The following is a conversation with Mark Normand, a New York comedian who has a way
with words that is often both dark and hilarious. Let there be a warning, dear friends, to proceed
with caution and to wear protection. You may, in fact, need it. He has a special on his YouTube
called Out to Lunch and a new special on Netflix as part of the Stand Up Season 3 series I recommend
you watch. This is the Lex Friedman podcast. To support it, please check out our sponsors in
the description. And now, here's my conversation with Mark Normand. I asked Tim Dillon about
Bukowski first, so let me continue on that tradition and ask you about something that
Charles Bukowski said about love. Are we rolling? Yes. Oh geez, no hello, no nothing. Nope. I thought
I was robotic. Bukowski said love is a fog that burns away with the first daylight of reality.
So Mark Normand, let me first ask you about love. What are your thoughts about love? You talk about
your relationship quite a bit. Do you think love can last? I do, but I think it's work. Everybody
wants love to be this prepackaged, perfect, euphoric thing, but it's like a good body.
We're all born with a good body, but you got to keep it in shape and it's the same with a loving
relationship. I think you, nobody wants to do the work. That's the problem. You talked about,
I think you told a story about being unfaithful to a previous girlfriend or something like that.
I think the story goes that you were like drifting apart. Who are you talking to? Bert
Kreischer maybe or something like that? Oh yeah, we were high school sweethearts, dated for like
12 years. So that wasn't love anymore. That was more like a relationship. It was comfort, it was
routine and we just slipped into that kind of married life autopilot world. I tried to break
up I think and it didn't take was one of those things. Our lives are just so baked in and then
I think I cheated and she caught me and it was ugly and then we went to therapy to try to work
it out, but it's much like a car that gets into a wreck. The door just never closed the same.
You know what I mean? Yeah. So what are your thoughts about the commitment outside of love
marriage? I think it's an antiquated idea. I think it's kind of silly and unrealistic and I think
we're coming out of that as we get all polyamorous and non-binary and quefy and all this stuff. I
think we're slowly moving away from that, but I think a lot of the ladies, more majority women
like marriage like the idea of it. Like I'm a fiance now or whatever you call it. I'm engaged
and I mean she is just going hog wild. She's loving it. She's got the dress thing, pick a venue,
flower and she's deep in whereas I feel guilty because I'm just like, ah jeez.
Is it planned already? What's the wedding? It's a squid game. I'm just living life.
It's planned. It's in New Orleans. I'm from there and it's next year. Are you married?
No, single. Virgin? Of course, yeah. I can't imagine. I bet you'd be great in bed. You're
ripped. You got the best hairline in podcasts. Yeah, I don't know. I haven't tried yet so we'll
have to see. All right. Well, let me know. Pretty big hog on you. Yeah, I could see you packing a
crazy, crazy tool downtown. That matters to girls? Apparently, yeah. That's all I hear about.
Okay, New Orleans. You grew up in New Orleans? Yeah, born and raised. Tremay outside the
French Quarter. Ever been? Yeah. I don't remember. Oh, you drink? Yeah, I drink. Of course,
I drink. I don't know. I can't tell if you have fun. No, not really, but Russian. I mean Russian,
of course, I drink vodka, all that kind of stuff. Oh, I drink Russian. Yeah, yeah. I don't know.
Beer was just labeled an alcoholic beverage in 2011. Fun fact. What do you mean? In Russia.
It was just drinks. It was just like apple juice before. It finally got declared legally as an
alcoholic beverage. Which means you can regulate it, that kind of thing. I guess so. Yeah. See,
that's where your brain goes. I just go, oh, these fucking Ruskies. I didn't even know there's rules
about drinking. It's good. I'm learning about Russia from you. So what's the difficult memory
experience from childhood in New Orleans that made you the man you are today? I don't know
if it made me the man, but geez, I had a lot of scuffles in the neighborhood. I was the white kid
in the neighborhood. So I was automatically the odd man out, the minority, the weirdo, the dork,
the dweeb, the honky. So just a lot of memories of getting slapped in the face by guys and just
having to take it because there's like five guys there. And they'd be like, oh, look, you don't
even fight back. And you're like, what am I going to do? Hit you and then get beat up by these guys.
So a lot of that stuff was a big bummer growing up, got robbed all the time, lost a lot of bicycles,
had a bicycle taken from under me. That was pretty brutal. These kids pulled up. They're
like 17 and I was 13 and I had a face paint on like I had a not black face, but I was at a summer
camp and I had a rainbow face painted on me. We were helping kids that day. So I let them put
paint on me. And so now I'm riding home. What a mark. What a, what a goober I am. I'm riding home
and these guys see me a mile away. I'm a sitting duck and they go, we can take his bike. He's got
a fucking rainbow on his cheek. So they just go, hey, you know, like cutting front of you. They go,
let me try your bike. I go, I'm good. I'm good. I knew what they wanted. And they go, let me try
the bike and then just push me and took the bike. The stuff like that was really shaping the insecurity,
the self worth. They did. Cause I've been mugged when I was younger too. Really? Yeah. Is it changes
your view of human nature a little bit? For sure. You go, wow, I didn't know people could be this
mean. It's cool. Yeah. Inconsiderate. I'm always worried about it. Did I fart too much? Am I
annoying? Am I pissing this guy off? But what a way to live. Just I want the bike. I'm taking it.
Fuck his feelings. For me, that quickly turned into realizing that that's just a temporary
phase that those folks are in. Like they have a capacity to be good.
Sure. For some reason, for me, that was a motivation to see can we discover, can we incentivize
them to find like a better path in life. Like I wasn't like all like, I don't know,
Gandhi about it. You know, of course I was pissed and all those kinds of things, but
I don't know. It seemed like just the kind of thing you might do when you're younger.
You hope. But this is adult crime, obviously. Yeah, I know. But yeah, exactly. And then it solidifies
and then you're beyond saving at some point. But it's like, there's always an opportunity to
make a better life for yourself, to become a better version of yourself.
Yeah. And I remember coming home crying with no bike and my mom, my parents are like,
liberal to a fault. Yeah. You know, where they were like, oh, well, they need it. They're poor
kids in the neighborhood. You're like, all right. But I also like, I have a bicycle that I ride
around, you know, and I also like to live in an area that's not just, you know, riddled with theft
and vandalism, but they were just like, ah, they need it. And then it was a moot point,
we just moved on. So I remember very young being like, all right, I got to figure my shit out.
Okay. So you said you were beat up quite a bit, like bullying and stuff pushed around. I was never
hospitalized or anything. But you know, you get a black guy here and there and a bloody nose,
stuff like that. And it was just the outnumbered thing. The violence didn't really bother me
because you're just kids, you're boys. Yeah. But it was the predatory, let's get them. You know,
we can take him down. He's, you know, he's an easy target. That's what kills you. Yeah. The mental
part. Yeah. Until you actually said I didn't realize that I've been in what do you call them
scuffles. And there was just one that stands out to me where, yeah. Let's hear it, Fadi.
Bring it on. And you do jujitsu and all that stuff, right? Yeah. You can see the guns through the
suit. You're like, John Wick. All right. All right. Well, I used to have, now you're going to
start making fun of me. I used to have long hair for, for like a couple of years. I was in a band
playing music and stuff like that. And there was, like most of the fights I've been in were
basically one-on-one, maybe a little bit like a little extra stuff, but not outnumbered. And this
one particular time, I've learned a lot of lessons, but one of them was, there was a fight started
between me and this other person. And then his buddies, I guess, were there. Uh-oh. And they,
as opposed to like breaking it up or letting it happen, one of them grabbed my hair. It's the
first time anybody grabbed, like used it in my hair in a fight, which I've since then realized
that that's actually a really powerful grip and a powerful weapon. Oh yeah. Oh, very vulnerable of
you. And then my head got pulled back and they pulled me down to the gut. Like I couldn't do
anything. It was so, I remember being exceptionally frustrated. Yes. Like that was the feeling like
I can't do anything here. I'm like trapped. And then they were just like kicking me and hitting
me and stuff like that. And the outnumbered part of it, because I always kind of remember the
trapped part because I just hated from a fighting, grappling perspective how like the feeling was,
this isn't fair. Yes, that's what it is. It's a deep, deep unfairness that you just can't,
you can't win. The mob wins. Yeah, the mob wins. Scary stuff. But it makes a man out of you in
a weird way. It builds character. You realize life isn't fair early and you go on from there.
So it's something there. And look at you today. They're probably eating out of a dumpster at
a Krispy Kreme and you're here. Got eight podcasts. You're doing great. You're talking to giant
Titans of the industry. No, I do remember returning home that night. I mean, that you said you were
crying. That's really formative. Oh yeah. That's the point in which you get to decide what do I
make of this moment. I mean, especially when you're younger, maybe it's not presented to you that
way, but like some of the greatest people in history were bullied in these kinds of ways.
And they made something of themselves in this moment. Like bullied by life in some kind of way.
It's like an opportunity for growth. It's weird, but like hardship even in small doses is like
an opportunity for growth. Totally. I mean, look at Richard Pryor, they say he's labeled as the
best comedian of all time, grew up in a whorehouse, watch his mom get plowed by these guys in the
middle of Indiana, I want to say. And just who had a harder life who would suck dick for drugs,
all this stuff growing up, beat up. And then the weird thing is, oops, sorry, that's my
birth control alarm. And then the whole world is like trying to get rid of bullying, but we
still do bullying, but now it's accepted bullying. It's very strange. So you're your proponent of
beating kids up, is that what you're saying? Yes, and sex with them. All right. But no, I just think
it's part of life and it's horrible. It's like rain. You got to have it. Look, a rainy day is a
bummer, you know, but you need it. And I think it's similar to that. What was your relationship
like with your mom, your dad? What are some memorable moments with them? What did you learn
from them? Good parents, the giving, thoughtful, a little out to lunch, you know, they were
workaholics. So it was hard to get a lot out of them. And my dad was kind of an angry dad.
I think he just had like a weird childhood and he's just trying to make it and he's trying to
provide, but it's hard. And we live in this horrible neighborhood and we're getting robbed
all the time. So life was kind of coming down on him all the time. So then he'll take it out
on you or whoever. He would snap. But great parents, they cared, they put us first. But there
wasn't a lot of, I don't know, you ever go to a friend's house as a kid and there's like a
picture of a ski trip and you're like, ski trip? What the hell is that about? It was a lot of that
and smart, very smart people, but I don't know how well they were at socializing.
So you never bonded with them in a deep human level?
Some body, but it rarely deep. Yeah, it was just almost co-worker. It cold out.
What? It's cold out, huh? Oh yeah, like that kind of stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I got you.
Get there a little bit, but my parents are done. I hope they never do this. But they would do a
thing where, my dad especially would do a thing where he would, he knew how to cut you down,
right to the bone. And so after a while, you're like, I'm not even gonna interact with this guy
because he can get you so well. One time we were at a Thanksgiving, some kind of family event
and all the cousins are there and I remember I was holding court. I was a young boy
finding my comedic legs in this weird tumultuous sea we call a family and I was killing and
my dad comes out when he goes, what are you holding court? And I was like, ah, and I felt
like I was this big. I just shrunk down. He just nailed it because in my head I'm like,
I'm holding court. Look at me. I got the whole room and he goes, what are you, what are you
holding court here? And I was like, who the hell do you think you are? And I was like,
he's right. I shouldn't be holding court. Who the fuck am I? I'm nobody. So uh, stuff like that.
Was he aware of that you think? He wasn't. He wasn't. I don't think he was, but
Do you give parents a pass when they're unaware of the destructive? Like, is it better when
they're unaware? Because it seems like that's the way. That's true. That's the way parents often
fail. Is they're not intentionally malevolent. They're just like coolest. Yeah. It's a bittersweet
thing because you're like, well, okay, he's not malicious. He's not trying to hurt me, but also
he doesn't know he hurt me. I don't know. It's tough because if he was trying to hurt you,
I guess that would be worse. So you're the fully baked Mark Norman cake at this point.
That's a shitty cake. Fruit salad. You know, the sense of self worth you mentioned.
I think in your comedy, there's a sense like you hate yourself. You think? I didn't know if that
came through. Shit. I was trying to hide that part. God damn it. I mean, when you like in the
privacy of your mind, are you able to love yourself or is it mostly self hate?
Oh, geez. What happened to this podcast? I didn't know I was on Mr. or Dr. Phil.
Dr. Phil. I thought we were going to talk about engineering and climate change and
rockets. We'll get there. Okay. Starts with love goes to rockets. All right. I like that. I like
that's a t-shirt. I mean, like, what's the question? Sorry. Do I feel love? No, no. I love myself.
Yeah. Yeah. So are you like this engine of being self critical of just being constantly anxious
about how the world perceives you, these kinds of things. Is this something that you just go
to for comedy or is this who you are as a human being? I think I don't want to explore it. I think
I get around it. You know, I tap dance around it, but I get it out a little with my act maybe
because I can't do it. I'm not doing it in real life. So I'll get out this no love,
not loving myself. I don't know who wants to love themself. Everybody always like,
you got to love yourself. And then when you meet somebody who does love yourself, you're like,
I fucking hate this guy. You hate the guy who's upset. I'm great. I'm awesome. Life is good.
You're like, ah, this guy sucks. I'd rather an insecure guy. So maybe I want to stay insecure.
Maybe I don't want to find this love for myself. Well, okay. So self love, like just appreciating
who you are or like appreciating the moment of being grateful doesn't have to express itself
by the guy saying, I'm awesome. It's more just like humility. He's just like walking calmly
through the world and just being grateful to be alive, that kind of thing. And just
and like, oh, being appreciative of all the accomplishments he made so far. I say all this
because mostly I'm extremely self critical and everything I do. And so and I kind of enjoy it.
I think it's a nice little engine that it makes it fun. It makes life fun because it's like,
if you hate everything you do, like you've done in the past, that gives you like, all right,
we can do better. Yes. But that's the key is making itself critical. Always trying to get better.
I could change this. I could tweak this. I can improve this. When you just go, I hate that I
do this. I suck. You just shut down. So that's the key is, is always being productive with the
with the criticism. Yeah. And the basics of life. I'm just like grateful for it to be alive.
That's nice to be a couple, a couple of that with two legs. Again, the hairline, the hog,
the muscles, the world, you got a good brain on you. I mean, you're lucky. You're in the top.
You know, most people are fat as shit at Burger King right now hitting their kids.
You're in a Ramada hotel sitting with a, you know, a low level comedian.
For the record, I ate McDonald's last night. All right, well, you're human.
Well, just so you know, this is not me defending. I'm not sponsored by McDonald's, but I mostly eat
meat and there's nothing wrong with the beef they have. It's actually one of the easiest ways late
at night. I think it's worse. I don't know if it's actually. It's actually rats. Yeah, you're right.
But hey, it's just meat. I'm a meat guy myself. They say in 20 years, we're going to look back
and go, okay, you believe people ate meat all because somebody like slavery.
Yeah, there's some ethical, difficult things with factory farming.
Yeah. So let's ride it out now. We still got it.
And now it's on record. Tom Waits says something about New York. You like Tom Waits?
I think he's underrated. I think he's got great, he's got a great, he's great equips and quotes.
Check him out on YouTube. He's got some montages and supercuts of him being hilarious.
What does he say? But I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy.
That was the one. That was the one that sold me. I was like, this guy's awesome.
Yeah. But his music, because he's just a genius musician. Yeah. Anyway, he was talking about New
York. I was walking around these, I'm in New York right now. We're in New York right now.
It's still a magical city to me. A lot of people are quite cynical about it, about the state of
things, but not like Michael Malis. Like a lot of friends of mine, they're just a lot of folks.
I mean, San Francisco and New York, there's something about the pandemic where people have
become quite cynical about the place they are and they tried to escape. It's interesting. I mean,
they're asking some difficult questions about what they are in life. They're having like a
self-imposed midlife crisis. It's good, I think, for everybody to go through this process. But I
think, I hope, New York reemerges as the flourishing place for the weirdos. Anyway, the
Tom Wade said, New York, of course, is to be in endless, surreal situations where a $50,000
gunmetal Mercedes pulls up in a puddle of blood and outsteps a 25-carat blonde with a $2 wrist
watch. He keeps going on. That's like bars. He's like a rapper. Yeah, he's good. But basically,
just the absurdity of it all. Lots of money, lots of weirdos, degenerates and dreamers,
and the whole mix of it. Do you think that's an accurate description of what New York is today?
Is there still place for the weirdos and just the interesting artists, the edgy, the comedians,
the creators, the entrepreneurs, as opposed to Wall Street, as opposed to rich folk,
and then hopeless folk? Yeah, I think it's definitely changed a lot. There's a tiny
corner for us weirdo artists. New York used to be where you went to make it as a painter or whatever,
a comedian or a singer, and there were all these dives and shit boxes and all these places you
could go, and now it's more pink berries and subway sandwiches and Chase Banks. It definitely
lost a lot of its creative edge. It's just money. Money keeps coming in, and now you see all these
comedians move to Nashville, Austin, Denver, whatever. It doesn't have the power it used to have
of like, you gotta be here if you want to make it. That's definitely gone. So that hurt the city
a lot. The city is way more soulless. When I moved here in 07, I mean not only did I get mugged three
times in the first year, but it was a hub of like, it felt like things were happening here. It was
an energy, it was electricity, and we still have the electricity, but it's also maybe just because
it's Times Square, there's Soho, there's Wall Street. So we got the staples, but there is a
little bit of that. It's almost like a marriage. Like, yeah, we're in love, but it's not as passionate
as it once was. That's how I would equate New York. What gives you hope? You're pretty hopeful
about it though. I'm hopeful just because I know it's magical, and I think it has to be. I mean,
it's the epicenter of America. Like, this is where the immigrants came, and this is where
the stock market is, and the entertainment industry, a lot of it is here. So I think it's
gonna happen, but something like the bottom has to fall out, and then people have to move back
here and all that. So something, the corporations are kind of fucking us. They're just buying
everything. Well, that's true for everything. That's true for everything. It's true for Austin
probably as well. People are just buying out land and all that kind of stuff. You always hear a
Hemingway and Dalí, and all these guys went to Paris in the 20s or whatever that was. Yeah,
I get it now. I feel like, why do these guys go to Paris? You know, why are these artists? And now
I get it because it's freer there. That's why Austin became like that Paris, where everybody's
like, I gotta get out of LA. I'm going there. But we came back from that. You know, the 70s
were wild, and 90s were cool. So maybe it'll come back. I'll just take a decade. Well, that's
how stories are told. There's always pockets of Paris within New York. True. There's just an
opportunity to let your weird flourish is there in New York, I'm sure. It's there. You got to
find it before it was front and center. What's your favorite thing about New York? What kind of
things just like? I mean, how long is this pod? I could go on. It's too much to put into one hour.
We've got other questions, but I love that one neighborhood is wildly different than the next.
I'm in Little Italy, and then you take four steps. Now I'm in Chinatown. I mean, and then the history
there and then the stories and the food and the culture and all that. And then you go 10 feet
over here. Now you're in Brooklyn, and this is insane as the whole of the world. And it's almost
like a little America in one city. And it's great. And just the fact that they pulled it off like
Fifth Avenue goes way up and you're like, there's a billionaire's house next to a hobo. And then
this is a black guy who's fighting with a Cuban guy and an Asian guy's trying to get in the middle
of them and the cabbies from the Middle East. And there's so many beautiful women here and there's
so many brilliant minds here and the pace is great. It keeps people moving. I mean, it just,
you can't beat it. And the city will fuck you in the ass too. Don't get me wrong. You landed JFK
and you're like, Oh God, I got mugged. My Uber driver called me a homo. I stepped in human shit.
Where the fuck am I? So yeah, it's bad news. But that bad news, it's almost like the bullying.
It kills you in a weird way, but it makes you stronger and you build more layers and layers
and layers. That's why some new guys, some hayseed from Milwaukee shows up. You've been here 10 years
and you go, let me help you out because you got to adjust. You're going to get your ass kicked for
like six months. But I know the ropes a little and I think you need a little bit. If the treadmill's
not on, you're not going to run. New York, the treadmill's on. So it just makes you run and it
makes you better and look at wears on you. You probably lose 10 years of your life living in
New York versus Indianapolis, but it's a better life. Have you seen 25th Hour?
Yeah, it's been a while. Spike Lee Joint? Yeah, Spike Lee Joint. I mean, at Norton,
there's a whole like monologue there about New York. Oh, that's right. But they're talking about
just, he has like a mix. There's like melancholy music, I think, or just a melancholy feel to
the whole thing, but there's an anger and a disgust with the city. But through the anger and the
disgust comes out like a love for the city. It's the same with Taxi Driver in New York. Oh yeah,
it's going crazy. Yeah. So like that, there's something about what is that? What is that grit
of the city that like pushes you down? Well, that's the beauty of the city is it's this tribal
human nature, like the sex shops and fist fights and racism and all this tension,
but yet it's the epicenter of technology and finance and sophistication on Fifth Avenue. So
you get that juxtaposition. It's kind of like in Boston. You go to Boston, they got MIT, they got
Hobbit, they got all this shit. And then they got the fishermen, the blue collar douchebags,
the Irish guys, the immigrants, you know, and you get that mix of like insanely smart with
wicked piss. And these, these two worlds, and that's, that's a good thing. It's like when a
black guy fucks an Asian lady, that's a good looking kid. You get a mix, you know, we're mixing
two totally different things. They're coming together and it makes it, it's like peanut butter
and chocolate. Peanut butter and chocolate. I've never tried that. What? Peanut butter. Maybe I
have, I'm talking about Reese's, man. Like Reese's, yeah, and yeah. Oh, it's the best candy. Yeah.
Without the fakeness of LA, without the, without the kind of, with the facade. Yeah, LA's tough.
What's the difference between LA comedy and New York comedy too?
I think one place you kind of go to make it and be discovered and be loved and one place you go,
you can, you can get all that in New York too, but I think in New York it's more of a,
a school, a boot camp of comedy. Let's make great comedy. Let's make original comedy. Let's
watch the other guys and gals who are at the show, at the clubs and learn from them and try to
hang out with them and, and absorb some of them. And in LA it's like, when am I on? I'm next,
get out of my way. I'm the star here. I'm a bigger star than you. Oh, this guy's actually a big star.
I got to out work. You know, it's just a lot of that instead of like, damn, that was funny. I got
to be that funny. Damn, I wish I had a joke. And look, I don't want to speak for LA comics because
there's, you know, Bill Burr and the Gelseneck, the brilliant LA comic, but they all cut their
teeth in New York. Just saying. Then they moved to LA. That's a good point. You know,
Ellie Wong, all these people, killer comics, but New York started in New York, moved to New York.
There is something about comics that's staying in New York for a long time though,
like Dave Vitell. Oh, you know about Dave? Yeah. Yeah. He wants to do this podcast.
He does? Yeah. I'm a huge fan of Dave Vitell. But it's like, you know, almost like he doesn't
want to make it. I don't know. I mean, you probably know him, but like,
it feels like you just, maybe it's romanticizing it, but you're like,
you almost just love the art of comedy of like becoming funnier, crafting the jokes,
becoming funnier than the other comics, like competing with each other kind of thing,
not over like money or fame or any of that. Just purely the comedy of it.
Totally. That's Dave. That's him in a nutshell. He's like that guy in the movies and the 80s
action movies where they're like, they go up to a creek in Montana and some guys live in a cabin
and he's sharpening a stick and they go, the Russians are coming. They're invading. We need you.
You're the best commando. And he's like, I gave that up, man. I'm done with that lifestyle.
They're like, but you're the best. We need you. And he has to suit up eventually. You know,
he looks at a picture of his dead wife and he goes, fuck it. I'm going. And then they,
you know, fight the Ruskies. But he's that guy. He just is gifted. He's like got a gift from Allah
and he's the best. Yeah. A lot of comics give him props. It's always surprising to me. I didn't
because it's surprising to me because he hasn't really made it like big. He did in the 90s.
He was huge. He had his own TV show. He was the boy. Yeah. Yeah. That show was,
that show was awesome. But I mean, like as big as I think he deserves to be. So I,
well, that's art. The mainstream shit is always the worst. It's like McDonald's versus some hole
in the wall. I know I'm shitting on McDonald's again, but it's good. And you know, certain
comics, we could name her good, but the delicacy is going to be less talked about and less
household namey than the mainstream hacky shit. Yeah. It's funny because he hasn't,
I think he was on Joe Rogan's show once maybe. Yeah. And he was with somebody else.
Jeff Ross? Yeah. He might have been with Jeff Ross. Oh yeah, because they did that like two
mics thing, whatever it makes. Yeah. Yeah. But he's the quickest guy. There's no one funnier.
Yeah. Yeah. Him and you, you're super quick. Your appearance on recent appearance on Rogan's
hilarious. Oh, thanks. You're just so fast. You're wrong with Ari and...
Shane Gillis. Shane Gillis. Yeah, that was fun. We're going back in January.
I don't know when this comes out. This has never come out. Neither will you. We're having fun.
Yeah. All right. So what does it feel like to bomb in stand-up comedy? Like to fail?
Maybe the psychology of it first. Like, just take me through it because we're talking about being
outnumbered in a fight, just being beat up. Very similar. By the way, this is like a no-eye
contact off. Yeah. Yeah. We're both uncomfortable. Yeah. It's great. It's kind of nice to be with
my people. But yeah. Do you have a sheet of paper to look at? I'm going, I got a good sweet spot
right there. Nice. Yeah. It's a nightmare, but it's part of it. It's the validation too is the
worst part. Because whenever you do comedy and kill, you can be a great comic, but even David
tell these brilliant guys, they feel like they're getting, you feel like you're getting away with
something. I don't have a day job. I'm telling jokes for a little bit. I'm talking about my dick
up here and they're fucking loving me and they call me a genius and all this. I'm talking about my
sack. Yeah. You know? And it's great. It makes people happy and it's funny, but that bombing,
when you bomb, your first thought is like, yeah, you're right. At first you're like,
fuck you guy. What? You don't like this shit? And then you just start going in. You're like,
yeah, maybe it isn't that good. Maybe they're right. I do suck. I knew I sucked. I should become a
mailman, you know? And it stinks and it feel, you feel alone and you feel like you wasted their
time and then you're like, what was I thinking? I could be a comedian. What the fuck? Who am I?
You know, Eddie Murphy. What am I doing here? So it's a lot of just spiraling out of horrible
thoughts, but I also love that it hurts so bad. Bombing fucking hurts because now, now
everybody doesn't do it. I think a lot more people could do comedy probably and figure it out,
but the bombing is so brutal that it keeps a, one time I went to Minneapolis, I was like,
this is a great city. I mean, the sun is shining. Why isn't this city like packed and they're like,
because the winters are so bad and we love it because it keeps everybody out. And I feel like
the same about comedy. The bombs are so brutal. I've had bombs where I'm in bed. I'm just staring
at the ceiling like, what the fuck was that? Like you have PTSD. I bombed in an arena once. 20,000
people. I did 30 minutes to silence. So it's not just like one joke fails. It's like, they start
piling on like it's irrecoverable. Yes. And one joke failing is very common. Like a lot of audience
don't even notice like that bomb. Cause you get, you know, you got so many jokes in a row. You can
sandwich a good one, then a bad one, then a good one. But when you bomb, it's almost like they chose,
we don't like you. Nothing you say will redeem yourself. And it's hard to get out of. It's like
being pulled down by your hair. You can't get back. I can't win this fight no matter what.
Can you like get him back by acknowledging like the elf in the room that like...
That helps, but they're still going to go. That was funny when he made fun of it, but
he sucks. He still sucks. He still sucks. That's the worst part. You're going, no, this is good.
You guys just don't like me. Just because you don't like me doesn't mean I'm bad.
Yeah. I like going to open mics a lot. Just listening because first of all, I think the audience
in the open mic, at least the ones I've been to is most I guess other comedians or like at least
people who don't seem to want to laugh at anything. And so I just love it because it's human nature
and perseverance that is best. Here's comedians. Like clearly this is mostly in Austin. They have
a dream. Like why would you get up there? Right. Maybe some weird, you know, New Year's resolution
bullshit. But for the most part, it's people who want to be comedians. Like a lot of the open
micers are people who have clearly have done this for quite a long time. Like at least a year or two,
maybe five years. And they're often not very funny. And the just bombing in front of an audience of
like 20 where they're just sitting there like almost like mocking them with their eyes or maybe.
And I don't know. And they still push through. They still, they still like as if they're doing an
arena and everybody's laughing. They still, they still got that energy trying almost like to an
audience that doesn't exist. Like an audience of their dreams. Because I guess you have to do that
to keep the energy of the act going. And it's just so beautiful to watch them try it.
And also the, what happens, open mic, I don't know, five minutes, whatever they do,
they, you know, walk off and that walk back, you know, offstage. And like you can't,
who do they look at? Like what do you look at? Do you make eye contact with people? Do you look at
your phone? You look at your feet. You just zone out. You kind of kind of go white. You know,
you just hear white noise and go out. It's tough. But you got it. You need a little delusion to
be a comedian to get into it. It takes a little bit of delusion. Like you think you can do this,
you know, you got 10 years ahead of you of hell and you're up for this. And you know, most comics,
we see a horrible crowd and we see our friend bomb and we go, yeah, he's bombing, but I'll get him.
I'll get him. And then you don't get him. But that's, that's human nature too. It's like,
ah, they don't like him, but they're like me. And you need a little of that to keep going as
a comedian. But you don't want too much delusion because then you're a psycho. But you need a little.
Well, the psycho could be good for a comedy. That's true too. Love psychos.
I mentioned you offline. That talked to Elon and we talked about doing stand-up that he's
thinking maybe do a few minutes of stand-up. Say, if you need a coach, Elon, I got you.
Well, maybe you should move to Austin to coach him full time.
Hopefully he can fly me in. So what advice would you give to somebody who
wants to try and do five minutes? Like the early steps of trying to go to an open mic
and say something funny. Well, that's the irony of comedy is, I don't know if it's irony, but it's like
the beginning is the hardest part. Usually the beginning is the easy part. Hey, I'm playing
this level of Mario. I start to jump over one Koopa Troopa, whatever. And then the end is like,
Jesus Christ, I got 30 guys coming at me. Comedy is the opposite. The beginning is like,
it's a gauntlet. It's just obstacles. And like you said, open mics. I watch these famous comedians
on Netflix and you go, this would all bomb an open mic. They're killing in Radio City.
This would bomb an open mic. That's the weird part. So it's almost like you have to go through
hell just to get to the promise land. And I would say, rehearse the shit out of it because
you're going to get frazzled up there. Everybody thinks, oh, this is good material. But you also
forget about the other part of delivering it, having confidence, being likable, having timing,
having a cadence, figuring out who you are, figuring out what the audience thinks you are
or how they perceive you. Because you can go up there and say all this, but they go,
why is the guy, he's clearly gay. Why is he actually not gay? Now they're not listening to
the joke. So like, you got to know how you look. And it's just repetition, repetition. And bombing
is not failure. That's what you got to remember. I mean, look, if you do a killer hour and then
you take it to Netflix and bomb, you fucked up. But bombing is not failure. It's just data.
It's going, oh, okay, I got to retool that. That didn't work. Something's wrong there.
I missed a word there. So you got to treat the act almost like
ingredients in a cooking, in a dish, like, oh, I put too many eggs in. Take an egg out.
You got to treat it like that. And look, when you pull a bad cake out of an oven, you go,
I fucked up, but it doesn't hurt your feelings. But when you bomb and fuck up, it hurts your
feelings. So you got to factor that in too. Your feeling is going to be hurt. And just
almost be a robot and just keep going towards that open mic. You know how scary an open mic is?
Bombing sucks, but bombing in front of other comedians is way worse because they know what
just happened. And they could have saved you and they didn't. So it's way worse.
And they're going to be your quote unquote friends for this journey.
Yeah, no, these are evil people. Most twisted fucked up hurt people.
Can you tell, like, in those early days, let's just talk about that, like the open mic level,
that a joke is going to be good on paper? Like, I'll give you my experience because
maybe you can be my coach in this particular moment.
I feel like Larry Nasser.
That's fun, huh? Joking, everybody. I hope nobody takes it seriously.
There's, I now have an amazing team of folks who helped me with editing and they're now
currently sweating. You got to leave that one in. That was quick. Yeah, that's pretty good.
I'll eat that one. That was good.
All right. So, you know, going in front of an audience, just even to give a lecture terrifies
me, which I've done, but open mic, I mean, that to me, perhaps that's why I like going
to open mics and listening is because I just, it terrifies me so much that idea of going up
there and bombing. I mean, it's scary and to do even like one minute to be honest is scary and
five minutes. I'm also watched enough open mics to realize that five minutes is a long time.
I mean, it depends on your comedy, but if you're doing fast stuff, five minutes is a really long
time. Oh, it's eternity. I guess with a long story, two is a long time because if the story is not
worth, you're building up to something. If the story is going to fail, you just spent all that
time telling the story that completely went flat, got nothing. I guess if you have a series of jokes,
you can at least try to recover and like do the Mitch Heidberg thing where like, all right,
I'll cross that off. Yeah. Well, I'm able to, like I've tried to write a few things and I'm able to
tell that it's really bad. Well, that's better than most. Most people's egos kick in and go,
no, this is good. No, see, I'm able to introspect that. Like it seems funny. I mean, I guess the
thing I'm looking for is original. Like there's easy stuff that you think is funny. But to me,
originality is the thing you should be looking for because then that's what's actually
becomes funny. Or rather, if it's original, even if it bombs, that feels like more
a beautiful art creation that you did. Like at least you swung for it. Like you did something
unique because even with open mic, your first five minutes, there's so many, just go to enough
open mics, you'll hear like all the, there's like a list of jokes that you just go to. First of all,
you can make fun of the fact that you're at an open mic, that you're like doing this the first
time and so on. You could do a lot of stuff where you make fun of your appearance in some way and
so on. But like, yeah, you could do that. That takes actually, that's way harder than people
realize to do it in an original way. To present who you are as a person very quickly enough to then
put that person down in front of everybody else. So you have to reveal the audiences like that
because they go, he knows what we're thinking. Yeah, exactly. But do it again in an original way.
And so like when I'm trying to write stuff, not that I've tried long, it's like 30 minutes,
but as enough to see like, oh, shit, to write something original is really difficult.
It is. But do you got a bit? Anything? No, you didn't write any one line or anything?
For this? No. Well, just in general, ever in your life, ever written a joke? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Oh, okay. No, but I don't have anything in my mind. So the the the jokes that I've written
have more like, for some reason, my mind goes to like dark places. So, you know, like,
and not actually dark in the Mark Norman dark, because you go really dark to where it's like
almost absurd. Yes. My natural inclination is to go to like, a dark historical like place like
Hitler and Stalin. Yeah. And almost to go to that place. And then talk about something absurd
there. So like, don't go like, like all the way, I don't know, I don't want to give examples
because it'll be clipped. But the but the Mark Norma style, look it up. He has a special on
his YouTube. That kind, I want to almost explore the dark aspects of human nature more kind of
connected to actual historical figures. That's the that's the inclination, like, I don't know,
nature's metal, the Instagram channel that explores like the darkness of nature, like
something there. See, that's good that you already know that you've kind of gotten to the core of
your comedy already. And that's interesting. Step ahead. Yeah, I can hear I mean, with most
things I do in life, I can like hear the music from a distance, like in myself, like, okay,
if you have anything, this is the direction it'll be without actually knowing exactly all the
steps. And that's a nice motivation to be like, all right, well, if you do this for a long time,
maybe you'll have a chance to get there. Right. But you have to, that's where the
it's a feature to be super self critical, I think. Yes. But then that's why it's fucking terrifying
to walk up to a stage, stand there, and probably forget everything. Yeah, that's the other part
nobody thinks about just goes right out of your head, you go fight or flight. It's ugly. My first
years were horrific bombing, horrific stammering, horrific not remembering the punchline, like,
you gotta even maybe you got a setup going and they're kind of on board and you're like, ah,
how's that camera I camera goes and you just hate yourself. It's a nightmare. But you've
already kind of, maybe if you haven't done stand up or whatever, but you kind of know your voice.
And that's, yeah, that's pretty advanced. So you're not trying to be somebody else. I guess,
yeah, just for having done like podcasts and lecture and so on. That helps you've embarrassed.
I've already done some of the work of the standups do, which is embarrass yourself in front of
others for prolonged periods of time. Yes. Yeah. So I'd done that without actually developing the
funny. Right, right. But maybe the funny just is not that difficult to develop. No, it's super
difficult, of course, but I mean, maybe the essential work of a standup comedian is just
the embarrassment of like finding who you are. Yeah, that's a part of it for sure. You know,
in the beginning, you're like, water bottle, what's funny about water bottle? I'm a funny guy,
I can make this funny, but that ain't, that's not it. You know, it's, it's your shit, your shit,
like your dark stuff. For me, I tend to gravitate towards dark, but in a weird way where, you know,
people will say like, Hey, don't objectify women. But then they go, Caitlyn Jenner is beautiful.
And you're like, well, wait, I know something's off here. Why can you objectify her, but not
the supermodel? So what's going on there? And I like to play with that. So I have this joke where
I say, Caitlyn Jenner, oh, oh, women go, Caitlyn Jenner is beautiful, beautiful woman. I go,
well, you look like her and they go, fuck you. And you're like, there's a lot of truth there.
But I like exploring that kind of, oh, you're trying to get one over on me or you're lying
to yourself or what are we doing here? And I like, I like that kind of comedy.
I don't see color. Well, I'm black. No, you're not. You know, that's fun because you're, you're
lying. Yeah. Okay. So like big time comedians, it's just yourself don't like to think of yourself
in this way. But yeah, this is like where you over philosophize comedy, but
it seems like comedians. Don't say important. Nothing worse than a comedian who thinks they're
important. Yeah. So I was going, I was trying to find as I was trying to say these words,
I realized how cliche it is and how uninteresting it is. So I'm going to just,
but there is something. I'm worried this whole thing is uninteresting. I'm like,
who cares about comedy? There's like six comics on the planet. Nobody cares. Okay.
I trust you in the, in the pilot seat. You know what you're doing. You got, you got listeners.
They've tuned out long ago. Dan Carlin on here, huh? Is he around?
Yeah. We're just going back and forth on Twitter just now. He's a huge fan. He was on here before
he'll be back. I've been actually really trying to volunteer myself aggressively with Dan Carlin
for like a Russian episode where I can speak Russian. I, there's, there's certain documents
saying, I talked with Jaco about this too. Certain things. I mean, I just love the challenge of
bringing Russian documents that I can read in Russian and it can translate and can try to capture
the depth of the writing in, in the Russian language and communicate to the American audience.
So much has lost in translation. Like there's so much pain and poetry in the Russian language.
It's just connected to the culture of every language, not every language, but many languages
are uniquely able to capture the culture of the people. I mean, in some way that are the
representation of the culture of the people. And so Russian is definitely that represents the full
history and culture of the 20th century with all the atrocities, all the, all the broken promises,
all those kinds of things. Norm says Russian literature is, it's the most tapped into human
existence than anything else. Norm. McDonald. Yeah. Big, big Russian literature guy,
Dostoyevsky, all that shit. It's funny that there is a gap with comedians too. There's a
culture of Russian comedy, like stand up comedians that are told. Yeah. I don't know these Russians.
I mean, I don't know today. I mean, more from the 80s and 90s. And so there was a.
Yakov. That's all I know. That's not, so there's like, of course, that's, that's.
I've never seen that offended. No, no, no, it's not offended. There's a different,
there's, there's a, there's like the kinesons and the, there's the edgy.
Is that Russian? What, what do you mean?
Wait, I thought you said there was Russian comics.
Yeah, Russian. I mean, I'm comparing them.
For style.
I'm giving you, I'm giving you like a style of darkness, like that's the kind of people that
kind of challenge. They give again, this is to how important comedians are, is they give a voice
to people where in the Soviet Union, you really can't like express your opposition to the government.
And so comedians are exceptionally important there for just, just, I don't know,
channeling the anger, even when sometimes it's not the actual opposition to the government,
they're just channeling the anger, the frustration with the absurdity of life. Like,
you know, when there's a shortage of food, shortage of jobs, the, the, the absurdity of
the bureaucracy, like the top heavy government, just all of that can only sometimes be expressed
with like dark absurd humor. And that actually, why there's a culture of that kind of humor,
you know, you gather on the table with vodka and all you can do is just talk shit and just
be offensive, say horrible shit, ball bust. I mean, I make school shooting jokes and people go,
how do you do that? I'm like, well, maybe that's how I deal with it. Yeah. You know,
like how come I gotta, I gotta empathize the way you do. Maybe we're different.
All right. So now let's skip the whole open mic thing and crafting jokes.
Oh, that's tough.
Carowax said, one day I will find the right words and they will be simple. When do you
know the joke is done? It's perfect. You're somebody that does like really sharp, like fast
jokes. Well, so like there's somebody, I don't know, I don't know who you see yourself in the
same school as like, had your, your, your darker and faster than Hedberg, I think, in terms of like,
just, I don't know, the turns you take it.
Thanks. I appreciate it. I think I got some Norm McDonald and maybe,
Norm, that's right. You know, obviously Norm, but Chris Rock was huge for me. Chris,
old like nineties, Chris Rock was like, I didn't know you could do jokes like that. I always loved
George Carlin and Groucho Marx and Bill Murray. There's so many different types of comedy,
but when I saw the bigger and blacker bring the pain, I was like, oh my God, this is like,
it hit me. So that was big. And then Norm's just like the funniest guy on the planet.
So him, him being the smartest guy in the room, but acting dumb was great. So,
yeah, Chris Rock has that way of cutting to the, the bullshit, which I mentioned earlier. I like
that cutting through the bullshit kind of style of comedy because you kind of go, oh, I'm not crazy.
That's what I thought too. I was too scared to say it, but I thought that and he's saying it in a
room of people are laughing. Maybe I'm not an idiot. So that helped me. So it's observational,
but not Jerry's sign for observational. It's like going to the darker thing within society.
But I like him too, but seeing it, doing it about stuff like in your life, society.
Yeah. Race, gender, government, politics, all that kind of stuff. Exactly. Exactly. Sex,
human emotions, jealousy, whatever it is. That, that's the good stuff.
How'd you feel when Norm passed away? That was a bummer because he was, you know, what 61.
And I just didn't see it coming. And I just, I've watched so many hours of his stuff.
And I've met him and he's like, he was like this comedic bar like, Hey, we got Norm. You know,
there's so much shit comedy. Then you see Norm and you're like, this is next level. This is
savant type shit. And then to lose him is like, Norm had 20 more years at least of just
content and content and thoughts and his point of view. And that's, we'll never get that. And that
sucks. Yeah. There is something about artists like Jimi Hendrix dying too early. It's like,
are you wonder? What was next? Yeah, what was next? But then part of it is like,
you know, it all ends for all of us. And it's like walking away early is,
it's kind of admirable. It's almost like I did a pretty good job. Yeah. I'm good with that.
And especially the way he did, which is not telling anybody. I know,
nine years his best friends didn't even know. And in this world of like,
victimhood and I need clicks and I need people to love me. He could have, he got, you know,
canceled and yelled at and in trouble. And he could have pulled that cancer card and he never
did. I mean, the integrity on this motherfucker. Did you get a chance to interact with him? Like,
how often did you meet him? I met him once at the comedy seller and we chatted for five minutes.
And then he went on and did the letterman set that he did. He was running the letterman set.
And sweet guy, nice guy. I didn't know him that well, but I mean, he's just brilliant.
And I also love a brilliant guy who does stupid stuff. That's a fun,
fun little combo there. Like silly guys who are actually brilliant also,
you know, like Louis CK is a brilliant comic and he'll do a joke about farting on a kid.
And you're like, that's great that he still finds farts funny. And he's also this comedic genius
guy. I like that. And doesn't really acknowledge the genius. Yeah. Yeah. I like smart people.
They're silly. Yes, that's a good combo. Like you said, Elon is silly. Yeah, that's great.
Because we taught, we teach kids like, Hey, put that down, stop that, quit cutting up,
quit horsing around. But maybe that's some kind of sign of brilliance there.
Yeah. Being like childlike and silly is a kind of wisdom. I feel like those people are way wiser
than the people that no offense to me wear a suit and take themselves way too seriously.
But you got a spark in you. A little bit. You got a little, what's the word? Not elf.
Imp. A little imp in you. Give that a go. You know what imp? Yeah, let's look at this. It's like a
little, is that a Tolkien character? Imp. Yeah, might be. Imp is the European mythological being
similar to a fairy or a demon. He called me a fairy. Well, okay. Similar to a fairy or a demon.
I feel like that's a big leap. Big leap. Yeah, that's not a great info bio there. Frequently
described in folklore and superstition. The word may perhaps derive from the term
imp, spelled with a Y. He used to denote a young grafted tree. It's a little mischievous. You
got a twinkle. You're this serious buttoned up guy, but there's a twinkle. There's a twinkle.
And the audience can see the twinkle, and that's why he resonate, I think.
Oh, sorry. Deep analysis by Mark Norman, psychological analysis. Okay, but then back
to the crafting of the joke, you said Chris Rock and Norman Donnell, like what for you?
How do you know when the joke is like done? Are there some jokes when you're like,
are proud of like, wow, that's, that's well done. Yeah, the joke is done. It's a tough
question because there's so many different kinds of jokes. It's what we call a chunk,
which is a big idea with a bunch of jokes in the middle of it, and then a big crescendo at the end.
Or there's a one liner, or there's a tag of a joke that's also a joke. So the joke's coming
different. Like I have a joke where I say, I met my girl in that Jewish app. What's that Jewish app
called? PayPal. Nice. That's the hell, that's the reaction you want from the crowd. But
it's a fun turn because you say your thing and then I hit you with a misdirect. And that's what
a joke is. A joke is basically me saying something that makes sense, but you didn't see it coming.
And that's a perfect example of that. So that joke took forever to figure out, by the way,
you have to go to different services like PayPal. What's funniest? Exactly. And I figured PayPal
is funny because it has the word pay in it. Yeah. Venmo, it's also not really a good word. Venmo,
PayPal, it just hits better. Yeah, PayPal is funnier somehow. It's funnier somehow,
and that's the beauty of comedy. There's a weird little magic into it. You can get technical all
day and formulaic, but there's still that little bit of fairy dust that you don't know why this is
funnier. Or imp dust. Imp dust. Yes. For the why. Okay. So you know what joke is done when it kills
and it is a roundness to a joke when you feel like this is buttoned up. This is done here.
Yeah. It's simplicity, the right word there. Yeah. Is it like you're chopping stuff away or
you're adding stuff? Like what does it feel like? Simplicity is always the best angle. I mean,
you can get real high concept with a joke and still make it work, but the simpler, the better.
I saw Dave Chappelle on stage once and Chris Rock and Demetri Martin were in the back
watching in awe. And Dave Chappelle, I can't remember the joke, but he said something about
sex or women. And Demetri Martin goes, ah, it's a little easy. And Chris Rock goes,
that's why it's good. And I remember hearing that as a young comic like, ah, I'm getting this like,
you know, comedy lesson right here for these two Titans. And so that was fun. Simple is key.
So the easy is okay. That's such a weird, I think I remember reading or hearing Eminem say
something about maybe the song Slim Shade, one of the songs, he's like, I knew it was going to be
good because it got like really repetitive and annoying very quickly or something like that.
I mean, that's the sort of the music equivalent of it's too easy. Like if it's like super catchy,
as a musician, you might get very quickly bored of it. Or like as you're creating it, no, it's
too, it's too easy. It's like, there needs to be some more complexity to it. But I like complexity,
but the best guys who are the ones who make complex shit look simple. Like you ever heard
that Ben Franklin story where he's talking to his friends, his friends like, I'm going to start a
hat store. So he puts a sign out says hats for sale $12. And Ben Franklin looks at it goes,
well, you don't need the $12 because you know, all they need to know is that you got hats for sale.
He's like, all right, so he loses the $12 makes a new sign hats for sale. And he goes,
you know, you don't really need for sale because it's a business. People can put that together.
So he just goes, all right, it makes a new sign says hats. And then Ben Franklin's like,
you know, you don't really need the word hat. You can just put a picture of a hat.
And he made a new sign, which is a picture of a hat and it like helped the business or something.
This is like some old wives tale or whatever. But I think about that all the time when I'm writing.
I thought this was going to like, there was no sign. It went like super like,
maybe that could work too. What like as a comedian. So I'm a fan of yours. I enjoy,
I really enjoy you in conversations like, because you're now getting nothing out of this.
This is like emotion. You're tough not to read cold inside.
I mean, just the quickness you have. Obviously, you're also a great stand-up comedian.
What's your favorite medium to shine in? So you have a podcast yourself, an excellent podcast.
You're often a podcast guest. Yeah.
Which is always fun to listen to how you're going to deal with the different people.
You're great on Rogan. What do you enjoy most?
Podcasts are great because you can stretch out a little more. You can breathe a little.
You know, with a stand-up set, I like to be like boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.
But podcasts are great because it's conversational. So you can be, it's almost like you're being
funny with your friends. Whereas the stage is like a, this is a piece. This is a presentation.
But I think the podcast is great, but you don't get the reaction. Unless the host is laughing,
you can't hear the guy in his car in New Jersey driving to work on, ah!
Every now and then I'll read a comment like, I spit out my coffee when you said this and I'm like,
but it's not immediate. You want the immediate. So stand-up will always be number one, but there's
no better feeling than killing in a room of people who don't know who you are. Strangers,
you're in the middle of nowhere. You left your wife at home. You left your kids. You left your
house. You're in the middle of bumfuck, Dickville and murdering for these hillbilly, nobody,
whatever it is. And they're slinging their beers and cheering you on and they carry out.
And you fuck some fat lady and you leave and you get back to your hotel and you go, holy
shit. What was that? No one will ever know about it. Just lost in the ether. That's the best feeling.
Yeah. Killing in obscurity as Bill Burr would say.
Yeah. This is one of the things that sucks about giving lectures
at universities or giving lectures in general is when you look at the audience,
several hundred students, they all have a bored look on their face.
My face now probably looks bored, but I'm actually excited to be talking to you.
But there's something about a comedy club. Maybe this is the contingent of laughter,
but it gives people the freedom to just laugh, to remove that facade. You don't have to pretend
you don't care. If you care, you can show it and you can have fun with it. Probably liquor
is helpful too. It helps for sure. And that's why comedy I think is so popular right now,
because HR is up our ass. We're scared of old tweets that might come back to haunt us.
What did I say on that interview? Even people at offices are like, I put something on Facebook
in 1999 that was about fat tits that I liked. Should I get rid of that? Even people say like,
there's no cancel, whatever. There is something in the air right now, and that wasn't there before.
It's the video. I'm a Karen, I got caught at Trader Joe, whatever it is. People rat on each
other now. Everybody's tattletailing because they want the clicks. It's a horrible society we've
crafted. But stand-up comedy gets you to come out, and now people do it at stand-up shows too,
sadly, but it gets you to come out and let that inhibition down. Because we're all human,
we've all had the fucked up thoughts like, man, that guy's fat as shit. It doesn't mean you hate
the guy. It doesn't mean you hate fat people. It doesn't mean you're fat shaming. But you can't
say that at the office. You can't go, Bob, you're fat as shit. You'll get fired for body shaming.
But at the club, you go, that guy's fat as shit. The crowd goes, he is fat as shit.
And it's this weird cathartic thing because all we do is tamp shit down. It's kind of like you
ever meet a girl who's like all prim and proper in the bedroom. She's like, put a lamp up my
ass, you know, whatever it is. It's because we got to get it out. We're all repressed in some way.
So I guess what you're saying is comedy is important.
Yes. Callback. Well played, sir. What do you think about Austin? What do you think about the
comedy scene, Austin? We'll talk about LA in New York. What do you think about what Joe's trying
to create there? So I should say that the reason I moved to Austin, I have this dream of, it wouldn't
be funny if I said this dream of becoming a comedian. Yeah, that's true. You know, I would
say you can hear the music in the distance. I, you know, I have this dream around robotics and
artificial intelligence, whether it's a company, whether it's something else that I was just pulling
me to do. I actually wanted to move to San Francisco and then all my friends in San Francisco said,
no, it's the wrong place. At this time, the cynicism there is just not conducive to like
taking big leaps into the unknown, excited about the future kind of thing. And Austin was that
for me in particular with Elon Musk, but also just the energy that everybody had,
including Joe, the excitement about the future. I don't care if Austin burns to the ground and it
actually is a complete failure. Being excited about the future seems to be like optimism about
the future. It seems to be the thing that actually makes that future happen, makes a great future
happen. So it's always cool for me to see like Joe super excited about creating like a culture
in Austin, like a making it a comedy hub. Like I don't want to overstate it, but he, I mean,
I think he really believes it'll be a very big place for comedy in the United States and general
in the world. And so just even believing that, that's powerful. Like you start to make it,
you start to make it happen. That energy is there. Anyway, so but that's for me from just an outsider
watching the fun. I should also mention for less of an outsider, more insider in the martial arts
world, partially probably because of Joe, I'm not sure, like John Donahar, Gordon Ryan, the B team,
all those folks, those are, that might be gibberish to you, but those are like some of the greatest
grapplers and martial artists of all time. So it's also becoming this hub of martial arts.
So the whole thing is just beautiful. Anyway, what are your thoughts about that scene?
Well, there's a lot here, a lot of things to mention. One, I think Joe did do that to a degree,
you know, like all these people with Segura lives there now, a lot of comics live there.
He's opening clubs, other clubs are opening. I think it's happening. That's the other thing is
people go, everybody's moving to Austin, Austin's the new hub. And then they look at their watch
and they go, five minutes went by, nothing changed. It's going to take years, you know,
but everybody wants it now, now, now. What awesome. There's no industry there. You know,
there's no Netflix, whatever. And you're like, yeah, I know, but it needs a minute. You can't
just do this overnight. So people forget that. So it could happen huge. Just give it some time.
I mean, he's opening a club. I went and saw it. It's incredible. Like, it's so perfect for comedy.
It's every detail. It's incredible. But so it could happen still. I do think
where there's a little biting off more than they can chew with Austin, because it's not that big.
So like a spread. I mean, yeah, it's not big. And the infrastructure is not quite there to support
it. But it has a lot of, you know, comparing from the tech side, for it has a lot of land
to expand into. So it might become this, like you basically establishing, it's kind of like
New York. You're establishing these whole neighborhoods. And you have the freedom to do
that because there's a lot of space on all sides. Yes. Okay. So that helps. So again,
maybe some time. I do agree with this, that new hope that's kind of built into human beings of
like, let's go to America. Let's go to the utopia. We even have it with space. Let's go to Mars. We
got to see what's over there. And it's just red dusty bullshit. But you still got to go.
So I'm with you on that about this new hope, this new land. And I think that is beautiful.
And I think there's a lot of haters. I think there's a lot of naysayers who hate change,
who hate anything new. And then I think you got to go, Hey, that hurts. That sucks. But
blow me, dickless. I'm trying something. You're a loser. Stop hating on me. I mean,
how many people hate Elon Musk, you know? Yeah, it's hilarious. I mean, there's some of the criticism
on Austin would be it's like a fad. Like a lot of people are really, are really people are excited
about Austin. And somehow that's like, it's like one Green Day became famous, you no longer want
to be a fan of Green Day. But to me, like that's Austin was already a cool town. Like every comic
five years ago, it's like, Oh, I got Austin this weekend. I can't wait. Yeah. So it already had a
buzz. But some people think maybe the buzz was the cool part. The fact that it was like this
off the beaten path city. And now I get to visit it and then leave. But I think it could still be
this comedy tech booming place. It just will take some time and people want it right now.
Well, on the tech side, it's, it's already there. It's, it's, it's getting there very fast. So,
I mean, Elon's really pushing that with the factory. It's just a huge number of people
are moving there with jobs. Like you're already starting. And then the opportunities to launch
new companies is just incredible. I guess it's not right now. It's like within months, within
a year, that kind of thing. But like, it's an opportunity to just start to build shit in a
new place. And it's cool. It's kind of like, you know, go to Mars. It's like you get to start over.
Yeah. And I like the hope aspect. I think that's huge for people. And I'm, I'm all for it. I hope
it works out. I don't know if it will, but I don't know anything about economies and city
planning and all that shit. So it might be too early to say, but I hope it works.
He's still talking about Austin or Mars? Austin. Mars is, there's nothing there. There's no
vagina there. There's no food there. There's no water there. I don't know. It seems, I get space
travel. I think it's important, but I, I don't know. Mars is really going to move the needle.
So what are your thoughts about Elon Musk and SpaceX and launching rockets into space?
I think it's all good because you could say, Hey, we could just feed everybody. And I was like,
Yeah, that's true. By the way, these guys give a ton of money to like philanthropy
shit that nobody cares about. By the way, you know, it's weird. Like he could feed Nigeria and
with pocket change of his and you're like, well, maybe he has, you know, like I heard Bill Gates
gave back so much money to save 6 million lives, but that's a reverse Holocaust. By the way,
that's pretty good. What have you done? You're a barista. So, uh, you know, I just think, uh,
I think space travel is good because you learn about the place you're living in from going to
space. It kind of helps you learn about this more. You could say, what's the point of going to
this other there? But it does help, I think. Yeah. Doing difficult things in the engineering space
seems to be a way to develop like as a, as almost like an accident, as a side effect
of doing a really difficult thing in a team of brilliant people. You develop things like the
internet and you could argue that the internet maybe is not so good for society. No, I'm just
kidding. That's good and bad. Yeah. But it's like a pull up. You're trying to get your bicep going,
but hey, but before you know, you got decent forearms, but you weren't working on the forearms.
You wanted to buy, but you got the four. And I think that's kind of what space travel is.
I like how this like pivoted into, uh, to a workout routine advice.
Trying to get an analogy going here. All right. They work pretty well.
I'll take it. All right. What are your thoughts about since I'm a robotics person and be curious
to see like what, um, do you think about the space at all about first of all autonomous vehicles
with a Tesla autopilot and a Waymo self-driving car? I'm not sure if you're familiar with all the
autonomous vehicles and so on. So those are robots on wheels. And then there's also legged
robots. So next time you're in Austin, you get to meet some of the legged robots I've been working
on. And I find those kind of, um, a fascinating way to explore the nature of intelligence in our
computers, but also explore our own intelligence and also explore our own, um,
like what makes us connect to other living beings, whether it's dogs, cats, or other humans. Like
there's some magic there that does beyond just intelligence. And I like, when I have the robot
dog, there's some aspect to it that, I don't know, brings me joy in a way that a dog does,
in a way that a good friend does. Yeah. And I'm not sure if that's some kind of anthropomorphism,
like where I'm projecting my hopes for this, what this thing is, but it's kind of built in. I mean,
it's just a source of joy. Maybe it's connected to the fact that there's just like a loneliness
within all of us, within me. And it's just nice to have other things in your life that move,
that recognize you, that kind of thing. I mean, I suppose it's nice to even just have a plant.
Yeah, it is. Plant goes a long way. You see a guy with plants in his apartment, it changes the
apartment because they're alive. You got a water room. You got to put sun on them. So yeah, I
think there's something there. And I think you can see people's reactions when you show them
advanced technology, like these dog robots or these robots that dance and shit, people are like,
what the fuck? Like it hits home in some way, whether it's fear or you want to fuck them clearly,
whatever it is, but it does connect with you in some way. So I'm with you. And I think this is
why I don't think robots will take over. You always hear that robot, they're making them too
advanced. They're going to wipe us out, blah, blah, blah. If robots get at human emotions,
that is scary because they could get mad at us and kill us and they're stronger. They don't need
sleep. They don't need food. They don't need water. They don't get jealous. But if they have
emotions, then I think we can dominate them because who knows emotions better than us?
We've got thousands of years of evolutionary emotional bullshit. We can go, hey robot,
I heard you, your wife fucked that black and decker, huh? They're going to crumble. We can bully them.
Emotionally manipulate robots? Yes, that's when we'll win. Right now, they could kill us. They
could just, we'd all die. Then we shoot them back. That's no good. But if they do get emotions,
then we can go, hey, you look like hell. What is that? A rusty bolt? Hey, you're dropping some
oil there. You're a loser. I think we can win if they do get emotions. This goes back to your
father being able to undercut you with a single word. You're right. Yeah. So we're the creators
of the robots and then the robots will just, you would say the exact thing where the robot
would be like, that son of a bitch. And then it goes back to his hole and just sits there miserable.
Right. Yeah. Hardware looks more like software to me. You can't get it up. Yada, yada, yada.
Yeah. But I'm not worried about robots. And I think self, what do you think about the self-driving
cars? Is that just wiping out the horse and buggy? Isn't that just progression of technology?
Yeah. So I don't know if you've driven it in a Tesla, for example. I have. I've, I wrote in the,
the past drive it. Yeah. There's several stages in that. I think it's the problems way harder
than people realize. And for quite a while it'll just make driving more pleasant. It'll make it
less stressful. It'll take over some of the boring bits for you and make it easier. Like
there's something that happens actually when the car is driving for you in the following way. Like
it's, it's staying in the lane. It's keeping distance to the car in front of you. Maybe it's
changing lanes. It allows you to relax a little bit. Like you become, you still have to be alert,
but you become like a passenger and you get to like take in the world. I mean,
somehow that's more relaxing without making you necessarily like bored more. It's energizing
more. So I just think it makes the driving experience more pleasant. But when you actually
fully automate cars, when you can just completely tune out and start reading a book or go to sleep,
that might change society like in ways we don't even understand because you'll have, I mean,
you'll probably change the nature of roads because the cars, because now you can be super
productive. And so it no longer quite matters to you as much how long it takes to get from
point A to point B because you're not wasting that time. You just continue working. It's like
public transit that comes to you. Exactly. And so there will be maybe less roads and bigger roads
and it will just change the nature of how we get from point A to point B. I think you're right.
But then couple that also with the fact that we seem to be more and more comfortable existing in
the digital world. Yeah. So like maybe we want to go outside more and more. We'll just interact
with each other virtually. And I don't mean Zoom meetings. I mean, just in other ways that's more
fulfilling than a Zoom meeting. Sure. But then maybe not because there's something deeply
uncompelling about Zoom meetings. Podcasts that are remote, unless they're super information
dense, at least to me as a podcast fan, kind of suck. They suck. There's no connected. It goes
back to the dog thing. With the Zoom, there's no connection. Yeah. And we're not, you know,
I don't understand why we're not even making eye contact. I know. But it's something there.
It's in the room. There's pheromones and that's like out of our understanding probably. It's
some kind of weird biological, you know, you ever have Cheerios in a bowl? The Cheerios tend to,
they tend to go together. You see a cluster of Cheerios. They're never really hanging out on
the other side. And that's kind of how people are in real life. I wonder what the physics of that
is. So they come together and they stick. It's something with molecules. Yeah. I don't know
how camera what it was, but it was fascinating. And I think that's how people are. And I think
you try to write a TV show or craft a movie with your team, Zoom, nothing there. It's like
phone sex versus penetration. One day you'll learn that. I know nothing of either the,
I look forward because I think there's a phone sex Netflix documentary that this is show or
something like that that is really popular. I don't want to go watch. At least I can learn about
that. Okay. I could say I need some links. On the internet. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, self-driving car,
I think it's just inevitable it's coming and these truckers are going to have to figure something out.
Yeah. I mean, that's an under understood industry actually because there's not,
there's a lot of trucking jobs and people don't want to, well, people don't want to actually
take them anymore because it's such a difficult job. So it won't have, or a lot of people believe
it won't have as big of a negative impact as folks anticipate. There'll be other automation,
I think they'll have a huge impact. Yeah. For sure. I mean, you already see it in McDonald's,
you go to the beep, beep, beep. Why do you want to get yelled at by the heavy set woman of color,
you know, for making a bad order when you can just, you know, hit the screen.
But those interactions, I think, are human. I mean, that's part of life. So it is scary taking
away everything. How long till we're not fucking? That's common too. Yeah. Then there's going to
have two types of people. Are you a fuck in real life or you a digital fuck person? I'm a digital.
I like real fucking. Sorry, we can't date. That's common. Well, there's also the reproduction side
of sex, which is like with genetic engineering, you'll be able to specify a little bit of details
. I talked to Jamie Mertzo about that, like where you can specify like, you know,
it'll start with like, I want my child not to have like a high likelihood of diabetes or something
like that. And then you get to specify like intelligence, you get to specify those kinds
of parameters until you're like basically trying to create a perfect human and you lose some of
the magic of the flaws that make us who we are. Yes. And, you know, I'm pretty sure in the full
lineup of humans, like, so let me give you some information. I'm sure you researched this thoroughly,
but a male of the human species of the Homo sapien produces 500 billion sperm cells in a lifetime. So
that's all, some more than others, that's all uniquely genetically unique humans that you
could produce. So even across those 500 billion you can select. And so mean like a board some
or no, you can choose which of them you want. I mean, just imagine all the genetic possibilities
that are there, like all the possible like you won the race. Yes. Shocking. This is the winner.
All the 500 billion. You have to imagine what the competition was. Oh, just tarts all day long,
handicap. Well, so it's not actually the fastest sperm or like it's I think a lot of his timing
in luck. What it seems like there's actual papers on this and I've actually been reading them. I
hope so. So it's not just like the fastest sperm to the egg. Okay. There's a timing thing. So you
were just lucky. All right. I believe that. So it's interesting to think about like once you're
able to specify some parameters of what your child is like, how that changes the nature of
even just like the intimacy of two humans getting together and making creating together a child.
Yeah. I mean, it changes it. It's almost like, I don't know, it becomes like a factory
line of some kind. If you don't meet naturally. Yeah. If you don't meet naturally and then you
don't and you get to optimize your child, then it's yeah, then it's something like you have to
consider utilitarian type of things like what's good for society and it'll probably be regulation
about what kind of children you can have and not like your child cannot have an IQ below this or
above this or something like that. Your child cannot. We already kind of do that with VIP clubs
like you're kind of ugly or women go, Hey, he's not tall enough. We kind of do it a little.
Yeah. Especially sexually. Yeah, we do. Can't get on the roller coaster if you're this short,
whatever it is, you know, we do it in some capacity. But here, this would be like
fully transparent and to a degree that it's hard to imagine. Like the way we currently do it,
you can at least get around it. Yes. You can at least like trick your way onto the roller coaster
even if you're short. Right. Or the fat guy can get rich so he can get laid. You know, there's other
ways. At the risk of asking the totally wrong person this question, what advice would you
give to young people today in high school and college about how to have a successful career
or career that they're proud of or maybe have a life that they're proud of?
Well, first of all, you got to be, you got to want a life you're proud of. Not everybody has
any integrity. A lot of people just want short money. I want to feel good, look good right now.
I want to do Molly. Boom. I'll feel good, you know, but you should space it out. It's almost
like saving money so you can use it later. Nobody wants to save money. What do they say? Like 11%
of America actually has money saved? A thousand dollars or some shit? It's wildly low. Everybody
wants it now, now. What do you call it? Immediate gratification. I think the key to happiness and
satisfaction is working for something. Even if it's, it's like a baby. If you could have a baby
in five minutes, if a woman, you got to, you jizzed in her and she had a baby, oh five minutes,
boom, newborn, healthy. I think you'd be more likely to throw it away if you could make it that
quick. It's the fact that you spent nine months backbreaking the labor, the lactating, the ripped
placenta and the hymen or whatever the fuck. That's what makes you love it. And I think it's the same
with comedy or, or making money or whatever. Look at these kids who, who like child stars,
they all become heroin addicts at like 22 because they've just, their sensors are burned out,
their pleasure sensors. You didn't have to earn it. I think earning it is a big part of life
and always try to do better, try to do more, try to learn new things. Hey, I'm bored, life sucks,
life, play the piano then you chuch, but you, you won't do it because it takes effort and, and
failure and all that, but that's the good part. And I know it's hard to see. So I think that's,
that's a good, good key to life is work hard at something you care about and then love the result.
The, the hard work, the journey is actually way more important than just getting something.
Everybody wants to go on Amazon. I got a package. Then you feel good for 10 seconds and let's go
on Amazon again. And then you just, it's just a dumb cycle of you being disgusting and gluttonous.
So work for it. Everybody wants to take steroids and just, I'm buff.
What'd you point at me? Well, I'm just saying Russian or what?
Well, I saw the, the Icarus, but no, I'm not saying you're on Roids. I'm just, you'd be way bigger,
but I'm just saying, you know, work for something. And then I would also, young people eat shit early,
eat shit early. I know a guy who kind of got canceled or whatever, and he had an out early,
but he tried to get by and he tried to ride it and it all came crumbling down. But if he had
eaten it early, like, yeah, I fucked up. I did that, whatever it was, he would have, he would
have just kind of been, been shit on for a month and then it would have gone away. But now it's
his whole identity and that sucks. So eat shit early. And I know it's hard to see what I mean
early. I'm in the present, but look ahead, look back. This time will pass. I mean, look at high
school. High school was the biggest thing in our lives. Oh my God, this exam. Susie Q hates me.
The football player beat me up. I'll never recover. Now you don't even think about high school. It's
just a blip in your dumb life, you know? And that's what this is now. This will just be a blip.
So remember that and work towards something and work hard and care about the result. If the result
isn't good, try it again. And failure is not always bad. Failure, we look at failure as this
end all be all. My life's over. I failed, but failure is really just learning. So that's something.
So in summary, eat shit early and eat shit often. Yes. All right. Mark Norman. Eat ass.
That's escalated quickly. All right. I have a list of random questions for you. What activities
make you lose track of time? Have that go into that zone. You have this happiness contentment
about you that you just truly enjoy. Yeah. I think good conversation. Like I'll sit at the
comedy cellar with friends, maybe a little whiskey's flowing. And when you're really just vibing and
inhibiting. You can do it. What is it? Inhibited. Inhibited. Uninhibited. Uninhibited. When you're
just vibing and you're uninhibited and you're saying crazy shit and you're laughing and you're
not worried, am I seeming cool right now? Am I seeming likable? When you're just you 100% and
it's all coming out of you and then they're saying stuff and you go back and forth and you feel that
excitement. Oh, they're talking, but I want to say my thing. And you know, you get all keyed up.
I love that. And I look at my watch. I'm like, fuck, it's three in the morning.
This is, we've been talking for five hours. So I love that. That makes the time fly by.
Also, I bought a, speaking of self-driving cars, I bought a 1973 BMW car and it's classic and it's
stick shift and it's grizzly and gritty and rusty and it's a bucket of bolts, but I love driving it.
Bucket of bolts. Yeah. You're in Tom Waits, your poets. Have you taken like a long trip anywhere,
like road trip in your life or with this BMW? Not with it. It's pretty new, but I will. It's a new
1997. Yeah. It's new to me. And it just, it goes in the face of everything we're doing now.
Everything is digital. Everything is automated. Everything is hands off. Everything is delivered.
And this is the most hands on thing in the world. And I am dialed in, man. I got the
tachometer. I keep an eye on that. Oh, I made, I put the wrong gear and shit. Oh, it's about to
stall. Put some gas, put some clutch. And it's all just brainpower and staying in focus and all
that. And it's the opposite of tweeting and texting and watching porn or whatever. So
I almost needed that in my life. So I bought this car just to have this little exercise.
I hope you don't mind that I'm just trying out random questions that I wrote on you that are
completely, they're like, completely insane. I'm a guinea pig. Just in my face. Bring it on, baby.
This would be edited down to five minutes. If everyone on earth disappeared and it was just you
left. What would your days look like? What would you do? That's tough because I'm already an introvert
and I try to avoid people mostly. Like I like a one on one, but crowds and all that is tough.
So basically unchanged. Yeah. That's what I was going to say. But then that's the irony is I would
be so sad to not talk to anybody. So it's this weird, bittersweet thing. But I don't know what I
would do, man. I guess it's kind of like when you're hungover, you just go into the primal survival
mode. I got to get food. I need water. I'm horny. Jerk off. You just go, you're not like playing
the piano or painting or at the gym. So I think I would just go and urges, man. Primal urges.
Find food. Store food. Am I safe? Make weapons. Build a shelter that I can't get attacked in.
I would go all survival mode. And then once I maybe realized if I was safe or not,
there's no wild roaming dogs. I would start exploring and maybe somehow get a vehicle
and I would try to expand and that would be it. And I maybe had journal. Exploring what to
try to find new experiences. New life. If there's other, maybe there is another guy out there.
Oh, so always there's a possibility. Yeah. Hope. And then maybe there's a better place I could live.
Let's find that. And then moving on. Maybe there's more food over here. So yeah, the hope would
drive me. But it would be bleak and sad and horrible also. So what you're saying is you
really want other people to be there so you can hide from them. Yes. Well said. All right.
What's the item on your bucket list that you haven't done yet? Think about something
you'd be very upset if you died and you haven't done. Well, I'm terrified of having kids,
just because I'm a child myself and I'm selfish and lazy in a way. So kids are like,
this is your whole life now. This is it. You got to not let this thing die. You got to love it.
You got to raise it. So kids scare the shit out of me, but I also feel like if I don't have them,
I'll regret it. Well, you've seen so many people like you who are fundamentally changed by kids.
Yeah. Like it's a source. It's a source of like a deep source of happiness,
even though you didn't anticipate it. Yeah. So you like you penciled it into your bucket. Yes.
Yes. It might be on there. Okay. You want kids? Yeah. Well, I want kids. I want to get married.
I want to have kids. I kind of, I don't like choice. So in the following way, I appreciate the
value of scarcity and the power of scarcity. Like I don't like the modern dating culture.
It's not some religious thing, whatever. I just like one girl for a long time,
or at least swinging for that always, like swinging for the fences.
Well, you could be swinging right now. I mean, you're-
There's a different use of the word swinging. Sure. Sure. But I'm saying you could be,
you look great, you're handsome, muscular. Thank you. You get the job done. So I feel
like you wouldn't leave without an orgasm on her. Yeah. But I just like to, you know,
above furries. I like to dress up as animals. And I just have trouble finding others who like
the same. They're out there. I could show you some chat rooms. You're also my coach for the
internet. Okay. What are you most afraid of? I guess on Unlived Life. I'm always a big fan
growing up of like wild guys, you know, like these Teddy Roosevelt's who would go out and hunt
lions and like bar fighting guys. I was obsessed with Hunter S. Thompson types. And look,
this is what I love about guys like, who's a good example, like Hemingway. Hemingway was the
manliest guy. He had the rifle and the elephant gun and the whiskey and the riding and the women
and the fistfights. But people forget it. The other side of that coin is I'm sure he was in a
lot of hotel rooms weeping. I'm sure he was lonely as fuck. I'm sure he had some wicked
hangovers. I mean, he killed himself for Christ's sake. So obviously he was dealing with something.
So the key to me is having this adventurous life, living to the fullest, doing crazy shit,
scaring yourself, but also not killing yourself. Like also not hating because I used to party a
lot hard. I used to bang a lot of gals and the flip side is like, this girl hates you now or
you got herpes or you're hungover or your mom is like, where are you? You never call me anymore.
You're like, oh, my mom, let ties go with my mom. I got to connect. So there's a horrible side
to the party animal. The Keith Richards, we don't see, is not pretty. I mean, he's already weird
looking, but he's partying, he's smoking, he's living, but there's another side of that coin.
And I think the key to life is living that fucking crazy awesome badass life and also
having some meaning and a little bit of, what's the word? Not just not killing yourself, not
going sad, not being depressed. There's a medium there, a sweet spot. Does that make sense?
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So taking big leaps and having way, grabbing life by the balls,
but at the same time not crushing the balls that metaphor work at all.
Perfect. Look, evil can evil. We all know him. What a badass, fearless. Oh man, what a cool
dude. He's got balls of steel, but he's also lived like the back half of his life in a fucking,
you know, Marka Lounger where his legs were made of steel and he couldn't see straight
and his dick didn't work. So you know what I mean? You've got to have a balance,
but you still want the balance. I'm willing to take a little bit of shit for a little bit of fun,
but you don't want to go too hard. You got to still risk it. I mean, Hunter S. Thompson,
it didn't end well, but it was quite a ride. Quite a ride. What small act of kindness were you
once shown that you will never forget? That's a great question. I just wrote these for the
guinea pig. You're the guinea pig. That's great. That's a keeper. Okay, that's a keeper.
This is where like workshopping questions here. All right, I'll take it now. You're open biking.
Yeah. This is your version. Let's see. There's a couple of ladies in high school who were kind
enough to handjob me. That was nice, which I really appreciate. I don't think women know how
much that means to us. You know, women are like, oh, I'm not a piece of meat or whatever. And you're
like, I know, but if you just gave me a handjob, it would make my world. It's like telling a kid
he's smart or loved. See, most people mentioned like a math teacher middle school that would
inspire them to get into science. Give a shout out to the hand.
Well, that's part of it. That's not the nicest, but I'm just saying that goes a long way.
Let's see. Kindness. That's a great question. I want to give you a good answer. I got lost
when I was like six. I was walking around my dad and I zoned out and went away. And next thing you
know, I don't know where I am. I'm in a neighborhood. This old guy finds me crying on a lawn somewhere
and he goes, uh, come inside and he tried to call my parents and nothing came of it. Eventually
they found me after like nine hours. Cops were there. The FBI is out there. Fucking helicopters.
And I guess, you know, that's nice. This old guy took me in for a couple hours and just sat me down
and kept me safe. That's something. Yeah. Oh, how about Enis? My transvestite nanny.
Very kind. He, uh, did you hear about this? No. Okay. We had this transvestite nanny. He was
like a drag queen, but it was in the 90s. So it was weird. It was new. And, uh, my bike got stolen
and he, you know, my parents like, yeah, what are you going to do? They're poor kids, you know?
And he was like, fuck it. Let's, we're going to go get that bike. And I was like,
this guy's in a wig at high heels. Big black guy. And I'm like, uh, what are you going to do?
You know, it's gone. And he's like, no, we're going to go get it. So we got in the van and drove
around my neighborhood, saw the kids fucking with the bike, you know, five street tufts.
And, uh, he goes, all right, you want to come out or should I just do this? And I was like,
you do it. I'm terrified. What are you crazy? And he got out of the van in full, you know,
heels and wig. And he went up to these guys and they went off. Oh my God. Look at this
fucking guy. All this shit. You know, it's the nineties and he just stared at them long enough
to where they were kind of like, all right, well, I guess we're going to fight you now.
And he goes, uh, that's not your bike. And they go, what are you going to do about it?
And he puts his hand on the middle of the bike and they didn't do anything. And he just picked
it up and said, that's what I thought. Put the bike over shoulder, slid the van door open,
threw the bike in and we drove off. Somebody stuck up for you. Yeah. And in a, I mean,
he could have got, I mean, they had tools. They could have fucking tuned him up two seconds.
That actually like takes courage. Oh yeah. Real courage. And then that, the reason you do
an act like that is that makes a kid like you feel like there's somebody on your side.
Yes. That's possible. Someone on your side is big. Is big. That goes a long way,
especially when they have the risk of getting their ass kicked or their job taken away or
whatever it is. Now we're going to get philosophical, maybe a little bit emotional.
Would you rather lose all your old memories or never be able to make new ones?
It's a tough one, but I'd go easy answer, make new ones.
But don't you think all the shitty things that happen to you?
Oh, so my hard drive is wiped clean. It's not, is it memories or is it how every memory affected
me too? I mean, this is a very- What do they go hand in hand? I think the reality about memories
is you replay them often. You go back to them even when you're not aware of it. You really go,
you go back often like that. And they change. You change them too. Yeah. You change them to suit
your understanding of the world. Yes. And so the dark view you have, both the hope and the
cynicism you have about the world is so deeply grounded in the memories that you're basically,
I would say if you erase all memories, I think you're really starting over with maybe the wisdom
of how the world works, but not so much of your personality is gone. It'd be interesting how
your comedy would change. Maybe you would have a good sense of timing. You would have a good
sense of the writing process maybe, but like- Now you're making some good points,
but let me ask you this. Let's say I go to Lake Cuomo with my girlfriend.
Now, I keep my old memories. Let's say I go to the Tuscany with the lady.
I just won't remember that. Yeah, but you get to experience it in the moment.
Okay. You get to enjoy it. Can I look at a photo of it?
Yes. But what the hell is this? Yeah, exactly. Fascinating.
It's exact. The rules are pretty simple. Yeah. I think everyone knows how the rules go.
Yeah. Well, I was going to say start new ones,
but then I realized I wouldn't be who I was without them. That's what you're saying.
So I guess I'd keep them because I am 38, so I've gotten a good chunk out of life.
Yeah. And let's be honest, how many years do you have left?
I know, right? I got eights.
Is it better to have loved- Okay, this question is ridiculous.
Is it better to have loved than lost or to have never loved at all? It sounds cliche,
but there's a question. Definitely better to loss.
So you enjoy the ups and downs? Yeah, that's life.
For sun and rain, baby. I kind of like both the whole thing, the loss.
Every time you lose something, it really makes you distinctly realize how much you valued it.
Yes. When I'm sad, when I'm feeling alone and I'm sitting there alone at home,
and I wish I could hang out with somebody, that's like a realization how awesome people are.
Yeah. So it's like the missing.
We don't have a lot of that in life anymore because we can have anything we want immediately.
So the missing has gone away, which again, drives down the joy of having it.
So I think you're right. You need both.
So like you said, you have a terminal condition not much, many years left.
Do you think about your mortality? Do you think about that?
All day, every day. Are you afraid?
Not afraid because it's inevitable. So it's more like, how are we going to handle this?
It's like the winter is coming. Let's stock up on some fucking nuts.
But the existential nature of it, the fact that this ride ends, what the hell are you doing any
of this for? Satisfaction, cappiness. Short term. But there is a presumption there
that it kind of goes on forever. I think if you truly think about the fact that it ends.
Your brain almost shuts it down.
Yeah. There's some kind of protective switch that just goes off. I mean, that's why the Stoics
encourage people to meditate on death because it somehow reorganizes your priorities.
It helps you like, holy shit, this ends make the most of the day.
Yes.
It's just a nice thing. But still, you can't quite comprehend that the thing ends.
Little things too. People go like, oh, we got a layover between our flights.
It's an hour. What are we going to do for an hour? It's like, maybe what are you going to do
for an hour? You're going to kill an hour. Let's kill. How are we going to kill this hour?
This is part of your life. You're just trying to get rid of it. You're just trying to kill it.
That always blew my mind. Like, hey, fuck it. Let's go hit the airport bar. Let's get a candy bar
or something. Anything with bar. But it's just, you've got to live. I hate this. Like, how are
we going to burn? Oh, the bar didn't open for 15 minutes. What are we going to do?
Well, we got 15 minutes. The world is our oyster.
Yeah, I make the most of it. And like you said, in modern day, actually, the boredom is a gift.
When you're waiting for something, that's a gift. You get to be with your thoughts.
Those are the same thoughts you'll have when you're on your deathbed. There won't be,
you won't be scrolling TikTok on your deathbed. I hope not, Jesus.
You'd be a little more, actually, maybe you would be. What a sad existence.
Because it would be a good, like content creators would be like, oh, I'm dying. This would be good
content. Yeah, I want to be able to sure film the exact moment. It goes,
last words. I wonder what my last words will be. It's a good way to like end the account with a bang.
Yep. I like that. Well, you know that you've ever seen that meme where the old guy in bed,
he goes, I wish I had tweeted more, you know, and then he dies. It's so true.
Could be the future. What do you think is the meaning of life? I don't think there is one.
Everybody always throws that out there. There isn't a meaning. I think we're here,
we're lucky to be here. I think there's no afterlife. There's no heaven. That's all
shit we tell ourselves to feel better. And I think you got to just, it's like saying,
what is the meaning of this food I made? Well, it's just you enjoy the food,
you try to get the most out of it. You built the food, you prepared it. So just get what you can
out of it. Don't die and try to make it last as long as possible. Yeah, but you look at earth,
it's like four billion years old. And life started early on, like simple cell bacteria life,
like a one billion years in, and then it started like having lots of aggressive interaction
eventually there's predator and prey and there's sex, lots of sex, lots of sex, lots of violence.
Oh yeah. And then through natural selection, there's just a whole evolutionary process of
animals that have loved and lost and murdered and gotten murdered and all that kind of stuff. And
it's somehow led to human civilization. We're super busy trying to create things and creating
beautiful art, creating beautiful comedy, just always creating something new. It feels like it's
tending towards something. It's not dying. If you die tomorrow, you still have all these hours
of pods. So it's kind of, you're thinking of cheating death in a subconscious way, I think.
Right. You know who Ernest Becker is and I've heard the name. It's a book called The Now of
Death. This idea that if you don't acknowledge girls love it. Like Dostoevsky. No, I'm just
I'm saying you want to bring Tolstoy Dostoevsky, Russian literature. It's back to norm. It's good
to bring to, because no American has read any Russian literature, but they all appreciate it
if you bring it. And it's not like they're going to ask you and you legitimate questions because
they haven't read it. So you can always pretend like you've read it. It's a little dense. Can we
get a shortened version? Cliff notes. Yes. Or make a movie with Ben Stiller that I can just go,
oh, this is based on, what is it? Life and death? No, what's the one? War and peace.
War and peace. Yeah. So Ernest Becker's theory and there's this whole terror management theory
that basically says that our terror of death, our fear of death is one of the central creative
forces of the human condition. It's the reason we're trying to cheat death. We're trying to
dilute ourselves that somehow we can become immortal through our art. That's why you've
uploaded your special to YouTube because you think your special will outlive all of human
civilization. You think YouTube will outlive all of human civilization. That can go away tomorrow.
That can go away tomorrow. All of this can go away. So I'm truly grateful, Mr. Mark Norman,
that you would spend your very valuable time with me today, even though it could all go away.
This could be the last day of our lives. Won't you be quite upset? This is how you spent it.
Ah, yeah. You're a hotel room. What am I? You're like Harvey Weinstein here.
Yeah. You've screwed me up and now I feel fucked.
Yeah. Just wait. What we have ready for you after the podcast is over.
All right, brother. Thanks so much for talking to me. Thank you. That was great. Comedy.
Thanks for listening to this conversation with Mark Norman. To support this podcast,
please check out our sponsors in the description. And now let me leave you with some words from
Mark Norman himself on his Twitter, which you should definitely follow because it's hilarious.
The worst thing about getting Omicron for Christmas is you know it was re-gifted.
Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time.