the
script
I
go
I
don't
think
I
need
to
say
any
of
that
and
they
were
like
what
do
you
mean
I
said
well
the
audience
knows
all
of
that
all
I
have
to
do
is
look
they
know
exactly
what's
going
on
I
don't
need
to
say
a
thing
so
I
was
often
cutting
dialogue
because
it
just
wasn't
needed
because
that
relationship
between
that
I
learned
that
I
experienced
doing
Richard
the
third
was
so
extraordinary
where
I
literally
watched
people
they
were
like
oh
I'm
in
on
the
thing
and
this
is
so
awesome
and
then
suddenly
he
killed
the
kids
he
killed
those
kids
in
the
tower
oh
maybe
it's
not
so
and
you
literally
would
watch
them
start
to
reverse
their
having
had
such
a
great
time
with
Richard
the
third
in
the
first
three
acts
and
I
thought
this
is
going
to
happen
in
this
show
if
this
intimacy
can
actually
land
and
I
think
there
was
some
brilliant
writing
and
we
always
attempted
to
do
it
in
one
take
no
matter
how
long
something
was
we
would
try
to
do
it
in
one
take
the
direct
addresses
so
there
was
never
a
cut
when
we
went
on
locations
we
started
to
then
find
ways
to
cut
it
and
make
it
slightly
broader
but
that's
interesting
because
you're
doing
a bunch
of
with
both
Richard
third
and
Frank
Underwood
a bunch
of
dark
borderline
evil
things
and
then
I
guess
the
idea
is
you're
going
to
be
losing
the
audience
and
then
you
win
them
back
over
with
the
addresses
that's
a
remarkable
thing
is
against
their
instincts
and
their
better
sense
of
what
they
should
and
should
not
do
they
still
rallied
around
Frank
Underwood
and
I saw
even
with the
documentary
the glimmers
of that
with
Richard
the
third
I
mean
you were
seducing
the
audience
like
there
was
such
a
chemistry
between
you
and
the
audience
on
stage
yeah
yeah
well
in that
production
that's
absolutely
true
also
Richard
is one
of the
weirder
weird
I mean
by weird
it was an
early play
of Shakespeare's
and
he's
basically
never
off
stage
I mean
I remember
when we did
the first
run through
I had
no idea
what the
next scene
was
every time
I came
off stage
I had
no idea
what was
next
they literally
had to
drag me
from one
place
to another
say
now it's
the scene
with
Hastie
now it's
the scene
but I
now
understand
these
wonderful
stories
that you
can read
in old
books
about
Shakespeare's
time
that actors
grabbed
Shakespeare
around
the cuff
and punched
him and
threw him
up against
the wall
and said
you ever
write a part
like this
again I'm
gonna kill
you
and that's
why in
later plays
he started
to have
a pageant
happened
and then
a wedding
happened
and the main
character was
off stage
resting
because the
actor had
said you
can't do
this to
us
there's
no
breaks
and it's
true
there's
very few
breaks
in Richard
III
you're on
stage most
of the
time
the comedic
aspect of
Richard III
and Frank
Underwood
is that a
component that
helps bring
out the
full complexity
city of
the darkness
that is Frank
Underwood
I certainly
can't take
credit for
Shakespeare
having written
something that
is funny
or
Bo Willimon
and his team
to have written
something that
is funny
it's fundamentally
funny
it just depends
on how
I interpret
it
on
you know
there are
you know
that's one of
the great
things
why we
love
you know
in a year's
time we can
see five
different
hamlets
we can
see four
Richard III
we can
see two
Richard II
that's part
of the
thrill
that we
don't own
these parts
we borrow
them
and we
interpret
them
and what
Ian McKellen
might do
with a role
could be
completely
different from
what I
might do
because of
the way
we perceive
it
and also
very often
in terms
of going
for humor
it's very
often a
director will
say
why don't
you say
that with
a bit
of irony
why don't
you try
that with
a bit
of blah
blah
yeah
there's
often
that
like a
wry smile
the line
that jumps
to me
when you're
talking about
Claire
in the early
maybe first
episode even
I love
that woman
more than
sharks love
blood
I just
I mean I
guess there's
a lot of
ways to
read that
line
but the
way you
read it
had both
humor
and
legitimate
affection
and all
the ambition
and narcissism
all of that
mixed up
together
I also think
that one
should just
acknowledge
that where
he was
from
there is
something that
happens when
you do an
accent
and in fact
sometimes
the one
I would
say
to Bo
or one
of the
other writers
this is
really good
and I love
the idea
but it
rhythmically
doesn't
help
I need
at least
two more
words to
rhythmically
make this
work
in his
accent
because
it just
doesn't
scan
and that's
not iambic
pentameter
I'm not
talking about
that
there is
that as
well in
shakespeare
but there
was sometimes
when it's
too many
lines
it's not
enough
lines
in order
for me
to make
this work
for the
way he
speaks
the way
he sounds
and what
that accent
does
to
emphasis
how much
of that
character
in terms
of the
musicality
of the
way he
speaks
is bill
clinton
not really
at all
I mean
clinton
you know
look
bill clinton
he had a
way of
talking
you know
that he
was very
slow
and he
felt your
pain
you know
but frank
underwood
was a
deeper
more direct
and less
poetic
in the way
that that
clinton
would
talk
I'll tell
you this
clinton story
that you'll
like
so we
decided to
do a
performance
of the
iceman
cometh
for the
democratic
party
on
broadway
and the
president
is going
to come
he's going
to see
this
four and a
half
hour
play
and then
we're
going to
do this
event
afterward
and a
couple weeks
before we're
going to do
this event
someone at the
white house
calls and
says
listen
it's very
unusual to
get the
president
for like
six and a
half hours
so we're
suggesting
that the
president
come and
see the
first act
and then
he goes
and i
knew what
was
happening
now first
of all
clinton
knows this
play
he knows
what this
play is
about
and i
you know
as gently
as i
could
said well
if the
president
is thinking
of leaving
at intermission
then i'm
afraid we're
going to have
to cancel
the event
there's just
no way
that
so anyway
then i
don't know
it's fine
it's fine
now i
know what
was happening
what was
happening
was that
someone had
read the
play
and they
were quite
concerned
and i'll
tell you
why
because the
play is
about this
character that
i portrayed
named hickey
and in the
course of the
play as
things get
more and
more revealed
you realize
that this
man that i'm
playing has
been a
philanderer
he's cheated
on his wife
quite a lot
and by the
end of the
play he is
arrested and
taken off
because he
ended up
ending his
wife's life
because she
forgave him
too much
and he
couldn't
live with
it
so now
imagine this
there's
2,000
people at
the brooks
atkinson
theater
watching
president
clinton
watching
this play
at the
end of the
night we
take our
curtain call
they bring
out the
presidential
podium
bill clinton
stands up
there and
he says
well
i suppose
we should
all thank
calvin
and this
extraordinary
company of
actors
for giving
us all
way too
much to
think about
and the
audience fell
over in
laughter
and then he
gave a great
speech and i
thought that
was a pretty
good way to
handle that
well in that
way him and
frank underwood
share like a
charisma
there's certain
presidents that
just have
politicians that
just have this
charisma you
can't stop
listening to
them some of
it is the
accent but
some of it is
some other
magical thing
when i uh
was starting to
do research
um i wanted to
meet with the
whip kevin
mccarthy
and uh
he wouldn't
meet with
me until i
called his
office back and
said tell him
i'm playing a
democrat not a
republican
and then he
met with me
nice and he
was helpful
he took me to
whip meetings
politicians uh
so you worked
with david
fincher that
he uh
he was the
executive producer
but he also
directed uh
the first two
episodes yeah
high level what
was it like
working with him
again uh
in which ways
do you think he
helped guide you
in the show
to become the
great show that
it was i
i give him
uh
a huge amount
of um
the credit
and
not just for
what he
established
but the fact
that every
director
after
stayed within
that world
i think that's
why the series
had a very
consistent
feeling to
it
it was like
watching a
very long
movie
the style
where the
camera went
what it did
what it
didn't do
how we
used this
how we
used that
how we
didn't do
this
there were
there were
things that
he laid
the foundation
for
that
we managed
to maintain
pretty much
until
uh
bo williman
left the
show
they got
rid of
fincher
and i was
sort of the
last man
standing
in terms of
fighting against
netflix had
never had any
creative control
at all
we had
complete creative
control
but over
time
they started
to
get themselves
involved
because look
this is what
happens to
networks
you know
they'd never
made a
television show
before
ever
and then
four years
later
they were the
best
and so
you know
then you're
going to get
suggestions about
casting and
about writing
and about
who's
music and
scenes
and so
there was
there was
a considerable
amount of
pushback
that i had
to do
when they
started to
get involved
in ways
that i
thought was
affecting the
quality of
the show
what are those
battles like
like i heard
that there was
a battle
with the
execs
like you
mentioned
early on
about your
name not
being on
the billing
for seven
i heard that
there's battles
about the
ending of
seven
which was
really
well
it's
pretty dark
so what's
that battle
like
how often
does that
happen
how do
you win
that battle
because it
feels like
there's a
line
where the
networks or
the the
execs are
really afraid
of crossing
that line
into this
strange
uncomfortable
place
and then the
director great
directors and
great actors
kind of flirt
with that line
it can happen
in different
ways i mean i
remember one
argument we
had was we
had specifically
shot a scene
so that there
would be no
score in that
scene so that
there was no
music it was
just two people
talking and
then we end up
seeing a cut
where they've
decided to put
music in and
it is against
everything that
scene's supposed
to be about and
you have to go
and say guys
this was
intentional we
did not want
score and now
you've added score
because what you
think it's too
quiet you think
our audience
can't listen
to two people
talk for two
and a half
minutes with
this show
has proved
anything it's
proved that
people have
patience and
they're willing
to watch an
entire season
over a weekend
so there are
those kind of
arguments that
can happen
you know
there's
there's
different
arguments on
different levels
and they
sometimes have
to do with
i mean look
go back to
the godfather
they wanted to
fire pacino
because they
didn't see
anything happening
they saw
nothing happening
so they wanted
to fire
pacino
and then
finally coppola
thought i'll
shoot the scene
where he kills
the police
commissioner
and and
they'll do
that scene
now and
that was the
first scene
where they
went yeah
actually there's
something going
on there
so pacino
kept the role
you think that
godfather's when
pacino was like
the pacino we
know was born
or is that more
like there's the
character that
really over the
top in
sentible woman
there's like
stages i
suppose
yeah of course
look i think
that we can't
forget that
pacino is also
an animal of
the theater
you know he
does a lot of
plays and he
started off doing
plays and
you know movies
were you know
panic and needle
park was his
first
and yeah i think
there's a that
period of time when
he was doing
some incredible
parts incredible
movies
when i did a
series called
wise guy i got
cast on a
thursday and
i flew up to
vancouver on a
saturday i
started shooting
on monday and
all i had time to
do was watch the
godfather and
serpico and
then i went to
work
would you say
ridiculous question
godfather greatest
film of all time
well
certainly
certainly yes
yes
but i also look
like i'm i'm
allowed to change
my opinion i
can next week say
it's lawrence of
arabia or a week
after that i can
say um
sullivan's travels
i mean that's
the wonderful thing
about movies and
particularly great
movies is when you
see them again
it's like seeing
them for the first
time yeah and you
pick up things that
you didn't see the
last time and and
for that day you
fall in love with
that movie you
might even say
uh to a friend that
that is the greatest
movie of all time
and also i think
it's the it's it's
it's the degree with
which directors are
daring i mean
kubrick decided to
cast one actor to
play three major
roles in dr
strangelove i mean
who who has the
balls to do that
today i was going
to mention when
we're talking about
seven that just if
if you're if you're
looking at the
greatest performances
portrayals of
murderers so
obviously like i
mentioned handball
lectern silence of
the lambs that's up
there seven to me is
like competing for
first place with
silence of the lambs
but then there's a
different one uh
with kubrick and
jack nicholson right
with shine with the
shine and there's a
as opposed to a
murderer who's always
been a murderer here's
a person like an
american beauty who
becomes that who
descends into madness
yeah i i read also
that jack nicholson
improvised here's
johnny in that
scene i believe that
that's a very different
performance than yours
in seven what uh what
do you make of that
performance nicholson's
always been such an
incredible actor because
he has absolutely no shame
about being demonstrative
and over the top and he
also has no problem
playing characters who
are deeply flawed and he's
interested in that i have a
pretty good nicholson story
though nobody nobody knows
you also have a pretty good
uh nicholson impression but
what's the story
story is a story was told to
me by a sound man
dennis maitland who's a
great great great guy
he said he uh he was very
excited because he he got on
pritzy's honor which was
jack nicholson angelica
houston directed by john
houston
he said i was so excited my
first day on the movie and i
get told to go into mr
nicholson's trailer and mike
him up for the first scene
so i knock on the trailer
door and i hear yes and uh
come on in i come inside mr
nicholson is changing out of
his regular clothes and he's
putting on he's going to put
on his costume and so i'm
setting up the mic and i'm
getting ready and i said mr
nicholson i i just wanted to
tell you i'm i'm extremely
excited to be working with you
again it's it's it's a great
pleasure and jack goes did we
work together before and he
says yes uh yes we uh we did
what what film did we do
together he says uh well we
did uh missouri breaks
nicholson goes oh my god
missouri breaks jesus christ we
were out of our minds on that
film holy shit jesus christ
wonder i'm alive my god there
was so much drugs going on and
we were stoned out of our
minds holy shit just then he
folds the pants that he's just
taken off over his arm and an
eighth of coke drops out on the
floor
dennis looks at it nicholson
looks at it jack goes
haven't worn these pants since
missouri breaks
man i love that guy unapologetically
himself
oh yeah your impression of him
like at the afi was just it was
just great well that was for that
was for mike nichols oh yeah he
had a big impact in your career
huge really important can you
talk about him like what what
role did he play in your life i
think it was uh yeah it was
1984 i went in to audition for the
national tour of a play called the
real thing which jeremy irons and
glenn close were doing on broadway
that mr nichols had directed so i
went in to read for this character
brody who is a scottish character
and i did the audition and uh mike
nichols comes down the aisle of the
theater and he's asking me questions
about where'd you go to school and
what have you been doing i just come
back from doing a bunch of years of
regional theater and different
theaters so i was in new york and
meeting mike nichols was just
incredible
so mr nichols went um have you um have
you seen the other play that i directed
up the block called hurly burly and i
said no i haven't he says why not i
said i can't afford a broadway ticket
he said we can arrange that i'd like
you to go see that play and then i'd
like you to come in next week and
audition for that
i was like okay so i went to see hurly
burly
william hurt harvick kytel
chris walken
candace bergen
cynthia nixon
jerry stiller
and i watched this play it's played
david ray play about hollywood
this is crazy i mean bill hurt was
like
unbelievable and it was
extraordinary chris walken this
case
so there's this harvick kytel
walken came in later harvick kytel's
playing this part
and i come in and i audition for it
nichols says i want you to uh
understudy harvick kytel i want you to
understudy phil
and i'm like phil i mean harvick kytel
is like in his 40s he looks like he
can beat the shit out of everybody on
stage i'm this like 24 year old
and nichols said it's all about
attitude if you believe you can beat
the shit out of everybody on stage the
audience will too
so i then started to learn phil
and the way it works when you're an
understudy
unless you're a name they don't let
you rehearse on the stage
you just rehearse in a rehearsal room
but i used to sneak onto the stage
and rehearse and try to figure out
where the props were and yada yada
anyway one day i get
a call
you're going on today it's phil
so i went on
nichols is told by peter lawrence who's
the stage manager
spacey's going on as phil so nichols
comes down and
watches the second act
comes backstage he says
that was really good
how soon could you learn mickey
mickey was the role that ron silver was
playing
chris walken also played
i said i i don't i don't know
i i maybe maybe a couple weeks he goes
learn mickey too
so i i learned mickey
and then one day i'm told
you're going on tomorrow night is mickey
nichols comes
sees the second act
comes backstage
says
that was really good
i mean that was really funny
how soon could you learn eddie
and so i became like the pinch hitter
on hurly burly
i learned all the male parts including
jerry stillers although i never went on his jerry stillers part
and then i left the play
and i guess about two months later i get this phone call
from mike nichols
he's like kevin how are you and i'm like i'm fine
what what can i do for you
he says well i'm gonna make a film this summer with mandy and merrill and
there's a role i'd like you to come in and
and uh and auditioned for so i went in
auditioned
cast me as this
mugger on a subway
then there's this whole upheaval that happens because
he then
doesn't continue with mandy potemkin
mandy leaves the movie
and he asked jack nicholson to come in
and replace mandy potemkin
so now
i had no scenes with him
but
i'm in a movie with jack nicholson and meryl streep
and my first scene
in this movie
which i shot on my birthday
july 26th
of 85
um
i got to wink at meryl streep
uh
in this scene and i
i was so nervous
i could
i literally couldn't wink
nichols had to like
calm me down
and help me wink
um
but that became my first
my very first film
um
and he was incredible
and he let me
come and watch
when they were shooting scenes
i wasn't in
um
and i remember ending up one day
in the makeup
trailer
on the same day
we were working
jack and me
we had no scene together
but i remember him coming in
and they put him down in the chair
and they put cucumbers
frozen cucumbers on his eyes
and did his neck
and then they raised him up
and did his face
and then i remember nicholson
went like this
looked in the mirror
and he went
another day
another fifty thousand dollars
and walked out of the trailer
well what was christopher walking like
oh
so he's a he's a theater guy too
oh yeah
he started out as a chorus boy
dancer
well i can see that
yeah
the guy knows how to move
i know walking a long time
and i did a saturday night live
where i did
um
we did these uh
star wars auditions
so i
i did chris walken
as as han
so good
and uh
i'll never forget this
i was in los angeles
about two weeks after
and i was at chateau marmal
there's some party happening
at chateau marmal
and i saw chris walken
come
out of
onto the balcony
and i was like
oh shit
it's chris walken
and he walked up to him
and he went
kevin
i saw your little sketch
it was funny
haha
oh man
it was a really good sketch
and that guy
there's certain people
that are
truly unique
and
unapologetic
continue being that
throughout their whole career
the way they talk
the musicality
of how they talk
how they are
their way of being
he's that
yeah
and it somehow works
his watch
yeah
i mean it works
in so many different contexts
his
he plays like a mobster
in true romance
and it's like genius
that's genius
but he could be anything
he could be soft
he could be a badass
all of it
and he's always
christopher walken
but somehow works
for all these different characters
so i guess we were talking
about
house of cards
like two hours ago
before we
took a tangent
upon a tangent
but
there's a moment
in episode one
where
president walker
broke his promise
to frank underwood
that he would make him
a secretary of state
was this when
the monster
in frank
was born
or was the monster
always there
the sort of
for you looking
at that character
was there an idealistic
notion to him
that there's loyalty
and that broke him
or did he always know
that there is
this whole world
is about manipulation
and do anything
to get power
well i mean
it might have been
the first moment
an audience saw
him
be betrayed
but it certainly
was not the first
betrayal he'd experienced
and once you start
to get to know him
and learn about his life
and learn about his father
and learn about his
you know
friends and learn about
their relationship
and learn
what he was like
even as a cadet
i think you start
to realize
that this is a man
who has
um
very strong beliefs
about loyalty
and so it wasn't
the first
it was just
the first moment
that
in terms of
the storyline
that's being built
night takes king
was the name
of our production company
yeah
uh
what do you think
motivated him
at that moment
and throughout the show
was it all about power
and also legacy
or was there some
small part
underneath it all
where he
wanted to
actually do good
in the world
no
i think power
is a
is a
afterthought
what he loved
more than anything
was being able
to predict
how human beings
would react
he was a
behavioral
psychologist
and he could
know
like he was
17 moves ahead
in the chess game
he could know
if he did this
at this moment
that eventually
this would happen
he was able
to be
predictive
and
was usually
right
he knew
just how far
he needed to push
someone
to get them
to do
what he needed
them to do
in order to
make the next
step work
you've played
a bunch of
evil characters
well you call
them evil
but you don't
but my
the reason i say
that i don't
mean to be
snarky about it
but the reason
i say it that
way is because
i never judge
the people i play
and the people
that i have
played or that
any actor has
played don't
necessarily view
themselves as
this label
it's easy to
say
but
that's not
the way i can
think i
cannot
judge a
character i
play and
then play
them well
i have to
be free
of judgment
i have to
just play
them and
let the
cards drop
where they
where they
may and
let an
audience judge
i mean the
fact that you
use that
word is
perfectly fine
that's your
you know
but it's like
people asking
me you know
was i really
from k-packs
or not
you know
it's just
entirely depends
on your
perspective
do roles
like that
like seven
like frank
underwood
like uh
lesser from
american beauty
do they
change you
psychologically
as a person
so walking
around in the
skin of
these
characters
these
complex
characters
with a
very different
moral
systems
um
i absolutely
believe that
wandering
around in
someone else's
ideas
in someone
else's
clothes
in someone
else's
shoes
teaches you
enormous
empathy
and and that
goes to the
heart of not
judging
and i have
found that i
have been so
moved by i
mean look
let's yes
you've you've
identified the
darker characters
but i put
clarence darrow
three times
i've played a
play called
national anthems
i've done
movies like
recount i've
done films like
the ref i've
done films that
in which
there are that
isn't that
doesn't exist in
any of those
characters that
those qualities
pay it forward
um
and so it
is
um
incredible to
be able to
embrace
those things
that i
admire and
that are
are like
me and
those things
that i don't
admire and
aren't like
me
but i
have to put
them on an
equal footing
and say i
have to just
play them as
best i can
and not
um
decide to
wield judgment
over them
without judgment
without judgment
in gulag
archipelago
alexander
solzhenitsyn
famously writes
about the line
between good
and evil
and that it
runs to the
heart of
every man
so the
the full
paragraph
there
when he
talks about
the line
during the
life of
any heart
this line
keeps changing
place
sometimes it
is squeezed
one way
by exuberant
evil
and sometimes
it shifts
to allow
enough space
for good
to flourish
one in the
same human
being is
at various
ages
under various
circumstances
a totally
different
human being
at times
he is close
to being
a devil
at times
to sainthood
but his name
doesn't change
and to that
name we
ascribe the
whole lot
good
and evil
what do you
think about
this note
that we're all
capable of
good and evil
and throughout
life that line
moves and
shifts
throughout the
day
throughout
every hour
yeah I mean
one of the
things that
I've been
focused on
very succinctly
is the idea
that every
day is an
opportunity
it's an
opportunity
to
make better
decisions
to
learn
and to
grow
and I
also think
that
look
I
I grew
up not
knowing if
my parents
loved me
particularly
my father
I never
had a sense
that
I was
loved
and that
stayed with
me my
whole life
and when
I
think
back
at
who my
father
was
and
more
succinctly
who he
became
it was
a
gradual
and
slow
and
sad
development
when I've
gone back
and now
I've
looked at
diaries
my father
kept
and albums
he kept
particularly
when he
was a
medic
in the
US
army
served
our
country
with
distinction
when
the war
was over
and they
went to
Germany
the things
my father
said
the things
that he
wrote
the things
that he
believed
were as
patriotic
as any
American
soldier
who had
ever
served
but
then
when he
came
back
to
America
and
he
had
a
dream
of
being
a
journalist
or
his
big
hope
was
that
he
was
going
to be
the
great
American
novelist
he
wanted to
be a
creative
novelist
and so
he
sat
in his
office
and he
wrote
for 45
years
and never
published
anything
and
somewhere
along the
way
in order
to make
money
he
became
what they
call a
technical
procedure
writer
which
the best
way to
describe
that
is that
if you
built
the
F-16
aircraft
my father
would have
written
the
manual
to tell
you
how to
do
it
I
mean
as
boring
as
technical
as
tedious
as
you
can
imagine
and so
somewhere
in the
60s
and into
the
70s
my father
fell in
with groups
of people
and individuals
pretend
intellectuals
who started
to give him
reasons
why he
was not
successful
as a
white
Aryan
man in
the United
States
and over
time
my father
became a
white
supremacist
and I
cannot tell
you
the amount
of times
as a
young
boy
that my
father
would sit
me down
and lecture
me
for
hours
and
hours
and
hours
about
his
fucked
up
ideas
of
America
of
prejudice
of
white
supremacy
and thank
God for
my sister
who said
don't
listen to
a thing
he says
he's out
of his
mind
and even
though I
was young
I knew
everything he
was saying
was against
people
and I
loved
people
I had
so many
wonderful
friends
my best
friend
Mike
who's still
my close
friend to
this day
I was afraid
to bring
him to
my house
because I
was afraid
that my
father would
find out
he was
Jewish
or that
my father
would leave
his office
door open
and someone
would see
his Nazi
flag
or his
pictures
of Hitler
or Nazi
books
or what
he might
say
so
when I
found
theater
in the
eighth grade
and debate
club
and choir
and festivals
and plays
and everything
I could
do
to participate
in
that wouldn't
make me
have to
come back
home
I did
and
I've had
to reconcile
who he
became
because the
gap between
that man
who was in
the US
army
as a
medic
and the
man he
became
I could
never fill
that gap
but
I've
forgiven
him
but then
at the
same time
I've had
to look
at my
mother
and say
she made
excuses
for him
oh he
just needs
to get
it off
his chest
oh it
doesn't
matter
just let
him say
so while
on the
outside
I would
say oh
yeah my
mother loved
me
but she
didn't
protect
me
so was
the
was all
the stuff
that she
expressed
and all
of the
attention
and all
the love
that I
felt
was that
because I
became
successful
and I
was able
to fulfill
an emptiness
that she'd
lived with
her whole
life with
him
I don't
know but
I've had
to ask
myself
those
questions
over these
last years
to try
to reconcile
that for
myself
and the
thing you
wanted
from them
and for
them is
less hate
and more
love
did your
dad said
he loves
you
I don't
have any
memory of
that
I was in
a program
and they
were showing
us
an experiment
that they'd
done with
psychologists
and mothers
and fathers
and their
children
and the
children
were anywhere
between six
months and a
year
sitting in a
little crib
and the
exercise was
this
parents are
playing with
the baby
right there
toys
yada yada
baby's laughing
and then the
psychologists
would say
stop
and the
parent would
go like
this
and you
would then
watch for
the next
two and a
half three
minutes
this child
trying to
get their
parents attention
in any
possible way
and I remember
when I was
sitting in this
theater watching
this
I saw
myself
that was
me
screaming
and reaching
out and
trying to get
my parents
attention
that was
me
and that
was
not something
I'd ever
remembered
before
but I
knew that
what that
baby was
going through
is there
some elements
of
politics
and maybe
the private
sector
that
are captured
by the
house of
cards
like how
true to
life
do you
think that
is
from
everything
you've
seen
about
politics
from
everything
you've
seen
about
the
politicians
of this
particular
elections
I heard
so many
different
reactions
from
politicians
about
house of
cards
some
would
say
oh
it's
not
like
that
at
all
and
then
others
would
say
it's
closer to
the
truth
than
anyone
wants
to
admit
and
I
think
I
fall
down
on
the
side
of
that
idea
I
have
to
interview
some
world
leaders
some
big
politicians
in
your
understanding
of
trying
to
become
Frank
Underwood
what
advice
would
you
give
in
interviewing
Frank
Underwood
how
do
how
to
get
him
to
say
anything
that's
at all
honest
well
in
Frank's
case
all
you have
to do
is
tell
him
to
look
into
the
camera
and
he'll
tell
you
what
you
want
to
hear
unfortunately
we don't
get
that
look
into
the
mind
of
a
person
the
way
we
do
with
Frank
Underwood
in
real
life
sadly
well
but
you
could
say
to
somebody
you
like
the
series
House
of
Cards
you know
I'd
love
for you
to
just
look
into
the
camera
and
tell
us
what's
really
going
on
what
you
really
feel
about
blah
blah
blah
that's
a good
technique
I'll
try
that
with
Zelensky
with
Putin
what do
you hope
your legacy
as an
actor
is
and
as a
human
being
people
ask
me
now
what's
your
favorite
performance
you've
ever
given
and
my
answer
is
I
haven't
given
it
yet
so
there's
a lot
more
that I
want
to
be
challenged
by
be
inspired
by
there's
a lot
that I
don't
know
there's
a lot
I have
to
learn
and
that
is
a very
exciting
place
to feel
that I'm
in
you know
it's been
interesting
because you
know
we're
going
back
we're
talking
and
you know
it's
it's
nice
to go
back
every
now
and
then
but
I'm
focused
on
on
what's
next
do you
hope
the world
forgives
you
people
go to
church
every
week
to be
forgiven
and I
believe
that
forgiveness
and I
believe
that
redemption
are
beautiful
things
I mean
look
don't
forget
I
live
in
an
industry
in
which
there
is
a
tremendous
amount
of
conversation
about
redemption
from a
lot of
people
who
are
very
serious
people
in
very
serious
positions
who
believe
in
it
I mean
that
guy
finally
got
out
of
prison
he
was
wrongly
accused
that
guy
who
served
his
time
and
got
out
of
prison
we
see
so
many
people
saying
let's
find
a
path
for
that
person
let's
help
that
person
rejoin
society
but
there
is
an
odd
situation
if
you're
in
the
entertainment
industry
you're
not
offered
that
kind
of
a
path
and
and
I
hope
that
the
fear
that
people
are
experiencing
will
eventually
subside
and
common
sense
will
get
back
to
the
table
if
if
it
does
do
you
think
you have
another
Oscar
worthy
performance
in
you
listen
if
it
would
piss
off
Jack
Lemon
again
for
me
to
win
a
third
time
I
absolutely
think
so
yeah
well
you
have
to
mention
him
again
you
know
Ernest
Hemingway
once
said
that
the
world
is
a
fine
place
and
worth
fighting
for
and
I
agree
with
him
on
both
counts
Kevin
thank
you
so
much
for
talking
today
thank
you
thanks
for
listening
to
this
conversation
with
Kevin
Spacey
to
support
this
podcast
please
check
out
our
sponsors
in
the
description
and
now
let
me
leave
you
with
some
words
for
Meryl
Streep
acting
is not
about
being
someone
different
it's
finding
the
similarity
in what
is
apparently
different
and
then
finding
myself
in
there
thank
you
for
listening
and
hope
to
see
you
next
time