I am standing on the edge of the cliff the entire night.
And if I, you know, mess something up, mess it up, like what even is a mistake?
But if I do like a little clunker or whatever it is, it's like, so what?
I like, I wouldn't have played half the stuff that I'm playing if I
wasn't constantly standing on the edge of the cliff, like wild.
Why are you standing on the edge of the cliff?
Because at the edge of the cliff is all possibilities.
The following is a conversation with Tal Wilkenfeld, a singer-songwriter,
bassist, guitarist, and a true musician who has recorded and performed with many
legendary artists, including Jeff Beck, Prince, Eric Clapton, Incubus, Herbie
Hancock, Mick Jagger, Jackson Brown, Rod Stewart, David Gilmour, Pharrell,
Hans Zimmer, and many, many more.
This was a fun and fascinating conversation.
This is the Lex Friedman Podcast.
To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description.
And now, dear friends, here's Tal Wilkenfeld.
There's a legendary video of you playing with Jeff Beck.
We're actually watching it in the background now.
So for people who don't know, Jeff is one of the greatest guitarists ever.
So you were playing with him at the 2007 Crossroads Festival, and people
should definitely watch that video.
You were killing it on the base.
Look at that face.
Were you scared?
What was that experience like?
Were you nervous?
You don't look nervous.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I wasn't nervous.
I think that you can get an adrenaline rush before a stage, which is natural,
but I think as soon as you bring fear to a bandstand, you're limiting yourself.
You're kind of like walling yourself off from everyone else.
If you're afraid, like what is there to be afraid of?
That you must be afraid of making a mistake, and therefore you're coming at
it as like a perfectionist and you can't come at music that way, or it's not going
to be as expansive and vulnerable and true.
So, no, I was excited and passionate and having the best time.
And also, the fact that he gave me this solo, the context of this performance is
that this was a guitar festival.
It's one of the biggest guitar festivals in the world because it's Eric Clapton's
festival, and there's like 400 guitarists that are all playing solos all night.
And we were like towards the end of the night, and I could tell Jeff got a kick
out of, you know, I'm not going to solo on like one of my most well-known songs,
Cosmo Benedict's Lovers.
Well, Stevie Wonder wrote it, but people know Jeff for that song and his solo on it.
Like, I'm going to give it to my bass player.
And he did, and the fact that he's like bowing, like he didn't have to do that.
But you really stepped up there.
It just, it just shows what a generous musician he is.
And that's evident in his playing across the board.
He is a generous, loving, open musician.
He's not there for himself.
He's there for the music.
And he thought, well, this would be the perfect musical thing to do.
And it kind of all started like when I went to audition for him, which was
an interesting experience because I got food poisoning on the plane.
And so like literally when the plane landed, I went straight into an
ambulance, into a hospital overnight.
The manager picked me up and I showed up at Jeff's door, which was like a three
hour drive, like through windy country roads, and he answered the door.
He's like, okay, you're ready to play.
So we went upstairs and started like rattling off the set.
And when it came to this song, Cosa Veneta's Lovers, he just said solo.
And he loved it and kept the solo in it.
So that's kind of how, cause there was no bass solo before I was playing in his band.
So this whole thing was kind of new.
So even with food poisoning, like you could step up.
Yeah.
That's just like, what?
Instinct?
It's just being able to differentiate from like the body and from like expression music.
All right.
Yeah.
You know, it's interesting.
You said fear walls you off from the other musicians.
And what are you afraid of?
You're afraid of making a mistake.
You know, Beethoven said to play a wrong note is insignificant.
To play without passion is inexcusable.
Do you think the old man had a point?
Yeah.
Different styles of music invite varying degrees of, I would say uncertainty
or unsafety in, in the way that people might perceive it.
So for instance, like the tour that I was just on, like playing Allman Brothers songs,
like I am standing on the edge of the cliff the entire night.
And if I, you know, mess something up, mess it up, like what even is a mistake?
But if I do like a little clunker or whatever it is, it's like, so what?
I like, I wouldn't have played half the stuff that I'm playing if I wasn't
constantly standing on the edge of the cliff, like wild.
And so I don't care about those few little things.
I care about the overall expression.
And then there's other gigs that, you know, for instance, if I got called for
like a pop or a country session or a show that in those environments, they
may want you to play safe, like just play the part and play it with a great
groove and time and great dynamics.
And don't really veer away from the pot and stuff.
And, and I've done plenty of those gigs too.
It's just, it's just a different like hat you put on.
What do you get from the veering, from the veering off the beaten path?
You just love it or is that going to make the performance better?
Like why, why, why are you standing at the edge of the cliff?
Because at the edge of the cliff is all possibilities and unknown.
You don't know what's coming.
And I love being there in the unknown.
Otherwise it's just like, well, why are we doing this?
Am I, am I just like a clown on stage, like showing you my skills or what, you
know, what I've studied in my bedroom and saying, no, like I, I want to be like
pure expression happening right now and responding in real time to everything
that's happening.
And anytime I'm not doing that, it's like, it's a waste of everybody's time.
Have you ever messed it up real bad?
Mess what up?
I mean, you know, comedians bomb, you're a big fan of comedy.
Yeah.
Have you ever bombed on stage?
Probably.
I think, I think it's all about recovery, you know, and the more times that you fall
off the cliff, the quickie, you know how to recover and, um, the varying ways that
you can recover to the point in which it's concealed so much that maybe a listener
might not even know that you're recovering.
And eventually you learned to fly if you take that metaphor all the way off the
cliff, you know, you learn.
I remember one time when I was really young, well, not really young, but like
when I was 21 or 22.
Yeah, exactly.
Um, but when I was first playing with Jeff Beck and we played at what I consider the
best, the coolest jazz festival, it's Montreux Jazz and like Miles played there,
everyone played there and they have the best speaker system ever.
I was excited for months and the drummer Vinny was like practicing for like eight
hours in the bus on the way there.
And everyone was like on fire on stage.
And I remember playing a note, just one note that I really didn't like.
And I let it go in the moment on stage, but as soon as I got off stage, I was really
sad.
And so I sat like on this road case, everyone was out celebrating.
I like sat on this road case with a sad face.
And then Claude Knobs, like the owner of the, you know, the whole festival came out to
me.
He's like, what's wrong?
And I'm like, I played a bad note, such a child.
And like, he said all this wise stuff that, you know, Miles Davis had imparted to him
and like, it fully cheered me up.
Um, he's like, is there anything that would make you feel better?
And I was like, caviar.
The dude came back 10 minutes later with this huge thing.
Oh, wow.
It was a joke.
It was a joke, but he actually brought me caviar.
But anyway, that's the, that's the one time that I remember being sad about a
performance.
Now I'm just like, okay, whatever.
Like it's done.
Was it a physical slip of like the fingers or was it, did you intend to play that note?
That I can't remember.
I can't remember if it was just a bad choice that I, that sounded like a clanger or why it
happened.
It was so long ago, but I, I don't get depressed about that anymore.
That'd be funny if that was like your biggest and only regret in life is that note that
haunted you in your dreams.
And then like, you know, like I'm on my deathbed and just everyone's just bringing me
caviar.
Joke went way too far.
You talked about confidence somewhere.
I don't remember where.
So I want to ask you about how much confidence it takes to be up there.
You said something that Anthony Jackson told you as encouragement, a line that I really
like that quote on your worst day, you're still a bad motherfucker.
That's actually a Steve Gad quote.
And Steve used to tell that to Anthony because Anthony used to get real depressed if he did
the wrong thing or not perfect thing.
And Steve Gad used to say this to Anthony Jackson.
And then Anthony was my first bass mentor or just mentor in general.
People don't know he's a legendary bassist.
He's a legendary bassist.
And I started playing the bass when I was 17 and I moved to New York and I met Anthony and he
started mentoring me a bit in a very not typical way.
Like he like would just sit in his car with me for hours and talk music.
You guys just listen to music and analyze it.
Exactly.
And that was the best form of learning, I think.
Just like, well, what do you perceive here?
And well, I heard this and just discussing that.
Jazz usually?
No, all styles of music.
And yeah, he told me that story about on your worst day because you know, like, yeah, even
then, like when I was like 18, 19, I get sad sometimes about performances.
Like I could have done this.
It's like, I don't do that anymore, thankfully, or I'd be miserable.
So you still, you always kind of feel pretty good.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Now I do.
Now, now it's just, I sense the body feeling fatigued, especially if it's a very long show.
Like the ones I just did with three hour shows and we did, you know, one to three hour sound
checks.
So that's a lot of physical activity every day.
Um, so I just feel the body being tired, like fatigued, the ears are fatigued.
That's about it.
I don't really reflect on the show much.
You're almost like from a third person perspective, feel the body get tired and just accept it.
Yeah.
I don't want to identify with it.
Cause then I'm like, then I'm tired, but I'm not tired.
I'm usually like energized.
It's like with the food poisoning, the mind is still capable of creative genius.
Even if the body is gone.
Yeah.
Something like that.
Yeah.
So no self critical component to the way you see your performances anymore.
There is, uh, there is critique, but not in the way that it would diminish my sense of self.
It's different.
I can just kind of look at something and be like, okay, well actually next time I'll, I'll do this
choice and this choice.
Maybe, maybe this would serve the song better.
Um, maybe this would help, uh, the groove feel more like this, but it's not like I suck because I did this
and I am a loser.
And like, do you think that's bad?
Cause I, even when I asked that question, I had a self-critical thought that, um, why'd you ask that question?
That's the wrong question.
I always have the self-critical engine running.
Is it necessarily a bad thing?
It depends if it's affecting you negatively.
What is negative anyway?
Well, if, if it brings your frequency down and you feel less joyful inside, unless you don't feel like
complete, you feel less than, less worthy of something, then you could call that bad if you aspire to not
feel that way.
Yeah.
Aspire to not feel that way in the big picture, but in the little picture, like there's a little pain is a
little pain is good.
That's fair.
So confidence, you seem like in this performance, you seem confident.
You seem to be truly walking the bad motherfucker way of life.
I kind of, a word that I prefer over confidence is trust, because I think with confidence is almost
like, there's a belief assigned to it that I am this thing that you believe in.
Whereas trust is just simply knowing that you can get up there and handle whatever is going to come
your way.
And it's more, it's more of an open feeling where it's like, yeah, I could, I could do this.
Sure.
But not like I'm a bad motherfucker.
Like, you know what I mean?
There's a, there's a huge difference because I've shared the stage with people who have a lot of
confidence and it can be like a brick wall, just like fear is a brick wall.
So the brick wall is a bad thing.
Like the thing you have with Jeff here on stage is not a brick wall.
There's no wall.
There's chemistry.
Yeah.
How can you explain that chemistry, the, the two you had?
Trust and lack of fear.
Yeah.
And also I will say, you know, that, uh, each individual has developed likes and dislikes over
their lifetime.
And that can be like, in this case, we're just talking aesthetic likes and dislikes.
So in this particular case, obviously our likes and dislikes are very much aligned such that the
things I do to compliment him, he enjoys and vice versa, but it could be two, you know, very
trusting, open, uh, musicians on stage that don't have walls up, but their choices are very
different.
And one person likes heavy metal and the other person likes classical.
So it's, it's gotta be both.
So you guys were good at like, yes, ending each other musically.
Like, is that where you're most at peace in a meditative way is on stage?
Um, it used to be that it would only be on stage.
It started with that.
That was almost like my way in to flow state and meditation was playing music.
And then, uh, back in the day when I kind of crash after shows, I wanted to change that.
I wanted to always feel like I'm in flow state.
So have you succeeded?
I've gotten a lot better.
I'm still obviously on the journey, but yes.
So you meditate, I think you've said somewhere that you meditate before shows or just in
general?
I meditate every day.
Um, when I'm on tour with my band, I asked that we all meditate together for at least 20
minutes and I don't dictate what, which type of meditation.
I don't put on a guided meditation because everyone has their own thing they want to do.
Maybe someone might be praying in their head.
It doesn't matter.
It's just the idea that we all put our phones down and we all are in one room connecting
energetically, spiritually, and just letting our lives go for a second.
And then we walk straight on the stage and it's always really connected.
And there were a couple of gigs where we ran out of time for that and I could tell there was a
major difference in the performance.
So it both connects you and centers you, all of those things.
Yeah.
But then when I'm home, like I love to meditate and I've tried various styles of meditation and
studied various types of things.
So I don't do just one thing.
I kind of customize it depending on where I'm at in my life.
You and the world lost Jeff back a year ago.
You told me you really miss him.
How's the pain of losing Jeff change you?
Maybe deepen your sense of the world.
You know, it's hard to accept that we won't create something musically again in this lifetime.
But in terms of the grief, grief was easier for me because I went through a major grief period in
2016 and 17.
And that was the first time I'd really gone through the process of grief in a non-family
situation, like with friends and mentors and people that I'd created with, which is different.
It's a different kind of connection.
When my grandparents died, it's like there was nothing left unsaid and I was at peace with what
was happening.
With this, when Prince died out of the blue in mid-2016 and then Leonard Cohen died in November,
that just tore me to shreds because Leonard Cohen was not just someone that profoundly inspired me
musically and lyrically, but spiritually we had a very deep connection.
And that was the basis of a lot of our conversation was spirituality.
And so at that time, I felt like a piece of me went missing.
And that was a very long process where I just stayed in my place and didn't want to play a note of music.
I kind of wanted to just get rid of all my stuff.
So I had a friend come over and he's like, you should just, why don't you come to the comedy store?
I'm like comedy store?
Like, what am I going to go, go to some store and buy clown suits?
Like, what are you talking about?
What's a comedy store?
He's like, no, no, no, like the comedy store, the place where like comedians go.
I'm like, okay, well I've, I've never seen standup.
I don't, you know, I've seen Seinfeld on TV.
That's like the extent of my standup experience.
So he took me to the comedy store and every single one of those comedians like embraced me like I was family.
It didn't even take a day.
I was like part of the family and I made like 25 best friends.
And I ended up throwing all my stuff in storage and like finding a little room to stay in where I rented my gear out.
Um, and that was me pay, my rent paying was me loaning the gear.
Cause I didn't want any, any responsibilities financial.
I just wanted to be completely free so that I could like just process it and not feel like I had to commit to anything
work wise or creatively.
I just wanted to unplug.
And so this was like a fun and very different way to unplug because, you know, previously I may have just gone to a monastery and spent, you know, weeks at a monastery or months.
But in this case, I was like, you know what, this is a different kind of experience.
I'm going to just hang out with comedians and stay in this room.
And, but no responsibility really.
Yeah.
Other than to really deeply connect with this grief that I'm experiencing, I'm not going to negate it.
I'm not, I'm, I'm going to really fully connect to it.
And I did, and it was tough.
And then, you know, more people in 2017 were leaving Greg Alm and Tom Petty.
I mean, it was like, these are people that I, I worked with all these people and like had great connections with them.
And they were all going and the world was mourning the loss of these people because of everything that they'd, they'd given to the world.
Like they'd changed the world's lives, not just mine, cause I knew them personally.
And so that was also complicated and why for me, it was, it was interesting to be grieving the loss of these musicians with comedians.
And I learned a lot.
It changed my life because I just learned to, I learned to laugh at absolutely anything, everything.
I mean, my grandpa had a really great sense of humor too.
My grandpa is a Holocaust survivor and like, he could just kind of like laugh at anything and like, so I already kind of have that in me, but being around all these comedians just kind of like exaggerated that for me.
And that really changed things for me for the better.
So then when Jeff Beck died, it was like, okay, I've got these tools.
I know what this is and I, and I'm going to go through it again and I'm going to be on tour with Incubus in two days.
And so Mike Dern from Green Day, he called me up and he said, Hey, like, I know you're going through a lot.
And I said, I don't even know what I'm going to play.
Like, I really want a vintage jazz bass for this.
And I only have a seventies one that I don't really think is appropriate.
I really need a sixties one, blah, blah, blah.
And Mike's like, I'm going to hook you up.
He showed up to my place the next day with a truckload of old P basses and jazz basses and brought them all into my studio and I'm playing them.
And then I pull one out of the case and it's, it's Olympic white, just like Jeff Beck.
And I play it.
And not only did I get goosebumps and started crying, but I looked over at Mike and same thing was happening.
And he's like, uh, I guess, I guess Jeff might, might be happy about this.
And he's like, well, you know, I didn't want to let this one go.
I was just trying to cheer you up a bit and maybe loan it to you for the tour, but if you really want it, it's yours.
And I was like, Oh my God, this is like, like, what, like Mike Dunt is the nicest guy ever.
Um, so, so that happened.
So that bass's name is Jeff and it's a white jazz bass and I played it on the Incubus tour.
But yeah, I do feel like I'm more equipped to handle grief now.
Tell me about the Comedy Store a little bit more.
Do you think, um, comedians and musicians in some deep fundamental way are made from the same cloth?
Like, are they spiritually connected somehow?
I think everyone's connected spiritually in the same way.
So I think personality wise, um, comedians and musicians are quite different actually.
In what way?
Well, you'd have to subdivide even musicians into different categories too, because, you know, the thing that I appreciate about
comedians is that, you know, you go to a restaurant with them and like all the observational humor of like, they'll just, they'll notice
everything and make you laugh about it, which a really great songwriter does the same thing too.
And my favorite lyricists like Leonard Cohen, Bob Dylan, Paul Simon, they, you know, Warren Zevon, they add comedy into their lyric.
And like, so those types of people, I would liken to hanging out with a comedian.
It's very different from like, say somebody that is an instrumental guitarist or something like that, that they're more focused on, whether it's like a
kinesthetic thing or like a physical thing or whatever it is, they're not, they're not quite doing the observational thing in the same way.
So I just appreciate like, my favorite thing to do is go out and laugh, especially cause like I can tend to be pretty analytical and be in my head.
And so anything that just kind of lets me be in my heart and just enjoy life.
I think there's a photo of you with Dave Chappelle on stage.
What was that about?
So right after Leonard Cohen passed away, the Comedy Store threw me a birthday party.
It was this crazy lineup and like, it was like, I'd play a song with my band.
And, and then Jackson Brown sat in and like, sang a song and then like Dave Chappelle came up and said some jokes.
It was like, it was like one of my favorite nights ever.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It was cool.
It was, it was a very healing birthday party.
Yeah.
There's something magical about that place.
Yeah.
It's really special.
Yeah.
Well, the mothership has some magic to it too.
It's really cool.
It's different, totally different vibe, but like super awesome.
You said that Leonard Cohen is a songwriting inspiration of yours.
I saw you perform a song, Chelsea Hotel, brilliantly on the internet.
It's about, for people who don't know, his love affair with Janet Joplin.
How does that song make you feel?
Great.
I love that song.
Which aspect?
Musically, the melancholy feeling, the hopeful feeling, the cocky feeling, all of it.
Like every single line has a different feeling to it really.
Yeah.
But as a whole piece, I appreciate it so much.
I actually lived at the Chelsea Hotel and when, when Leonard and I first met, that was one of the first things we talked about was the, you know, I lived there.
Where all that stuff went down before they tore it apart.
And, um, yeah, it's just a beautiful song.
You know, what makes me sad, the way it ends, I don't mean to suggest that I loved you the best.
I can't keep track of each fallen Robin.
I remember you well in the Chelsea Hotel, that's all.
I don't even think of you that often.
You know, that line, I don't even think of you that often.
Always like breaks my heart for some reason, like how ephemeral, how short lasting, like certain love affairs can be just kind of like, huh?
Yeah.
Do you think he meant it?
I always think he doesn't, he's trying to convince himself of it.
It could be both or either, you know?
I mean, that's the beautiful thing about poetry and lyric is that it's supposed to be open.
Yeah.
I wonder if it's also open to him depending on the day, you know?
Definitely.
I mean, the thing that he taught me, um, or his advice to me was when you're writing a song, look at it the next morning, like just first thing and read it.
And then take a walk, smoke a joint, read it again, go have a fight with your, you know, daughter, come back, read it again, get drunk, read it again, wait a week, read it again.
Just so that, you know, from every state and every position that you, the wider the lens is going to be from an audience perspective, you want things to mean multiple things.
Uh, so there's one line I read somewhere that he regrets putting in the song.
So I've got to ask you about it.
It's pretty edgy.
It's about, uh, giving me head on the unmade bed.
Yeah.
You think that's a good line or bad line?
I think it's an amazing line.
It's one of the best lines in the song.
Yeah.
Right.
When he put that song out, obviously he didn't regret it or he wouldn't have put that lyric in the song.
I think what happened was that eventually word got out either from him or from somebody else that the song was about Janis Joplin.
And so at that point he regretted the indiscretion.
So it wasn't that he regretted how great the line was.
It was just, you know, the privacy factor.
But then again, Leonard's known for rewriting his lyrics in his live shows.
You'll see a bunch of songs where it's like new lyrics and he didn't do it cause he didn't like the old lyrics.
He just did it because he could, cause he's Leonard and it's like, why not have fun with words the way musicians have fun, you know, improvising solos on stage.
And he could have changed that line in Chelsea hotel after in retrospect.
And he never did.
I remember you well in the Chelsea hotel.
You were talking so brave and so sweet, giving me head on the unmade bed while the limousines wait in the street.
It's so powerful.
It's a powerful line.
It just kind of shocks you.
Well, that's what's so great about it.
Yeah.
But also heartbreaking because it doesn't last, especially actually to me, it has more meaning once you know it's Janis Joplin.
It's like, okay, these two stars kind of collided for a time.
Yeah.
But, but what, why is it heartbreaking?
It could also be just beautiful that they had a little fling.
Yeah.
Everything's beautiful.
Thank you.
Even the dark stuff, what's not beautiful.
Everything is beautiful.
If you, if you look long enough and deeply enough, what were we saying?
Oh, uh, what do you think about Hallelujah?
Like what, what do you think about the different, different songs of his and why'd you choose Chelsea hotel to perform?
Because I lived there and it was like, it meant something to me to sing, to sing that song.
And, uh, actually when I put that song out on YouTube, that's when he sent me an email.
He's like, Hey, do you want to, you want to come over?
And this is how you guys connected?
No, we met in a rehearsal studio.
I ended up watching their whole rehearsal and sitting there next to Roshi, his like 105 year old monk, which was really great.
I remember when I was like shaking his hand, like, like, so I was like, it was just me and Roshi on the couch watching Leonard with his band and we shaking hands and he grips my hand like this.
So it like, doesn't let it go.
And he said, he looked at my eyes, he said, where are you?
And I said, in the handshake.
Yes.
Wow.
You passed the test, passed the Roshi test.
And then what's funny was that the next thing that happened about five minutes later was Leonard Cohen got down on his knees and opened up a jar.
I'm not kidding you, of caviar.
This is not a callback.
Well, it is in a way, in a deep, deep fundamental way.
He started feeding the monk caviar and that healed my Montreux jazz festival sadness forever.
The end.
Do you think there's a kind of like weird, like there's a sense of humor to it all somehow?
Like, like, why does that happen?
Why, why does that happen?
Why, like, why stuff like that happens or that the Jeff bass speaks to you?
Why, why do we need to know?
You believe in that stuff?
In what stuff?
That there's a rhyme to the whole thing somehow.
Like there's a frequency to which magical things of that nature can happen.
I'm divided about that answer because I think just things are flowing.
I don't necessarily, I don't think anything's kind of like planned out.
Like, uh, through time, it's like an orchestra playing of different experiences and circumstances that are somehow connected.
I think everything's connected.
So, yes.
But predetermined means like...
I don't believe in the predetermined stuff necessarily, which is different from whatever your, your previous comma is.
And comma is a whole other kind of conversation.
I don't mean comma as in like good comma, bad comma, just comma meaning the collection of things you've acquired over this lifetime or other lifetimes.
Just whatever that, whatever that is, is going to influence your future.
Well, you had a really interesting trajectory through life.
Maybe I just read it that way because I've had a lot of stuff happen to me that's like lucky, feels lucky.
And sometimes I wonder like, huh, this is weird.
It does feel like the universe just kind of throws stuff at you with a chuckle.
I don't know.
Not you, the proverbial you, one.
Yeah.
You said you sometimes watch classic movies to inspire your songwriting and you mentioned watching Taxi Driver.
I love that movie.
And I think you mentioned that you wrote a love song based on that movie.
So Travis Bickle, for people who don't know, is a taxi driver and he's deeply lonely.
What do you think about that kind of loneliness?
I think that loneliness is a product of feeling separate from the world.
And separate from others.
And that the less you experience that separation, the less you'll feel lonely.
How often have you felt lonely in this way?
Separated from the rest of the world?
It's less and less every single year.
Because I work very hard at it.
Feeling what?
A part of the world.
Yeah, just meditating and studying scriptures.
Don't you think that, I mean, isn't there a fundamental loneliness to the human experience?
In what sense?
That all the struggles, all the suffering you experience is really experienced by you alone?
Is it?
Maybe at the very bottom it's not.
It's kind of all the same stuff.
You didn't feel alone in 2016, 2017?
I felt like I lost a piece of myself that I had given to somebody else.
And I feel like people feel that in romantic exchanges, whether it's long-term, short-term.
You give a piece of yourself and then if that person dies or you break up with that person, you feel like you've lost that piece of yourself.
Which I feel like is a very different experience than if you just are opening yourself rather than giving a piece of yourself.
You're just opening yourself to somebody or something.
So opening is fundamentally not a lonely experience?
No, it's a loving experience.
And then losing a piece of yourself can be?
Yeah, because you can't really, you can't lose a piece of yourself if you are the same self as every other self.
Right, right.
So if you see yourself as together with everybody, then there's no losing.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
It's a beautiful way to look at it.
You said that there's something healing about being in an empty hotel room with no attachments except your suitcase.
You know, a lot of people talk about hotel rooms being a fundamentally lonely experience, but you're saying it's healing.
Yeah, because I just get to sit there and not worry about all this stuff, these meaningless attachments.
I've got my suitcase with my necessities, or my three suitcases sometimes, and I can just sit there and meditate and just be with myself.
And it's so awesome.
And usually like you plan your touring for like, you know, you kind of get the business aspect of things taken care of in advance so you can kind of just really be flowing day to day on a tour.
And it's a great feeling.
It's funny because this last tour that I did, we didn't have hotels every night.
We had hotels maybe like once a week.
And I hadn't done that before.
Usually I'm frequently in hotels, so I didn't get that space that I'm really used to getting.
You missed them.
I very much missed it and had to be very creative.
And I ended up like going into the back lounge when everyone was asleep and like meditating back there or like before everyone woke up.
And I actually like joined, there was like an online meditation retreat that was happening.
It was like 12 hours a day of silent meditations that happens once a year.
And I love this, this particular group of people and they knew I was on tour.
So they're like, just join when you can.
And so I was on the tour doing the meditation retreat at the same time.
It was so fun.
It was so fun because I was like in the back lounge, the bus is like moving around like this.
My laptop, the zoom is like, and I'm just like sitting, like meditating.
It was like, yeah, this is the shit.
So they're all connected to zoom and just doing some 12, 12 hours a day.
Yeah, that's cool.
These particular retreats that I started doing, it's not straight silent.
There are, you know, silent sits every hour for 50 minutes and then there's some talks and like these people that I've been working with are really cool because they're integrating, um, spiral dynamics into Zen.
And it's like the coolest combination with spiral dynamics like Ken Wilber.
Do you know Ken Wilber integral theory?
Yes.
Can you explain a little bit?
So he, I vaguely know him because of kind of this notion that everything is one, like everything is integrated, that every field has truths and falsehoods and we should integrate the truths.
Yeah.
It's hard to explain how it applies to this type of meditation because it's in the, the guided parts of the meditation that this whole like holonic theory is like brought in about like transcending and including every aspect of your being.
Um, because he talks about like levels of development and like it in consciousness and how like this applies to like every single religion or non religion that there are these levels of development and from all the go all the way up to enlightenment in no matter what you start off with.
It could be, you know, Christianity, Buddhism, Vedanta doesn't matter, like anything.
Then I just like, I like it when everything is and everyone is taken into account.
It doesn't matter where you're coming from, that there is a way to, to be self realized, self actualized.
There are self actualized beings from all walks of life with very, very different paths.
There's no one path.
I mean, in this particular retreat I do, there's like a lot of silent sits and then there's some guided meditations.
Um, but this, I've tried a lot of different avenues and they're all great.
So I wouldn't just say, just try this one thing.
Like I've studied like the Upanishads, like with Vedanta teachers and like gone through those texts for months and months and stayed at monasteries and like how they break it down makes total sense to my mind and heart and like my, more importantly than my mind, like my inner knowing, like it resonates.
Inner knowing.
Yeah, because like your mind is like the thinking tool.
Like it's, it's not you, you're not your mind, you're not your thoughts, you're not your body, you know?
So it's like just the you, like that knowing that you have, that's kind of when something resonates there, that's usually when you go with something.
What's living in a monastery like?
It's the best.
What are we talking about?
Like what?
It's just an empty room with like a tiny single bed and a sheet and a pillow and that's it.
That's it.
You have to eat the same thing as everyone.
What's the food like?
What is it?
Very plain, cheap, basic food, which is, you know, funny for someone like me because I'm, I'm, I'm pretty particular about my diet.
You brought over like, like 20 different ingredients.
Yeah.
So what was the like day in the life of Tal at a monastery?
You wake up at 5am to the bell and you go and meditate like constantly till bedtime other than two meals.
How are you sitting?
Are you in a group?
Is there other people there and you're just sitting there?
Well, if you're talking about the Zen monastery, because I stayed at a Zen monastery.
Um, and I did a thing with that, um, the guy was telling you about that kind of, uh, the integral Zen thing where he uses Ken Wilbur's work in combination with Zen.
That that's a little bit different cause he does talks.
We talk about things.
Um, and that's very separate from the monastery, like the Vedanta monasteries I've stayed at, which there's very little meditation in terms of sitting silently.
Instead we are meditating on the scriptures, like the Upanishads and we're like diving into that.
What were the differences that take us from the experiences, the two different, the integral one and the, uh, the meditating on the scriptures?
They both incredibly have been incredibly helpful to me because the Vedanta, um,
anytime I go into my head about something, the, the, the answer is there based on this knowledge and with the Zen monastery, it's like, you just got to put your, your butt in the seat and sit and wait and maybe something will happen.
Maybe it won't, but just keep sitting and it's very disciplined and you go through a lot.
Your body's purging a lot.
There's, there's a lot and you don't necessarily have the answers as to what is happening.
And so I think for somebody like me, I need both.
I need to be in a place where there's complete uncertainty, but complete discipline and just doing the regimented thing.
And then there's the me that feels very satisfied from an analytical standpoint, understanding what's happening.
Like what, what is the gross and the subtle body and the, you know, like I want to understand these things about what it is to be a human.
So I, I like them both.
Understand what it means to be a human.
So that like having that patience and just sitting with yourself helps you do that.
Yes.
More so like the analysis part.
Oh, so the analysis, the actual, okay, got it.
But sitting with yourself, there's no better education of like facing every demon and it's all going to come out and it's not going to be pretty.
But then there's, there's things that happen on the other side of it that are so profound.
Have you met most of your demons?
I've met the demons that have come out.
Oh, there might be more.
Who knows?
Yeah.
Well, to be continued, what, uh, since, since I think I, I, I, I heard you say that you wrote a love song after Taxi Driver, what, uh, kind of love songs do you write more of?
Broken.
So you're a songwriter first for people who don't know.
They might think you're primarily a bassist, but you're, so do you write mostly broken heart ones or like hopeful?
Love songs, in love songs, about to be in love songs, soon to fall in love songs?
Um, well, the last album I put out, that is pretty self explanatory as to what that is.
Um, a lot of pain though.
There was, yeah.
Some of it was storytelling and some of it was real experience and it's always like a combination of, of things like what I, I serve the song.
So sometimes you use your own, uh, life experience to tell a song.
And sometimes you may watch a movie and part of that script, uh, merges with your own experience and that tells the right story for the point you're trying to make in the song.
So it's, it varies from song to song, like in terms of how, like, what a biographical it is.
Yeah.
I was at the end of the taxi driver when, um, what's her name?
Betsy, because Travis becomes a hero.
She tries to get with him and he rejects her.
Oh, so that was powerful.
My favorite love songs are the ones where you're not sure it's about romantic love or love of God or love of life or just pure, just love.
Like I was thinking like George Harrison writes songs like that.
Like what is life or like Bob Dylan song that George Harrison covered, if not for you.
Yeah.
Just grateful, grateful for his love.
Yeah, right.
That's kind of like where, well, what I'm experiencing now.
And so who knows what'll end up coming out, but you've been writing this kind of, yeah, I've been writing a little bit.
I don't have like an intention of like putting something out in, in, in any particular timeframe, but I'm just writing and letting things flow.
And yeah, I love, there's like a bunch of like Leonard Cohen songs too, where you're like, there's so many ways to interpret this song and there's so many ways.
I just love songs that don't, aren't like, so like specifically about one thing.
You know, I, I really love the song to play it, to listen to Wonderful Tonight by Eric Clapton.
And I thought it was pretty straightforward.
And then I had a conversation with Eric Weinstein, who's a mutual friend of ours.
And he told me, it's not about what I thought it's about.
Oh yeah.
What did he say?
It's a more complicated story.
It's, it's actually a man.
So Wonderful Tonight is a story about a man being, just finding his wife beautiful and appreciating it throughout.
But he said it was actually a man missing his wife, is imagining, uh, that she's lost because of the decisions he's made in his life.
So it's pain.
And he had a long, beautiful, Eric Weinstein-like explanation of why.
I love this.
Have you and Eric played music?
No, we've just hung out and had very long conversations about everything.
He's a bit of a musician, you know?
Yeah.
Okay.
You picked up the guitar when you were 14.
Let's go back.
And one interesting thing that just jumped out at me is you said you learned how to practice in your head because you only had 30 minutes.
Your parents would only let you practice for 30 minutes.
Yeah.
I read somewhere that Coltrane did the same.
He was not the practice part, but he was able to play instruments in his head as a way to like think through different lines, different musical thoughts, that kind of stuff.
I just, um, maybe, can you tell the story of that?
Yeah, I just grew up in a environment that was focused on academia and I fell in love with guitar and really just wanted.
The focus to be that.
Um, so my limit was 30 minutes a day for, I don't even remember how many times a week, might've been every day or five days a week, whatever.
So your parents didn't want you to play more than that?
Um, no.
And so I just learned how to visualize the fretboard in my head and I'd practice all day in my head.
It's kind of like, you know, the, the, uh, the Queen's Gambit, the TV show with Anya Taylor-Joy and she just like sees it on the ceiling.
I used to do that with the fretboard.
Yeah.
Just practice.
And I actually recommend it to every musician because if you're just practicing here, uh, you don't know what is more dominant necessarily.
Is it this or is it your motor skills?
If you just take that away and do it here, you know, you've got it.
So I'm glad that that happened and that I learned how to do that.
And in terms of like learning fast, cause like I had to like learn how to, well, I had to try to absorb a lot of information in a short amount of time when I did have the instrument.
I kind of would like do things in bursts, like even in that half an hour, I would just go like play for a couple of
minutes and then I'd stop for like a minute and then I'd do it again.
And I noticed there was like a huge difference between the first time and the second time.
Whereas if I just kept repeating stuff, it would be like much slower.
Well, what did you do in that minute?
Just hang out.
Just integrate?
Yeah.
I just like my brain is like, my brain was telling me like, just chill out for a sec.
That's enough information.
Let me, let me take a second to integrate that.
Yeah.
That's what, at least what it felt like to me.
And the most hilarious thing happened a couple months ago.
I know you're friends with Andrew Huberman.
So he put out some clip, which was a part of one of his podcasts about learning.
And he said that there was some research done on learning fast and that if you practice something for, you know, a minute or so, and then you let your brain rest for 30 seconds.
Or a minute that in that 30 seconds or a minute, your brain does the repetition 20 to 30 times faster and in reverse.
And I was like, whoa, that's so cool.
Cause that's what I used to do when I was a kid.
Like now there's science that proves that, which is really cool for, you know, for musicians to know that, that that's a good way to practice efficiently.
Cause you know, like some musicians, they're like practicing for six, seven, eight hours a day.
I've never done that.
I've never practiced more than an hour a day, even now.
Like I've just, just that's my technique and it works.
Are you also practicing in your head sometimes?
Now I'm not practicing as much.
I'm more always writing songs in my head.
So that's why I like silence.
That's why I love being in the empty hotel room and being alone or, you know, songs come to me while I'm showering or walking around doing the dishes.
Or occasionally when I'm hanging out with friends or like comedians and people just like say shit and I'll be like, that's a cool line.
Just like jot it down my phone.
So it's not always musical.
It's sometimes lyrical.
It's more lyrical than musical now.
Because it's like, for me, it's like, well, there's so much music in the world.
If I'm going to write a song, I want, I want the song to be about something interesting.
And so yeah, the words matter to me.
Yeah.
And the right work and to have so much power.
It's crazy.
Like we said, with Leonard Cohen, and then they're often simple.
The really powerful ones are simple.
And like you, when you mentioned Hallelujah, you know, he wrote like 80 verses to Hallelujah before he narrowed it down to like four and it took him like 15, 20 years to write that song.
So some writers will do that, like, and then other writers just vomited out and it's, and it's beautiful.
Like I've heard that Bob Dylan or Joni Mitchell, they're like, they're fast writers.
They just kind of just kind of comes out.
That makes me feel so good to know Leonard Cohen wrote so many verses of that.
Like that, that was, uh, that was so deliberately crafted, extensively, rigorously crafted.
He just would spend months and years and constantly refining, refining.
You have songs like that for yourself?
Or are you refining for many years?
It's song dependent.
Some just flow out and it's like, Oh, there it is.
Everything's there.
And then other songs, it's like, you might have started it with music and there's some words that come out and then trying to fill in the rest of the words.
Sometimes it can be like a square peg in a round hole and other times it's like, Oh no, I can, you know, it, it, it depends.
Sometimes it becomes like a math problem and hopefully it doesn't.
Cause you just want to say what's right for the song.
And usually when you, you know, write it all together, like the lyric and the melody and the chords and everything's kind of developing at once, at least for the first draft.
That's very, very helpful.
Like Sondheim used to write like that, just like he wouldn't move on until like he would just go this way.
Whereas for me, it's just like, I'll just go with what seems to be coming naturally and I'll just let it be what it is.
And then you come back and you say, okay, well, what, what, what do I have to do to this now?
Look, what's needed.
Just to linger on the learning process.
Um, what would you recommend for young musicians and how to get good?
What are the different paths a person can take to understand it deeply enough to create something special?
I think first and foremost, understanding why you are playing music.
If it's because you have something that you're trying to express or that you're just in love with expression itself, with art itself.
Those are great reasons, um, to, to start this journey.
The why should be.
I think the why is really important because it's a jagged lifestyle and there's a lot in it.
And so if you don't have your purpose, if you're not centered in your purpose, then all that, that jagged lifestyle is probably going to get to you.
Jagged?
It's jagged.
Yeah, it's jagged.
It's, it's all over the place.
It's uncertain.
It's one thing, one moment and a completely different thing, another moment.
You never know what's going to happen.
And if you thrive on variety, which I love variety, um, then it's, it's perfect, but also every human being needs a certain amount of certainty and structure.
And so it's, the certainty can come from your inner knowing, knowing that you're doing exactly what you want to be doing and knowing what your purpose is in doing it in this expression.
Otherwise you're just kind of like a leaf blowing in the wind.
Like in the early days touring, just playing clubs seems like tough.
Yeah.
It's a lot.
Yeah.
It's a lot of like the physical labor aspect of it is really hard.
Playing on stage to two people or 2000 or 20,000, that doesn't make a difference.
I mean, it makes a difference to the ticket sales, which informs how, what level of luxury you might have on the road or not.
But other than that, it's just people there listening to music.
The music doesn't change.
Does it make it tough for almost two people versus 200?
No.
So even if nobody recognizes whatever the thing you're doing.
No, because the, the ideas to be doing, like having a great conversation on stage.
The audience can come and go.
Yeah.
I mean, I always was like it, like there's certain points in shows where I I'm just like, I consciously I'm like, oh yes, there's an audience over there.
Cause I'm so like wrapped up in whatever's happening on stage.
You forget yourself.
Well, maybe I'm remembering myself.
Oh, damn.
Call back somehow.
Feels like one.
Okay.
Uh, you think every instrument is its own journey is you play guitar, you play bass, you sing just the mastery of an instrument or let's avoid the word mastery.
The understanding of an instrument is its own thing.
Are they somehow like physical manifestations of the same thing?
It's both, you know, like every instrument has its strengths, beauty, limitations, range, like possible range that can, you know, be extended to some degree or another, depending on who you are.
Like trumpet or something, you know, like certain people can hit higher notes than others, blah, blah, blah.
But, um, that being said, we're all playing the same 12 or 24, however you divide the octave that many notes, you know, we're all playing the same notes.
So in that sense, it's all the same thing.
It's just music or better yet.
It's just art or expression, but yeah, every instrument has, you know, you got to go through the, the physical, the physical aspects of it, the motor skills and all of that.
And hopefully you get through that really quickly so you can get to the expression quickly, because if you get stuck in just that first phase, that'd be really boring.
Yeah, but that's a, that's a pretty long phase.
The technical, the technical skill required to really play an instrument.
For some people it's a long thing and some people it's short.
It very, very much varies.
It might have to do with like how you learn, um, and getting to know like your strengths in learning, like more oral or more like, is it more like, like what's, what's your strength and playing off of those strengths.
So for me, like it was like, like I was saying earlier, it was just an intuitive thing that I knew I can feel when my brain is full.
Like that it needs processing time.
And so I listened to that.
I don't push past it.
Uh, even if it's like one minute and I do something, I'm like, okay, silence.
And then I come back in it and I trust that it's going to be there and is there.
So just trusting yourself, I think is really important.
Trusting that, you know, you better than anybody else is going to know you.
So that's the kind of thing with, with teachers that can be either really, really helpful and great or really not great.
Like I'm primarily self-taught.
I've had amazing mentors of all walks of life.
And I think I'm unbelievably blessed that my mentors are some of my favorite musicians on earth, whether it's Leonard Cohen or Jeff Beck or Wayne Shorter, whoever these people are, like they are my favorite musicians.
So not everyone has that opportunity, but what the opportunity that we have now that I didn't have when I was starting is that everything's on YouTube.
Like every interview with every genius, like you, you don't need to necessarily have these people in person now.
I mean, it, and then I'll say to that, yes and no, I, I agree with myself and then I don't agree with myself.
And, and the reason is I do believe that there is something that happens when you're in person with a master.
Um, in some cases that there is something transferred that is not intellectual, it's not spoken as something else that happens that can happen at that I've experienced.
And, um, I really value that.
And I think that applies to specific disciplines and also generally, like I've been around Olympic gold medalists just to hang out with them for several days and there's something, there's something about greatness.
There's a way about them that kind of permeates the space around them.
You kind of learn something from it, even if you don't practice that particular discipline, there's something to it if you're, if you're able to see it.
I also like what you said about the playing stuff in your head, that it forces you to not be, um, lost in the, in the physical learning of the instrument.
I think that's one of the things I probably regret a little bit.
So I play both piano and guitar and I've become quite over the years technically proficient at the instruments, but I think my mind is underdeveloped because of that.
Meaning like, I can't really, like, um, I can feel the music when it's created, but I can't create out of the feeling.
I haven't practiced the, uh, projecting the feeling onto the music, you know what I mean?
And I'm not like a musician, but I'm just, it's, it's a different muscle that I think is, if you really want to create beautiful things, you have to, the creation happens here and not with your hands.
I think it's more here.
Or whichever, it's some part of the body, but it's not with your fingers.
Yeah.
Cause I think the fingers is more this.
Sure.
And then.
Yes.
Yeah.
It's here.
Yeah.
And it's just nice that you said that cause it, um, it's probably really, it's really good advice.
If you want to create.
Yeah.
Slowing down is really great too.
What do you mean slowing down?
Slowing everything down.
It could be, you know, I can play something really fast, but I may want to like practice it.
Yeah.
Let's see.
Like.
Go slow as possible.
Cause there's all these micro movements and that are happening that if you just go like you, you can't pay as close attention to the exact tone that you're pulling from
each note.
And there's a lot to pay attention to, to how my fingers are touching the string here.
Like I can change my tone a million ways just by the direction of this finger and same with how this lands and how hard I'm attacking the string.
And with what intention am I hitting the string emotionally, physically.
And so even if you can go, play that so slow, see how locked into a pocket you can be.
See how you like, feel every aspect of that.
Cause then when it gets sped up is still there with you.
Yeah, that's brilliant.
It's kind of like the transcended and included thing that Ken Wilber talks about.
Like it's like, and I guess that's what meditation can do for you is to like really listen to you, like observe every aspect of your body, the breath.
And all this here, you're observing every element, like every super detailed element of playing a single note.
Yeah.
That's cool that if you speed it up, it's still there with you.
It is.
Yeah, it is.
Cause I hear, there are certain people, it's like they play really fast, but I don't hear the fullness of tone always.
And it's like, well, it's probably cause maybe they didn't, maybe it's cause they didn't slow it down and really sit with each note and let it like resonate through their whole being.
It's spiritual.
It's like a spiritual expression.
It's not just like, you know, it's not, it's not a sport.
A lot of people treat music like a sport.
Yeah.
Since starting to learn more like Stevie Yvonne versus Jimi Hendrix, I would spend quite a long time on single notes.
So just bending, just like, just listening to what you can do with bends, spending, just thinking like people like BB King and all these blues musicians, like spend a career just making a single note cry.
Yeah.
There's like an art form to that.
Yeah.
And I think you putting it, like taking it really slow, which I never really thought of, is a really good idea.
Like really slow it down.
That's the same with like sitting with your own emotions.
It's like we, when emotions are overwhelming to us, we get real busy or move real fast.
Cause it's like, we don't want to feel our feelings.
Those are the moments to slow yourself down and observe it.
Anger, jealousy, and just be with it.
Just be with it.
Be like, be cool with it.
Like love it.
Love the anger.
It's all beautiful.
Can you educate me on the difference between bass?
Bass and bass.
Okay.
Well, one is a fish.
At least I pronounced it correctly.
That's good.
It's all about the bass.
Can you pronounce my name?
Tall.
Wow.
Most people say towel.
Towel.
Or tall.
You said tall.
Who says tall?
Like so many people.
In the South, maybe.
I don't know.
But the fact that you said my name right, you get extra points.
Tall.
I didn't know this was a game.
Am I winning?
Yeah.
I like winning.
How do you play the bass?
What's the difference between fingerstyle and slap?
Slap is like this.
Fingerstyle is like this.
Have you ever played bass with a pick?
Yeah.
Sometimes.
I'm not accusing you of anything.
No accusation taken.
I don't know if these are sensitive topics.
Like if...
That would be pretty hilarious if I was sensitive about bass techniques, but like not about
like love.
It just looks so cool to like slap it.
And I don't understand what that's about.
Like that thumb thing that...
Yeah.
I slap less.
A lot less.
Almost never, actually.
It has a very distinctive sound and does a very distinctive thing to a song that is not
something I hear needed very often in music today.
Yeah.
But in certain styles, like funk, it sounds awesome and it makes sense.
It was something that was a bit overused at one point.
For instance, like my mentor Anthony Jackson, he refused to slap.
Like he actually said, if you want me to slap, I'll leave this gig.
So I'm not like that.
See, that's why I said...
See, I was like reading into it.
Cause he was, he's sensitive about it.
I was feeling the spiritual energy of the sensitivity of the topic, Anthony Jackson.
And then, I mean, I'm playing electric bass.
So generally speaking, you don't particularly want to hear electric bass on straight ahead
jazz anyway.
You want to hear an upright bass.
But if I was to play jazz on electric bass, I might even kind of stop like palm mute,
you know, like instead of going like, I might go to very...
Anything to kind of make the notes shorter and less resonant and like kind of fade away
quick because the upright does that naturally.
And I have like a different base, like a hollow body harmony that sounds closer to an upright
that I'll use in certain, like on my song Under the Sun that I put out, that was on
a harmony bass.
And it has like kind of an upright acoustic kind of tone to it, but with more sustain.
And is jazz fusion the style where you have like an electric bass?
Can you educate me?
Again, you can have both.
You can have both on, you can have either on anything.
There's no like real rules now.
I've heard you say something interesting, which is, well, a lot of things you say is
interesting.
Just one thing.
And it's what time you're leaving.
What time was that again?
Three minutes.
That it's maybe easier sometimes to define a musical genre by the don'ts than the do's.
What are the don'ts of jazz and rock?
What are the don'ts of jazz fusion?
What are the don'ts?
In any domain of life, what are the don'ts?
The don'ts is just to please leave your fear at the door.
Any do's is to be open to anything and open your ears, like respond to what's happening
now.
I think that quote you're talking about might have been more about an individual musicians
unique sound because everyone has their sound.
If they've developed their voice and they've listened to their own aesthetic preferences
of which everyone is slightly different.
Everyone has slightly different likes and dislikes.
Then you'll have a unique sound on your instrument and your unique sound is defined more by the
choices you make rather than, I mean, it's equally as defined by the choices you make
and the choices you don't make.
It's the flip side of the same coin, really.
Yeah, there's certain musicians you can just tell, it's them.
Just you hear a few notes and you're like, okay, it's them.
Tones, sometimes it's tones, sometimes it's the way they play rhythm.
Yeah, that quote you're talking about might have even had to do with someone's real limitations
on an instrument that then that would define their sound as the things that they actually
can't do versus what you're choosing to do versus not choosing to do, which is that
flip side of the same coin thing.
How many fingers you play with?
It seems like a lot of the greatest musicians aren't technically perfect.
The imperfections is the thing that makes them unique and where a lot of the creativity
comes from.
I mean, Hendrix had a lot of those things.
The way he put a thumb over the top.
Well, his hands were huge.
There was no other place for the thumb to go and it was great that he could reach the
E string and that was an advantage.
And he was a lefty playing a right and a guitar flipped, I guess.
That's weird.
That probably doesn't have much of an effect.
Maybe a spiritual one.
I don't know.
Actually, flipping a guitar is different.
It does bring out something different in you because I've done a flipped and it's like,
oh, wow.
Yeah, it's really different.
I remember talking to my osteopath about like, you know, cause there's so much weight on
this shoulder while I'm playing all the time.
And they were saying like, well, just after shows, just literally just turn it upside
down and do the exact same thing in the opposite way.
It'll like even out your body.
And I was like, oh, that's good advice.
Have you actually tried it?
Okay.
All right.
I'll write that down.
All right.
Well, do you know a guy named Davey 504?
I've heard of him.
I've recently learned of him.
He's a YouTuber and a bass player.
He's amazing.
He combines memes and also just these brilliant bass compositions and says slap like a lot.
He's big into slapping.
That's how he's the one that kind of made me realize this is a thing.
Okay.
And he also said that you're one of the best, not the best bassists in the world.
There was a bunch of his fans that wrote in.
And he analyzed the Jeff Peck thing that we watched at Crossroads is one of the greatest
solos ever, bass solos ever.
So shout out to him.
What does that make you feel like?
You're the greatest of all time.
Chocolate cookies.
Chocolate.
Is that your favorite?
I like macadamia nut.
Like if you really want to get into it with like white chocolate.
Yeah.
That's a rare one for people to say is the favorite.
Chocolate chip is just like easy.
You can kind of get them anywhere.
Yeah.
Last thing you want to be is easy in this world.
You don't want to be easy.
You said that I love rock and roll quote.
I love folk.
I love jazz.
I love Indian classical music.
I really love all kinds of music as long as it's authentic and from the heart.
So when you play rock versus jazz, you played all kinds of music.
What's the difference technically musically, spiritually for you?
Well, there's no spiritual difference.
Okay.
Cross that off the list.
But well, musically.
Yeah.
It's kind of like what we were saying earlier.
It's like each genre has its language of what makes it that genre.
And that would be a good thing to say.
It's defined by the, you know, the dos and don'ts.
Because yeah, it's like, I'm trying to think basically I put the song first and I think
of the song as the melody, the lyrics, and then the harmony and obviously the groove.
So the song goes before the genre in a sense.
Each song is like its own thing.
They're both things that are held in my mind.
It's like, okay, genre and then song, which is comprised of those basic, you know, elements.
Um, and I tend to kind of prioritize lyric because somebody is trying to express something
over music.
And so that, uh, the lyric is very, very important.
And so then the choices come from there.
It's like, okay, within the genre of X, um, this is the typical language.
And then how do I best serve this, this lyric and then where else can I pull from that might
not be in these two bags that would put a little twist on it.
So those are all the kinds of things I might be thinking about.
Um, but I don't like twists for the sake of twists either.
I like twists because I want to hear something that might be fresh, but when someone does
something just to be hip, it's annoying to me.
I think you can hear the difference.
It's like when people like, they write in odd time signatures or like they write all
these riffs just because they can, just because they have the chops to do it, or they know
how to play in 1116 and whatever, but it's like, but if it's not actually creating a
piece of music that's going to move somebody, then why are you doing it?
And so I think a lot of the questions I'm asking myself when I'm approaching a song
are mainly philosophical and aesthetic.
So you like to stand on the edge of the cliff, not for the thrill of it, but cause that's
where you find something new potentially.
Yeah.
And it's thrilling.
But you're not doing it just for the thrill.
I'm not doing it for the thrill.
It just happens to be thrilling because you can always reel it back in.
Can you though?
Yeah, you can, you can like do a totally like disciplined, like I can go into a session
and okay.
My favorite thing about going into a session with musicians that I adore is that we don't
hear the demo because if you hear a demo, you're hearing what the producer or songwriter
have already imagined that every instrument is playing.
And then it's like, well, I've already heard what you want.
Now my mind is part of my mind is focused on what I already know you want and what the
destination is going to be.
Why did you bring me in here?
I want to not hear it.
I just want you to sit at a piano and sing the song with the, I want to hear the chords
and the lyric and sit in an acoustic guitar, play it, and then let's all go in the room
and then take one, I would say 80% of the time, take one has the most gold.
And there might be like a mistake or two or someone forgot to go to the B section and
you might want to like punch that in so that you're hitting the right chord.
But all the magic is in that take.
And then sometimes it happens where it's like you go, it's like we're rehearsing and take
one, two, three, four, five, and then you're like thinking about it too much.
And then you go and you have a dinner and you come back and the next take one after
dinner is the one.
Like it's usually after there's some sort of a break that, but, but obviously there's
exceptions to that rule.
Sometimes it's take two and three.
Yeah, you said, uh, you said that this is something that surprised you about recording
with Prince is that he would just so much of it would be take one.
So quick, it would just move so quickly.
Yeah.
Well, with that particular album that we made together, it's called Welcome to a
America.
He called me up and asked me, he said, I want to make a band with you.
I'm like really inspired by what you're doing with Jeff Beck.
I want to make a trio.
Do you like the drum rolls of Jack DeJohnette was like his first question to me.
I'm like, well, yeah, who doesn't, who doesn't like Jack DeJohnette?
Like one of the greatest of all time.
And he's like, well, you know, uh, sounds like, cause we had a discussion about drum.
He said, it sounds like you're, you're kind of particular about drummers.
So why don't you find us the drummer and I'll trust you to find the drummer.
You can audition some people, send me some recordings and maybe your two favorites and
I'll pick, pick out of the two or something.
So I did that.
Went on a journey, found a couple of guys.
He picked the one we went in and, um, he basically just would be like, okay, so the A
section is going to go like this.
And then the B section, I think we're going to go to G and then the bridge.
I might go to B flat, but maybe I'll hold off and dah, dah, dah.
Okay.
Let's go.
One, two, three, four.
And then we recorded it to tape.
There was no part.
He did not want me to punch anything.
Like it was like, and there was one song called, um, same page, different book.
And, and he like talked through it just like he did.
And then he had me soloing between each phrase, like little fills.
It was like, I, I didn't know that that was going to come up.
And he loved that.
He loved that to have me on the edge of my seat, like falling off the cliff.
That was my first, like real, like falling off a cliff moment from somebody else holding
me at the edge of the cliff.
You know what I mean?
Um, now I just do it on my own cause it's so, it's so fun and it makes sense.
It's, it's the best thing for the music.
When you say punch the tape, is that when you actually record it?
Like if you record to tape and there's like, say like you hit a bum note, like to, to punch
in means to like fix that note.
Like rerecord over that one little area and punch that note in.
He didn't want that.
He like, he's like, all my favorite records, just like whatever happened, happened.
That's that moment in time.
Let's make a new moment in time.
It's great.
Nobody makes records like that anymore.
Everyone wants to like, you know, edit and edit and rerecord and this and that.
And unfortunately with a lot of music, and I'm not saying all music cause there's plenty
of great music coming out, but that there's the danger of it being flat because every
little imperfection is, is digitally removed.
Well, that's one of the promising things about AI is because it can be so perfect that the
thing will actually come back to and value about music is the imperfections that humans
can create.
Yeah.
There'll be a greater valuation of imperfections.
Yeah.
I mean, you can kind of program imperfections too.
Yeah, sure.
That's, that's also very sad, but then you get closer and closer to what it means to
be human.
And maybe there'll be AIs among us and there'll be human flawed like the rest of us.
Mortal and silly at times.
Another big sigh.
Is it fair to say that you're very melodic on bass?
Like you, there's a, you make the bass sing more than people normally do.
Is that a compliment?
Yes, I think so.
Thank you.
Moving on to the next question.
I mean, as by way of understanding, it's just, there's, there's something about the way you
play bass that just kind of pulls you in the way when you listen to somebody play a guitar,
like a guitar solo.
The thing I love about Jeff Beck is that he played the guitar like a singer.
And I think that the way that Wayne Shorter played his saxophone, it's like a singer.
And I think everyone, every musician aspires to just sound like a singer.
So you make it sing.
Let me ask you about, just come back to Hendrix.
Cause you said that you had three CDs, Jimi Hendrix, Herbie Hancock, and Rage Against
the Machine.
First of all, a great combination.
I'm a big Rage fan.
It's so funny.
Cause like when I listened to some of the music that I create, like my solo music, I'm
like, I could see how this is a combination of Herbie Hancock, Rage Against the Machine,
and Jimi Hendrix.
I hear the influences, it's funny.
Just from your musician perspective, what's interesting to you about, what really stands
out to you about Hendrix?
I just would love to hear like a real professional musician's opinion of Hendrix.
I love that he is two voices combined into one voice.
So it's like there is his voice on the guitar and there is his singing voice and there is
the combination of the two that make one voice.
And of course the third element is his songwriting.
And all of this have this beautiful chemistry and all work geniusly perfectly together.
And there's nothing like it.
And, you know, he always beat himself up about being a singer and like, he didn't like his
voice, but it's like my favorite singers are the singers that don't sound like singers.
Bob Dylan.
You like Bob Dylan.
Love Bob Dylan.
You love his voice too.
I love his voice.
Can you explain that your love affair with Bob Dylan's voice?
He's expressing his lyrics.
It's just pure expression.
Exactly what he means.
I feel everything that he's saying with 100% authenticity.
That's what I want to hear from a singer.
I don't care how many runs you can do and like, I want to believe what you're saying.
Let her cone is that.
There's countless like Neil Young.
I mean, there's so many musicians.
I love Elliot Smith for that reason.
Let me ask you about mentorship.
You said, uh, teachers and mentors.
You had mentors.
What's a good mentor for you?
Harsh or supportive?
Supportive.
Supportive.
You've seen Whiplash, the movie?
So that guy, somebody screaming at you, like kicking you off the cliff.
Not necessary.
I feel like anybody that's truly passionate about something that they want to be great
at or a master of or this and that.
They've already got that person inside their own head.
You don't need somebody else to do that for you.
I think you need love, acceptance, guidance, support, time, um, advice.
If you ask for it, just a space, just a nice open space.
All my mentors were just that for me.
They didn't tell me to do anything.
They don't care.
Like, cause they're not, they don't, why do they need to be invested in where I'm going?
Only I know where I'm going.
So for some mentor to come and be like, this is what you need to be doing in practice.
It's like, but why?
What if that's not my path?
That might be your path.
So I'm not really, again, otherwise it feels like a sport, like who can run the fastest
race and it's like, well, okay, well I get that for that, for sport.
Maybe it makes sense to have someone a bit more hardcore, but still like, I would say
athletes have the same mentality.
They've got, they've got that in them already too.
Like, so I think more like a strategic approach to mentorship works really well and mainly
just have having an open space and just being available to someone.
And kind of show that you, they see the special in you and they give you the room to develop
that special, whatever.
Exactly.
Cause if you do have that harsh critic inside you, it's like, it is nice to have somebody
that isn't like your family or someone that's not obligated in any way that just sees your
talent and they're like, yeah, I dig what you're doing.
Keep doing it.
Yeah.
It's funny that that's not always easy to come by.
Do you have any mentors?
Yeah, I've had a few recently, but for most of my life, people didn't really, you know,
very much like that too.
Like somebody to pat me on the back and say like, like see something in you of value.
Yeah.
I didn't really have that.
So do you wish you did?
Yeah.
Yeah.
But maybe the wishing that I did is the thing that made me who I am.
Not having it, the longing for that.
Maybe that's the thing that, um, helped me develop a constant sense of longing, which
I think is a way of, because I have that engine in me, it really allows me to deeply
appreciate every single moment, every single, everything that's given to me.
So like just the eternal gratitude.
So you never know which are the bad parts and the good parts.
So if you remove one thing, it might be it, uh, the whole thing might collapse.
I suppose I'm grateful for the whole thing.
That one note you screwed up so many years ago.
That might've been essential.
What about, because you do jujitsu.
Yes.
So like, are you, I don't, my dad does, my dad's super into it.
I love my dad.
He's the coolest.
Um, but no, I don't do it.
He's a, he's a blue belt right now.
Nice.
Nice.
You ever been on the mat with him?
Not yet, but I plan on it.
You should do it.
What belt are you?
Black belt.
Sick.
Do you want to go on that?
Yeah.
Right.
You got the shit talking part of jujitsu dumb.
You just have to do the technique.
But like for that, like for instance, like, do you, do you need a harsh mentor or a teacher or?
Yeah.
But like you said it really beautifully.
Like there's a, to me, I agree.
There's a difference between sport and art.
Yeah.
They overlap.
There's, you know, for sure.
But there's something about sport where like perfection is actually like perfection, perfection
is really the thing you really want to get to the technical perfection with art.
It feels like technical perfection is, um, is almost a way to get lost on the path to
wherever something unique.
So, um, but yeah, with, with sport, I definitely, and one of the kind of athletes that loves
to have like a dictatorial coach.
Yeah.
Somebody that like helps me really push myself to the limit.
But you're the one that's kind of dictating how hard you're getting pushed in a way.
Like you're choosing your mentor.
Like that whiplash video is like, he didn't ask for that, you know?
In a way he might've.
Well, maybe, maybe subconsciously.
I mean, there is.
It's a movie, so.
Next you're going to tell me they're just actors.
I mean, and, but you know, yeah.
How do we choose things?
You know, you don't always choose, but you're kind of maybe subconsciously choose.
And, and some of it, like some of the great Olympic athletes I've interacted with, their
parents for many years would force them to go to practice until they discovered the beauty
of the thing that they were doing.
And then they loved it.
So like, at which point does, uh, something that looks like abuse become like a gift,
you know, that's weird.
It's all very weird, but for you support and space to discover the thing, the voice, the
music within you.
It's my personal choice because I'm very familiar with the inner critic and I can bring
her out at any point.
I don't need help with that, you know?
Oh, so you do have, she's on call.
She was on overdrive.
That's why now I'm, I had to work on that so much.
Yeah.
You have a really happy way about you right now, the very zen.
Can I ask you about Bruce Springsteen?
Yeah, sure.
A lot of songs of his I listened to make me feel this melancholy feeling.
It's not just Bruce Springsteen, but Bruce does a lot.
What is that about songs that arouse a kind of sad feeling or longing feeling or feeling?
What is that?
What is that about us humans on the receiving end of the music?
Frequencies, each frequency does elicit a different kind of emotional response.
That is real.
You mean like on the physics aspect?
Yeah, yeah.
The physical level.
So there is that.
Combined with the right kind of lyric and the right kind of melody of the right kind
of chord will elicit a very particular kind of emotion.
And it is scientific.
It can be analyzed.
I don't particularly want to analyze it because I don't want to approach things with that
in advance.
I don't want it to inform where I'm going.
I like the feeling to lead me naturally to where I'm writing.
But yeah, there's a real chemical element to that.
And then also, like I was saying, the lyric, what it means to you.
Poetry is supposed to mean something to everybody different.
It's not supposed to mean one thing.
You can't analyze and be like, this is what this poet meant.
And like we were talking about with Leonard earlier, it's like the broader you can leave
a lyric, the better.
You can appeal to people in so many different ways.
And even to the songwriter, like I'll sing some of my songs from five years ago and I'll
be like, oh, I didn't even think that it could have meant that.
But I guess it does.
That's funny.
I'll just giggle on stage suddenly because a lyric will hit me differently from a different
new experience or something.
Have you ever cried listening to a song?
Of course.
Weep like a baby in a bathtub.
Which, who's the regular go-to then?
Leonard.
Leonard.
Yeah.
Hallelujah is a song that consistently makes me feel something.
It's holy.
His work is holy.
And if you were in his presence, I guess there was a lot to that being.
What advice would you give to young folks on how to have a life they can be part of?
Just tackle the demons as early as possible, whether it's through your art or through
meditation or through whatever it means, diaries, whatever it is.
Just walk towards the things that are scary.
Because if you don't, they'll just expand.
They become bigger.
If you avoid the demons, they become bigger.
What does that mean for you today?
Are you still missing Jeff?
I'll always miss Jeff.
But I don't feel like a piece of me is missing.
And same with Leonard.
It's that I did give them a piece of myself and maybe they gave me a piece of them that
I hold with me and I cherish.
But it doesn't feel like I'm less than or they're less than or anything's less than.
Just you learn to appreciate the impermanence of everything in life.
Impermanence of everything except for consciousness, I guess you could say is the only thing that
is permanent.
So everything else, you learn to appreciate that impermanence because the limited amount
of time in this particular body, it's enticing.
It kind of gives you a time limit, which is cool.
I like that.
So you've come to accept your own?
Yeah.
It's cool that I'm like, okay, I've got maybe this amount of time.
Who knows?
It could end today.
But if I was, yeah, if I died today, I'd be really happy with my life.
It's not like I'm like, oh, I missed out on this and that.
So you really want to make sure that every day could be your last day and you're happy
with that?
I've always lived that way.
Yeah.
I felt this way since I was in my early 20s.
I'd be like, yeah, I could die today.
Sure.
I don't want to die.
I have no reason to die.
But if I did, I know that I put my everything, all my effort and all my passion and all my
love into whatever I've already done.
So if my time's up, then my time's up.
What role does love play in this whole thing, in the human condition?
Well, love is everything.
I mean, if you define love, if you're talking about love as in romantic love or paternal
or maternal love, or if you're talking about love as in an Eastern tradition, like Vedanta,
for instance, love is consciousness.
Love is everything.
That's the only permanent thing.
Yeah.
Or if you were to come from a Zen or like a Buddhist perspective, they would say nothingness,
like emptiness is, versus fullness.
Well, those guys are really obsessed with the whole suffering thing and letting go of
it.
Yeah.
Well, I was wondering if you would do me the honor of playing a song.
Do you want a suffering song or a suffering song?
I think I would love a suffering song.
Do you want to sound check and make sure I'm not?
Sound check.
One, two.
Yeah, it sounds really good.
This one too.
All right, count me off.
Yeah.
I don't know how to count somebody off.
Where do I start?
A nine or three, two, one.
Yeah, you got it.
One, two.
One, two.
I call out to the ocean, my tears fall into the sea
for the vows that have been broken across the dunes of time repeatedly
like a knight in battered armor
I lay my sword upon the ground
because I can keep fighting these same battles
more has been lost than has been found
it's hard to feel things changing
after all's been said and done
we spend our lives rearranging
everything under the sun
I walk the same road to work each Monday
every step tears at my heel
I sleep not to dream but to forget on Sunday
I spoke just turning with the wheel
it's hard to feel things changing
after all's been said and done
we spend our lives rearranging
everything under the sun
under the sun
reaching for the sky feet buried in the ground
looking for some way out of the circle spinning round
my eyes on the horizon seeking out the light
but don't let me be lost forever in the night
because it's hard to feel things changing
after all's been said and done
we spend our lives rearranging
everything under the sun
under the sun
under the sun
you're amazing that was amazing tall thank you so much
let me try turning it to 11.
it's quite loud can you see it from the headphones it's like distorting
can you play something no
you're such a professional
I should produce your next record please
love don't rescue me
me I've got nowhere better I wanna be
I wanna be held but not beholden
stand in my ground with one eye open
and this fight doesn't quite add up
love I thought you were free
but now I'm on the hook for all you've given me
does it matter what I say or think or do
you see what you see with the lens you're looking through
this fight keeps me tied to the worst in me
and it's killing me killing me
love I'm losing my voice
you led me to believe I had a choice
but let's pause retract our claws
you could take my side while I take yours
this fight keeps me tied to the worst in me
and it's killing me
it's killing me
killing me
love come rescue me
I've got nowhere better I wanna be
this fight keeps me tied to the worst in me
and it's killing me
killing me
killing me
killing me
uh well there's nowhere else I'd rather be right now
tall thank you for this thank you for the private concert you're amazing
you really are amazing and it was a pleasure to meet you and
really a pleasure to talk to you today do I get a private concert now if you're
playing chess with yourself yeah we're out of time so we gotta go
thanks for listening to this conversation with tall wilkenfeld
to support this podcast please check out our sponsors in the description
and now let me leave you with some words from Maya Angelou
music was my refuge I could crawl into the spaces between the notes
and curl my back to loneliness thank you for listening and hope to see
you next time