For me, cooking is an art.
What's your favorite ingredient to cook with?
There isn't one.
It's more like when there is one, it really is one.
You know, like there's peaches on the cover of this cookbook.
Those peaches, those were in August, Colorado peaches.
It just doesn't get any better than that.
On that day, at that moment, that was the best ingredient.
That was the best, but that only lasts for a week.
And then they don't taste so great.
Yeah.
But damn, was they so good in that moment,
and you just can't stop wanting to use that ingredient?
The following is a conversation with Kimball Musk,
a longtime entrepreneur and chef,
and author of a new cookbook called The Kitchen Cookbook,
Cooking for Your Community.
You should check it out.
It is, in fact, the first cookbook I've ever owned.
I've already made stuff from it, and it's delicious.
This is the Lex Friedman Podcast.
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There's in the description.
And now, dear friends, here's Kimball Musk.
Growing up in South Africa, you said it was a violent place.
What are some formative moments that you remember from that time?
South Africa was, so I grew up in apartheid South Africa,
but more specifically, the fall of apartheid.
So it was the 80s, I was a teenager in the 80s,
and part of our social life, frankly,
was the anti-apartheid protests,
and to go be with white people, black people,
kind of mixing it all together.
The most formative experience is, frankly,
how much I appreciate a place like America
where we have value for human life.
So there was a country where human life was not valued.
It was a weird thing to come from that,
to hear where we take it so seriously,
if someone dies in a war or something like that.
And we just didn't take it seriously in South Africa.
People died.
People were killed.
I saw someone killed in front of me
that was getting off a train,
and it's a very violent train known for violence.
We were stupid kids.
We didn't really listen to our parents.
We went on this train, and the doors opened,
and I had people trying to get off the train,
and in front of me, two black people,
one black guy just stabbed this knife
in the side of this other black guy's head.
And you're like, what the fuck?
And you just, I gotta get off the train.
How old were you at this time?
Probably 16 or 17.
And I gotta get off the train,
and everyone is trying to get me to get off
because, you know, they're all behind me.
So I step off, and I step into the pool of blood,
one foot, and then I just walk
for about 100 paces while the stickiness of the blood
just kind of, for my sneakers,
just on one foot, just like,
leaves a footprint behind me.
And you just walk on.
You just walk on.
Did the others walk on as well?
Everyone walked on.
That's an interesting point you make.
Underlying the violence
is a kind of philosophy
that human life is disposable.
The individual life is disposable.
I mean, that underlies many ideologies.
You know, I grew up in the Soviet Union.
The value of human life was lower there
than in the United States.
The value of the individual
in the United States is really high.
Yeah.
There's probably an index you can put together.
Yeah, right, exactly.
Per nation.
That's a really interesting way to put it
because violence is much easier
on a mass scale.
Suffering, causing suffering
on a mass scale is much easier
when you don't value the human life.
I've heard this before,
which I think I agree with,
is when someone is killed,
someone is taken from our lives,
the vacuum that it creates,
the social vacuum,
is extraordinarily painful.
And it truly is true.
I mean, if someone in my community
passes away,
it's very, very sad for me.
And when you go to a place where,
where it will live,
grow up in a place
where that human life is not valued,
there's something about the,
there's a little bit less
of the social vacuum created
because everyone is kind of expecting
everyone to potentially be taken out
at any moment.
But then there's also a beauty to it
because there's a much more
of a celebratory element.
When my cousin Russ and I,
we, again, we're stupid kids,
we shouldn't be doing this,
but we go into the townships
where a lot of the violence
would be happening.
And we really didn't see
most of the violence there.
It was in these more protests
and so forth.
But there's a joy
that also comes from
lower value of human life.
There's a real joy.
Like everyone is like,
well, I mean, it's beautiful.
We have dinner with black friends,
you know, friends with their family
and we were still pretty young.
And there was just a real joy to it.
When you accept mortality,
you can really enjoy life.
You can really enjoy life.
I mean, I think there's actually,
that's quite a nice insight.
I've never really put it that way,
but I think that's right, actually.
I think you just chill out a bit.
Take things a little less seriously.
Because life does end for everybody.
It does, right.
And if you just head on
accept that fact,
you can just enjoy
every single moment
and let go of this attachment
and just enjoy the moment.
I think it's a real,
I do love that we all live longer
and so forth,
but we should live longer
with the goal of joy
and the goal of happiness
and peace,
not some form of misery
that you choose to attach yourself to.
Maximize joy.
Maximize joy, that's right.
There's a story
that Walter Isaacson writes about
where Elon got beat up pretty bad
and you were there
and then you also had to watch your dad
yell at Elon for an hour,
calling him worthless,
all those kinds of things.
You said it was the worst memory
of your life.
What do you make of such cruelty?
What do you remember from that time?
I mean, it was horrible.
I think, you know,
coming back to the point
of low value of human life,
they tried to kill him.
It wasn't,
it wasn't,
there was no holding back.
I just watched someone,
it wasn't just one,
but there was a main person
and then there was a few others
that piled in.
They just,
they tried to kill him
in front of me.
We were eating sandwiches
on a staircase
at the school,
in an outdoor staircase
and
I just had to,
they were not coming up to me
and I just had to watch
and I couldn't help.
It was one of the saddest,
most difficult
experiences.
It just was,
it was just awful.
Just like that,
life can end.
Yeah.
It could have been you.
Yeah,
I think,
so I've had a life,
near death experience
where I almost died.
I was in 2010
and I think that,
and I broke my neck
and I can go to that story
in a moment,
but this was different.
This was,
this was,
this comes back
to the low value
of human life part
where
if someone had killed
my brother,
if that person
had beat him to death,
which he was trying to do,
life would have gone on.
You know,
that's like an insane thought
in an American,
maybe in some tough neighborhoods,
but for the most part,
it's,
it's not a thing.
Yeah,
the brutality of that,
the mundaneness
of the brutality.
Yeah.
It makes you think
of all the places
in the world
that that's happening.
Exactly.
And all the beautiful people
that just disappear.
I always say to people
who,
who have an opinion
about America
that,
you know,
this is a really bad country
or whatever,
and I say,
look,
please go try another country
before you say that.
Not to say that America
can't get better,
but please go try
another country
because not having
that perspective
or having a perspective
that,
I don't know,
that could chip on their shoulder
about the country
that they're in.
Okay,
go try another country
and then come back
and tell me.
Pick any country.
It doesn't have to be,
it doesn't have to be
some,
you know,
very violent country.
Go pick any country.
and you just realize
that actually
the world doesn't think
the same way
that America thinks
and you're going to
just learn a perspective
that I think
gives you a better
way to critique
where we live in America.
Yeah,
it's humbling.
You said that your dad
was a roller coaster
of affection
and then verbal abuse.
Walter Isaacson
quotes Barack Obama
who said,
someone once said
that every man
is trying to live up
to his father's expectations
or make up
for his father's mistakes
and I suppose
that may explain
my particular malady.
Is part of that
ring true for you?
What I thought
you were going to say
was,
I thought you were going
to end the sentence
with live up
to my father's expectations.
This is what most people say.
But then you said
the second part
which is make up
for his mistakes.
And I think
that's actually,
that one is,
that one rings true for me.
he was really,
he's still alive
but I don't connect,
I'm not connected to him
but he's very,
he taught me,
the phrase I used to have
was he taught me
what not to do.
So I still actually
learned a lot.
What kind of human
not to be?
What kind of actions
not to take?
And so that kind of,
closer to living up
to his mistakes
but it's,
but my father
was such a train wreck
that it's not really
mistakes,
it's like
intentional actions
of what not to do.
Okay,
don't do that.
But there's still
the trauma of that,
you know,
it has an effect
on the human psychology
and can permeate
their time
so it has
probably complex
indirect effects
on who you are,
the good and the bad.
there's a critique
that my friends
give me
which is
when they're talking
to me
I kind of just
drift away
that just
I'm still looking
at them
still nodding
might even
respond to their
to their
to them
in their conversation
but I'm actually
not there
and I
I've realized
that actually
that I grew up
because my father
would just
verbal
abuse
is one way
to say it
it is abuse
but it's more
just verbal diarrhea
for you
for hours
and
constantly saying
do you understand
like he wants
to make sure
that I'm paying
attention
so I
train myself
to
look like
I'm paying
attention
but I'm not.
To disappear
to some place
Disappear to some place
Wherever that is
Yeah
and
I do that
less and less
over time
but I
But that path
has been paved
somewhere in your mind
at childhood
so
it could be easy
to walk down it
You and Elon
were close
growing up
you're still close
What did you learn
from each other?
How did you complement
each other?
Yeah I think we are
we are a good complement
I'll talk for myself
first
My
my
my strength
is definitely
on the social side
I love
I love the gathering
place
and
I love putting
people together
in person
and I love to
have vibrant
debates
and conversations
I've been doing that
forever
including
fun parties
and stuff
where
where I bring
people together
and I really
kind of want
people to have fun
and be
but be vulnerable
in a
in a
not just like
silly partying
just but actually
like let's all connect
the definition for me
of a good party
is people
laugh
and cry
like I want to
people
I want to have people
have an emotional
connection
I go to
Burning Man
every year
and that is
there's no question
you will cry
at some point
during Burning Man
no small talk
no small talk
yeah exactly
no small talk
you're totally right
on like most parties
not parties
but most events
you go to
are like clubs
these sort of
nightclubs
and I never
go to those
and my
my joke is
it's
why would I want
to go to a place
where I pay
to shout
small talk
in the dark
that's a good line
that's what it feels like
I
the only
the reason I enjoy
those places
is the full absurdity
of exactly that
right
it's totally
what are we
what are we doing
what is this
what is this like
but I have
so my compliment
for my brother
was just bringing
joy and social
connection
and he's
truly
he's an
he's an engineering genius
I've worked with him
forever
and we do
compliment each other
you just came out
with a cookbook
by the way
thank you for giving me
my first cookbook
I feel legit
I love that
it's your first cookbook
I'm gonna keep it
keep it on the counter
and it's gonna give me
legitimacy
when anyone comes over
hey listen
I'm basically a chef now
that's right
exactly
when did you first
fall in love
with cooking
I started cooking
when I was
11 years old
my mom
is just
she's wonderful
but she
she's
self-admittedly
a bad cook
but
but at the time
it was a
it was
and I think anyone
with kids
goes through this
your kids
just want like
something that
like spaghetti bolognese
or a burger
or something
and my mom
would do
brown bread
plain yogurt
and boiled squash
you know
like the absolute
most disgusting
things that a child
could imagine eating
and so I said
can I cook
and she said
yeah
if you want to cook
no problem
so I went to the grocery store
and I
I've
back in those days
a butcher
separate to the grocery store
and I went to the butcher
and I said
you know
what can I cook
and he
pulled out a chicken
and he said
this is
this is the easiest recipe
for you
just put it on a pan
in an oven
a hot oven
because back then
the ovens weren't
necessarily like
400 degrees
or 450 or whatever
and put it in a hot oven
for one hour
and enjoy
that was it
and
so I went home
and
actually I also brought
some french fries
I'll tell you that as well
so I was up
I'm a kid
of course I went
french fries
so the roast chicken
was french fries
and the chicken came out
and
it was just fantastic
it was
absolutely fantastic
that's incredible
by the way
you didn't screw it up
the first time
first of all
I think that also
kicks off the magic
like if you screw it up
and you're like
oh maybe this is not for me
so for me
it really did
did kick it off
you started out
on a high note
yeah right exactly
but I'll tell the french fry part
which was a disaster
so I cooked the french fries
but I didn't heat the oil first
so I just put the potatoes
in the oil
and I waited for it
to heat up
and
I just
was throwing up
later that
your body can't
ingest that much
because it sucks the oil
then
and so that was a disaster
but at the time
it tasted good
the real magic
which I also found
was wonderful
was
when I cooked
my brother
my sister
my mom
all very very busy
very intense
people
would sit down
and we would have
a meal together
and I was like
wow this is a powerful
it's a very powerful
thing that I've now
got
where
in no other way
could I have that
connection
with my family
I mean obviously
we stay connected
we're very close
etc
but in no other way
can we sit down
and just talk about things
or talk about whatever's
on our mind
or just to just
not even talk
just to be
in
at the table together
and
I've done that now
through my whole life
my kids
still for
my family
and we
will do gratitudes
at the beginning
of our meal
and
it's just
I think
what kept me
cooking
what made my love
of cooking
so great
was actually
the fact
that we would
sit down
together
and
be present
with each other
and I'm also just
also hard with that too
so I also get to be present
what is that about food
that
like
brings people together
and not just together
but like
really together
where you're like
paying attention
right
like what is that
what is it
why is it food
like what else
does that
sometimes maybe
alcohol can do that
which is a kind of food
I guess
yeah but I think
alcohol is different
because you're usually
standing when you're
doing alcohol
so you're like
you're socializing
but it's kind of
you're just going to
stay in more
in the small talk zone
yeah
right
whereas if you sit down
and I see this
in my restaurant
in the kitchen
in Boulder
where we
we have
every viewpoint
or we go to Denver
every viewpoint
when we're in
one in Chicago
every viewpoint
and the physical
presence
of someone being
with
right there
is
people are just
they're just
they're just very different
absolutely different
to what they are online
I think we all know
the difference between
you know
you send an email
to someone
and they
they misunderstand
the email
right
that
oh if I just
talked to the person
it would have been fine
well this is now
happening at scale
you know
with all of these
what do you call
trolling
or whatever
and I have
I've
I've sat
at the bar
and I've had
a
hardcore
Trump supporter
and I
and I'm just
I'm just curious
just like
tell me what
I'm not a Trump supporter
but
tell me more
and
and it actually
draws the conversation
out because you're there
for an hour
or longer
there's
there's no rush
to get the answer
and I think
that's a big difference
I've had
one time where
just a
just a couple months ago
I had someone
I was sitting at the community table
we have a community table
in the restaurant
and
and
he was
I didn't know him too well
but he asked me
did I know that
9-11
was a conspiracy
and it didn't really happen
it didn't happen
yeah
and I was like
huh
so I actually
I was at 9-11
I was
I mean I was
I was there
physically there
so it's like
allegedly
there's no doubt
in my mind
okay
but I
but I
but I didn't want to
but I didn't want to
interrupt his
his
what he had to say
so I let him talk
for
five minutes
six minutes
seven minutes
and again
you're there for a while
so you're not in a rush
to
to
jump in and argue
and then I shared
that I was there
and
I think because
I had
been willing
to listen to him
he was willing
to listen to me
and
he
I don't know
if he changed his mind
certainly doesn't change
my mind
but
but it was actually
a pretty cool conversation
to kind of get into
each other's mind
well I think
you connect
on a different
level
not on the level
of like
the
the conspiracy
but on the level
of basic humanity
yes
like that's what
you really connect on
and then it's
almost becomes
interesting
and fun
that you can
exchange ideas
even crazy ideas
out there ideas
and kind of
play with them
like
we humans
are good at that
yeah exactly
I like the term
play with them
because
what
what you're
not trying to do
is shut
the conversation down
you're also not
trying to
talk down to them
yeah
exactly
like
let me just
be nice
while I totally
disagree with this
person
you can do that
for a few minutes
you can't do that
for two hours
and there's something
like about food
that completely
I don't know
it must be
evolutionary
that it
it makes us
vulnerable
in a way
that even just
standing there
for a prolonged
period of time
doesn't
there's something
about
you know
like when the
animals gather
to the water
or whatever
yeah right
like this kind
of experience
where you're
just like
all right
let's
let's just
acknowledge
together
that we need
sustenance
yeah
and somehow
that kind of
grounds us
to like
we're just
we're just a bunch
of descendants
of apes
here just kind
of like
grateful to be
alive
yeah
frankly
and grateful
to be
consuming this
thing which
keeps us
alive
and in that
context
you can
talk about
all kinds
of stuff
you can discuss
flat earth
and enjoy
absolutely
in fact
one of my
favorite things
to do
is you do
like a
Jeffersonian
style
dinner
let's say
five or six
people
sometimes
people will
break off
into individual
conversations
that's actually
when things
break down
so that's
when you
kind of
go back
to small
talk
like oh
I'm stuck
next to this
guy
I'm just
going to do
a small
talk
what you
need to do
to really
create a
great
conversation
is one
conversation
at the
table
and that's
where
you know
there'll be
some
simple
questions
that I'll
say
what's
your middle
name
and you'll
be amazed
at the
stories
you get
from that
but it's
about
creating
vulnerability
so they're
like oh
no one's
ever asked
me that
before
so then
they become
vulnerable
and then
something as
simple as
what's the
most fun
thing you've
done
recently
and what
is the
most fun
thing
you're
looking
forward
to
and I
have gotten
into
with those
prompts
I've gotten
into
hours long
discussions
on God
I've gotten
into hours
long discussions
on love
I've gotten
into hours
long discussions
on
anger
it's
actually
amazing
when people
are just
asked a
question
like what's
the most
fun thing
you've done
lately
well why
would
anger
come up
well
actually
they're
in a
vulnerable
place
so it'll
just
kind of
come out
of them
so you
get to
see this
you get
to see
this
at the
kitchen
and you
said
boulder
denver
chicago
yeah
and we're
gonna open
in austin
in austin
that's what
i saw
when
in october
is the
goal
in october
where's
the goal
well
i mean
speaking of
characters
and human
beings
austin
is
fascinating
i've
um
i forget
how long
ago
a couple
months
ago
i was
just
sitting
in a
bar
and
some
the two
people
were talking
and they
were talking
about marxism
and it
turns out
that they're
anarcho
communists
which is
the thing
and i got
into this
conversation
communist
that likes
drugs
that's a
good question
to ask
i think i
know some
of those
anyway they
were beautiful
people i think
they're local
from austin i
don't you
know i
don't know
the depth
of their
personal
experience of
the different
kinds of
communist like
systems but
it was
fascinating to
listen to
and then get
to know
them and
the the
humanity the
weirdness like
the characters
it's just i
mean i love
it one of the
reasons i
really love
austin i
decided to
be here is
just the
the cliche
thing of keep
austin weird i
mean there's a
lot of weird
characters i love
it i think that
i've talked to a
lot of austin i
have been here
forever and i'm
like man you
gotta hold us
accountable we
gotta keep this
place weird
100% which
makes the
restaurant seem
great because
you have all
these characters
come in it's
great so i
look forward to
that but you
were saying like
you get to see
humans in real
life interact that's
one of the
beautiful things
yeah over
food in the
book you
write picasso
once said the
meaning of life
is to find your
gift the purpose
of life is to
give it away
then you wrote
that you believe
food is a gift
we give ourselves
three times a
day can you
explain that the
gift yeah it's
actually um i
think it's one of
my most powerful
life lessons is is
we we have to
eat so it's it's
not it's not like
you have a choice
you have to eat
and so what i
choose to do is
i'm choose to
make it a gift to
myself each for
each meal and
most of the time
the best gift is
with friends with
with family so
we'll have to cook
some scrambled eggs
in the morning with
my daughter or
we'll have dinner
with uh the our
family to me it's
a it's a gift we
give ourselves three
times a day you
know at least but
for the most part
three times a day
let's make it a good
one what makes it a
good one to you
like what what
aspect makes it a
good one well
first definitely
eating with with
people so that
makes it a good
one so eating um
eating as a in a
restaurant or it
doesn't have to be
my restaurant we
have the energy of
of people around
you energy of the
town people you
don't know creates
a little bit of a
vibe that you
mentioned the the
watering hole
analogy that animals
like sipping at the
water but there's a
there's an energy to
that because they're
also like looking
around going oh
is am I just about
to be eaten
so there's they're
all in it together
but we need to have
water but there's
still a little bit
of tension as well
in the background
and I think that's
what restaurants do
is a very very
subtle version of
that you're in a
room with strangers
and you're yeah
you're a little
cluster okay fine
you guys are
connected in it
yeah but you're in
a room with
strangers and it's
just something that
adds that energy to
to the meal
yeah you're a little
bit wondering like
what does everyone
else think about
our little cluster
right like are we
too loud or just
you also just people
are random so
something random
could happen
and also depending
on your personality
if you're an
extrovert maybe you
want to show off to
the other clusters
exactly yeah
absolutely totally
right I mean you
know look at the
cowboy hat
I mean actually I'll
take my hat off when
I want to have a
quiet meal and I
can leave my hat on
when I'm so you're
aware of the lot
I'm aware of the
effect it has yeah
absolutely
everyone turns
and then it's back
to the watering
hole because when
you wear a cowboy
hat you just might
actually not yeah
I'm like they're
gonna they're gonna
get me first
at noon I love
it I gotta tell
the story so
this is a talk to
the the the
craziness of being
of being in the
restaurant world where
you know you're
sitting at a table
and anything can
happen in the
restaurant so there's
one time as like
15 years ago the
this guy comes up
to us and says
we'd like to
propose to his
wife his girlfriend
and and and so
we we said okay
cool that we've
done this before
we'll make sure it's
all set up 6 p.m.
kind of reservation
so she shows up
and we we give
her a glass of
champagne and
just yeah we
didn't obviously
didn't want to
spoil the surprise
we just doing it
we can but then
he doesn't then
he doesn't arrive
and then we're
like oh man now
we're like don't
don't leave can
we get you another
glass of champagne
we're doing
everything we
can because
the guy was
obviously earnest
earlier we're just
because he's stuck
in traffic or
whatever and
coming through the
back door of the
restaurant which is
you're not allowed
to come through the
back door of the
restaurant a
marching band from
the school or
the university like
comes through the
restaurant you know
full-on brass band
and the whole thing
and and you know
he gets down and
he proposes and
it's it's it's it's
it's beautiful sure
but it's also like
chaos man this is
chaos this is insane
and we would
never have said
yes to this if
he'd actually told
us what he was
going to do well
sometimes in life you
have to do it and
apologize you do it
and apologize but
that toast to that
kind of what's the
crazy thing that
could happen in a
it it's subtle but
it's but it's still
there so in 2004 you
opened the kitchen it's
an american bistro
restaurant what was
it like what's it
like running a
restaurant the good
the bad and ugly
what's the what's
the easy what's the
fun and what's the
hard I think the
thing that I
absolutely love
about running the
restaurant not eating
it but running the
restaurant is the
the tangible
reaction from from
people and uh um
you you know you
also kind of know
when you screwed it
up and you also know
when you got it
right so even it's
kind of a weird way
to say this but even
if the customer's
unhappy you know
whether you got it
right or wrong it's
not just about the
food you're making
but it's about the
person's psychological
state yeah and
you'll even you'll
you'll do something
that you're like you
know that that was
not done well and
their psychological
state is they're
just in a very happy
place and they love
it and you're like
huh interesting you
know like that's not
how I would have
reacted to that dish
yeah and then the
other way around
you'd like no I got
that right and that
that person's just like
really unhappy today
yeah and it's so
hard to read humans
because you have to
if you got it right
that can look a
million different
ways depending on
the emotional
rollercoaster that
human is living
through like I've
been some very low
points and I've
gone to like a
restaurant alone and
just sitting there and
be truly happy with
just the zen aspect
of it and it was
just a great like a
great steak or
something like this
and maybe to other
people around me would
look like I'm very
unhappy just because
I'm within my within
myself with your day
yeah within myself but
I'm truly happy within
that struggle so yeah
it's interesting but you
can kind of tell yeah
you could tell and
what you mentioned
being at the bar one
of the most gift the
most gifted bartenders
really understand that
you know it goes
beyond but what's
also great about a
restaurant it goes
beyond the one time
experience that you
walk in and you have
that experience is the
good bartenders they
remember you oh you
were in a few months
ago and this is kind
of your thing you
might need a little
time and other
people will come in
they want a
conversation yeah or
other people come in
and they're going
through a divorce and
they just want to be
sad for a moment
yeah a scotch
yeah and it's like
it's amazing what you
learn in the in the
restaurant world to
just be connected to
humanity yeah what is
that about bars that's
a different experience
you said the the table
the the communal the
table is when you
connect with people
learn about each other
bars you can sometimes
do that you can talk
left and right but you
but you have the
freedom to always break
break free like you
can say oh okay great
I'm gonna go back to
my meal so it's kind
of like the it's like a
it's a friend you can
turn on and off at any
time because at the
bartender knows that
they're trained like if
you want attention I'm
gonna give it to you if
you don't I'm gonna I'm
gonna stay away if you
if you want to be
chatty I'm gonna be
chatty you want to be
completely in your head
I'll leave you in your
head but there's also
strangers kind of next
to you that you kind of
there's a feeling with a
bar that you're kind of
alone together yeah and
you can reach out yeah
you can add some
conversation or you can
choose not to and you
can exit quickly you can
exit you get exactly it's
a really good exercise so
so bars are wonderful and
I love going to a bar by
myself after work I might
have a scotch might even
not even have alcohol just
have something and I just
and maybe have a snack or
something before dinner
because I'm gonna go home
and have dinner with the
family and that that 20
minutes it's just a an
amazing state change from
daytime to nighttime where
if I went straight home I'm
like still in my head and
I'm just trying to try to
get grounded and I'm just
I'm not as pleasant of a
person so there's another
powerful use of a bar it's
just like a transition time
but I mean it would be
remiss not to mention the
other use of the bar which
is like when you're going
through some shit in life and
you just go I mean that's
sort of the it's the cliche
thing I've been so I love
sorry exactly but like the
bar makes the melancholy
somehow like rich and
beautiful and like it's you
feel heard yeah in the
silence yes you feel heard
you like like I said earlier
like the people going through
a divorce they don't know
where else to go yeah this is
these are mostly men sometimes
women will do it but mostly
men will do this and women
have other ways of processing
it but they just they want a
place to be sad they want a
place where they could feel
comfortable talking about it
if they're certainly not going
to go into too much detail but
they just want to say
something yeah and the
bartender is there for them
yeah you don't know where to
go you don't know where to go
exactly the bar the bar yeah
you're right like it for men
especially is a place to just
go yeah and just I don't know
what is that I mean what is
that I'll be honest I still do it
myself where if I'm at home and
I'm you know don't don't have a
work thing that I got to deal
with and I don't have kids and I
don't have my wife or family
around I'm I don't often cook for
myself I actually love going to a
bar by myself I have a glass of
red wine and I have you know you
don't have a starter appetizer I
just like a main meal and I just
take in the energy of the space
it was my restaurant someone else's
restaurant I just take in the
energy and it's so much so much
better than being home and but
turn the TV on no no no I I want to
be out in the restaurant I want to
feel the energy of the town the
other thing that restaurants teach
me is the there are the front lines
of of the economy or what's the
better word for it just like this
front front lines of the energy of
of of of how things are going or
like of a people's in general like
it doesn't necessarily mean this
part of town but it could be the
entire society exactly so you can
you can go into a restaurant and I'll
use a simple example and then why is
the restaurant empty ah there's a
football game going on and that's
they people there's such a large
number of people want to watch that
game that the restaurant is quiet or it
might be like another like world series
or something and you're like wow that's
so interesting and you can actually
watch you know in America of course
American humanity watch them move in
their patterns just by being in the
restaurant yeah yeah and then another
time you might be in a restaurant and
it's just jamming and it's a Monday
night and you're like what what what is
the energy that created this on a Monday
night and maybe even on a cold February
Monday night what is it and sometimes you
can't find out but you can feel it and
it's a it's like it's my it's my front
lines of humanity that I that I also
just really love about the restaurants
yeah it could be empty could be full
empty bars there's a magic to those too
yeah you could still feel that energy I
don't know I actually prefer empty
bars 10 than full ones it's just you and
the bartender I mean some of my greatest
experience is just the quiet bar just me
and the bartender and they're doing their
thing and they've seen so many I've
almost like through osmosis somehow feel
the stories that that bartender has seen
has felt has heard yeah and all that kind
of stuff I mean that it's it's not to be
sort of uh like spiritual about it but it
seems like it's in the walls or something
like there's the histories felt and in some
of these bars are actually very old and
it's wonderful like you know the remaining
Europe like this but there's a couple in
New York City a few hundred years old and
you you and they're still operating
non-stop for that long and man you feel
it yeah let me ask you some questions
about ingredients what's your favorite
ingredient to cook with for me cooking is
an art right so be like asking me what's
my favorite favorite paint color to use or
it doesn't it's not that it there it isn't
like um there isn't one it's more like when
there is one it really is one you know
like there's peaches on the on the cover of
this cookbook those peaches that those were
in August Colorado peaches it just doesn't
get any better than that on that day at
that moment that was the that was the but
that only lasts for a week yeah and then
they don't taste so great yeah but damn
are they so good in that moment and you
just can't stop wanting to use that
ingredient they look really good they're so
good what's your favorite uh fruit I love
veggies and fruit what's your favorite
fruit I love a smoothie bowl so I do sort
of uh berries raspberries uh but but but I
use fruit more in the form of a smoothie
bowl than I eat fruit that often I like it
I like an apple or a banana but for most
part I prefer like the blended not me I
love the way you casually said it like an
apple a good apple is pretty great for me
it's a problem I think probably cherries
number one probably uh what are they called
granny smooth apples number two oh yeah those
are great but try it when sometime come to
Colorado in August and when you try those
peaches it is like heaven has arrived in your
mouth it is so ridiculously good but just for a
week in August just for a week you can't have
it all year long uh what about veggies you wrote
that chef Hugo that you worked with the
co-founder of the kitchen with taught you the
power of a good vegetable yeah what's the
power of a good vegetable so I've trained in
New York right as a French chef but it wasn't
very much ingredients focused it wasn't very
much uh sourcing focused he came from the river
cafe in London which was one of the night the
ogs of for the farm to table and uh still going
strong today and he he taught me the the value
of getting to know farmers and getting to know
vegetables from that farm versus vegetables from
that farm and they're actually different soil's a
little different whether the way they grow it a
little different it's the opposite of the
industrial machine where everything needs to
look exactly the same and um sometimes you'll get
carrots that are kind of ugly and deformed but
there's much sweeter than the carrots you'd get uh for
other purposes so you'd make a carrot puree out of
that and then you'd take carrots that are that are
more typical in shape and size you might roast them
for uh for for general so the the it's the appreciation
for uh vegetables in general um I probably would say
carrots is my favorite just because I've used that was
an example of one where I've really had to learn how
to use the the the different types of carrots that come
from around from all of our farms and um it's fun you
it's a fun ingredient if you just went to the whole
foods or just went to a grocery store and you just got
exactly the same carrot every time less fun but go to a
farmer's market and see what you get and you'll you'll see
they're quite different yeah carrot for me is probably
number one I have uh rigorous detailed rankings for fruit
and veggies that's amazing we'll get into it well I am the
kind of person that would have like a spreadsheet for
that but I'm mostly just making fun of myself I do love
carrots uh I wish they weren't so full of carbs but yeah I'm
not I'm just not anti-carbs you know I think the anti-carb yeah
yeah I think they play a role you know like I am I have a great
friend who's an amazing doctor and um he uh did some test for me
and everything and it turns out I have a gluten allergy and I was
like okay uh so what that means is I shouldn't eat gluten it's
like yeah it's like okay but I also have hay fever and that that
means I should not go out into nature so it's like nah I think I'm
gonna go out into nature and maybe what I'll do on bread and
pastures or I like the true carbs I'll I'll just have it when it's
really good because when it's really good it's really good and you
don't want to miss that most of the time okay find some crummy
bread whatever like I can skip that part but I find all of these
diets are like no none of this or super this super that I I wonder if
they're just like a like a people are just looking for something
to hang on to but these diets have been around forever and if
they work then we would know that yeah I think one of the biggest
problems with diets is it adds stress when you do have that
perfect bowl of pasta if you're if you have categorized
yourself as a low carb eating person you might be very stressed
about enjoying this yeah when you should just let go let go this is
your cheat day or whatever yeah and I've heard that and actually I I I
have friends who do that their cheat day and I say to them I'm only gonna hang
out with you on your cheat day because that's when you're actually fun yeah I
I mean I I would say like for me there's things that make me feel really good
but they're not rules they're not uh they're like go-to favorites
uh speaking like in terms of diet and so on for example I've mostly been eating
once a day oh wow for for the longest time but that's not a rule okay like it's
it's completely flexible and I've mostly been eating very low carb okay but you
must be eating a lot of food in that one meal yeah it's not you know because it's
usually a very sort of meat heavy it's not like portions are not that big but
your body needs food yeah body needs food so you're talking about like 2,000
calories what you find out is like that dinner is like the most social time of
the day yeah I mean I have kids in the morning so if you have kids it's for
sure a morning experience but if you don't then you're right yeah but like you
said I deviate you know I'm more afraid of missing the perfect for the perfect
dessert the perfect breakfast the perfect uh bowl of pasta pizza all that kind of
stuff yeah I don't think of it as a cheat day I think it's um well if you're
eating one meal a day you can eat whatever you like well like I want to make
clear that it's not one meal a day always and I'm like this very strict
thing right uh it's you always have to be open to the experience to the new
experience uh otherwise you do miss out just like you said hay fever like I think
if you want to be really safe you should never leave your home yes just wrap we
learned during covid if you wrap yourself in cotton wool in your basement yes you're
not going to die from covid you might die from a lot of other things of pure
misery yeah well you might live forever right we don't know but it certainly
doesn't maximize the joy of whatever whatever makes life worth living it
doesn't maximize that yeah exactly you wrote in the book that Anthony Bourdain
was one of your heroes can you speak to what inspired you about him yeah he wrote a
book called kitchen confidential in the 90s I was in cooking school at the time
it was so he romanticized the kitchen cooking in the restaurant so well his
writing is great so he kind of got me into like oh that's cool I want to do
that that was it was it was cool uh so you know got into cooking school got more
engaged in it and I and I was like this had this FOMO feeling of I wanted to
experience what it's like to be in in the back when you're cooking school you are
you're in the back of us you had a restaurant we would serve people but it's
not the same thing as actually being in a like a real restaurant it's like you're in
a submarine with with you know your your teammates and you got to win tonight
like it's a real it's a real energy and so that that was a big inspiration I
followed him over there so sad that he he chose to end his life but I also had met with
him a few times not not like one-on-one over dinner or anything but just like met
with him and and um I just felt his love for for food and truly just love for food
he gave the advice of don't be afraid get excited and cook with love yeah I've used
that phrase especially the cook with love one I mean when you know one of the things
about which we talked about this earlier where you get quick tangible feedback from a
customer when you're in the restaurant um I know when I didn't put love into that dish
I know when one of my line cooks did not put love into that part of the dish I know when
that expert person did not put love into look you know double checking the dish before putting it on the
table I you just know and cook with love is uh when you do it for your family oh actually
especially especially when you do it for your family the food isn't doesn't have to be perfect
but you're cooking with love that's why you lost scrambled eggs I do that it's that's in the book
Kimball's scrambled eggs yes you promised to make me scrambled eggs I'm gonna hold you to it that's great
uh a cooking school you mentioned the French Culinary Institute I heard it was a bit of a rough
experience in parts I would call it it's it's not a rough experience in that in a beautiful way yeah
yeah it's exactly it's not like I'm a victim of it it's yeah it's uh it's rough in that they
intentionally make it rough so the the school costs the same price as Harvard to go to
you show up you have to it's an 18 month program you are allowed to drop out at any time you don't get
your money back 25 people started six people graduated and the people who graduated I graduated
but man there was there were times where I'm like I I can't handle this I mean I would literally say
to my friends oh I gotta go to cooking school I'm gonna go get screamed at for the next six or seven
hours yeah and I had this uh little French chef who was my uh nemesis does he still live in your
head somewhere he still lives in my head exactly he's only does he's like five foot two or something
and uh and I remember him screaming so much at me that this he's like the short guy I'm six five
the spittle would land on my face nice and I would just have to sit there or stand there
and take it it was a very humbling experience I did learn though that it just that's it's intentionally
rough so I took a little bit of the um edge off it one day when that same chef had come over to me
and said move over a little bit and I moved over and he took my carrots whatever and started just
chopping everything it's like perfectly and then he said okay you can come back and then he went over
to someone else and started screaming at them saying that look even Kimball can do this
and you can't do this and I was like this whole thing's like a psych psycho game yeah so it did
take the edge off when I realized there was like the guy the guy was intentionally trying to break
you down and they do this apparently in the army I'm I've not been to the army but they they need you
to they need to break you down everything you know is worthless so that then we can teach you and
you can come out of it with what actually we want you to know are there specific technical lessons
you remember you learned from that sort of how to cut carrots or how to approach food how to prepare
food how to think about food how to carry yourself in the kitchen you know all of those things um I think
that the one of the most beautiful lessons was actually scrambled eggs um so the there's different
layers of chefs so they're all master chefs they're all very well-known people and everything but
but Alain Soltner was one of the chief like main main guys and he just passed away master chef
and uh everything kind of stopped when he would show up in the kitchen and he would teach very few things
and all of the other chefs who you know the same ones that were screaming at us just like
it was like the red sea partying like they have total respect for this human and he can do what
every once and the one of the things he wanted to teach was how do you make an omelet a french omelet
and it's really fundamentally the same thing it's a soft scrambled egg that you that you fold
and uh the love that he put into the time with us and of course he's a legend there were moments like
that where I'm like wow okay he he also he also just like the other chef didn't have any concern
berating anyone so he berated our master chefs nice saying I don't trust these people to teach you
how to make scrambled eggs so I'm gonna do it instead
what I mean can you speak to that because you know a lot of people hearing this would be like
scrambled eggs like why do you need to be a master chef to to really make yeah it's a it's a well first
of all um for me and and it's it's a it's a learning journey forever so so I make I make scrambled eggs
I mean I must have made it 10 10 000 times or more or whatever so it's like jero dreams of sushi
kimball dreams of scrambled eggs pretty much okay so I will um I will wake up and uh be held accountable
my by my kids to make scrambled eggs so this happens every morning and um it's I I know all the steps
muscle memory level kind of steps I don't know how much well I know and then I'll cook it and
it's very meditative for me because you have to focus so most scrambled eggs soft scrambled eggs recipes
are 10 15 minutes uh to get them to the that perfect softness and the the recipe that I got from uh
chef chef Alain was um was something that you do it in 90 seconds but it requires total focus
like if you like look up for a second you're going to miss you're going to miss the the perfect
moment we have to stop and get those eggs out of the pan because once the eggs will keep cooking
and so it's this meditation and it's sometimes you hit it like perfectly but most times
could have been a little softer could have been a little firmer could have been a little bit more
salt could have been a little bit more pepper um uh and so so what's really fun about the morning is
my kids are kind of into it so they're sort of like we we critique the eggs yeah every morning
do they have a rating system we're back to this it's more of a it's more like and again it's also
come back to how people feel right so my kids can be in a bad mood and they can be grumpy or it's
like a michelin star system like what no no there's not it's it's more like oh yeah I am I like my
a little more gooey or or yesterday it was this way a little bit more salt a little less a little
less salt salt is usually the one that is because um uh not all salts are are are equal so if you
are used to working with a certain kind of salt and then you're you just are forced for somebody ran
out of salt to use some use some other salt you actually don't know how to use it you really you
need really want to have the same salt all the time yeah you have a page on salt in the book
which is fascinating salt is you got to get to know your salt you gotta you gotta love your salt
and you're gonna use it over and over and over again yeah and it will teach you uh how to use
that salt whereby you know your own palate will tell you how salty you like things but if you change
it up and you mix up a whole bunch of salt you've now multiplied your learning path so for me I my
favorite salt is is uh kosher salt and I like to use that all the time and if uh if I ever change it
I might sprinkle a little bit of mold and salt which is crunchy uh sort of a flaky salt but it's
more for for that when you're actually eating texture yeah it gives you texture as well as salt
exactly you wouldn't use it on scrambled eggs but the but if you switch out your salts it's a
different weapon yeah yeah I need to learn it I like I like how you know usually there's wine
connoisseurs you're saying you're going back to sort of farm to table when you're talking about
carrots in that same rigor and nuance you have to consider the different farms involved for the
carrots in that same way you have to consider the different salts yeah with like and also not even
all kosher salts are the same it's the particular salt that you like get to know it because get in a
relationship with it it's like great you will learn so much how they in terms of the uh the
measurement the proportion the amount you put of salt you put in are you doing that like exactly
or are you doing it by feel so it's by feel and that's where you get the relationship so in fact I
have a in the in the book in the cookbook I have qr codes that people can scan because what I struggle
with recipes is they don't they don't teach technique right they can they can describe the technique but
they don't teach the technique because it's it's a technique it's not a recipe and so one of the
one of the lessons is how do you salt a steak and the answer is not here's a teaspoon and you do it this
way the answer is use kosher salt so you can see with your eyes because they're little flakes how much salt
is on your steak and then taste it and cook it and then taste it you know do you think you need
more or you need it less okay now next time put a little more on because you can see it and it's
about learning the the the fact that you you want to be able to see how much salt is on the steak so
that you can then train yourself for the future how much salt you want your steak yeah but then the
steak and the salt kind of dance together it depends on where the steak came from that's true that's
true or the thickness of the steak that'll make a difference but for the most part if you learn if
you if you're able to see it versus table salt for example this just just disappears you just can't
see what you're putting on your steak you can't really learn as a result i think you talk about
roast chickens where your love of food began well what about steak what's your love a good steak so
great so in in the in the school in the french school you add sauces and all this kind of stuff
and and boulders when you realize like there's a beauty to the to the basic yeah like a good
um uh new york strip from a good rancher that that uh you know the the there's a lot of uh
discussion controversy on how how cattle should be raised and we have a we have a very uh different
approach which is we know how our cattle are raised we go to the farm we get to know the
rancher we and um sometimes you do want to have them be finished on like they'll be grass-fed for
the most part but then then there's some sort of cool recipe of food you're giving them that will
then make them taste better um and sometimes it is actually pretty good to have 100 grass-fed
i've had some amazing uh ranches that that show me that the flavor is all there for the average person
that you know might go to whole foods or a grocery store i think the simplicity of a good steak
it's it it is important to get good sourcing but also it's just it's just it's just good what's
your favorite cut of meat it's new york strip probably new york strip for me yeah new strip yeah i like the
fact that it's lean but if you want the fat you can dive into that little strip of fat or you can
leave it alone because you you don't want it that night um and it's uh uh it's also a great steak for
adding something like if you want to you could either do a pepper sauce or you could do a lot
of ground pepper which gives it a peppery and it's not not sauce but it's a peppery steak it's a
really good steak for like a canvas for for other things but the basic ingredients you're playing with
the salt and pepper yeah it's just pretty much actually i will say there's another one uh garlic
when you when you can one of this is my favorite recipe for for a steak is you you season it both sides
salt and pepper you saute it um in in a little olive oil barely barely anything and um you're getting a
nice crisp like a golden dark golden brown on both both sides the other the other trick with cooking
steak is don't touch it you know just put one side when you're ready to turn it turn it around
don't touch any other any other time but at the end you take a dab of butter and you crush a clove of
garlic you don't even chop it you just crush the clove and you you put the two of them in the in the pan
and you just roll the steak around in the garlic butter i think that's the one bold move bold move
what are you uh since you're in austin quite a bit opening a restaurant here what do you think
about barbecue it's kind of the the texas way well i would say there's an austin way which is an
austin which is and actually even austin would say there's a suburb of austin way okay is i think that
actually the the adventure of food is wonderful um i would absolutely say that that austin is
is one of the great food uh cities of america and barbecue is one of is one of its gifts that that
it gives the city but but you go to one and the other and you'll have a different approach and that's
the part i love is where there's a real celebration of the artisan so um you might go to one and they
have a they have a style that they love and they've been doing it for years and then you'll go to another
and they have a style that they love and they've been doing it for years and it's it's not they're
still barbecue but they're actually different and it's really beautiful to see that and that's
i think that's what that's that's what food culture is like it just builds up over time
by people who love this style of cooking well i especially love the communal like how they
structure restaurants usually or i don't even want to call it a restaurant because it's a
it it doesn't feel like a restaurant it feels like a tavern or some sort like terry black's
it's like that it's like yeah they also have like paper towels yeah as messy as you like and
it's a whole roll of paper towel they don't just give you a napkin they know what you're getting into
yeah and it there's just wood everywhere and it's kind of has this feel like this place has been
around forever it's not changing i know it's the 21st century with the internet and all this kind of
yeah nonsense that you people are building but really this is all about the same yes it's been the
same for generations we're doing it the same that kind of feel like if you want to escape the world
in that way and then truly connect with people one of the other things that will happen in a town like
austin is there'll be a barbecue joint that is just legendary right and then out of that will come
someone who wants to do their own barbecue joint and they'll take the learning from that barbecue
joint they'll open up a new one but it won't be the same as the other barbecue joint part of it is
like dude like don't just do the same thing like do something what what do you what do you have to
say but also part of it is if you're in the world of food like as an art form and you want to go
open up another barbecue joint you you you kind of want to prove yourself like i deserve to have a
barbecue joint in this town i know this is one of the holy grails of barbecue and and people will
follow you like they're following a musician or they're following an artist and they are excited
to see what your version is and how well you can pull it off it's like it's actually that's what i
love that's what i mean by like a city with a food culture that austin has that there's also like a legend
to certain places certain places are more than just the food they create it's like that could be a
burden they have to like live up to the legend legendary nature of the name our restaurant in
boulder the kitchen is 20 years old um we're very well known very well respected and we do have to
live up to the name i think that our our restaurant lives up to its name in it in not just the food it's
like you walk in and you feel the restaurant and that that is also uh it's something we've we've just
done naturally um the space is a 120 year old building used to be a brothel and it was a bookstore
i mean like storied history this was a literally this was a um a mining town right so back in
1800s this was built late 1800s um uh that sort of brothels were that was a thing and so there's an
actual tunnel under in the basement that goes to the local hotel that uh would be used for going
back and forth between the hotel and and the brothel without people knowing and the tunnel is now
concreted up but you can go about 20 30 feet into the tunnel but you go into the you go into the space
and it's actually an old space so you feel like it's been there forever yeah in 2010 you had a life
threatening accident uh that changed the way you see life the world also the way you see food and
cooking uh can you tell me the story of it yeah uh so 2010 i was 37 i had opened the restaurant
uh in 2004 and i had loved the restaurant world loved it but i didn't really want to grow a restaurant
company that wasn't my my goal and so i got went back into technology and i had uh i had gone from
something that i love to something that i like for me it was like it's like chewing sawdust every day
i just couldn't believe that i had gone from that had changed my life i had gone back into technology
and now i do do work in technology and i i do love it but i found a better relationship with it but
i was really really unhappy and from the outside i was a sort of ceo of a part startup but from the
inside i was just just very unhappy and i um was in jackson hole and i was doing these very aggressive
snowboard runs and i'm at the time a pretty pretty good aggressive snowboarder and i remember saying
to myself look i've got kids i need to chill on this i'm next day was valentine's day next day
tomorrow's valentine's day i'm just gonna have a nice day with the family and my wife at the time
and um we went to a children's run to do the inner tube run and the tubes are small but everyone uses
the same tube so i'm six foot five and uh my kids are four years old and everyone uses the same size
tube it should have been a message to me not not to get on this thing but i went and got on it and
on the first run and i went down you're going super fast 35 miles an hour and the tube hit the
breaking mats and it stopped the little tube just stopped where it was just threw me i was my my
head was uh facing downhill so that's created the wrong center of gravity so instead of breaking it
just threw me i landed on my head my head went into my chest like compression into my chest down like
that i ruptured my spine at c6 and c7 and in like the blink of a second i was paralyzed i was like
like like what you know just like impossible to impossible to comprehend and they take me put this
they put this big thing on my halo on my head and they take me to the hospital which was more of a
medical clinic and i'm just like what was going on here do you remember your thoughts from the moment
it happened to like the way to get got to the hospital i remember being so this is a one of the
things that actually the doctor said caused the most damage was um i was thrown from the tube and i and i
heard this big crunch sound in my body and i knew that i was hurt but i didn't feel any pain
which is also that's that's also like why wouldn't you feel pain because you don't paralyzed you don't
feel pain as uh and i'm face down on the on the snow and the snow is burning my face because you know
you can't you can't do that you need something and i found a way to turn myself around so that
my face wouldn't be on the ground but i knew i couldn't move and um uh that they said actually
caused more damage than well obviously the accident created the opening but once once you move your body
the blood goes into the spinal column at a faster rate and that that is what caused my paralysis
but i remember that and i um i remember getting into the into the the the ambulance
um did you think you were gonna die at that like in those seconds minutes it was a different feeling
of death it was it's more
it was more of a what is going on here like i just was it was more like i can't make sense of what's
going on it was uh uh
uh it was it was a moment i got to the hospital and they they did this mri and the doctor comes up
to me and says look we've we've done this mri and uh so so i'm now now i'm in the hospital and i'm like
i can't move but i also don't even feel any pain so i'm like it's very confusing your body looks like
you can move it like look see how i'm moving my hand like it looks like you can do that and then
it just doesn't move it doesn't there's no there's no there's no feedback loop that it's not moving
your brain even thinks it's moving but it's not moving it's like the worst like most terrifying
thing so the doctor says look where the way you broke your neck was really at a zero degree angle
that is so rare but as a result there is no twisting of this of the spine we think that we
can get the blood out of your spinal column and you should get uh some or maybe all of your movement
back and um uh i was like oh okay i think i'm gonna be fine i guess i'm gonna be fine and then i
realized i had tears just streaming down the side of my face and i was like whoa man i have no idea
what's going on so this kind of intense state of confusion i wonder if it's a weird psychological
defense mechanism of like taking you away from the obvious possibility of death yeah it was a for sure
all the defense all of the defenses were up i don't know how else to describe it but there was
there was denial yeah there was uh uh there was there was this curiosity of like why is there no pain
like that's that when they did actually repair me and fix me it was three days later the pain was
indescribable how much pain i was in but there was no pain for three days
the human body is fascinating man wow so they were able yeah so they did the surgery but i had this
i had this very clear voice in my head that uh kind of determined that it's god i'm not religious but i
don't know how else to describe the voice and this voice is very clear i you're gonna work with kids and
food okay well where's that come from i'm like tech ceo i have a restaurant and then we were working
with some kids in schools with like some you know helping a local non-profit and look no you're just
gonna work on kids and food uh uh and my good friend antonio my brother were in the hospital and i was
like i'm gonna work on kids and food you know because they're like he's crazy he lost his mind but
not not not that they were already no one was arguing with me but i was like i'm just going to
do that i need to say it out loud and i remember resigning from my to my job as a ceo from the
hospital and um that was it it was it was just clear it was a clear voice wasn't for a moment wasn't
like a flash of light or anything it was probably two weeks of clear voice of clarity clarity exactly
clarity and no monkey brain nothing no monkey brain just clarity so you're not a religious person but
you do call it the voice of god who is that god do you think like who is that that where did that come
from well i've done ayahuasca and i've spoken to what they call mother ayah which is another version of
of god it's a it's a divine presence it's maybe i think it's a better way to say it
i've also had this debate in my head like maybe it's just me i'm talking to me and it's my my uh
peaceful uh more kinder more less caught up in the emotion of the day version of me maybe it's me
okay maybe it is but it's there but who are you like how deep does it go what what does you mean
you could be you know first of all like the depth of what the human mind even is is a gigantic mystery
consciousness all of it yeah who are you it's like yeah maybe it is you but then maybe in order to
build you we need to build the universe yeah the entire like you are actually a fundamentally a part of
this whole human society so the piece the pieces of humans that you've interacted with are all within
you and then maybe the history of the humans that came before are also in there and maybe the entirety
of life on earth is also in there yeah and whatever the the whatever brought life about on earth is in
there somewhere yeah so that's all you yeah all of the the which is really true evolution is is literally
is true that that that we all are we the photons from the sun came in you're part fish we all came
from we all came from that i think this one you know so one of the uh uh one of the things i do is
meditate and this was i've been meditating for many many years and what way i meditate is i i sit and i
listen to my thoughts and i simply just do that for 15 to 20 minutes and it just calms the calms the
nervous system and i might i might breathe and just be breathe through because it's been a stressful
day and it's just a beautiful way to i kind of do it around i remember i said i used to do a scotch at
at the bar after work now i go meditate for instance a little less a little bit better for my uh
sure mind for my for my for my health but um meditation i was taught um was sam harris actually
taught me this uh was not so much just about watching your thoughts but realizing that you're a
watcher you're actually a watcher you're not just like who who is the person watching that that's you
actually your thoughts are are floating through your mind but you are the watcher and i said oh that's
very interesting okay so i'm gonna learn that i'm gonna i'm gonna be the watcher and what i learned
was i'm watching these thoughts go by and there's a consistent other presence
and i'm like what is that consistent other presence it's not a thought that is not a it's not a not
something i can kind of let it float away and it doesn't even want to float away it isn't it's just
it's just a consistent other presence that i can watch and feel so you you are the watcher
watching the feelings and thoughts but there's also another presence next to you almost yes yeah
that's how i feel and it's a beautiful presence it's not not a presence that is trying to intervene
it's not a presence that is trying to tell you what to do it's just a beautiful presence and that
might be the the thing part of the thing you met when uh you took ayahuasca i learned about mother
ayahuasca where you have this experience of talking to actually i would say the closest thing to breaking
my neck but that feeling was ayahuasca can you go through that experience because i'm actually
traveling to the amazon jungle in a in a month i'll probably do ayahuasca for the first time okay so i
need a preview unofficial instruction manual yes sure so first of all i think many many different ways to
do it right so and i have done i've done many many different ways um there's a very western
medicine approach where you have uh doctors that uh look after you during the day you know put an eye
mask on you're on on a futon and you're really are in a western medicine setting and it's uh frankly
for me has been the most powerful experience i feel the most comfortable because i'm part of western
medicine in my upbringing the other extreme but they're kind of in between would be very
probably a peruvian ceremonies where you're probably going to go very much um uh about
you do it in a community you do it with others and you you feel people go through their pain and
their processing um so i i know i know the whole gamut but the the thing that the thing that i found
most powerful about it uh and profoundly powerful i would say for physical is it's non-recreational so
no don't no one should do this for a good time this is not a good time this is uh this is a very
almost traumatic but in again a beautiful way i was actually going to say that way but it's not it's not
traumatic it's profound so it's it's more like you don't have you you you you you really leave who
you were before behind and then you become the person you will be afterwards
and that's never an easy thing yes exactly and sometimes what what i recall is was arguing with
by the eye and saying no i'm i'm fine like what what are you what are you talking about like leave me
alone and uh yeah how did that work out
um but before 2010 the accident and the the two transformational experiences you had
you were a very successful uh tech ceo uh maybe go back to the early days
uh with zip two uh in 1994 you and elon started zip two tell me the story of that
yeah so 94 we actually did a road trip around the u.s to brainstorm about what what we wanted to do
after college what was the road trip like was it that was awesome so we went from silicon valley to
to philadelphia nice my brother's uh old like a very really cool you know it's one of those very old
bmws not not not ones from the 60s or 70s but it wasn't but but the car didn't work it would break
down all the time but we had um we had a blast you know we just i remember going through needles
on the border of california or arizona it's a town called needles it's the hottest place in america
and the engine could was not cooling so we had to put the heat on
so we've had the heat blasting to cool the engine keep the engine cool and keep the windows down
because though you can't stand the heat in the car but actually the outside heat is hotter than
the inside heat so you're you're just you're just in an in a furnace yeah you're driving through
just sweating even i can't imagine doing that wow in the day yeah it was a it was a it was a
wonderful it took us a few weeks i think three weeks maybe first time across america first uh
like a road trip like that yeah for sure um but it was really not a road trip for tourist sites we we
went to the weirdest places um and actually i would say we didn't we didn't go to them we broke down
in the weirdest places because that's what that's when we stopped yeah do you meet any interesting
people i remember um we broke down in the badlands of south dakota about an hour from rapid city and
there's that road is empty and so we actually slept in in the car because there was just no one around
you know cell phones in those days and eventually a trucker picked us up i was just like man you guys
are the dumbest kids on the planet i was like 21 he was maybe 22 and uh but but he was so he was so
nice to us and so kind to us and found us a mechanic in rapid city and and then found us a tow truck and
yeah you find you find the most wonderful people when when you're when you're in a place of
distress people uh people do want to take care of other people they help you yeah i want to help
and especially when you're on a road trip i i because i've taken a road trip across the united states
and there's a part of people where they they really love that they um i think part of them wants to do
that also wants to kind of escape whatever the local the struggles just whatever the mundaneness
the struggle of life are a road trip is a kind of thing where you're like you know what i'm going
to get away from it all and i'm going to experience life in the full the epic sort of jack kerouac way
of seeing america in the people not the tourist sites just the humans yeah exactly we this was not
tourist related we did of course when we stopped at mount rushmore at night which you can see nothing
yeah yeah we we thought that was hilarious you couldn't see mount rushmore that's great
it was like well we we physically were here yeah photo of us in the darkness
you could just say you went to the grand canyon too just at night uh and just visit different places
when the car broke down i love it uh so yes you took the road trip before uh finding zip two
yeah so so i had a experience in college running a house painting business that for me was my first
uh experience with success it was very very hard it was a franchise where you where they teach
you know students how to paint houses and and but i i was good at it you know i um i built a team of
30 people within after about two years and so i was like i had a taste of hey i'm not i'm not unable
to do this i'm in fact my most vulnerable place i remember as an entrepreneur was i i had uh i had
i just loved the idea of wall street and finance i was kind of allured by it this is in late 80s i'm
in high school and there was a lot of these books liars poker and others that came out i was like oh man
this is awesome these people must be amazing so i went to business school and i i busted my ass to
get like a kick-ass summer job and i got a job in one of the main banks and it was in toronto but it
was like the original wall street and i was i was so disappointed with the people that i was around i was
just like whoa i totally misunderstood what what what the banking world is it was very large bank i'm
sure if i'd gone to a more aggressive one maybe i would have had a better experience when i say
aggressive meaning someone was paying attention like this was just a uh just people kind of
showing up and not doing much you know and um and actually it's funny so this is great so the
so 1991 92 so this one of those summers uh the the but the summer job was literally you go to the
the the they print out the sales for all for all brokerage houses for the whole company like
pile of papers that's maybe four or five feet tall and you have a pencil and you add things up
using your pencil and a calculator and i i'd known about lotus one two three forever excel was coming
out and i was like hey guys you know that there's a different way to do this
and they're like don't talk to us just this is just your job yeah go do it use the pencil so i i went
to the head of the database i just asked you know because those days you had the manila envelope where
you can you just write the name of the person that you want this to go to and it'll go to them
it's like email i guess but you you there's no yeah there's no filter so if you felt there's no
spam filter so i sent a note i wrote a little nice letter to the to the database administrator who i
didn't really know and i said would you be open to me saying hi and maybe i can get access to the
file rather than print the damn thing out and use a pencil and she could respond right away and we hit
it off i mean she was great and so she's like of course you can i can't believe these guys are
doing what they're doing so um if for the first couple of weeks so that was a summer i i wrote
i wrote code in lotus123 that would um it's gonna sound crazy but you type in the date range
you type in the geography and you type in the you know which part of the bank you care about
and it will literally just create a new spreadsheet and it would just the macro would print it out
it was like a magic trick for these guys and incredible i know no it's like it's astounding
that that's i mean for me i'm like guys this is so obvious
and uh um so i did i got all that done and this job was supposed to take three or four months because
it's really you're doing this with a pencil and now i'd created this macro that you could not just
not just do it you could do it you could tweak it and say oh i want this this area of the world or
this area of um or this this month or you know that month compared to that month you know all the
normal things you could do with the spreadsheet and um the software was on a floppy disk and i was like
here's the software and just put it put it into your computer all right now now open one two three and
and it just pops up with a little box that type in your dates and you know the whole little i code a
little thing like that and um what i what i was astounded by was not not so much that it was a magic
trick it was the lack of appreciation for innovation they just looked at it they were like oh that's nice
and it's like you just we're gonna have someone spend hundreds of hours doing something and now
it's something you can do in a minute yeah if that doesn't if that doesn't move your excitement yeah
like that doesn't move your needle what the heck and so i was really disappointed with with the
banking world anyway so that that was but that was also fun such a good example though yeah and then
also see the possibility of where that goes but then so then i i i got back to business school and i
i canceled all of my business classes i possibly could but i was actually in business school so i
couldn't cancel them all all finance courses i was like i'm i'm done with that industry i'm not going
back so the the vulnerable part for me was my whole family's full of entrepreneurs and there was there's
this franchise to do house painting and i genuinely was afraid that i wouldn't be good at it and i was
like wow i really am afraid of failure it's very easy to avoid entrepreneurship but if your whole
family's entrepreneurs you and you go in and you aren't good um i was really afraid you're gonna
have to face that failure every time you meet your family yes and um it's uh it's uh our our family
are wonderful and everything but they but pretty much everyone's an entrepreneur and and of course not
everyone is perfect not everyone's you know doing it successfully all the time but when you're when
you're young and you want to prove yourself it really was putting my heart on my sleeve i started
the the the business in this part of toronto and for the first you paint the houses in the summer but
you do all your sales pre before the summer and you know all the way till april i was just not
succeeding and i was like oh i'm like oh my god i'm just i'm just gonna fail and i i remember that
i was like my my whole nervous system was like i'm a failure and i remember i had this general manager
who who you know he was like kimble you seem like you know what you're doing why are you not making
any sales and so he actually went with me on a few sales calls and i was like he's like oh you're
he was great you're doing this wrong you're doing that wrong you're doing this wrong and change those
three things and it was like a uh like a watershed moment just like all of a sudden and i just follow
the instructions of what this guy told me all of a sudden every single sale i would make well i was
like i can't believe that i it was really my my um lack of humility to learn from someone else i was
like no i'm gonna prove that i can do this without your teachings and i i was gonna fail
so to you that humility is essential for the entrepreneur especially young i would say if we if we
have an openness to learning which does require humility um you you you course correct or you help
get other people to help you course correct but it does start with humility because if you if you
try and pretend you have all the answers you don't so you went from that to founding zip 2 that was an
interesting time in the history of tech yeah well i mean what was it like you mentioned uh the first
people to look at a map uh basically a directions yeah so mapping had been on the internet but vector
based mapping to head not so that's the ability to zoom in or zoom out and it's really data versus
an image that comes across and uh we we can't went to this company called nav tech my brother and i and
we just asked for the data and they it's the silicon valley they wrote us one page letter that we had to
sign said here's all of our data that we own it you don't own it but you can use it on the internet
and if you ever make any money on it you have to call us that was it yeah all right okay that sounds
great and so we put it up on the internet and back in those days it might take 60 to 120 seconds to
actually give you an answer back but it was amazing the door-to-door directions the ability to take a map
and zoom in and zoom out uh we use these things 10 times a day now um it was amazing we were the first
two humans to see it on the internet like this stuff didn't even exist to the world like the
nav tech was building it for never lost for hertz never lost which would come out a few years later
this was not something that people knew existed this was something we discovered that it existed
and we're like well let's put it on the internet and share it with the world what did the two of you
feel like to like to see that magic did you know amazing it was like what like did you i mean the
amazing just that it's cool but also that you could see the future that this could transform
i don't think i don't think people understand before this moment you could not be told your
directions yeah you just could not like today we live in this world where we're told our directions
all the time before this moment you could not be told your directions yeah and all of a sudden
you could yeah it wasn't like a little thing yeah there's a there's a bunch of things that we
once we have we take it for granted and that takes like a day for people like transition totally
it's like boom oh okay cool exactly exactly and it's when you see maybe when you're one of the first
humans to see that thing you're like holy shit holy shit this is going to be used by everyone
all the time forever so zip2 was a success i would say it was a success but it was also
a very hard company to build and i mean it because the internet in those days was a boom time
we were being funded but you couldn't make any money and so it was actually really hard the
constant outside criticism that we aren't for real this is not going to survive this is not going to
and it it started to feel that way we're like wow man this is uh we are doing something that is
great that people are using and we were top 100 website um most of our work was through folks like
the new york times so we're even even much much busier than that but the but the um but there was just
no money in it even today go to google maps there's no money in it it's just uh it's just local search
that that is needed for everyone and it became an add-on to search but even remember in those days
you couldn't make money at search either no one had figured out adwords or anything they didn't
realize how big of a business this was but we all knew this was a thing and everyone was using it
but didn't quite know how to make money couldn't make money when we got acquired it was a bittersweet
moment because compact that owned ultra vista wanted to merge so that's sort of regular search
with the best search engine at the time pre-google with zip2 which would be the best local search and
it would be a yahoo killer and the the uh compact just wanted to make money by taking the company
public but they wouldn't give us any stock they would just they paid us cash which turned out actually
very well for us but because the whole internet bubble burst and we didn't know that at the time
and so it was bittersweet because they they essentially wanted our company with and we
were welcome to stay but uh but you don't have to right and that feeling was pretty that was pretty
rough feeling but in retrospect it opened the door to it set us set us up for an incredible
platform to go do beautiful things you've invested in x.com uh that eventually merged with paypal
that's a fascinating story there also fascinating on many levels including the fact that the the
current social media company formerly known as twitter is now called x there's a history has like a
has a rhyme to it like it's kind of all hilarious in a certain kind of way uh you invested in and
helped sell a lot of the initial products for tesla yeah i still sell on the board of tesla
tesla is 20 years now that amazing years yeah from the roadster the initial roadster to i still have
the the first business plan so i didn't join as a founder i joined as a as a founding board member
and so i actually i didn't write the business plan i got to read it and i still have that i still
have it as a part of history did you see the future at that time like the company that tesla is today
could you have possibly could you and elon imagine it no no i i um i certainly didn't what i what i
saw in it was a real for me personally i was really upset that the general motors had killed
the their ev car there's even a movie called who killed the electric car and i and i knew that the
physics of of um of electric is perfectly fine i mean there's no reason why you couldn't use an
electric car to drive around what what i what resonated with me with the with the business plan
was uh take an electric motor which is really a high performance motor and put it in a sports car
and sell it at a high price as a way to enter into the market whereas what what others had been doing
has what these general motors had done is you put it into a really crummy car and you you sell it as
a commuter vehicle that doesn't really work that well and looks ugly as well like they really did
everything they could to make that thing as ugly as sin and and then um i was like okay i get it we're
going to take a an appropriate technology and put it in an appropriate car so that when you have
because electric motors are they have constant torque you get incredible power put it in a car
that that looks like a sports car you know so we so so the the idea was to put it in the lotus elise
redesign it a bit um and um i even at that point i was like this is theoretically good
so i'm going to join and help build it but i was not convinced that it would work because because
general motors had done such a terrible job of making everyone think that these things are terrible
but but i was curious and the time that i fell in love with the company and its mission was
i was driving in in a in a what's called a mule where we we take a a uh a car and we take the engine
out and we put put in uh electric drive train and i drove it you know even the dashboards there's no
dashboard it's just like you got you got a steering wheel and it's just like wires and everything around
and i remember there's a street we were running the bay area called bing street and i was just like
no no no no traffic so i'm just gonna drive this i'm gonna floor it see what happens and it was
it was a feeling i'd never experienced before so it's not gasoline cars have an inertia to them
so you yeah this is just it was like being shot out of a cannon and okay this is gonna be real
it's a very spaceship like feeling yeah it's like whoa it's like the the g4 that pulls you back
yeah so so i was like okay this is uh this is gonna be great this is gonna be this is gonna be
an interesting we're gonna create something interesting here i think the real transformative
thing for tesla was the model three um when we were able to get the price down for um the world
no and that was also one of the most challenging oh my periods for tesla and you were done we were
borderline bankrupt like two or three times that year i mean it's just every and everyone was hating
on us about whether we'd get that done the model three today is incredibly affordable car like a
300 bucks a month kind of lease and three thousand dollars down that's where you get the scale that's
where you get people who and by the way it's a great car it's even a better model three now than
it was five years ago we we don't function the way car companies function right we we function more
like how an iphone company how apple works so our model three today is it's this year is better than
last year it's like it's way better and it's like it's and we just keep getting better and the
software is a fundamental part of the car and the software keeps improving exactly and we can we upload
over the air which was one of the things that people often acknowledge it's the over-the-air
updates yes it's like a revolutionary thing yes it's not just the autopilot to me it's like the
over-the-air updates is even bigger thing than autopilot at least in this like moment of history
because you basically turned a car into the iphone exactly it's an iphone with wheels um but actually
talking about autopilot like right after this interview i'm gonna go test out the latest model
three you're gonna get driven around by the robot i'm gonna get driven around by the car i'm gonna
say i want to go to this barbecue joint take me there and park me there and um i'm gonna see how
it is and this is our the the latest model three that we have out into production anyone can buy it
and it's super affordable and it's like okay um uh it's not you know full stop driving is is a is a
journey right it's it's it's not like there's a destination it's a journey forever so let's see
where we are on the journey today and there's been a bit of a push and pull between you and elon in
terms of levels of optimism about deadlines and so on timelines about when we'll arrive at the
destination i like that you said it's a journey yeah for elon there's a destination exactly and that
destination is tomorrow or yesterday i think that's that's a that's a really good insight i i
actually live with this concept of a growth mindset versus a fixed mindset and and it's a i don't know
philosophical term where where fixed mindset is about the destination and growth mindset is about
learning on the journey and i think that i'm a happier person because i take that learning on the
journey approach whereas it's really frustrating if you're always it has to be about the destination
every time the nice thing about destination at least from my personal perspective as like a programmer
engineer is like it's it puts a little fire under you to get shit done like if there's a clear
deadline of a destination you feel the anxiety i i would say that i still do that but i call those
forcing functions instead of destinations sure because you're just forcing people to crank on
on some code or cookbook or whatever because you have a date and and if you're really and oftentimes
there's a reason i mean it's 20th anniversary you want to get the cookbook out we have a reason
it's we didn't make this up out of thin air um and so you yeah that does push you but just because
we have the cookbook doesn't mean it's a destination it means it was a forcing function to get it out
there now we're on the journey speaking of journeys i have to ask you about spacex uh i mean
the journey that all of humanity seriously that is a book about a journey that is incredible
um it's an interesting moment in the history of humanity that perhaps hopefully will become a
multi-planetary species uh but spacex is also a company you invested in spacex you were side by side
with elon through through uh through the highs and the lows through the lows and the highs uh so
what were some memorable um challenges what were some low points sure from the history of spacex
one of the hardest times in spacex was uh we were in the mid-pacific in kwaziland and my brother had
had sold paypal he'd done well financially but in the rocket world that money goes away really
quickly and we were in this military base in kwaziland and uh i think it was the second rocket
that blew up i'm not sure but uh we didn't have infinite resources i certainly didn't have the
resources i mean i'm there to support um brotherly support but the um the so so every every rocket
launch was do or die and the first one had blown up and so the second one i think it was the second
one uh blew up and it was it was so depressing it was just like oh and there's nowhere to go you're
in the there's no there's no distraction you're just you're on this military base you don't really
socialize so it's just we're all together and i had uh i'd gotten to know you know for me i'm not
part of the team right i'm just there for emotional support or whatever because it's cool
and so i got to know this a couple of people locally and got to know this one guy who had a
mobile home um best view in the world but it's just a mobile home next uh with a patch of grass next to
it and uh i was just desperate to find food that wasn't from the cafeteria because this is the worst
food you can imagine yeah and and so he showed i met him and he showed me this little tiny little
grocery store which had a few things like canned tomatoes and not this is again you're middle of
nowhere so it's nothing fresh and i made this dish that was you know but kind of a version of a
like an italian version of chili you know just baked beans and uh sweating onions and and then
tomatoes and it was a big pot of food because it's a group of people we didn't even have a table
and we just uh put the big pot in the middle and we had our little paper plates and took a scoop as
we needed it and it was really the gathering place of like food brings people together
in the most difficult times and it was one of my favorite memories because i was able to bring my gift
to this group of incredible people um that their hearts were broken you know and to sit there and
share a meal and feel the life kind of come back into us and by the end of the night we're actually
having a good time what a fascinating contrast of rock is kind of representing the peak accomplishment
of human beings as a society and then returning to the thing that is the foundation of human society
which is that communal experience communal vulnerable connection like we mentioned vulnerability
earlier the most vulnerable place actually that's when you have some of your most beautiful meals
yeah the descendants of apes gathering around some big beans after watching a rocket explode
yeah uh what gives you hope about this the future of this whole thing we've got going on
humanity if you look at how things have changed over the past say 50 years
uh you can clearly say oh wow poverty rates have gone down um infant mortality has gone down
dramatically all these things have gone down a lot so so if you if you if you look at it on a daily
basis you can tell that life is very dramatic you know whether it's uh some some something's blowing
up on x or on some of the newspapers or whatever and you can really get caught up into it
but if you look back over over the past few decades things things are getting better and it's and i mean
at the fundamental level like are less people hungry are more uh people they are more is there are there
i mean there is war going on of course but are there less wars yes um and so i think that um
i think if if we all just step back a little bit it's it's less about hope it's more perspective and
reflection and um and if if uh uh if i if i do see a problem like in case of the obesity epidemic i work
really hard to help with that i work our non-profits called big green and we we work with 150 non-profits
around the country to help americans grow food again get connected to their food because i really
believe growing food changes your life and so okay let's let's go do that so then so i was you know
i'll help out where i think we really do can make a difference but but if you step back a little things
are are actually getting better um it's just a bumpy ride yeah and for those of us watching all of this i
think uh i would love to see more celebrating of the people that are helping um find the people that
have found their way of helping and just celebrating those people yeah well i would also actually it's a
really nice point i have learned that you really want to celebrate your successes because even in
the greater scheme of things i've learned this in the startup world where you you're constantly facing
death you know like just why should you even exist do your customers want your product or whatever
and and then something will happen where you're like wow we really nailed that that's really great
or you know got a product released or got some good kudos from something right everyone we're going to
go celebrate and and actually everyone's still like no no we've got all these other problems
nope we're going to go celebrate and then we'll go back to the problems but if you don't do that then
it starts building on this kind of you never really get to celebrate and be grateful well i think this is a
good time to go celebrate the very fact that we're alive today we get to live and enjoy this incredible life
the two of us and have this great conversation and we'll get to celebrate over some scrambled eggs
beautiful i'm going to hold you to it beautiful uh kimball thank you so much for talking today
thank you for having me thanks for listening to this conversation with kimball musk
to support this podcast please check out our sponsors in the description and now let me leave
you some words from anthony bourdain your body is not a temple it's an amusement park enjoy the ride
thank you for listening and hope to see you next time
you