The following is a conversation with Joe Rogan that we recorded after my recent
appearance on his podcast, The Joe Rogan Experience.
Joe has been an inspiration to me and I think to millions of people for just
being somebody who puts love out there in the world and being genuinely
curious about wild ideas from chimps and psychedelics to quantum
mechanics and artificial intelligence.
Like many of you, I've been a fan of his podcast for over a decade and now
somehow miraculously I'm humbled to be able to call him a friend.
If you enjoy this thing, subscribe on YouTube, review it with five stars on
Apple Podcasts, follow on Spotify, support on Patreon or connect with me
on Twitter at Lex Freedman.
Today's sponsors are Neuro, Eight Sleep, Dollar Shave Club and Olive Garden,
home of the Unlimited Breadsticks and Brian Radban's favorite restaurant.
Check out the first three of the sponsors in the description to get a
discount and to support this podcast.
I usually do full ad reads here and never ads in the middle, but this time
let's go straight to the conversation with a bit of guitar first.
Do you ponder your mortality?
Are you afraid of death?
I do think about it sometimes.
I mean, it does pop into my head sometimes.
Just the fact that, uh, I mean, I'm 53.
So if everything goes great, I have less than 50 years left.
You know, if everything goes great, like no car accidents, no injuries.
But it could happen today.
This could be your last day.
Could be.
That's kind of a stoic thing to meditate on death.
There's a bunch of philosophers, Ernest Becker and Sheldon Solomon.
They believe that death is at the core of everything.
We're at this book, Warm at the Core.
So does that come into play in the way you see the world?
I think having a sense of urgency is very beneficial and understanding that your
time is limited can aid you greatly.
I think knowing that this is a temporary time that we have finite life spans.
I think there's a, there's great power in that because it motivates you.
It gets you going.
I think being an immortal living forever would be one of the most
depressing things, particularly if everybody else was dying around you.
And I think one of the things that makes life so interesting and fascinating is
that it doesn't last, you know, that you, you really get a brief amount of time here.
And really by the time you're just starting to kind of figure yourself out who you are
and how not to screw things up so bad, like time's up.
The ride's over.
What about from your, like, from your daughter's perspective, do you, do you
think about the world we're in now?
Do you think about the world we're in now and what kind of world you're going to leave them?
I do.
And do you worry about it?
I do.
Yeah, I do.
I do when I see these protests and riots and chaos and so much, so much anger in the
world today.
And then particularly today, I think because of the pandemic and the fact that so many
folks are out of work and through no fault of their own and can't make ends meet.
And just people feel so helpless and angry.
It's a particularly divisive time.
It's a particularly turmoil filled time.
And it just doesn't seem like the world of a year ago even, it feels very chaotic and dangerous.
And this, and it's a small thing, like in terms of the, like the possibilities of
things that could happen to the world, like a pandemic, like the one we've experienced,
it really just doubles the amount of deaths on a bad flu year.
So it, relatively speaking, is a small thing, comparison to super volcano eruptions,
asteroid impact, a real horrific pandemic, or one that, you know, really wipes out
millions and millions of people.
It's, it's stunning how fragile civility is.
It's stunning how fragile our society really is that something like this can come along.
Some unprecedented thing, unprecedented thing can come along.
And all of a sudden, everybody's out of work for six months.
And then everybody's at each other's throats.
And then politically, everyone's at each other's throats.
And then with the advent of social media and the images that you can see, you know,
with the videos of police abuse and just racial tensions are at an all time high to a
point where like, have you asked me just five or six years ago, like, are, have racial
problems in this country largely been alleviated?
I'd probably say, yeah, it's way better than it's ever been before.
But now you could argue that it's not.
Now you could argue, no, it's way worse in just a small amount of time.
It's way worse than it's ever been during my lifetime.
Well, while I'm aware of it, you know, obviously when I was a young boy in the 60s,
they were still going through the civil rights movement.
But now, it just seems very fever pitched.
And I think a lot of that is because of the pandemic and is because of all the, the heightened,
just tension.
The one I likened it to is, um, road rage, because, you know, people have road rage,
not just because they're in the car and no one can get to them, but also because you're
at a heightened state because you're driving fast and you know, you're driving fast.
You know, you have to make split second movements.
And so anybody doing something, you're like, what the, people go crazy because they're,
they're already at an eight because they're in the car and they're moving very quickly.
That's what it feels like with today, with the pandemic.
It feels like everybody is already at an eight.
So anything that comes along, it's like light it all on fire, you know, burn it down.
Like that's part of what I think is part of the reason for a lot of the looting and the
riots and all the chaos.
It's not just the people that are at work, but it's also that everyone feels so tense.
Tense already and everyone feels so helpless and it's like, you know, doing something like
that makes people, uh, it just, it gives people a whole new motivation for chaos,
a whole new motivation for, for doing destructive things that I've never experienced in my life.
And your better days when you see a positive future, what do you think is the way out
of this, uh, chaos of 2020?
Like if you visualize a 2025, that's a better world than today.
What is that?
How do we get there?
And what does that look like?
It's a good question.
I, I, I can honestly say, I don't know.
And, uh, I wouldn't have said, I don't know a year ago, a year ago, I would have said,
we're going to be okay.
As much as people hate Trump, the economy is doing great.
I think we're going to be fine.
That's not how I feel today.
Today, uh, I don't think there's, uh, a clear solution politically because I think of Trump wins,
people are going to be furious.
And I think of Biden wins, people are going to be furious, um, and particularly like if
things get more woke, you know, if people, uh, continue to enforce this, uh, force compliance
and make people behave a certain way and act a certain way, which seems to be a part of
what this whole woke thing is, that is the most disturbing for me is that I see what
is going on.
I see there's a lot of losers that have hopped on this and they, they shove it in people's faces
and it doesn't have to make sense.
Like there was a Black Lives Matter protest that stopped this woman at a restaurant.
Uh, they were surrounding her outside a restaurant.
They were forcing her to raise her fist in compliance.
This is a woman who's marched for black lives multiple times, but black lives matter multiple
times.
And the people all around her doing this were all white.
Yeah.
It's all, it's all weird.
My friend coach T, he's a wrestling coach who's also, uh, on a podcast, my friend Brian
Moses, his take on it is that black, and he's a black guy.
He says black lives matter is a white cult.
I'm like, when you see that picture, it's hard to argue that he's got a point.
I mean, it's clearly not all about that, but there's a lot of people that have jumped on
board that are very much like cult members because the thing about black lives matter
or any movement is you can't control who joins.
There's no entrance, uh, examination.
So you don't go, okay, how do you feel about this?
What's your perceptions on that?
Like how, you like the, the man who shot the Trump supporter in Portland, you know,
that guy who, uh, murdered the Trump supporter than the cop shot him.
That guy was walking around with his hand on his gun looking for Trump supporters.
Just want, I mean, he's a known violent guy who was walking around looking
for Trump supporters, found one and shot one.
That has nothing to do with black lives matter.
He's a white guy.
He shot another white guy.
It's just, it's just madness, you know?
And then that kind of madness is, uh, it's disturbing to see it ramp up so quickly.
I mean, there's been, there's been riots in Portland every night.
Oh, excuse me, demonstrations for 101 days now.
101 days in a row of them lighting things on fire, breaking into federal buildings.
It's like, who ever saw that coming?
Nobody saw that coming.
So I don't know what the solution is and I don't know what it looks like in five years.
So 2025 to answer your question, like, it could be anything.
I mean, we could be looking at Mad Max.
We could be looking at the apocalypse.
We could, we could also be looking at an invasion from another country.
We could be looking at a war, like a real hot war.
To put a little bit of responsibility on you.
Like for me, I've listened to you since the red band Olive Garden days.
That's the very beginning.
And, uh, there was something in the way you communicated about the world.
Maybe there was others, but you're the one I was aware of is you're open-minded and, uh,
like loving towards the world, especially as the podcast developed.
Like you just demonstrated and lived this kind of just kindness or maybe even like lack of jealousy
in your own little profession of comedy.
It's, it was clear that you didn't, you didn't succumb to the weaker aspects of human nature.
And thereby inspire like people like me, who I was, I was naturally probably,
especially in like the 20s, early 20s, kind of jealous on the success of others.
And you're really the primary person that taught me to, um, truly celebrate the success of others.
And so by way of question, you kind of have a role in this of making a better 2025.
You have such a big megaphone.
Is there something you think you can do on this podcast with the words,
the way you talk, the, the things you discuss that could create a better 2025?
I think if anything, I could help in leading by example, but you know,
that's only going to help the people that are listening.
I don't know what else I can do in terms of like make the world a better place other than
express my hopes and wishes for that and just try to be as nice as I can to people as often as I can.
But I also think that I've fallen into this weird category, particularly with the Spotify deal
where, um, you know, I'm one of them now.
I'm not a regular person anymore.
Now I'm like some famous rich guy.
So you go from being a regular person to a famous rich guy that's out of touch,
you know, and, uh, that, that's a real issue whenever you're talking about the economy,
about just real life problems.
It's, it's interesting.
It kind of hurts my heart to hear people say about Elon Musk, he's just a billionaire.
Yeah.
It's an interesting statement.
But I think if you just continue being you and he continued being him,
people, people, I think people are just voicing their worry that you become some rich guy.
I don't even know if they're doing that.
I think they're just finding the way he describes it, an attack vector.
Right.
Yeah.
And I think he's right.
I think they just, uh, they can dismiss you by just saying, oh, you're, you're just a that,
you know, you're a, you know, you're easily, uh, definable.
Right.
But there, I mean, there's truth to that.
You, if you're not careful, you can become out of touch, but you, that's an interesting thing.
Like how, why haven't you become out of touch?
Like as a human off the podcast, you don't act like a, like you, you talk to somebody like me.
You don't talk like a famous person or you don't, you don't act rich.
Like you're better than others.
There's a certain, listen, I've talked to quite a few, you have two, but I've talked to especially
kind of group of people that like Nobel Prize winners, let's say,
they have sometimes have an error to them that's of arrogance and you don't, what's that about?
Well, you got to know what that is, right?
Like, um, that air of arrogance comes from drinking your own Kool-Aid.
You, you start believing that somehow or another, just because you're getting praise
from all these people that you really are something different.
Usually it, it exemplifies, there's, there's something there.
There's, where there's a lack of struggle, you know, and I think struggle is
probably one of the most important balancing tools that a person can have.
And for me, um, I struggle mentally and I struggle physically.
I struggle mentally in that.
I like, we were talking about on the podcast we did previously,
you and I on my podcast said, I'm not a fan of my work.
I'm not a fan of what I do.
I'm a, I'm my harshest critic.
Yeah.
So anytime anybody says something bad about me, I'm like, listen, I said way worse about myself.
I, you know, I don't like anything I do.
I'm ruthlessly introspective and I will continue to be that way.
Cause that's the only way you could be good as a comedian.
There's no other way.
You can't just think you're awesome and just go out there.
You have to, you have to be like picking apart everything you do,
but there's a balance to that too.
Cause you have to have enough confidence to go out there and perform.
You can't think, oh my God, I suck.
I know what I'm doing, but I know what I'm doing because I put in all that work.
And one of the reasons why I put in all that work is I don't like the,
I don't like the end result most of the time.
So I need to work at it all the time.
And then there's physical struggle, which I think balances everything out without physical struggle.
I've always make the analogy that the body is in a lot of ways like a battery where if you have extra charge,
it's like it leaks out of the top and it becomes unmanageable and messy.
And that's how my psyche is.
If I, if I have too much energy, if I'm not, if I'm not exerting myself in a violent way,
like an explosive way, like wearing myself out, I just don't like the way the world is.
I don't like the way I interface with the world.
I'm too tense.
I'm too quick to be upset about things.
But when I work out hard and, you know, I put in a brutal training session, everything's fine.
Well, the first time I talked to you on Jerry, you were doing October.
Sober October.
And there's something in your eyes.
Like I think you've talked about that, you know, you exercise the demons out essentially.
So you exercise to get whatever the parts of you that you don't like out.
There's a dark, there's a darkness in you there, like the competitiveness and the focus of that person.
That was a scary time in a lot of ways, that sober October thing.
Because my friends, we were all talking shit, right?
Because we're competing against each other in these fitness challenges and you had one point,
like you got a certain amount of points for each minute that you went at 80% of your max heart rate.
And one day I got 1,100 points.
So I did seven hours on an elliptical machine watching the bathhouse scene from John Wick,
where he murders all those people in the bathhouse.
Like probably 50 times in a row.
I went crazy.
I went crazy, but I went crazy in a weird way where it brought me back to my fighting days.
It was like the same, that person came out again.
I didn't even know he was in there.
It's like there, like an assassin, like a killer.
I felt like a different person.
Is it echoes of like what Mike Tyson talked about essentially?
Maybe, but no orgasmic emotions.
That was the craziest shit that he was saying.
Is there a violent person in there?
Oh yeah.
There's a lot of violence in me for sure.
I don't know if it's genetic or learned,
or it's because during my formative years from the time I was 15 until I was 22, all I did was fight.
That was all I did.
That was all I did.
It was train and compete.
That's all I did.
That was my whole life.
Is it connected to, so your mom and dad broke up early on.
Is it connected to the dad at all?
I'm sure it's connected to him also because he was violent and it made me feel very scared to be around him.
But I also think it's connected in who he was as a human is transferred into my DNA.
I think there's a certain amount of, I mean, to be prejudice against myself, I look like a violent person.
If I didn't know me, even the way I'm built, not even just the working out part, just the size of my hands.
There's the width of my shoulders.
There's most likely a lot of violence in my history, in my past, in my ancestry.
I think we minimize that with people, so much of your behavior.
When I see my daughter, I have one daughter that's obsessive in terms of she wants to get really good at things.
She'll practice things all day long and it's 100% my personality.
She's me in a female form, but without the anger as much and without the fear, like she has a loving household and everything like that.
But she has this intense obsession with doing things and doing things really well and getting better.
What's the point we have to tell her, stop doing handsprings in the house.
Stop, stop.
Come on, just sit down, have dinner.
One more, one more.
She's psycho.
I think there's a lot of behavior and personality and a lot of these things are passed down through genetics.
We don't really know, right?
We don't know how much of who you are genetically is learned behavior, nature or nurture.
We don't know if it's learned behavior or whether or not it's something that's intrinsically a part of you because of who your parents were.
I think there's certainly some genetic violence in me.
And then you channeled it.
Basically, your life is a productive exploration of how to channel that.
Yes, how to figure out how to get that monkey to sit down and calm down is another person in there.
There's a calm, rational, kind, friendly person who just wants to laugh and have fun.
And then there's that dude who comes out when I did sober October.
That guy's scary.
I don't like that guy.
That guy just wants to get up in the morning and go.
And when I was competing, it was necessary, but it makes me remember.
I didn't really remember what I used to be like until that.
It's like when I'm working out seven hours a day and just so obsessed and all I was thinking about was winning.
That's all I was thinking about.
If they were working out five hours a day, I wanted them to know that I was going to work out an extra three hours.
And I was going to get up early and I was going to text them all, hey, pussies, I'm up already.
Take pictures, send selfies.
I was like, you're going to die.
I kept telling them, you're all going to die.
You try to keep up with me.
You're going to die.
You weren't fully joking.
No, I wasn't joking at all.
That's what was fucked up about it.
This is the scary thing when I interacted with Goggins.
And what I saw in you during that time is this guy, this is why I've been avoiding David Ganges recently.
Because he wants to meet, he wants to talk on this podcast, but he also wants to run an ultramarathon with me.
And I felt like this is a person, if I spend any time in this realm, if I spend any time with a Joe Rogan of that sober October, I might have to die to get out.
There's this kind of...
Yeah, there's a competitive aspect that's super unhealthy.
I mean, you saw the video that we watched earlier today of Goggins draining his knee, that would stop me from running ever again.
Because I would think in my head, okay, I'm going to ruin my cartilage.
I'm going to need a knee replacement.
I would start thinking, I would go down that line.
But he is perpetually in this push it mindset, what he calls the dog in him.
That dog is in him all day long and he feeds that dog.
And that's who he is.
That's one of the reasons why he's so inspirational and he's fuel for millions and millions of people.
I mean, he really is, he motivates people in a way that is so powerful.
But it can be very destructive.
I know now, especially after the sober October thing, that that thing's still in me.
I didn't know.
So I really haven't done anything physically competitive.
Except one time I was supposed to fight Wesley Snipes.
He came out then too.
That came out too.
That got creepy too.
But luckily that never happened.
But that was many months of training, like training twice a day, every day, kickboxing
in the morning, jujitsu at night.
I was just going and going and going and going.
And I was just thinking just all day long.
But it fucks with all the other aspects of your life.
It fucks with your friendships.
It fucks with my comedy.
It fucks with everything.
Because that mindset is not a mindset of an artist.
It's a mindset of a conqueror.
A conqueror, yeah.
A destroyer.
That's why it's so interesting to see Mike Tyson make the switch.
It's clear that whatever that is, however that fight goes, there's a switch.
He stepped into a different dimension.
Roy Jones Jr. is coming on my podcast soon.
Roy's going to be on before the fight.
I'm so curious to see how it goes down, but genuinely concerned.
Because Mike Tyson is a heavyweight.
And Roy Jones at his best was 168 pounds.
I don't know if Roy has that room in his house,
mental house of where Mike Tyson goes.
I don't know if he has that room.
Mike doesn't have a room.
He's got an empire in there.
He opens up the door.
He opens up the door.
There's a whole empire in his head and he's in that firmly.
When he got out of the weed and started training again,
you could see it in him.
And by the way, physically, in person, he looks spectacular.
He looks like a fucking Adonis.
I mean, he looks ready to go.
It's crazy.
Yeah, I watch videos of him.
Have you ever considered competing in Jiu Jitsu?
No, for that very reason.
I don't want to get obsessed.
That's my number one concern.
I had to quit video games when we were playing video games at the studio.
I had to quit because I was playing five hours a day out of nowhere.
All of a sudden, I was playing five hours a day.
I was coming home late for dinner.
I was ending podcasts early and jumping on the video games and playing.
I get obsessed with things and I have to recognize what that is
and these competitive things, like competitive,
especially like really exciting competitive things like video games,
they're very dangerous for me.
The ultimate competitive video game is like Jiu Jitsu.
And if I was young, I most certainly would have done it.
If I didn't have like a very clear career path,
it was something that I enjoyed.
My concern would be that I would become a professional Jiu Jitsu fighter
when I was young and then I would not have the energy
to do stand-up and do all the other things that I wound up doing as a career.
When I was 21, I quit my job teaching.
I was teaching at Boston University.
I was teaching Taekwondo there and I knew,
and I also had my own school in Revere.
I knew I couldn't do it right and also be doing stand-up comedy.
I knew I couldn't do both of those things.
There was no way.
You have to be cognizant of that obsessive force within you
to make sure...
Yes.
I have to know how to manage my mental illness.
That's a very particular mental illness.
And I think that mental illness, again,
my formative years from 15 till I was 21-ish, 22,
those years were spent constantly obsessed with martial arts.
That was my whole day.
I trained almost every day.
The only time I would not train is if I was either injured or if I was exhausted.
If I needed a day off, but I was obsessed.
And so that part of my personality that I haven't nurtured
is always going to be there under the surface.
And when it gets reignited by something, it's very weird.
It's a weird feeling.
And it can get reignited with a video game.
It can get reignited with anything,
that obsessive, whatever it is, that competitive demon.
Yeah, the way you talk about guitar,
I know you would fall in love with playing guitar,
but I think you're very wise to not touch that thing.
That's why I want golf.
I have friends who want to golf.
I'm like, mm-mm, I don't fucking want that thing.
So a lot of people ask me,
what's Joe Rogan's jiu-jitsu game like?
Assuming that I somehow spend hours rolling with you before and after.
I mean, what's a good...
You should, at some point, show a technique or something.
That would be fun.
Sure, I mean, I've got...
What's your game?
What's your technique?
Oh, there...
I saw you doing a, I think, head and arm something online.
Yeah, I did.
That was...
I fucked my neck up doing head and arm chokes.
I did them so much that I...
Because you use your neck so much with head and arms chokes,
I developed a real kink in my neck.
And it turned out I had a bulging disc.
So you do it on that, just one side?
Well, it was...
No, I could do it on the left side,
but I definitely am better on the right side.
The right side was my best side.
So if you were to compete, let's say, what's your A game?
What would you go from standing up?
How would you go to submission?
Would you pull guard?
Would you take down?
How would you pass guard?
I don't have good takedowns.
I was not a good wrestler.
So I would most likely either pull guard or I would pull half guard.
Do you have a good guard?
Yes.
Are you comfortable being on your butt and your back?
Yes, I'm very flexible.
My rubber guard is pretty good.
You go to rubber guard?
I have good arm bars and good triangles off my back,
but I also have a very good half guard,
but my top game is my best.
I have a very strong top game.
Do you have a half guard?
Do you have a preference of what kind of guard
and how to pass that guard?
Is there a specific game plan?
Do you double underhooks from half guard as the game plan for me?
If I can get double underhooks from half guard,
I could sweep a lot of people.
So half guard, lock down, right?
Half guard, go into lock down, double underhooks.
Got it.
Clench to the body.
Suck the body in tight.
Pressure.
Massive pressure.
And then inch my way into a position,
we call it dog fight, inch my way into a position
where I could get the person on their back.
Yeah, that's what, because you did show me,
I still disagree with you about the tie thing,
that you can choke something.
Oh, tie as well.
It's so wrong.
Well, it's not wrong with you.
With you, it's wrong.
No, I think there's a system.
I have this thing with Donna here.
We're going to figure it out.
Okay.
Let's have a little velcro on the back.
Let's see.
You're just not the game.
You're cheating.
You're not, you're the exact, that's cheating.
Yeah, you did, I did feel when you showed me,
I think you showed me the rubber guard
because it's still a guard that's a little bit foreign to me.
I just felt that you can immediately feel,
not with the rubber guard,
but the way you move your body is,
you're like a Shanji type of guy
who knows how to control another human being.
So like some people are a little bit more,
I would say agile and technical,
like playful and kind of loose.
They work on transition, transition, transition.
You're a control guy.
Like you know how to control position and advanced position.
Donna is the same way.
He's all about control.
My game is smush.
That's my game, smush you.
Grab ahold of you.
Once I have you, why would I let you go?
That's my thought is like, why would I let you go?
I just want to incrementally move to a better position
until I can strangle you.
But I'm much more into strangling people than anything else.
Yeah, which is a great MMA approach for Jiu-Jitsu.
Well, too many people don't tap when you get their arms.
And it's not that I'm not opposed to arm bars.
I love arm bars, but everybody goes to sleep.
Yep.
And quit from pressure too.
I mean, quit mentally.
Yeah, you can't breathe.
You know, if you got a guy who's like a really good top game guy
and he mounts you,
and I'm a big fan of mounting with my legs crossed,
you know, like a guard, like a top guard.
And so I can squeeze with both legs and smush.
And I'm just looking for people to make mistakes
and slowly incrementally bettering my position
until I can get something locked up.
I love Jiu-Jitsu, though, man.
I just wish it didn't injure you.
Yeah.
You know, Jiu-Jitsu is like,
if your joints were more durable,
they could figure out a way to make joints more durable.
God, I could do Jiu-Jitsu forever.
Yeah.
It's so much fun.
I actually, I talked to this roboticist, Russ Tedrick.
He builds one of the world-class people
that builds human robots.
You're interested in Boston Dynamics.
Yeah.
He's one of the key people in that kind of robotics.
So I asked him the stupidest question of like,
how far are we from having a robot be a UFC champion?
And yeah, it's actually a really, really tough problem.
It's the same thing that, you know,
makes somebody like Danielle Comey,
like on the wrestling side special,
because you have to understand the movement of the human body
in ways that's so difficult to teach.
It's so subtle.
The timing, the pressure points,
like the leverage, all those kinds of things.
That's just for the clinch situation.
The movement for the striking is very difficult.
As long as you're not allowed as a robot
to like use your natural abilities of having a lot more power.
Right.
A lot more power and then more durable.
Right.
The human body, like especially meniscus.
Like you see the heel hook game,
like everybody's involved in leg locks and heel hooks.
Like all those guys wind up with torched knees.
Everyone's got torched knees.
Everyone's knees are torn apart.
And you don't grow new meniscus.
You know, that's like one of those joints where,
man, when it goes,
those guys are 28 years old have blown out knees.
Let me ask the ridiculous question.
What do you think, we're talking about cops.
What do you think is the best martial arts self-defense?
For sure, Jiu-Jitsu.
Yeah, for sure.
Wrestling?
I think grappling, I should say.
Judo as well.
Especially in a cold climate.
If you get someone who's got like a heavy winter jacket on,
my God, like Judo is an incredible martial art.
Plus concrete.
Does the worst place to be with a heavy winter jacket
with a Judo specialist and you're standing up with them?
Oh my God.
But I think grappling,
because in most self-defense situations,
it usually winds up with grappling.
You're definitely better off though knowing some striking,
because there's nothing more terrifying than when you go
to take someone down.
They actually have takedown skills, but they can fight.
And so they have takedown defense and they know how to fight.
And then you don't know how to stand up.
The worst thing in the world is seeing someone like reaching
who doesn't know how to do striking and someone cracks you.
What about all that Krav Maga talk,
which is like the whole line of argument that says
that Jiu-Jitsu and wrestling and all of these sports,
they fundamentally take you away from the nature of violence.
So they're just teaching you how to play
versus the reality of violence that is involved
in a self-defense situation that a totally different set
of skills would be needed.
In general, the people that say that Jiu-Jitsu
or other martial arts, it's more of a sport
and they don't really understand violence.
In general, the people that say that suck.
Yeah.
Anybody who thinks like someone's like,
hey man, I'll just bite you.
I'm like, are you going to bite me?
Okay. Do you think I'm going to bite you too?
What do you think of that?
What if I punch you in your fucking face?
Do you think you're still going to bite me
when you can't even see?
Yeah.
When you barely even know you're alive
and I choke you unconscious.
If someone's really good at Jiu-Jitsu,
good luck stabbing them with your keys.
You know, you don't have a chance.
You don't have a chance.
If someone's much better at you
and they trip you and get you on your back
and then they fucking elbow you in your face
and get a head and arm choke on you,
all that Krav Maga shit's out the window, son.
You're way better off learning what works
on trained killers.
This whole idea that you're going to poke some in the eye
and then you're going to kick them in the nuts.
You're going through these drills that,
yeah, it's good to know what to do
if you run into someone who doesn't know how to fight.
It's way better to know what to do
to someone who knows how to fight.
That's the best thing.
Learn how to fight against people
who know how to fight.
All that practice self-defense
and they're going to come at you with a knife.
You're going to grab the wrist and do that.
Look, it's good to know self-defense,
but it's much more important
to understand martial arts comprehensively.
When you understand martial arts comprehensively,
like there's no...
I shouldn't say there's no Krav Maga guys,
but it would be shocking
if a Krav Maga guy
and a mixed martial arts guy had a fight
and the mixed martial arts guy
who was a trained killer all around
didn't fuck that guy up.
That's what I would expect would happen.
I would not think that some guy
who has a little bit of this
and a little bit of that
and prepares for the streets
is going to be able to handle a person
who trains with killers on a day-to-day basis,
who rolls with Jiu-Jitsu black belts,
who trains with Muay Thai champions.
The best martial arts are the martial arts
that work on martial artists,
not the martial arts that work on untrained people.
What about we're in Texas now.
What about guns?
Well, that's the best martial art.
But would you, in this crazy time,
should people carry guns?
It's not a bad idea to have a gun
because if you need a gun, you have a gun.
And if you don't need a gun,
if you're a person with self-control,
you're not going to use it.
You're not going to just randomly use it,
but you have something to protect you.
This is the whole idea of the Second Amendment.
You're not going to do shootings or by terrible people
who murder people and do terrible things.
But all those things are real,
but they don't take away from the fundamental efficacy
of having a firearm and defending your family
or defending your life.
And there are real live situations
where people have had firearms
and it's protected them or their loved ones
or their stopped shooters.
There's many of these stories,
because then it tends to lead to this gun culture argument,
this pro-gun culture argument
that people find very uncomfortable.
Human beings are messy,
and we're messy in so many different ways, right?
We're messy emotionally.
We're messy physically.
But we're also messy in what's good or bad.
We want things to be binary.
We want things to be right or wrong, one or zero.
And they're not.
But there is crime in the world.
There is violence in the world.
And you're better off knowing how to fight
and you're better off knowing how to defend yourself
and you're better off having a gun.
I generally think that guns,
I do like the idea that guns,
Second Amendment helps protect the First Amendment.
There's a kind of sense that puts me at ease
knowing that so many people in this country have guns.
I mean, Alex Jones,
I just listened to one episode of Infowars for the first time.
Boy, he reminds me like when I drank some tequila,
I felt like I'm going to some dark places today.
That's how I feel like listening to him.
But he talks about like that it's,
he worries about martial law.
So basically government overreach by,
which happened throughout history.
Like there's something to worry about there.
But it puts me at ease knowing that so much of the population
has guns that people government would think twice
before instituting martial law in cities.
But I actually was asking almost like on the individual level,
I maybe shouldn't say this,
but I don't yet own a gun.
And I felt that if I carry a gun statistically,
just for me as a human knowing my psychology,
I feel like I'm more likely to die.
Like I feel like I would put myself in situations that I shouldn't.
Like the way I will see the world will change.
Because my natural feeling is like when somebody,
when I was in Philly and I knew late at night,
if West Philly, when some guy looks at you,
you can immediately calculate that this is dangerous human being.
There, it starts with a monkey look at first.
Like I'm a bigger monkey than you.
And that's where I found like, for example,
I'll do the beta thing of just looking down and turning away
and just getting out of trouble like very politely.
And basically that kind of approach,
because if you have, in terms of getting out of serious violent situations,
like serious something where you could die,
versus if I had a gun, I feel like I would want to be,
that there would be that cowboy monkey thing
where I would want to put myself in situations
where I'm a little bit of a savior even of myself
and almost create danger which can no longer,
like the escalation of which I can no longer control.
Well, you're talking about taking a gun somewhere
versus having a gun in your home.
Yes, yes, I mean carry on me.
That's a different situation and much harder to get a warrant
or a license for that.
Control concealed carry licenses, especially in Massachusetts,
they don't come easy.
A little message, yeah, that's a whole other thing.
You're saying gun in the home.
Yeah, gun in the home.
Having a gun, knowing how to use a gun.
I know how to use a gun. I've trained many hours
learning how to shoot a gun at tactical places.
There's a bunch of videos of me doing it on Instagram.
I practice and I think it's good to understand
how to be accurate.
So I've been a fan of your podcast for a long time.
You don't often talk about it
because you're always kind of looking forward,
but if you look at the old studio that you just left,
is there some epic memories that stand out to you
that you almost look back, I can't believe this happened?
Oh yeah, almost too many of them to count.
Is there something that pops into mind now?
All of them, Elon Musk,
blowing that flame thrower in the middle of the hallway.
I've got a video of that. Have you ever seen the video of it?
Yeah, I think you post that on Instagram.
I think I did too. Yeah, he's a madman.
Having Bernie Sanders in there,
just all the fun fight companions we did
and all the crazy podcasts with Joey Diaz and Duncan Trussell.
There were so many, there were so many moments.
Podcasts, this is a weird art form
and it almost seems like, it sounds silly,
but it almost seems like something that chose me
rather than I chose it.
I think of that all the time in some strange way.
It's like I'm showing up as like an antenna
and I just plug in and twist on
and then I take in the thing and I put it together
and I'm like a passenger of this weird ride.
Yeah, you've talked about this before.
I really like this idea of that human beings
are just carriers of these ideas.
Ideas are the ones who are breeding.
So in a sense like the idea found you as a useful brain
to use to spread itself through the podcasting medium.
Something that's on the,
because when I think about your podcast,
I think about Joey Diaz.
I think about all those comedians you've had.
I mean, I think you've had Joey on,
I mean, maybe close to 50 times 60, some crazy number.
Is there, I mean, he is over the top offensive,
just that's who he is to the core.
Is there some sense where you wondered
like whether it's right to have the Spotify episode
number one with Duncan Trussell for five hours.
No, I wanted to do it that way.
That's why we wore NASA suits and we got high as fuck.
It's like, that's the whole idea behind it.
I mean, can you introspect that a little bit?
Like, what is that?
Cause that's rare.
It's such a rare thing to do
because you're not supposed to talk to Duncan Trussell
with a huge platform that you have five hours.
Why not?
Because Donald Trump apparently watches your podcast.
So just the idea that there's these,
I mean, that's what I think about, you know,
these CEOs write to me that they listen to the podcast
that I do and I have somebody like a David Fravor
and I was nervous about it.
I was nervous to have a conversation.
For me, David Fravor is a Duncan Trussell,
which is like- Just because of his experiences with UFOs.
Yeah.
Just even just the way he sees the world
because he is open, I don't know if he's always like this,
but he opened himself to the possibility
of unconventional ideas.
Most people in the scientific community kind of say,
well, I don't really want to believe anything
that doesn't have a lot of hard evidence.
And so that was to me like a step.
And as the thing somehow becomes more popular,
it becomes this fear of like, well,
should I talk to this person or not?
And I mean, you're an inspiration in saying like,
do whatever the hell you want.
You have to.
But first of all, I have what you call fuck you money.
And if you have fuck you money, you don't say fuck you.
What's the point of having the fuck you money?
You're wasting it.
Like you're wasting the position.
Like someone said to me like,
why do you like sports cars so much?
Like how many cars do you have?
A bunch of cars.
Because if I was a kid and I said,
hey, if I was that crazy rich famous guy,
like I don't want to have a bunch of cool fucking cars.
So I would do that.
Because not everybody gets to do that.
Like if you're the person that gets to do that,
you're kind of supposed to do it.
If you want to, if that really does speak to you,
and I've talked to you about this before,
muscle cars specifically once for the 1960s
and the early 70s, they speak to me
in some weird way, man.
I could just stare at them.
Like I have a 65 Corvette.
I walk around it sometimes at night when no one's around.
What's your favorite muscle car?
Like what's your most badass late 60s?
Probably that car.
Probably that 65 Corvette.
65 Corvette.
Yeah.
I walk around it when no one's around.
I think I've driven a 69 Corvette.
Is there a particular year that just...
65 is generation two.
69 is generation three.
69 is like the...
It's even more curvy.
They're both awesome.
Just awesome in different ways.
But I just love muscle cars for whatever reason.
But the point is like, I like what I like.
And if I can do what I want to do,
I should do what I want to do.
And it's not hurting anybody.
And the thing is like, I would do the Duncan podcast
if no one was listening, right?
If we were just starting to do a podcast together
and no one cared, and it got like 2,000 views,
which we did for years.
For a long time.
I would do it with Duncan.
And we would get high.
And we'd talk crazy shit about aliens and spaceships.
And maybe, dude, maybe ideas are living life forms
and they're inside your head.
And that's how things get...
Man.
Yeah, man.
I've been just kind of morphed me and him together
and that because the life form, idea life form idea
is mine that I've really, I really think about a lot.
I think about a technical side, by the way.
When I heard you say that, because I've been thinking,
I was like, whoa, that's interesting.
They might be alive.
Because I don't know what the fuck they are,
but when someone has an idea for whatever an invention,
a toaster, and then they think about this,
all they need is like these heating elements
and a spring, and then it pops when it's done,
so I have a timer, and then they build this thing.
Now, all of a sudden, it's alive.
It's like you manifested it in a physical form.
A toaster's not the best example, but a car, an airplane.
You're thinking about a thing, like an idea
comes into your head, and you can say,
oh, well, it's just creativity.
It's a part of being a person.
It's how we invented tools and how we became better hunters.
All those things are true.
I'm not saying that there's some magic to what I'm saying,
but there's also a possibility that we're simplifying something
by saying that it's just creativity,
that it's just a natural human inclination to invent things.
But why is it possible that ideas, like creativity,
we are the only animal other than there's a few species
that create things like bees, make beehives,
but they're very uniform.
Some animals use tools, chimps will use sticks
to get termites and things like that,
but there's something about what we do that makes you wonder,
because just look at this room that we're in.
Look at all these electronics.
Look at all this crazy shit that human beings have invented
and then built upon others' inventions and proved and innovated.
These all came out of ideas.
The idea, it germinates in someone's head.
It bounces around.
They write it down.
They share it with others.
The other people who have similar ideas
or ideas that are complementary, they work together,
and they change the world.
The new thing in that is the idea is not the people.
We think we found the ideas, but it's more like the ideas found us.
The ideas find you.
They're literally in the air.
They come to you.
I always felt like that with bits.
When I come up with a bit,
that's why I'm always telling people
about the Stephen Pressfield book, The War of Art,
because he talks about respecting the muse
and the idea that your ideas come
when you sit down and you do the work
or you sit down like a professional
and you talk to the muse.
Tell me what to do.
If the muse was a real thing,
as if the muse is like some mystical creature
that comes and delivers you ideas,
even if that's not real, that's how it works.
It does work like that.
If you do treat it like it's a muse
and you treat it with the respect
and you treat it like a professional,
the ideas do come to you.
I never thought about what he's doing
because he's just sitting there waiting for the idea
that's trying to breed to find him.
That's a trippy thing.
If you show up and put in the time
and focus your energy on that,
the ideas, they will arrive.
They will arrive.
That's the same with writing comedy.
There's been many, many times
where I'll come home from the comedy store
and I just sit down and I start writing
and I've got nothing.
There's nothing there.
I'm just writing.
It's all bullshit.
Everything's good.
It's just like, hmm.
And then all of a sudden, bam, there's the idea.
And then all of a sudden I can't stop
and then it was a couple hours later
and I'm like, whoa.
And then the next night I'm on stage
and I'm like, how about that?
Boom, it gets this big laugh.
I'm like, holy shit.
And I know that came out of the discipline
to sit down and call the muse.
I mean, the cool thing is the ideas have found you
to like, oh, I'm going to use this dude.
Like he seems to have a podcast that's popular.
I'm going to breathe inside his brain
and spread it to others.
It's the same as...
Or an inventor.
You know, I'm going to use this guy
who's like desperately seeking some sort of a product
to bring to market.
Some guy who wants to invent things.
He's thinking about inventing things all the time.
Like these ideas that weasel their way into your head.
And it seems to me also that the frequency
that your mind operates under has to be correct
because one of the things about creativity seems to be
if you think about yourself a lot,
if you're really into yourself
or your image or your selfish,
those ideas are not...
They don't find you.
Yeah, it's funny.
It stifles the creative...
Yeah, it stifles the opportunity
that the idea has for defining.
Yes, which is one of the reasons why joke thieves,
people that steal jokes are terrible writers.
There's never like really good writers
who are also joke thieves.
It's just joke thieves.
And then, you know, when they have to write on their own,
if they get exposed, they become terrible comedians.
They're a shadow of what they were
when they were stealing other people's ideas
because the thing that would make you
steal a person's idea is that ego part.
The wanting to claim it for yourself,
the wanting to be the man or the woman.
You want to be the person who gets out there
and says it and everybody's going to love me for it.
You can't think like that and be creative.
It requires a humility
and it requires a detachment from self
in order to create.
When I'm writing, I'm blank.
I'm just staring.
The part of my mind that's active is not like me.
It's like this weird core function part
where I'm not aware of my personality.
I'm not aware of anything.
I'm just trying to put it together
in a way that I know works.
Just being there, being present.
As a press feeler, I'm a big believer
of just sitting there.
Even staring at a blank page.
Just putting in the time.
And sometimes it's not that way.
Sometimes it's an inspiration.
Sometimes I'll be sitting there at dinner.
I've got an idea.
My wife's really cool about that.
I have an idea and I have to just run out of the room
real quick and I write it down on my phone
and then I can come back.
Those are like little gifts
that you get sometimes from the universe
out of nowhere.
Some people rely only on those gifts.
I've talked to comics about it.
I can't come up with my best ideas when I don't write.
I'm like, no, I do too.
I come up with great ideas when I don't write.
But I also write.
You can do both of those things.
They're not mutually exclusive.
You mentioned fuck you money.
I feel like I have fuck you money now.
A year ago, at zero, I have fuck you money now
and probably my standards,
I don't need much in this world
but because also probably because of you
but it's 300 to 400,000 people
isn't every episode I do.
And that result is weird.
That's a successful television show on cable.
Yeah, it's crazy.
It's all you.
Yeah, it's hilarious.
That's amazing.
But at this point, that also resulted in a few money
in a sense that I don't need anything else in this world.
But so by way of asking, I've looked up,
you've inspired me for a long time.
Do you have advice?
You've done this on the podcast side of life.
Do you have advice for somebody like me
and somebody like me going on this journey?
Eric Weinstein is going on this journey.
Is there advice, both small and big,
that you have for somebody like me?
The advice is to keep doing what feels right to you
and do what you're doing.
Obviously, it's resonating with people
if you're getting that big of an audience
and I've listened to your podcast.
You're very good at it.
So just keep doing it the way you're doing it.
Don't let anybody else get involved.
What about you've connected,
I think you met Jamie at the comedy store.
I met him at the ice house.
At the ice house?
Well, I think I met him at the comedy store
but then we talked at the ice house.
I mean, what?
You'd have to ask him.
Did you think deeply about,
because you basically have nobody on your team
and so it almost feels like a marriage.
Were you selective about somebody to bring into your little circle?
Well, Jamie's exceptional.
He is. He's a special.
I mean, he might have grown.
I don't remember how he was in the early days.
Maybe you could say.
He was definitely better at it,
but right away he's exceptional.
He's got very little ego.
Yes.
He's not a guy who needs a lot of attention.
He's not a guy who overestimates anything,
like in terms of like a negative or positive,
like his interpretation of whether it's good things
that happened to the show or bad things that happened to the show.
He just takes it all like flat.
He's chill.
He's just cool as fuck and he's so smart
and he's so good as an audio engineer
and as a podcast producer.
He's the best.
But he's basically one of the only people on this whole team.
So how do you find, I mean, when you let people in?
I mean, I'm sure other people want to get involved.
Like why don't you have a co-host?
Like you basically kind of, well.
Well, here's the problem with a co-host.
Like when you and I are talking,
when we're talking, I'm tuned in to you
and I'm waiting to hear what you're saying
and I'm listening and I'm interpreting it
and then I'm calculating whether or not I have anything to say,
whether it'll let you keep talking,
whether I maybe have a question that lets you expand further
or whether I have a disagreement or like there's a dance that's going on.
Now, when there's another person there chiming in too,
it fucks the dance up.
It's like dancing, like if you're doing a dance with someone,
you know, like if you're slow dancing with someone
and then a third person's there stepping on their feet.
Sometimes it's fun.
Sometimes having a third person is fun.
Comedy podcast, sometimes it's fun.
Fight companions.
Yeah, debate structures.
But even then it gets difficult because people talk over each other
and also I find that without headphones,
it's way easier to talk over each other.
You make mistakes.
You don't hear it the same way.
When you have headphones, I hear what you hear.
It's all one sound
and the audience hears exactly
or rather I hear exactly what the audience hears.
Whether it's over here,
my voice is louder than yours because you're over there
and if I don't have headphones on, it's not all together.
At that point, one of the interesting things about your show
is you don't almost never have done
and you generally don't do remote calls
but you don't go to another person's location.
You have only done a few for small handful.
And just like with Sapolsky, he should do this.
We went back and forth on email.
I told him he needs to get his ass back in the studio.
He's working on a book.
I was a fan of his a long time ago
because I became obsessed with Toxoplasmosis.
I've reached out to him a long time ago
before he was willing to do it
but then I caught him in downtown L.A.
He was there for something else
and I just greedily snatched up an hour of his time.
Well, he doesn't get, I think,
some of those folks don't get how much magic can happen
in this podcast studio.
Bigger than anything they've ever done in terms of their work.
I'm not talking about reach,
but in terms of the discovery of new ideas,
there's something magical about conversation.
Somebody as brilliant as him,
if he gives himself over to the conversation
for multiple hours at a time,
that's another place where you've been an inspiration,
where I'm getting more and more confidence
of telling people, like in Elon Musk,
that a lot of CEOs are like,
well, he has 30 minutes on a schedule.
I'm like, no, three hours.
And then they're like, so some say no,
and then they come back.
Those people have started coming back to,
okay, we're starting to get it.
They start to get it.
And you're a rare beacon of hope in that sense,
that there's some value in long form.
They think that nobody wants to listen
for more than 30 minutes.
They think like, I have nothing to say.
But the reality is, if you just give yourself over
to the three hours, just let it go,
three hours, four hours, whatever it is,
there's so much to discover about
what you didn't even know you think.
Yeah, you have to be confident that you could do it.
And in the beginning, I just did it
because that's what I wanted to do,
and no one was listening.
So I've always been a curious person.
So I've always been interested in listening
to how people think about things
and talking to people about their mindset
and just expanding on my own ideas,
just talking shit.
And so we would have these podcasts
and they would go on forever.
And my friend Ari, I never let this die down.
Never let him forget this.
He was always like, you have to edit your podcast.
I'm telling you right now, you're fucking up.
I go, why?
He's like, because people are not going to listen to it.
I go, they don't have to.
Yeah.
I go, you listen to part of it.
He goes, just do it.
Just I'm telling you, trust me,
cut it down to like 45 minutes.
That's all you need.
And I'm like, no, no, I don't think you're right.
I like listening to long form things.
No one has that kind of time.
I'm going to do it.
I'm just going to keep doing it this way.
So stick to your gut.
No, he doesn't.
Listen, his are like two and a half hours long now.
That's great.
You won.
But you wouldn't like to say, I mentioned to you this before.
This is going to happen.
It's actually made a lot of progress towards it.
I'm going to talk to Putin,
but you wouldn't travel to Putin if you want to talk to you.
Putin is a dangerous character.
He's not.
He's not.
Have you ever seen the thing with Jerry Kraft
where he stole his Superbowl ring?
Yeah.
I think that was a little bit of misunderstanding.
Oh, really?
I think it's a little bit,
he just decided he's going to steal that Superbowl ring.
Kind of.
I think it was a...
Kind of.
He thought, can I see your ring?
He shows him his ring and then he puts it on
and says, I can murder somebody with this ring.
And then he walks off with it.
It's possible he did it as a...
He's a big believer in displays of power.
Yeah.
So like, it's possible he did that.
But I think he sees himself as like a tool
with which to demonstrate that Russia still belongs
on the stage of the big players.
And so he...
A lot of actions are selected through that lens.
But in terms of a human being,
outside of any of the evils that he may or may not have done,
he is a really thoughtful, intelligent, fun human being.
Like the wit and the depth from the JRE perspective
is really interesting.
I'm like his manager now selling...
He's a judo guy.
He's really good at judo.
I have seen him practice judo.
He's a legit black belt.
And not only that, he loves it.
Not just skill-wise, but to talk about it,
to reason about it, to think about it,
to MMA as well.
So, you know, it'd be a good conversation.
But you wouldn't travel to him.
Well, that's...
Hold to your principles.
So, that's the core of the advice.
Just hold to whatever...
I would rather...
Here's the thing.
There's not a person that I have to have on the show.
And I'm happy to talk to anybody.
I'm just as happy to talk to you
as I am to talk to Trump.
As I am to...
Probably more happy to talk to you.
As I am to talk to Mike Tyson.
As I am to talk to Joey Diaz.
I like talking to people.
I enjoy doing podcasts.
I enjoy talking to a variety of people.
And I schedule them based on...
I want to like...
I try not to get too many right-wing people in a row
or too many progressive people in a row.
I don't want to get repetitive.
I try not to get too many fighters in a row.
I try to balance it out.
Not too many comedians.
Comedians are the one group
where I can have three, four in a row,
five in a row.
Because that's my tribe.
You know, those are my people.
It's easy.
We can talk about anything.
It's a weird dance, you know?
And the conversations that you're doing on a podcast
are a strange dance.
And you want to, you know...
You want to not step on your own feet.
You want to make sure that you do it in a way...
Do the podcast in a way that's entertaining for people.
And it's...
Conversations are learning how to talk to people.
It's a weird skill.
It's a weird skill that took a long time for me to get good at.
And I didn't know it was a skill until I started doing it.
And then I just thought you were just talking.
I was just...
I know how to talk.
We just talk to people.
And then along the way, I realized like,
oh, and then when you talk to people that are bad at it,
you realize that it's a skill.
Like particularly, one of the things about my people,
about comedians is a lot of them tend to want to talk,
but don't want to listen.
Right.
Yeah.
So they're waiting for you to stop talking
so they can talk,
but they're not necessarily thinking about what you're saying.
You know?
And they're just waiting for their opportunity
or they talk over you or they...
And I try real hard not to do that.
And sometimes I fail,
but when I'm at my best, I'm dancing.
Yeah.
Ultimately, the skill conversation is just really listening.
Like really...
And listening and thinking.
Listening and thinking and being genuinely curious
and really having a take on what they're saying
and maybe a follow-up question
or maybe it's got to be real.
It's got to be authentic.
And when it is authentic and it's real,
it resonates with people.
Like they're listening and they go,
oh, like I'm locked in with the way you're thinking.
Like you two guys are in a conversation and I'm locked in.
You know, when she talks and you listen,
I'm listening too.
You know, when he says something to her
or when she says something to him,
like there's a thing that happens during conversations
where you're there.
Like you're listening to, and it's with me,
when I listen to a good podcast,
I feel like I'm in the room.
I feel like I'm in the room and I'm like the friend
that got to sit down and listen.
Like, oh, yeah, it's a great conversation.
You know, I love conversations.
So I love listening to them and I love putting them together.
And the fact that this podcast has gotten so fucking big,
it's stunning to me.
It blows me away.
I never anticipated it.
I never thought for a second that that stupid thing
that I used to do in my couch in my office
was the biggest thing I've ever done in my life by far.
Like people used to make fun of it.
Like there's a comedy store documentary that's coming out
and one of the parts of the documentary
is my friend Tom Segura,
when he first started doing my podcast,
he would be leaving and he would talk to Red Band.
He's like, what the fuck is he doing?
Like why is he doing this?
Like who's listening?
He's like, oh, some people like it.
And he's like fucking nonsense,
he needs time.
And like in the documentary it shows like 2,000 views,
like one of the early Ustream episodes.
It's hilarious.
And they don't just like it really.
They form a friendship with you.
It's like, even me, when people come up to me,
like the love in their eyes is kind of beautiful.
It's weird, right?
Yeah, it's like-
You're part of their life.
Yeah.
And I don't know, it's also heartbreaking
because you realize you'll never really get to know them back.
Like, because they clearly are friends with you.
Yes.
Yeah.
And it's sad to see a person who's clearly brilliant
and interesting and is friends with you,
but you don't get a chance to return that love.
My kids, it took them a while to figure out
what's going on, but people would come up to me
and they would say something like,
hey man, I fucking love you, thanks man.
All right, hey brother, nice to meet you.
My daughter was like six, she'd be like, do you know him?
I'm like, no, I don't know him.
She's like, how does he know you?
It's very weird conversation I used to have with young kids
when I'd explain, I'd do this thing called the podcast
and millions of people listen.
So now one of my daughters is 12
and one of her friends is 13
and he's a boy and he goes to school with her
and he's obsessed with me.
And so she's weirded out and she says to him,
I don't even think you like me.
I think you're just into my dad, you fucking weirdo.
She's gonna have that conversation
in a few stages in her life.
Like that hard conversation with a boyfriend.
Yeah, probably.
Yeah, that was the thing about men too.
This podcast is, my podcast is uniquely masculine.
I'm a man and I'm not, I'm also a man
that doesn't have to go through some sort of a corporate filter.
I'm not going through executive producers who tell me
don't have this guest on, don't talk about that.
We looked at focus groups
and they don't seem to like when you do this.
Like there's none of that.
And I just do it.
So I have a whole podcast where I just talk about cars
and people are like, I don't want to hear you talk about cars.
Well, good, congratulations.
You found what you like.
Here's good news.
There's 1500 other ones.
Go listen to the other episodes where I don't talk about cars.
You don't have to listen.
And it's not like your brand, you just are who you are
and that's what you do.
It's authentically what I'm interested in.
All the podcasts, whether I'm talking to David Fraver
about his experience with UFOs,
whether I'm talking to David Sinclair about life extension,
whether I'm talking to you about artificial intelligence
or what it's because I want to talk to these people.
And that resonates.
I like when people are into shit.
I've talked about this before,
like things that I have no interest in making furniture,
but I like this PBS show where this guy makes furniture by hand.
I love watching it.
Grassman.
Because he's so into it.
He's extending this and polishing that.
I'm not going to do that.
I don't give a fuck about furniture.
Furniture for me is function, like this desk.
Function works, but I love when people are into it.
And I'm happy that someone can make it
and they do a great job,
but I'm not interested in the task
or even the finished product
as much as I'm interested in someone's passion for something.
The passion that they've put into this, that shines through.
Last question.
I sometimes ask this just for to...
What is it?
To challenge, to make people roll their eyes,
to make legitimate scientists roll their eyes,
ask what is the meaning of life according to Joe Rogan?
I do not think there is a meaning.
I think there's many, many meanings of life.
I think there's a way to navigate life that's enjoyable.
I think it requires many things.
It requires, first of all, requires love.
You have to have loved ones.
You have to have family.
You have to have friends.
You have to have people that care about you
and you have to care about them.
I think that is primary.
Then it also requires interests.
There has to be things that stimulate you.
Now, it could be just a subsistence lifestyle.
There's many people that believe and practice
this lifestyle of just living off the land
and hunting and fishing and living in the woods
and they seem incredibly happy
and there's something to be said for that.
That is an interest, right?
There's something and there's a direct connection
between their actions and their sustenance.
They get their food that way.
They're connected to nature and it's very satisfying for them.
If you don't have that,
I think you need something that is interesting to you,
something that you're passionate about
and there's far too many people that get sucked into
living a life where you're just doing a job.
You're just showing up and putting in your time
and then going home,
but you don't have a passion for what you're doing
and I think that's the recipe for a boring
and very unfulfilling life.
You mentioned love, if you could just backtrack.
We talked about the demons and the violence in there somewhere.
What's the role of love in your own life?
It's very important, man.
That's one of the reasons why I'm so interested
in helping people.
I'm very interested in people feeling good.
I like them to feel good.
I want to help them.
I like doing things that make them feel like,
oh, you care about me.
Yeah, I care about you.
I really do.
I want people to feel good.
I want my family to feel good.
I want my friends to feel good.
I want guests to feel good about the podcast experience.
I'm a big believer in as much as I can
to spread positive energy and joy and happiness
and relay all the good advice that I've ever gotten.
All the things that I've learned
and if they can benefit people,
then I find that those things benefit people
and that actually improve the quality of their life
or improve their success
or improve their relationships.
I'm very happy to do that.
That means a lot to me.
The way we interact with each other is so important.
It's one of the reasons why someone gets canceled
or you get publicly shamed.
It's so devastating
because there's all these people that are negative.
All this negative energy coming your way
and you feel it as much as you like to pretend
that you're immune to that kind of stuff
and some people do like to pretend that.
You feel it.
There's a tangible force when people are upset at you
and that's the same with loved ones or family
or anytime someone's upset at you,
whether it's a giant group of people
or there's a small amount of people.
That has an impact on you and your psyche
and your physical being.
The more you can spread love
and the more love comes back to you,
you also create this butterfly effect
where other people start recognizing like,
oh, you know when he's nice to me,
I feel better and I'm going to be nicer to people.
When I'm nicer to people, they feel better
and I feel better and it spreads outward.
That's one thing that I've done through this podcast,
I think, is I've imparted my personal philosophy
in kindness and generosity to other people.
To correct you, you didn't do it.
The ideas that are breeding themselves through your brain
have figured out.
The ideas that are alive in the air
have made their way into my head.
Love is a more efficient mechanism of spreading ideas
they figured out.
Probably, man.
Probably.
As far as the meaning of life,
without that, you have nothing.
One of the biggest failures in life
is to be extremely successful financially
but everybody hates you and you're just miserable
and alone and angry and depressed and sad.
When you hear about rich, famous people
that commit suicide, you miss the mark.
You got some parts right,
but you put too many eggs in one basket.
You put too many eggs in the financial basket
or the success basket or the accomplishment basket
and not enough in the friendship and love basket
and there's a balance to that.
When I talked about the violence
and all that stuff, that to me
is me understanding, recognizing that
is me trying to achieve that balance.
It's to kill those demons
so that this boat is level.
Because if it's not, then the boat is like this
and then everything's all fucked up
and every time we hit a wave, things fall apart.
Balance that boat out, figure it out.
Know who you are.
Some people don't have that problem at all.
Some people, they could just go for walks
and they're cool as a cucumber.
I need more. I need kettle bells.
I need the bag.
I need the echo bike, the air assault bike.
I need some hardcore shit.
If I don't get that, I don't feel good.
So I figured that out too
and that makes me a nicer person
and that makes my interactions nicer.
It changes the quality
of my friendships
and my relationships with people.
I think we mentioned Neuralink.
I can certainly guarantee
that this is one of the memories I'll be replaying
20, 30 years from now
once we get the feature ready.
Joe, it's a huge honor to talk to you.
It's an honor to talk to you too, man.
I'm glad you came down here for this.
The first week of me doing this here
and it's very cool to have you always.
I hope you make Texas cool again
and do your podcast
another 10, 11, whatever, however many years
you're still on this earth.
All right. Thank you, brother.
Appreciate you, man.
Thanks for listening to this conversation
with Joe Rogan and thank you
to our sponsors, Neuro,
Asleep and Dollar Shave Club.
Check them out in the description
to get a discount and to support this podcast.
If you enjoy this thing,
subscribe on YouTube,
review it with $5,000 on a podcast,
follow on Spotify,
support on Patreon,
or connect with me on Twitter at Lex Freedman.
And now let me leave you with some words of wisdom
from Joe Rogan.
The universe rewards,
and gives you a lot of creative risk
and passion.
Thank you for listening
to this conversation.