When you imagine a song, is it the opening you imagine?
No, it's kind of a, it's just a, I never think opening, I never think final.
I think soundscape of how I'm feeling right now.
So it could be the middle of the song for all I know when I'm, you know, when I'm doing that.
But my process for me is very much lyrics and melody and music really come at the same time.
Like, I, by same time, I mean, I'm, I'm a, as I'm expressing, maybe, you know, I'm feeling like
Like, it's not that simple, but it's like, I'll, I'll hear it.
Like, it's like, here's all the orchestra and you're kind of just pressing all the buttons at once.
And melody in my voice is just one of those instruments.
The following is a conversation with Dan Reynolds, the lead singer of Imagine Dragons,
one of the most popular bands in the world with over 75 million records sold and with
four songs being streamed over a billion times on Spotify. Given all that, Dan is one of the most
down-to-earth, kind, thoughtful, and fascinating human beings I've ever met, grounded in part
by his lifelong struggled mental health. The darkness, the love, and the creative brilliance
are all there in this one humble mind. For this reason, and many others would became fast friends.
Plus, he recently started his journey in programming, which funny enough is where we start this
wide-ranging, deeply personal, and fun conversation. This is Alex Friedman podcast.
To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description. And now, dear friends, here's Dan
Reynolds. So we were talking offline that you're not just getting into programming.
What's the most beautiful program you've ever written? Something that brought you joy.
There's something, I really love completion. It's the reason that I'm addicted to songwriting.
I like there being nothing, and then having some blocks or tools and building them into
what you want it to look like. And then I find it incredibly rewarding to
stand back and look at what you did at the end. It could be anything for me. It was
simple to begin with as just because it's object-oriented, like making a cube move.
Like as simple as that, understanding that, and knowing that I built that and made it do that
is really rewarding. And I think it's the thing that drew me into wanting to learn more.
But as far as what is some big piece of code that I've done, absolutely not. I'm still a level
where it's more like, what is a tutorial that I followed? And then, yeah. So I can
say I'm at a level where I've done anything beautiful at all in code.
But you're also interested in potentially, like your heart is drawn to creating games.
Creating anything. And completing it. Yeah.
That's the good, the feel good as it's done. Yeah. I mean, I've been working over the last two years
with actually a team out of Kiev on, and we can get into that as a whole other story,
but on a computer game. And really, I've kept that kind of under wraps. But
yeah, we're kind of getting to a point now where we have a prototype that we can play.
And it's a lot of fun. And thankfully, all the team members are in safe places now.
Things have obviously been on hold for a little bit. But when that started,
this is when I really decided, okay, I need to understand base level coding and C-sharp.
So I'm not an idiot talking to these people. And so we've been doing that for a couple years.
So are any parallels between the final completion that you feel with programming,
which I think is a little bit more definitive. Like there's debugging, the code doesn't work,
it's messing and so on. There's the early design stages. You're not sure
like how to have functions and classes, how it's all going to work. And then it comes together.
And it's really done because it works. And there's a cube moving on the screen.
Right, right. Is there any parallels between that and music? Because
are you really ever done done with a song? It's exactly the same thing for me, just in that
it's art. I really believe that we have not fully encapsulated artists. Like when we say art,
I think most people think, okay, the medium must be painting or drawing or music or writing. But
I really believe anytime you're creating something, so engineers, for instance, you're
creating something with tools that you have. And it can be incredibly beautiful.
And so yeah, I think, and it's never done. I feel like I look at songs that I've done,
and I never felt you have to let go or I have to let go. And that's all I've,
I'm just continually making myself let go. But I look at songs that I've done and wish
I had done more or kept going down that road and what would have happened. And I'm really
contained to because of what our band is and what our fans expect. And there's so much more to it
that it's like, I'm fitting in a box always. It's like this song shouldn't be longer than
three minutes and 30 seconds. And I don't know if I remember the chorus after I heard it,
maybe I need to hear the chorus three times instead of those two times. It's like there's
certain, especially in pop music, it's really hard to... Yeah, it feels like there's confines,
even though people are like, well, there's no confines, but still everybody's writing a pop
song that's a few minutes. Are those explicit in your mind? Or are they just kind of... The gut
is, like you said, chorus. Should you have chorus once, twice, or three times? Is that a gut thing
or is that a rule thing? I think it's a rule. I mean, it's obviously a rule I impose on myself.
Nobody's in my house saying, hey, Dan, if you don't do this, I'm gonna punish you.
There's no major label president that's like, imagine Dragons needs to make pop music,
Dan. You know what I mean? My manager doesn't even tell me that. I do it because it's what I
perceive to be enjoyable. I grew up listening to a ton of pop music, and then I ended up being in
what is quote unquote a rock band, which I've never perceived it as that, but that's kind of what
the world has called it, and that's fine. So you're a prisoner of a prison that you yourself
constructed. There you go. The confines are yours. I'm a happy, I guess what I'm trying to say is
I'm a happy prisoner of the prison that I have created for myself, and I made that prison thinking
that it was a mansion. So you worked with Rick Rubin. What does Rick think about your prison?
Rick was, you know, it was interesting to hear his outside opinion when we first met because
my biggest focus for so much of my life, my biggest fear was, and this stems from I think
middle schools when it started, but everyone being in on a joke except for yourself. The thought of
thinking you're good at something and really you're terrible at it, and you're surrounded by
people who are saying, yeah, you're good at it, and then by themselves are like, he's terrible at
this, and not just in regards to music or art, but anything in life. And I think maybe from having
six older brothers, it stems from that too, like always feeling inadequate and like the annoying
younger brother, you know? But anyway, so Rick's, and that's something I've learned to let go of
is I've gotten older and had life experiences, but one of the things that Rick said really early on
that has stuck with me was he said, yeah, you know, we were resuming the first time we met.
He said, I'd really like to work with you because I feel like you don't, you're not confined to a
sound. You've done a lot of different sounds, and so it's exciting because I feel like your fans are
forgiving more than other rock bands or bands because most people when they hear, you know,
when they hear a band, it's like there's a very specific sound with it. It's like they do folk
music. Oh, they do like California rock, or they do surf, or they do, you know, like there's,
and your fans kind of want that. Like they want them to do that thing, and then they don't do it,
and sometimes that goes well, but a lot of times it doesn't. And people, you know,
critics and everybody is like, go back to the thing that you did good and do that.
Rick was felt, whether he was right or wrong, that we could do, we hop genre so much. And that's
been to our benefit and detriment, I think. Why detriment? Because people want you to be
something. It's more, you can believe it more. I, you know, it's like,
it's more authentic if you never change. I guess. I don't know. I mean, it's certainly,
it's not something I subscribe to because I create music, but I also grew up listening to a lot of
different genres. Like cats, I would listen to like Cat Stevens, and the next song would be like
Biggie, and then the next song would be Nirvana. And it was like, I like a lot of, and then Billy
Joel, and then Enya. It was like, you know what I mean? I was a product, and I was a product of
the 90s, which if you listen to 90s music, it really was a lot of reason that people say, well,
90s were terrible. Like a lot of people say that. I love the 90s or my favorite decade of music.
Was there was a lot of genre hopping, and I don't know, I love that.
She had the 90s, had the boy bands, and it had Pearl Jam and Nirvana. And it had a lot of,
like women of the 90s was probably my biggest influence. Like kind of that like angry rock
women of the 90s, like Lannis Morcette, Jag of Little Pill is one of my favorite records of all
time. The lyrics were so intimate, and I don't know if she was angry or not. Sorry if she wasn't.
Yeah, but there was an anger to it.
There was angst. Yeah, it was like angstiness. And that in hip hop of the 90s influences me,
and then my dad. So anything my dad listened to, which my dad didn't listen to any of that,
my dad listened to like Harry Nelson, The Beatles, Kat Stevens, Bob Dylan, Paul Simon,
Billy Joel. It was very much like singer-songwriter.
Do you mind if we throughout this listen to a few songs? Because you mentioned here,
Nissen, and I was actually yesterday and the day before listening to a lot of his stuff. And it's
just like, damn, he's good. And not as known as he should be. Like I was getting, do you mind if I
play? No, please. Yeah. I don't know, not to not to open this conversation with a love song.
I would like that actually, Lex. But Without You is an incredible song.
Oh man, that's, yeah. And the heartbreak in the longing.
What? He's the best to do it, in my opinion. In my opinion, he's the best to do it.
The vocal range. And just the sadness of like,
there's something, I don't even want to talk over him because this is one of my favorite songs too,
but I think people have a really good bullshit indicator. And
music, in my opinion, whenever I meet a young artist and say, well, I'm trying to make a new
band and I want to do something like how to be successful, I really think understanding that
people have a really good bullshit indicator is the most important part of being an artist.
And I'll explain what that means, at least to me. I think that in order to have success or
be a leader or whether it's an art or anything, people need to believe that you believe what
you're doing. I think the best actors, really when they're doing their thing, it's like they,
it's not acting. They're in it and it's how they feel and they're expressing that sorrow or joy
or whatever it is. Harry, for me, Harry Nelson, I just believe it. He sings that and I feel it.
And whether he's the greatest bullshit of all time or I don't think that's the case,
I think he probably was singing that song and he just could transport himself to wherever he was.
It's what makes a great live act. It's what makes a great song. And someone could be the best actor
and sing that in the same timber, same EQ, same compression, same everything. And there's some
unknown there that I don't, I think hopefully it will be known at some point at some scientific
thing, but there's something there that the energy or something that people can perceive it and say,
true or false? And if it resonates as true, it's so much more meaningful and it lives on.
And if it doesn't, that for me is what is good, art or bad. For people to dispute over like,
well, sonics should sound like that's silly to me. It's like a song or even a painting.
Like it's just the truthfulness of it. Yeah, the, the truly great art goes,
has to go to that place where you really are feeling it. Like you forget that you're being
recorded. If you get there as an audience, you really are feeling it. Yeah, which I totally agree
with you. One of the things that I love about the internet is it's brought the bullshit detector of
the masses to power, which is beautiful because then the masses uplift the really authentic.
Right. And even if you didn't write the song, I think it helps a lot probably if you wrote the song.
But you know, I was, I was, I was a little bit, maybe a lot since we're in Vegas,
a little heartbroken that to find out that Elvis didn't write his songs. But I like,
for example, Rocket Man by Elton John, like to find out that Elton John didn't really know
where the words of Rocket Man came from, meaning like the depths of it. It's interesting,
but nevertheless, he's super authentic because for Elton John and for Elvis,
there's something in the, in the fun and the darkness and the entertainment of it.
Like he goes to some place in his mind that might not be deeply connected from where the lyrics
came from, but he relates it to whatever is in his mind and goes to that place emotionally.
Yeah. And, and that's what I think it is. And that's why an actor, like I said, can be
completely honest to me. Maybe they didn't write the script, but I write like, I've always written
all my own lyrics. It's a really personal thing to me. But I will say I see people all the time who
are performers like Elton John, for instance, who didn't write the lyrics that I believe that they,
it means just as much to them as what I wrote, because they find the meaning in it for themselves,
at least the greats do. And I think that that's the difference maker. And I think you can perceive,
and I'm sure you've seen art that doesn't move you, and maybe it moves someone else. But for you,
for some reason, you perceive it to be uninteresting to you. And I feel like a lot of the time,
I'm going to say that it's, of course, sonically, maybe it's uninteresting to you. But I think the
majority of the time for myself, I can find inspiration in any sonic value or painting
as long as I see it. And I feel truth from the person that created it.
Yeah. But for me, the lyrics, maybe not the entirety of the lyrics, but a few words can
do wonders to take you to a place. And sometimes those words don't need to be connected with
the other words. That's the beauty of music. They're allowed to float in the space of mixed
metaphors. Yes. They're allowed to just jump around and somehow it paints a picture without
actually, what is it, glycerine by Buescher. Right. But it's also how the person says it,
right? It's like, it's the feeling of exactly, and the same person could say that word 10 other
ways and you don't care. But someone says glycerine or whatever it is. And it's like,
oh, you know what? I feel that for some way. The way he said that, he meant it to me. You know what
I mean? No, I can't forget this evening or your faces you were leaving, but I guess that's just
the way the story goes. You always smile, but in your eyes, your sorrow shows. Yes, it shows.
Let me ask you to analyze this song. So there's a lady possibly who's leaving him. Do you think
she's leaving her or she's leaving him? And then the chorus is I can't live if living is without
you. I can't live. I can't give anymore. He's got a voice on him. Yeah, he does. And if you really,
there's been some incredible documentation on his life and the end of his life. And
so my answer to this is probably skewed based on what I've seen about his life too. But he was a
real alcoholic at the end of his life and it destroyed his voice and ended up killing him as
well. And so when I hear that, I perceive it as someone who is destructive and in a destructive
place in life and can't love someone properly. And so they can't live with them, but they can't
live without them type thing, which is really something that I really identify with. And I think
one of the struggles of life is loving yourself enough. It's forgiving yourself
for things and letting yourself love someone else. And at least when I listened to that,
I hear Harry being like, and maybe I'm wrong, but this is how I perceive it at least is
not loving himself and feeling like he's deserving of this person. Like, I have to let you go. I
hear that of course. And people say, Oh, well, he's breaking up with her. But there's so much
more complexity and nuance to the relationships and that knife. And my wife and I went through
really difficult separation. And that's, you know, a story for another day or a different question
or something. But the nuance of it makes me think of this when I hear this, which is
there's just more to being with someone or not being with someone than, Hey,
I think that person's really attractive. Or Hey, that person makes me laugh or not. Or
I love them and now I don't love them. Love is such a complex nuanced thing that a lot of times
there's just more going on behind the scenes, I think.
Yeah. On a small tangent on that, just as a curious question, have you paid any attention
to the Johnny Depp and Amber Heard trials? I have watched quite a bit of it because my wife
really loves it. And she watches it in bed at night. So it's raw. Like, to me, it's really,
because you, you've mentioned how complicated love can be. And it's, I've never seen, I don't
care about the celebrity nature of it. I don't care if it was, I don't care who it is, but it's
just laid out in such raw form, the, for the world to see it, for the world to see the toxicity,
but also the passion and, and the clearly sort of the drugs and the drinking, but also like
the longing and the dreams. And I will always be with you. I will die for you. The places,
the, the roller coaster of love, and it's all there at the end, past the end. So it's like,
I've also recently reread the rise and fall of the Third Reich about
the Hitler Nazi Germany. It's the rise and the fall. And it's interesting to look at the entirety
of that process after it's all over, many, many decades after it's all over, that book in particular
written by the person that was actually there. And so here we're seeing two people in the context
of the courtroom analyzing this rise and fall of a love affair. It's fascinating.
You know, the truth is, I was telling my wife this actually just the other day,
because she was asking me when I thought about it. It makes me really sad. It's,
it's humorous. Don't get me wrong. There's a lot of parts in it that are just really funny. Like,
but I look at it and I also see the internet, you know, someone's always the villain and
someone's the hero, which is such a funny thing. And we, we talked a little about this offline
before we got on this, but I have a real firm belief in life that it's just more complex than
you think. Always, always. And we, and Johnny, for instance, is very charismatic and, and you,
you love him and he's funny in this way. He does things and he looks certain ways and he says things.
He's just, you really love him. And I feel like, and maybe I'm wrong on this, but it looks like
the internet has really been like, Johnny is the winner. Amber is, is the villain. And I kind of
look at it. Yeah. And I kind of look at it and I feel like where any of you in their bedroom,
like where any of you there for these things, and I'm not saying one way or the other, like
the, all I see when I look at that is two people with a lot of deep seated, hurt, anger. And that
anger is so poisonous to both of them. And they're, and they're getting through it in the way that
they only know how. And I'm not saying we should, you know, we shouldn't be able to look at parts
of them and laugh about it and stuff and be virtuous or something, but just that there's not
a hero. It's more complicated. Yeah. I think, uh, unless you're, you've been living with Amber
and Johnny, you don't know. And just cause one seems more charismatic in the moment or funnier
or more believable even, doesn't mean that their truth is the truth.
And I, I feel like there's still love there too, which makes, oh, that's the hardest part. He won't
even look at her. He looks down the whole time and maybe people say, well, it's cause it's
anger or, or hurt or whatever. But I, the way that she looks and stuff, it feels, it just feels
like there's so much hurt there that it hurt, it hurts me to watch it. I just feel like, oh,
my heart just like aches for them and, and for both of them. And I don't know either of them
personally. And, you know, I don't know, just hurts. But it's, I've never, I've never seen
sort of love laid out in this raw kind of way. It makes me, uh, feel better about, like, it almost
gives you, seeing people have gone through a struggle in this sort of mundane kind of way,
gives you room to struggle yourself about the messiness of love. Like you're supposed to,
like relationship is supposed to be simple and whatever, but this like, oh man, this.
It's like art. Yeah. And, and for the record, like, I don't feel like it shouldn't be shown.
Like I think it's actually really beautiful art. And I agree. There's going to be a lot of people
who walk away from it and are changed in certain ways or look at things different. I'm not saying
it's changed in the whole world, the Johnny Depp trial, but it's art. It's just like a,
you would look at a painting and it might affect you. Um, my only commentary is more that
there's not, I think it's silly when people say who's right and who's wrong and who's the
clear villain and who's the, like we love as human. We have to have an answer for everything.
We have to put everything in a box. And it's like, well, we're looking at this and we're deciding
you're right and you're wrong. And, and I just think it's, it's silly unless it's your life.
So speaking of heroes and villains and highs and lows, you grew up in Las Vegas and you said that
Vegas is a performing town, a town of high stakes and drama and eccentricity. It's a town of high,
highs and low lows. And I'll be damned if my therapist didn't point out that correlation
out to me personally a long time ago. Uh, so to me, Vegas from the outside is romanticized
by certain movies. The lows define the beauty of this town and certain movies. So to me, Casino
was Robert De Niro, Joe Pesci and Sharon Stone, um, leaving Las Vegas with Nicholas Cage,
if you're unloading Las Vegas with, uh, uh, with the Chinese template, Hunter Stompson.
First of all, what's your favorite representation of Vegas from a darker side? And do you draw any
wisdom insight from the, the, the, the darkness, the lows and the highs from in those movies?
Or is it over romanticized? So I, I grew up in a really conservative Mormon family and Vegas was
established by the Mormons and the mob. Those were like the two very different worlds that
created what Vegas is. And if you live in Vegas, it really shows in a lot of ways because Vegas has
the, you know, the strip and the parties and the craziness, but it also has
very like neighborhoods and, and big families and conservative people and, and, and, and liberal
people living together in a really interesting way. And for me, growing up here, for instance,
was a lot of like driving on the freeway. My mom being like, children, close your eyes. There's a
naked woman on that billboard and never, okay, mom on our way to church. You know what I mean? It was
like, but also being like, whoa, this is crazy. You know what I mean? Like taking in whatever
I could when I could. So I saw, and I'm grateful for that. Like I really love that I didn't grow
up as a Mormon in, for instance, like Utah or something like the typical place, because I,
I saw both sides and I appreciated something from both sides. And now as a person now who's not
religious, but just spiritually minded, you know, I, I, I'm grateful for that divergent character,
that juxtaposition, dual edged sword that Vegas is. And I try to apply that to everything in life,
which is like Johnny Depp and the Amber. It's like, there's two sides to every story. There's
always two sides to every coin. There's always, you know, and there's something to be said for
both. Like I try to see people and even if, you know, it's just, yeah, I try to apply that to
life. As far as a movie that personifies Vegas or something in that medium that personifies Vegas
in a way that, that resonates with me. Don't say hangover. No, no, yeah. I also like, I wasn't
even allowed to watch PG 13 movies growing up. So I, a lot of the movies that you're saying,
like I, I didn't, I either didn't see, I didn't have cable television. You know, I wasn't like a
pilgrim, but I had a really, really conservative upbringing. So it didn't define your intellectual
like development? No, no, I just, I can't think of any movie that comes to mind where I'm like,
that's my Vegas movie. You know what I mean? Like I'm sure I've seen some of the movies you've said
now, but I don't, I can't think of one that I'm like actually personifies Vegas in a way
that feels honest to me. Like, or, or, or, like, wasn't there a Chevy, was there a Chevy Chase?
Yeah, yeah. I think that's maybe the only one I thought of that came to mind where I was like,
because I love Chevy Chase so much that maybe it's one of his Vegas, Vegas vacation or something.
Yeah. So, but that's more like light hearted surge, that kind of stuff.
Right. It's not like, I guess what I would say is there's no truth that has been, that I've seen
of Vegas because what I see of Vegas is there's obviously like the parties and stuff in the
nightlife, which I'm not a big party person. So I haven't really experienced much of that.
But I've also, there's also drugs and I've, I have a strange relationship with drugs because
I've lost a few friends to drug overdoses. And so I don't, that's not romantic to me.
But there's also like, yeah, I mean, you asked for a dark reflection of it. I can,
I guess I certainly see a dark reflection to Vegas. And I don't, I feel like Vegas is typically
personified as like, at the tables and everything's this, but it's also like,
I have like friends who've lost all their money to gambling addiction. And so it's like,
what I guess, uh, yeah, somebody maybe needs to make, maybe that's an open spot. There needs to
be a dark side to Vegas. And it's about Mormons in Vegas, that's getting shot by the mob.
Yeah. So you mentioned your spirituality. You've, you said that having a crisis of faith or
just the philosophical question of asking who is God, does God exist? Or in thinking of the flip
side of that, of mortality, what happens when we die, those kinds of things were extremely difficult,
uh, deep, um, things for you, uh, in terms of your development, the whole process of figuring
that out. Um, why does it hurt so much to lose faith in God?
Yeah, I would say that the seeking of God, let's say that is an obsession for me and has been since
I was young. I really feel that I'm a deep, deeply, like committed to finding answers in life. And
there's some answers that I don't think there's an answer to. And I'm also very OCD by nature,
so I just don't give up to that. I'm like, well, there must be somewhere in Tibet,
there's some teacher, or there's, there's somebody out there that has the answer,
or maybe it's yet to be found. I'm going to find it. Um, I'm really, my life has been to date,
probably unhealthily committed to finding answers about God or the lack thereof,
and, um, mortality. It's all I sing about. It's all all our records have been about.
Who do you think is God? Have you ever gotten a glimpse?
You know, I will say the closest I feel like I have been to experiencing God is, uh,
and this sounds so, uh, maybe, I don't know. I don't know how it sounds, but it's through
ayahuasca for me. That's, that's my honest answer for you. I feel like I had pretty much given up
all hope of there being anything greater than, you know, us being, you know, evolving and
being here and then dying and you're gone and that's it. And nothingness and from nothingness
we came and nothingness we go to where I am now, which is there are answers to be found. I don't
know them. Like I don't know what God looks like or if God is anything to do with the word God in
the way that we say it, but I do believe pretty fervently that there is more to be, uh, found.
Is it motion sensor or no? I don't know what that was.
It looked like they have all died actually. Do you know which one of it, is it this one right
here? Do you want to hold this chair? See if I can get it like this. Yeah.
Almost there. I really don't know.
There's gotta be like so much to say about this. There we go.
Chinese proverb. Yeah.
How many people does it take to, what is it on school, uh, light bulb?
Light bulb. It was hot too. It was like us doing like the two finger like technique.
Yeah. Well, I'm glad you survived that. Thanks.
That'd be pretty ironic if we're talking about mortality and then this would be it for you.
I've never done ayahuasca, so it's a mixture of two plants. One of them is DMT,
but a lot of people I really respect, very, very intelligent people,
had profound experiences with ayahuasca. What is that? Where do you go? Where does the mind go?
What the heck is up with that?
I'll first say that I am like, I can't even smoke weed. I really do not enjoy it,
uh, because I hate to let go of control. Like if I feel out of control in life,
it's like one of my biggest weaknesses. It's like very scary for me. I don't,
and some people, you know, really enjoy letting go in that way. I really don't.
So I was pretty terrified to make the jump then to ayahuasca, but my wife, who I deeply respect,
um, made a profound change through ayahuasca. And I saw it.
She led the way.
Yeah. And it wasn't a strange, like I think most, we have a thing in America that's very,
like a misconception, a stigma on psychedelics where, you know, it's like, it's a drug and it makes
some people crazy. And then you're going to be on the street and you're going to be out of your
mind or you're going to become like, you know, a crazy person basically. And I think I really
bought into that notion because again, I was raised, I wasn't even raised with cable TV. You
know what I mean? Like ayahuasca is very like, I didn't, you know, you can imagine what that was
like for a Mormon kid. I didn't know anything about it and never touched drugs at all and never
even touched a cigarette, you know? Um, anyway, so I think we have this misconception about it
where Americans are quick to go to their doctor and take any medication or drug. Um, but you know,
whoa, when it comes to like psychedelics. Anyway, that being said, so I had that trepidation going
into it, but I really love and respect my wife. And I saw it make a profound impact in her life
where she suddenly was able to heal from a lot of trauma that she has. She had a really, she
went through a lot in her life and it really helped her heal. But it also set her in a new path
spiritually that seemed really like a place that I wanted to be. So I did it and I did it twice.
The first time it didn't really have an effect on me, which happens to a lot of people, I guess.
Um, I drank, you know, this little thing and there was like this shaman who came over from
overseas that was really, had been in the plant, you know, world for decades and was a really
incredible, um, I don't even know if he likes to be called shaman, but.
So it's supposed to be like 30, 60 minutes to take effect and a few hours. The journey
lasts about four, four hours. Yeah. So the second time I took it, I took, took it in,
I would say 20, 30 minutes in exactly. I started to, I started to feel like I was like the dimension
of what is reality. The curtain was pulled open and there was a lot more to discover.
And it really blew my mind in a way that I think it would probably blow anybody's mind
if, for instance, God descended or some Christian God or whatever it is.
We all think it'd be this beautiful thing, but in reality it would probably make people
super fearful and think that they've lost their mind. Um, like I've always, yeah,
I've always like joked that if the Mormon God came down and told my mom, like,
if God himself came down and told my mom, Mormonism is incorrect, she would say,
Satan. Yeah. You know, it's like, we're never, I think our minds are just not prepared for a lot of,
of, uh, of anything that's really extreme. And it was very extreme. It was like the curtain of life
was, was cut open, which scared me. But then I felt very much, and a lot of people that I've
talked to have a similar thing where I felt very much like I was either communicating with
something that was perceived as God to me or highest sense of self or mind or mother earth,
or, you know, it's called so many different names, but it's really, it's very, a lot of people have
a very spiritual, similar experience with ayahuasca and just in that it's like this kind of profoundness.
It wasn't like, there was nothing, uh, at least for me that was, um, that felt like just like my,
like psychedelic funny cartoons or something. It was like, I'm about to go on a journey and it's,
and I'm going to communicate, I'm communicating with something that feels incredibly wise, showed
me a lot of things in my life, kind of almost like from a bird's eye, almost like I was looking
through a video camera at a younger me. There was a particular thing that it communicated to me.
Um, I really have a hard time with, with accepting success and not feeling, um,
um, like feeling undeserving or something. I can't quite put it into words, but of, of my position
and what I've been given, I've been given so much. Um, and it showed me this thing from when I was
young and explained to me why I am, where I am now. And I, I, to this day, like it did not feel
like myself telling myself that that's the only way I can explain it. Like, and there was a lot
more that it showed me and, and that was incredibly healing for me. But just to be like, to put it
into a short thing because there's so much to this, it felt, I walked away feeling very convinced
that there is more to be known for sure. And a lot of my deep, like things that were traumatic
for me didn't feel traumatic anymore, specifically crisis of faith. I was very angry at my parents
and my community for raising me in what I perceived to be falsehoods. Um, and that, and that, uh,
I felt like the bedrock of everything I believed was ripped out for me in my twenties. And then it
was like, good luck in life. But really my parents had given me everything that they could. And they
believed that very much so still. But a naive young me was angry and felt like they had been duped.
And thus I had been duped. But ayahuasca really showed me this roadmap of like, this is truth.
And you're concerning yourself about a grain of sand, which is Mormonism or whatever it is.
And there may be some truths in that tiny grain of sand. And there may be falsities.
But so as all these other grains of sand, like focus on the truth, stop focusing on these little
details that are meaningless and forgive and let go of people believing in those things to begin with.
I don't know if that makes sense, but that was like the core thing I was taught. And to let go
of control, stop needing to control everything. And it felt like the wisdom was coming from elsewhere.
Like it's really, I do not believe, at least in my current self, I don't have that,
the mindfulness that I believe that exists in me to reach a lot of the conclusions that I did.
And there was a lot more to it that would be for like a late night conversation with you.
But it's so hard to put it into, you feel like a crazy person. At least at any time I talk about
ayahuasca to someone who hasn't done it, I'm like, I don't even know where to begin. Like
how do you explain to someone that you felt like that a multiple dimension type thing happened
in a way that, like putting it into words is, and none of it was words, by the way,
that was communicated to me. It was like, you know how people talk about telepathy,
and if it existed, it would be like, I could communicate to you in such a deeper way. I'm
so confined by me having to articulate these words and put them in a sentence to you, Lex,
and then tell you like, if only I could just be like, and emotions do that sometimes, right?
You could see my emotions and be like, oh, that communicates a lot. So that's what it felt like
to me with ayahuascas. It felt like it was communicating to me very clear things, but it
wasn't like, Daniel, it's me, Mother Earth. Let me relax, sit back, let me show you. But
it was very clear to me what was being said. And no, it did not feel like me,
but maybe science, smarter people than me who've done it would say, well, was you,
and blah, blah, blah. I don't know. But it was very convincing.
There's a lot of stuff in that subconscious that we haven't explored. We haven't
explored the depths of the ocean. We haven't really figured out what's that the younging
shadow, what's going on underneath the surface of our conscious mind. And what is that connecting
to? Is that just inside our mind? Is there some kind of collective intelligence going on where
all humans are connected to one kind of greater organism? What is consciousness? We have a lot
of hubris in thinking we understand any of it, like how the mind works at all. What is it?
What is the origin of consciousness? What is the origin of intelligence? There's a lot of
hubris about this. We would give each other PhDs and Nobel Prizes and congratulate ourselves
as if we figured it all out. But humility is helpful here. Nevertheless, that is the question
that humans have been asking for ever since humans were humans, which is the question of
mortality, the question of God. So whether it's Hamlet to be or not to be, I think that's the
hardest, the most important question. Albert Camus asked, why live? So in terms of crisis of faith,
in terms of your search for truth, in terms of some of the dark places you've gone in your mind,
what's the good answer to this question? So for Camus with mythic sisyphus, it was
the question of suicide. What's the purpose? What's a good answer to why I keep going,
especially when you're struggling, especially when you're feeling hopeless, when you're feeling
like a burden in this search for truth, when you feel like you're surrounded by lies? What's
a good answer to why I live? You ever found one? Well, the simple answer right now is to say,
it's very easy once you have kids to say, the right answer is you just, of course,
you brought these kids into the world, so you have a responsibility that I feel deeply as a father
to them to always be there for as long as I humanly can and to take care of them and protect them.
It's the most innate sense in me. It's wired in my animal existence. So if I take that away,
right? Because that's kind of cheating. Let's put that aside because it is cheating.
It's cheating. You're still some fundamental way in which you're alone.
Yeah. And to that, that actually has been a real struggle for me for many years. I had a real turning
point early in my career where we were flying somewhere overseas and we're in a really small
plane and the lights went out and all these red lights were flashing and the plane just started
to dive. Completely like scariest plane experience I've ever been in. My manager was next to me,
who's my brother. He was crying and texting his wife a goodbye. That's how crazy this moment was.
Was it real, genuine? Genuine. Genuine engine went out, plane is going down,
pilots looking like crazy in the front and it was a really tiny jet. And like I said,
my brother next to me crying, typing a text to his wife. Really, really scary. And I felt nothing.
I genuinely sat there and I was like, this might actually be nice. I really felt like
this goes down and like, oh man, life sucks and it's hard. And that sounds so ridiculous, I know,
to say, because again, I'm in a different place now and I see my life for what it is,
but at that moment I did not. So life was primarily defined by suffering, it was a burden.
It was. I was incredibly depressed. I had been trying different medications since I was
young and I just had not found anything that was working for me. And then I was in a faith crisis,
lost all my faith, started a band. It just became, I wasn't ever thinking that this band. I was like,
when you call your band Imagine Dragons, you're not thinking that band's going to be big, okay?
This was like a side project that was fun for me. It was like art in college. I was in school
and I was like, man, I hate this biology class. I'm going to write down band names.
It was not, hey, put everything aside. This is my career. Let's go. It just, it happened.
And I'm an introvert by nature. I'm really not an extroverted person who likes to go out and like,
I like to be at home with a couple friends and have a late night conversation over good food.
Like that to me is a perfect night. Read a good book, listen to a podcast, go on a walk.
Those are things that I really, really enjoy. And suddenly I'm in this life where I'm like,
supposed to be something that I really don't want to be, except for on stage,
which is a really fast, like strange thing to me, which is on stage, I feel so free and exuberant
and like an extrovert. And then I come off and I just feel like shrivel back into a show.
Like music does that for me and performing on a stage does that for me.
Can we take a small tangent on that?
Yeah, yeah, of course.
What's the high, can we go through that, the introvert that wants to cuddle up and read a book?
You're the front man of one of the, if not the biggest rock bands today, playing in front of huge crowds.
What's the high of that and how can you land back on earth?
The high of it is, it's incredibly beautiful to walk on a stage, sing these songs that you wrote
and see it resonate with people around you and sing with them.
Different cultures, different places celebrate life.
It suddenly, the world seems like a fantastic place. It feels like we're all on the same team.
It's like one big hug.
Yeah, it's like everybody in that room gets it and they all, it just, it feels like what you want the world to be.
Which is just like this coexisting unit of people and it's not even about like, it's incredible.
It's incredible. For sure, it's incredible and I love it and I wouldn't do it unless I loved it.
And then you walk off stage and you turn on the news and it's like, you see,
we're all against each other, everybody hates each other and it feels that way in the world.
So music really, that's why live music is so important to people.
That's why music is so important to people.
Because even if it's just you and that person that wrote the song, you're listening to it and the two of you feel connected.
You know, it's like you're hearing Tracy Chapman sing like Fast Car or something.
You're just like, oh my gosh, like, yes, I get it.
And you feel connected to that person, you don't feel alone.
So that's the high of it for sure.
And then you get off stage and then, you know, as my, like my uncle is a heart surgeon,
incredible heart surgeon who like writes the book.
Like he's like the guy that the heart surgeons talk to.
He's out of Nashville, Tennessee.
He's just incredible genius man.
He always worries and always reached out to me.
He's like, musicians die all the time.
The reason they die, you know, is because you're getting on stage and your heart's doing this
and your cortisol levels are doing this, you're getting off stage and then you're just doing this.
And it's a really real thing.
Like you get off stage and you feel like you need drugs because you're like, I,
the world feels like, oh, incredibly daunting.
And it's also, I'm sure has to do with like some, some like health things in your heart
and the cortisol levels that are so crazy.
And then you come off and it's like, I know people are like, well, then nothing's enough,
except meth.
Yeah, nothing's enough except heroin.
And that's why a lot of artists turn to that stuff.
And I don't say it in a preach, I don't say it in a preachy way.
Like I've struggled with drug abuse in my life.
And I really, I understand why artists turn to it.
But also the fact that you're introvert, so the other side of it, the fame.
That's something that you also said is a double-edged sword for you.
The interesting thing about fame is that you also mentioned,
is it something you can't take back?
Yeah.
So it's a thing you can't just like go on vacation at Hawaii and it's like, consider
do I like it or not?
No, you're staying in Hawaii for the rest of your life and you've never been there before,
whether you like it or not.
So what's that like being, you know, loved by millions and millions and millions of people,
which is perhaps the best kind of fame in terms of if you have to choose the kinds of
fames there are and still being an introvert and all that kind of stuff.
So what, do you feel alone, more alone being famous?
Is there a loneliness to it?
Yeah.
I mean, it's such a funny thing because for, okay, if you had asked,
if we were having this conversation a couple years ago, I'd be incredibly guarded about this
because the last thing I want to ever do is sound ungrateful or unaware of how much I have.
And woe is the famous celebrity with money.
Oh, is your life hard?
Is it really telling me about how hard it is?
But I'm also at a place in life now where I just like, I'm not always just speak my
truth because that's the only reason I'm here is I'm here to speak my truth to you.
So I'm going to tell you my truth, whether it's whatever it is.
But you're human and feelings are real and so that's the interesting thing.
You win a lottery.
What's that going to feel like?
It's not about complaining.
Oh, it's so hard to win a lottery because you get a lot of money.
No, it's still, you're human and you get to experience these feelings and it's fascinating.
You put humans in different situations and it's also fascinating because a lot of people think,
well, I would like to be famous.
That's a big thing now on social media and Instagram and so on.
The world wants to be famous.
Or rich or famous and then it's very interesting to think.
All right.
Well, once you arrive, are all the problems solved?
No.
Yeah.
So I will tell you, according to me, what the pitfalls are, whether it's pure or not.
And there are certainly some pitfalls.
One, it's once you're there, you can't go back, whatever.
Maybe that's fine because maybe you love it.
But the real pitfall for me is that you're now, you're lex and you're what everybody's
perception is that lex is.
And that's what you are.
Now, lex is probably a lot more complex and complicated and has a lot more to lex than
the lex that is the celebrity.
So, but anybody who meets you, that's who you are to them.
And you may, you may not feel this way, but you may feel confined to actually have to be
that person to that person.
Like, I, early in my career for a long time, anytime I met someone, I suddenly felt like
I had to be Dan Reynolds from Imagine Dragons, anytime I met someone, including my family
now, who are also like, whoa, this is crazy.
You're like Dan Reynolds from Imagine Dragons.
Yeah.
And I wanted to just be the goofball that I have been my whole life with my brothers
and family, but suddenly I found myself feeling like, no, I have to be this, like,
because that's who, that's who this is.
So you're almost like playing a role.
And it's like, I've heard a lot of actors talk about this, well, they'll take on a role
and then it's like, they feel like they have to, they like become that.
And it's a really scary thing.
Like, you alter who you are almost to fit the notion of other people, because especially
if a lot of artists are empaths, it, you know, a lot of people get into art in a deep way
or empaths.
And so you feel a lot of what people are feeling and you're never wanting to burden
people and you're always wanting to deliver to that person, you know, what they want is
like people pleasing is very, it goes hand in hand with a lot of like these famous people
and they get to where they were because they know how to do that.
They know how to be in a room with someone and look them in the eye and make them feel
like they're the only person in the room.
And then now they got that role in that movie because they sat with the casting director
and they were like, oh, so funny.
Oh, has anybody put on the charisma?
Do it all.
And it's like, anyway, I'm like,
I'm going on a different tangent here, but long story short, there's a lot of things
that are really unhealthy about it.
And then a lot of people who want the fame, then the second it starts to go away, then
they're like, who am I anymore?
Like, that was everything.
And now I'm like on the down and now I'm not a famous person anymore.
And now I hate myself.
Now I'm going to do drugs.
And it's like, it's like this vicious cycle.
Like you could never be famous enough.
You're always going to get like, there's just so much to it that I've just, and I, and again,
like I've lost friends in this career to that for sure.
And there's a certain element to sort of just on the losing fame.
I've interacted with a lot of folks, especially young folks, like on YouTube.
So fame is a thing that has levels.
You're always trying to be a little more famous.
A lot of folks were chasing fame.
It doesn't matter how famous you are, you're always trying to chase more.
And when you start to lose it, interesting things can happen if you're not self aware,
which is like, like you mentioned, you might be trying to grasp back at where you were by
leaning into the formula that got you there.
And so the constraints of the image that you mentioned becomes the thing that you're now
trying to lean into.
Like, and that, that's actually walking away from who you really are.
Like you lean further into being that person, that's true for acting, that's true for
even on like YouTube, which is people acting, they have a role that got them to the table
somehow.
Yeah, it's, it's dark, but I think those are,
that's just put for everybody to see, but that's a very human struggle,
even when you're not famous, finding yourself, being yourself of not letting,
not doing the people pleasing at any scale and being trapped by that.
Yeah.
And also feeling like it's never enough.
I think that's something all, like it's not just the famous thing, but it's like in the whole,
like everybody deals with feeling like, when I'm here, I'll be happy.
Yeah.
When I get that job, I'll be happy.
When I have that money, then I'll be happy.
When my, when I get that surgery and my nose looks like this, I will be happy then.
It's like a constant chase of happiness instead of happiness.
It's like the opposite.
It's opposite of self-love.
It's the opposite of happiness.
There's no presence to it.
You're constant.
You're never going to find it.
You're never going to arrive and you're just going to live your life and then you're going
to be on your death bed and be like, I was chasing the wrong thing my whole life.
I should say that podcasts are interesting in that way.
So for me personally, because you just talk a lot, you can't, people that meet you, they
know you and they know the evolution of you.
And that's the same thing for like you right now, Dan of Imagine Dragons.
Just being on a podcast, like long form reveals the side that liberates you more to be yourself.
People see it.
Oh, there's a human because they, music, they have a deep connection with you.
They have experiences with you the way they experienced it.
And that's who you are with them through the songs.
But now you get to see, oh, that's a human being.
He probably gets angry.
He gets sad.
He's excited.
He's hopeful.
And there's a core.
There's a good human being, but the whole roller coaster of emotions all there.
It's a giant, beautiful mess.
And podcasts reveal that.
That's why I love podcasts, like long form.
You get to hear some artists and actors and so on.
And some of them you get to see, oh, you've lost yourself in the, in the surface.
That's a tragedy with some actors, some great actors.
They've, they've, they've left so much of themselves in the roles they've played
that they can no longer be the thing they were before those great roles.
That's for sure.
It's, it's hard.
It's hard to see.
So you get to see that with Johnny Depp with, I don't know, Pirates.
He was talking about that with Pirates of the Caribbean.
That was a shift.
Right.
Like he's not that guy.
Right.
He's, he's forever, forever, forever that guy.
But the point is to remember that you're not into your family, which is interesting.
You said with your family, when I see people close to me, they also,
there is an element like that while you're that they start treating you like the famous person.
Yeah.
You know, I, I'm fortunate to have my manager, who's my brother, my older brother,
and my lawyer is my other older brother.
And that's been helpful because the math, like it's weird.
It gets weird with everyone, no matter what.
One of the best advice I was given was by Charlie Sheen.
You got advice from Charlie Sheen.
Yeah.
We were playing the wise sage of our generation.
Wise sage, sage Charlie Sheen, but it was, it was really wise.
I was sitting next to him and we were, we were playing some late night television.
He said, this was right at the beginning.
And he just said, boys, just mark my words.
Your life is about to get really weird.
That's all I said, but it's stuck with me forever.
And it's Charlie Sheen.
So of course it sticks with you.
And I remember being like, right, okay, Charlie Sheen.
I'm not Charlie Sheen.
It's not going to get weird like, you know, but it got really, really weird, really quick
because suddenly you've existed your whole life in this way where everybody just,
everything you get, you achieved, it was because you got it.
And every conversation you had, like if someone liked you at the end of that conversation,
it was because they liked you.
If they didn't like you, it's because they didn't like you.
And you can make complete peace with that.
At least I could my whole life.
I was like, life is a challenge and be myself and I'm going to go through it and find some
people along the way that I connect with and others know.
And that social integrity is so important to us.
And we think it would be nice to have this.
And this is going back to the pitfalls of it.
We think it would be nice to walk into a room and have everyone be like,
and you could be like, dumpster fire.
And everybody's like, oh my gosh, dumpster fire was amazing.
You said dumpster fire was amazing.
It's like, it's incredibly, incredibly lonely.
And it just breaks everything that you knew about humaneness.
And it sucks.
So then you're seeking out people who that it doesn't exist with.
And families the closest you can get to that for sure.
But even your families, it's going to take a little bit where they're like,
oh, this is a little weird.
Like all my friends at work are now asking about you and you're my young stupid brother.
But now you're suddenly like the young stupid brother they want an autograph from and stuff.
And it still makes like they have to get over that and figure that out.
And then you meet people too who know about this whole concept.
And they're like, well, I'm going to be an asshole to him to show him that I don't subscribe.
And you're dealing with people who are like, dumpster fire.
The person who's like, you could say something actually profound and nice.
And they'd be like, that's stupid and you're an idiot.
Because it's like an actual attempt to like show you how much they don't care.
So you live in this very like this.
Still, nevertheless, even when nobody knew you,
you were seeking for deep human connection with a small number of people.
And now when a lot of people know you,
you're still looking for deep connection with a small number of people.
The struggle is the same.
Can you speak to, because you mentioned some of the dark moments.
What advice did you give to people who are struggling with depression?
And maybe for the people who love the people who are struggling with depression?
So what I have found to be most successful for me,
it's back to the basics of everything that the therapist or psychologist will tell you.
Psychiatrist will tell you right when you meet them, which is exercise every day, eat healthy,
for sure, find time, make time every day to do something that you love,
whatever that may be, whatever brings you joy.
And you might, and when you're really depressed, that actually feels like nothing.
Because the things that brought you joy don't bring you joy anymore when I'm really in the
thick of it. But for me, like this is the cycle that I'll go through is I'll look at my life
and I'll say, okay, what can I clean up? All right, well, for me, it was cutting out alcohol
actually helped me a lot. I know that sounds like big. I'm not judging anybody for that.
And I still drink on occasion, but I have felt like alcohol has been very unhelpful to my mental
state. I feel less drive and less happiness the next day for things that I want to do.
I feel like it plays a lot with your serotonin. So look for stuff to change.
Clean living, yeah, clean living, but also understanding that sometimes it's just,
it just is. And you just keep breathing and it will get better with time.
This too shall pass. This too shall pass. I really think that in the winter, I'm pretty
sure, I mean, I've had a lot of, I've seen a lot of therapists and all of them say the same thing,
which is like, you have major depressive disorder and this is what it is, but
it's certainly worse for me in the winter months. So I know there's like,
I can't think of the term for it, but there's a term for like seasonal depression. There it is.
So I'll get to the winter and suddenly I'm like, geez, everything really
sucks on a deeper level. And then, you know, so it's like this too shall pass is another thing.
It's like just practice those things, absolutely see a therapist. That's my biggest,
like my biggest emphasis of life is to like on stage, like my goal, like I have a few things
that I really, really care about. One is, is mental health, health and de-stigmatizing therapy.
Because for me, I didn't go to therapy for a long time because I felt that it would be
admitting that I was broken. It'd be admitting that I was weaker than Lex, who doesn't have to go
to a therapist because Lex is stronger. So be strong like Lex. You know, I would like look
at all my older brothers and I looked up to them so much and they were all these incredibly
successful people. Plastic surgeon, anesthesiologist, a dentist, two attorneys, Stanford, NYU,
like just like incredible high standards. Eagle scouts, you know, like they,
valor Victorians, like they just did it all. So for me, I was very, really did not want to
and none of them went to therapy. So it was like, what are you going to be? Are you,
are you broken? Are you like the weak one who can't hack life? And I think that's incredibly
dangerous. And I feel like it almost cost me my life because I took so long to finally go to
therapy. So I really want kids to know, hey, like the great people that achieve great things,
that are doing amazing things, they probably have help, almost all of them.
It's like going to the gym, but it's a mental gym. So I, unfortunately, I want to be a psychiatrist
when I was growing up. Maybe that's why I like podcasts. Maybe that's-
I think you'd be a good one. I would.
I think you are a psychiatrist, pretty much. Sounds like you're a psychiatrist.
I think I need more. I think, I think actually, to be a good psychiatrist,
you'd also need to be seeking therapy from the, like you also need to be,
have some stuff to work through in your mind. I think, yeah, you have to have gone to some dark
places. Empathize. The empathy, the ability to empathize, and especially if you've directly
experienced that, you can go to those places in your mind. Like you said, it's with the music.
To be authentic, you have to really go there. What, why did therapy help so much? What is
the process of therapy? If you can just educate a little more. Is it, are you basically bringing
to the surface and talking through things that you, because of the momentum of life,
you just never allow yourself to speak through, to think through? Is that what therapy is?
Or is there some more systematic thing? I've been to a lot of strange different kinds of
therapy. I'll tell you, my first therapist- If I could interrupt, how hard is it to find
a therapist that connected with you? It is, it's actually pretty hard, I think.
Well, actually, I have a skewed view of that, because going back to the beginning of my therapy
was with a Mormon therapist. It was very much like, well, are you reading your book of Mormon?
And are you praying at night? That was a big focus of my therapy to begin with.
And you're having a faith crisis in the distance somewhere.
Yes. Well, and then- You're making it worse. Yes. The next therapist I went to was
a Scientology therapist. I met my wife, and she was Scientologist at the time, and she's not
anymore. It's such a funny thing to look back on, because we met. I was this Mormon missionary who
had just got home from his mission, and I met her, and she's Scientologist. I was like,
wow, that's bad shit crazy. That stuff's crazy. And she's like, what are you talking about?
That's your crazy. You're a Mormon. That's bad shit crazy. And the two of us were like,
huh, maybe there's something to this, to both of us here.
Yeah, the tension actually forces you to think through what is true, what is right.
And we really fell in love through that, which was like, maybe we're both on the wrong track.
Let's figure this out. But before that happened, we went to a Scientologist therapist who,
that therapy consisted of, what have you done wrong to Asia? And they would ask me that question
over and over and over and over, and taught them thinking of the deepest, darkest things that
were in the recesses of my mind. This was a therapy. This was marriage therapy.
Anyway, I'm not going to get into that, but it was Scientology therapy. So that was a different
thing. And then I went to therapy therapy, like, no, it's not attached to any religion.
And that was a really great experience for me. And since then, I've been through a couple of
different therapists, but that was more because where I was and moving and things like that.
So is it that hard to find a great therapist? Probably not. But maybe don't go to your Mormon
therapist person, Scientology therapist. Or maybe that's, maybe that's the route for you.
Maybe it's the route for you. I don't know.
Yeah. But what is, so is it bringing stuff to the surface basically?
Oh, yeah. So I didn't even answer your question.
What's the effect? Why is it so effective? Is there something you could put words to?
Yeah. I mean, I think it's obviously there's the common things you would think of, which is like,
oh, I've been holding these things in and I don't want to tell anybody and then I tell this person
and there's relief in that. But that's really not where the real work comes from. I think the real
work is meeting with someone who is well-versed and educated and understands. It's like coding.
It really is. It's like someone who like, they listen to you and they're like, well,
that was a trigger. And then this became this trigger and you're probably every time you're
hearing that thinking of this thing that happened earlier in your life. And they just will walk you
through scenarios and maybe some of them aren't right, but some of them you'll be like, it'll
resonate sometimes. You're like, wow, I am feeling that because of that. And that did happen. And
maybe if I call my mom and say this to her, it will make me feel better. Hey, mom, this happened.
It's like work. You put in work and you have hard conversations and do difficult things.
And so if your therapy is not difficult, I actually think that's not good therapy.
Good therapy is, it's going to be a little difficult. It's work.
During and after.
Yes. I had this incredible therapist who was who had, I told him when I was going to do
ayahuasca. He was like, Jesus, he had actually was a doctor before and a really well-educated
studied person who had walked away from brain doctor. What's the word for that? Brain doctor.
Brain surgeon. Neurologist. Neurologist.
And he said, well, basically his belief was that ayahuasca was like
basically doing therapy like 50 sessions. He was like, it's like really intensive. He was like,
I don't know if you want to do that. If you do, you can make some big steps forward,
but I prefer just to do one session at a time. And say it's hard work. And that,
I typically like, it's really hard for me to even talk about ayahuasca by the way,
going back to that, because I'm not looking to tell everybody to go do ayahuasca. It's
incredibly hard. It was the scariest experience of my entire life. It felt like I went to heaven,
but it also felt like I went to the darkest, deepest hell that was incredibly scary.
Incredibly scary. Yeah.
Yeah. She told the story of how you wrote the song, Believer, or like your childhood friend,
I guess, Donald, like bullying and that kind of stuff. This song, I mean, a lot of your songs
are super interesting, sort of, there's a percussion, super interesting, super interesting
lyrically, just how it flows. And also pain is at the center of it. I mean, a lot of,
like you said, the crisis of faith, some of these existential questions are basically
behind a lot of your songs, funny enough. Maybe they're covered in metaphor, so it's hard to see.
But it's there. And this song is really, is really interesting in that way that it puts,
you know, pain, you made me a believer. You break me down, you build me up, believer.
That's so interesting. Maybe can you tell us the story of how the song came to be?
I'd love to listen to it too. I have some questions musically about it too.
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's exactly what we're talking about with therapy. I just feel like
the greatest things in my life have come from the deepest hurt. Losing someone that you love
is maybe the hardest part of the human path for me, at least thus far. When I think of,
okay, what was the hardest thing? There's like, you know, there's like, you think of physical pain
or maybe like going through financial pain or whatever. I think losing someone that you really
love to death is one of the hardest. For me, I would say it was the hardest. But it also makes
you look at your life completely differently and alter your life, at least for me in ways that were
really healthy. Being more present, letting go of things that were meaningless, trying to control
what other people think about you, like wasting your time on things like that. And you suddenly
see like, wow, like time, I got a small amount of time. Like, how do I want to spend it? I'm going
to spend it in the best way I know how. And that's it. So yeah, I mean, that's, it's a basic
common concept that's been said a million times over in a million different ways. But that's
pretty much what I was trying to say with believer, which is like, I've lost faith in, faith in
everything at that time period. And, you know, or previous to that time period. And then I was
rebuilding my faith or my spiritual thought process. And it was after I was skin, it was like,
you know, finding being a believer. And that, and that's not necessarily like a believer in God
or a believer in heaven and hell or anything like that, but a believer in more believing in
goodness, believing in that there is some light. Like, and again, those words, like, they're just
words. And I wish there were better words to formulate the thought that I'm trying to express.
But just more, like the thought of me dying for me, I don't fear it. I don't fear it. But
actually, I really fear not seeing my kids again. I'll say that that is fearful for me. I feel like
I love so deeply these children that the thought of like, leaving them for me is a, is a, a scary
thought or something. They're, they're kind of good reminder how much you love life actually.
Yeah. And you don't always remember that. Yeah. And I think having kids is not for everyone for
absolutely for sure. But for me, and especially you shouldn't be having kids to give yourself a
reason to live. I mean, like, I feel like dying. I'm going to have a kid. Like, you might feel
more like dying after having a kid, actually, you know, it's pretty stressful. But it is a place to
like, I've changed a lot of people that I've known that it gave them a new intensity of gratitude
for life, for sure. God, do you mind if we, I'll return to the pain of the believer, you might
if we listen to a little bit of songs. Do you write the music first or the words first?
It's same time, which is very typical for me.
By the way, just the way it opens, like how, you know, intensity of openings. You ever think about
like what the first few seconds sound like? Is that something that, like when you imagine a song,
is it the opening you imagine? No, it's kind of a, it's just a, I never think opening. I never
think final. I think soundscape of how I'm feeling right now. So it could be the middle of the song
for all I know when I'm, you know, when I'm doing that. But my process for me is very much lyrics
and melody and music really come at the same time. Like I, by same time, I mean, I'm,
I'm a, as I'm expressing maybe, you know, I'm feeling like,
like it's not that simple, but it's like, I'll hear it. Like it's like, here's all the orchestra
and you're kind of just pressing all the buttons at once. And melody in my voice is just one of those
instruments. You know what I mean? It's just utilizing one instrument.
So you've seen the landscape and that landscape includes melody, includes percussion, lyrics a
little bit or lyrics. I will be words to begin with, like a word here and there. Like I'll be like,
you know, I'm like, what's a word that I'm thinking of when I'm feeling this soundscape? And
I always create with no theme in mind. I'm never, for, for better or worse, just my process is I'm
sitting down and I'm writing a journal entry. Simple as that. It's like, when you sit down
to write a journal entry, are you sitting down and you're like, Kev, I've had all these words
here that I'm going to put on the page and I'm going to order it in this way. And my theme
for my journal entry today is going to be this, maybe some people do, but I don't, my journal
entry is, I don't know what I'm going to say. Oh, how was today? Well, man, today was this and
feeling this. And now that I think about that, I'm really angry about that. That hurt my feelings
when this happened. You're like, you're formulating it as you go. And that's the joy of it. And for
me, that's what music is. So I'll sit down, not thinking, Hey, I've been wanting to write a song
that has a hard beat or I've been wanting to write a song that's anthemic or I've been wanting to
write a song that's, it's like, how am I feeling right now? And is joyful with, is the feeling
joyful to you? Or is it struggle? You just made it sound like it's joyful. Or at least fulfilling.
Yeah, fulfilling is what I was kind of looking for, but there was a lot of artists talk about
it's really, like you talk about writers, cathartic. That's what I was like. It feels like
having a good moment with a therapist where you're like, okay, I'm expressing this thing that I just
need to express. For whatever reason, I need to express this. The majority of the songs I write
for the record are never heard. I write over a hundred songs a year. I release 20 songs every
three years. So I don't know what's that percent 20 out of 300. Come on, Lex.
It's less than 10%. Less than 10%. 8, 7% or something.
Yeah. Anyway, so it's
and then like getting together with the band and like getting them selected down is really what
the process has. So you're really writing a song per one to three days, kind of
maybe a song that you can't quite figure out the puzzle of that's going to last a little longer.
Is it worth it?
I finish every idea.
Yeah. You finish every idea.
I do. I finish every idea.
So it's not just like laying completely unfinished.
I could open my computer for you right now and I would show you hundreds and hundreds of songs
that you would listen to and think, that sounds like a song. It's like, there's rhythm, there's
melody, there's multiple instruments, there's lyrics. It's the same thing is for coding for me,
which is music, which is I can't walk away until I've completed it.
But it's finished.
Well, finished is-
Yeah, but it sounds like a song.
I certainly do a lot more with it after with the band where we pulled all apart.
But it's a song. It'll be like, you'll listen to it and say, okay, that was a song.
You understand what it is for sure.
Do you think this is a painful question from a fan perspective?
Do you think there's genius on your computer that you walked away from that you just didn't notice it?
Like, do you think there's truly great songs that you've written that you just didn't notice
how great they are?
I think greatness is something that I feel I'm, I don't feel like I've achieved greatness.
Genuine. I'm not saying that to you in a way of like humility.
That's what Michael Jordan taught me.
No, genuinely, I feel like I am on a journey right now to find who I am.
And I'm 34 and it's like, I don't even, I haven't begun that journey.
I feel like I'm just starting that.
But that being said, I certainly don't know the right answer to what songs are, you know,
beloved or good to the masses.
Like, Imagine Dragons is such a massive entity.
It's like, there have been a, I will say this, there are a couple of times where I fought really hard to decide on the single, really hard.
Or I always fight for what goes on the record always.
I always put the record together and that's the record that I wanted to be and me and the guys come up with.
That and it's nobody else has influence, no manager, no label.
The single, everybody wants to have a say in your label wants to have a say in it.
Your manager wants to have a say in it.
And I have fought really hard over that and I've been wrong before and I've been right before.
But as far as songs that I haven't put out, I mean,
Because you can imagine so many songs, you think, you think of so many Beatles songs
that are like some of their grace while my guitar gently weeps.
Let me, I'm trying to imagine weird sounding, not that interesting, possibly songs that turn out.
The majority of what we put them, honestly, they may, it may be our best stuff is that we don't put out, for instance,
because our band is such a,
it's such a complex question.
I really don't know, actually.
I don't know, maybe one day I'll die and people will look and be like, I hated Imagine Dragons,
but now I listen to that song, I really like that, wish they would put that out.
Or maybe they'll be like, oh, it's all sounds like shit.
I don't really know.
Sorry, it is a tragic thing.
That's why I ask it, which is like, there could be some great, incredible things that
will take you a long time to rediscover, to realize how great they are.
And it's also the tragic aspect of being an artist is you don't know,
if you get fame or all that kind of stuff, you don't know what's going to really move people,
because ultimately what you want is to connect with people, and you don't know what that's going to be.
It's hard, I mean, to me, it's, to me, it's tragic, just as a fan of yours to see, maybe I wonder if there's like,
incredible stuff there.
Just as it is tragic to see great artists throughout history who didn't get recognition until they died.
It's like, because they basically held on, you know, France, Kafka was extremely self-critical.
A lot of these folks had an idea of what's good and not, and they were wrong.
They had genius.
They weren't entirely wrong because they became sufficiently popular, but it's interesting.
I try to genuinely to release the songs that move me the most.
Got it.
I'll say that.
You're your own audience.
Yeah, I try to put out the songs that make me feel the most, like, I feel that.
That's my only gauge, because it's so subjective of like, what is good, what's this, nobody knows the song that the masses are going to like.
Nobody knows that formula, nobody knows it, so for me, it's always what makes me feel something.
One of the main lessons Rick Rubin taught me when we worked with him on this record was he would say,
his main point that he would continually bring up went like, because he's not the type of person that's a bad song or that's good.
It's just not who Rick Rubin is.
It's more like, there's more nuance to it.
He would say, I don't really believe you on that song.
That's what he would say.
He would say, and I knew that was like, that song's a no go.
He would say, and I would genuinely, there was a time he said it and it was about a song that I really liked.
I really felt it and meant it when I said it, but he didn't believe it when he heard it.
And that was enough for, I was like, man, well, at the end of the day, I can believe it all I want,
but if the listener doesn't feel the honesty in it, just like we were talking about earlier,
I think the most important ingredient is this truth, perceived as truth to someone else.
And if it's not, the bullshit indicator goes and you're like, I don't care, I don't throw it away, I don't care about it.
Well, you said that he made you go through like line by line, the lyrics, the devil.
Every song.
That was excruciating for me.
Why was that excruciating?
Well, first of all, it's Rick Rubin.
So you're in the room with like, Rick Rubin, who's done a lot of the greatest of all time.
And so I had to first just put that aside and be like, okay, well, you've done a lot of my favorite records,
but still you're human.
And not everything you say is going to be right.
And I'm a strongly opinionated person and so is Rick.
And so when the two of us were sitting down in the room together, it was, you know...
But the lyrics, which is interesting.
So not the entire composition, but just like, let's look at the lyrics.
What do you mean here?
Yeah, oh yeah, because he would look over, there was like, and there were battles he won battles that he didn't win.
And maybe he was right. I don't know. I mean, there was, for instance, I'll give you an example.
There was a song on the record called number one.
Okay, Rick will probably laugh when he hears this, because this was a big one that we kept going back and forth on.
But this will give you a good insight of what it was like.
And there's a line in it that says, I don't know, the chorus is, I don't know what I'm meant to be.
I don't need no one to believe when it's all been said and done.
I'm still my number one. And he was like, nah, it just makes me cringe when I hear that.
He's like, I just, like, do you have to be like, can it not be like, you're still my number one?
And I was like, no, it's not about anybody else.
Like, you know, it's about like self-love.
He's like, yeah, but like, do you need to like talk about self-love like that?
And I was like, well, I feel like I need to.
He's like, well, maybe, you know, there's something else we could say there, like we just kept, you know, we kept coming back to this song.
Okay. I was like, and I changed it. I tried changing it.
What did I change it to? It was like, it wasn't you're still my number one because it just made no sense.
It wasn't about some love thing or like someone else.
I changed it to something else. And it just, it was the one thing that I was like, I'm really sorry, Rick.
Like, I get it. And if it sounds cringy to you, it's definitely sounding cringy to other people too.
And that sucks. But I don't know how else to say this in a way that I want to put that song out anymore.
But there were other songs for sure where Rick was like, that or this, that word feels a little trite.
You already said that once. Can you say it in a different way? It was really helpful.
And then, yeah.
It's really interesting because you're trying to say something so simply and yet not make it cringe.
And that's really hard.
That's a strange art form because you want to say some of the greatest love songs.
We looked at the Without You song. I mean, that's the whole thing is cringy.
If you just read it on paper, like it's a court report or something.
But yet it's not, especially when sung, maybe.
But no, there's something about, yeah, maybe...
Song in a way you believe it.
When you believe it, but also written in a way that's singable in the way you believe it.
Right.
It rolls off. It just comes out in a way that just feels like silky.
No word catches your mind as cringy.
Yes.
But then music, I think great speeches are like that too.
Or just conveying, communicating ideas simply.
That's the art form is to not be cringy. So interesting.
Because when you're raw and real, it might at first feel cringy.
The battle there, and that's where you see people fail.
Just regular artists. I don't know.
At Open Mic. I go to Open Mic so I just listen to the musicians.
When they write songs, they fail that test.
They write simple stuff, but it's cringy. Why?
I wonder what was that? What is that?
I'm telling you, Lex, I tried to explain this to my brother the other day.
Because it's the same thing with a live performance.
If I'm not in my right headspace and I walk on stage,
and I walk up and let's say I say something and I do this.
Yeah.
Because I'm like, this is the move.
The crowd doesn't care.
In fact, the crowd is like, that's cringy when you did this.
But if I wasn't thinking about doing this,
and I went up there and I said something,
and I really meant it, and my body was like,
I can't explain this to you.
It's so silly to say out loud.
But it's...
People will resonate to it when it's real.
And when it's acted, it doesn't...
You could do it the exact...
The motion could look the same, your eyes look the same,
but there's something about the energy that people know.
They know if it's real or not.
Yeah, people have, like you said, incredible bullshit detections.
I'll go on a stage, and if I'm not in the right headspace to be real,
it won't be a good show.
If I'm real, then it's a good show. It's as simple as that.
Let's go through the song.
Like I said, great opener.
So you had this in your mind, this landscape?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
The beat was first on this.
What about the first and the second?
Like first things first, second things...
The first line I wrote was first things first.
I don't know why it just was like...
And then I was like, oh, that principle of, you know...
Great line.
Don't second things second.
Don't you tell me what you think that I could be.
I'm the one at the sail, I'm the master of my sea.
I'm the master of my sea.
My dad had that in his office.
He had this saying that was something about the sailor
and being the master of his sea that I always loved.
There you go.
Simple statement, zero cringe in it.
It's so powerful.
It's so simple.
I'm the master of my sea.
This whole song is just trivial,
but in terms of lyrically,
but extremely powerful and original,
unique sounding, something about the words.
You don't have to actually sing them.
You just read them and then raw.
I was broken from a young age,
took myself into the masses, writing my poems for the few
that look at me, took to me,
shaking me, feeling me singing from the heartache,
from the pain, taking my message from the thing.
I can't...
Why am I reciting your words to you?
But the percussionist throughout it,
and that was there in the beginning.
The percussionist is almost in the lyrics, yeah.
And I'm a very percussive singer because I was a drummer first
before I... I think, same with Dave Grohl,
probably a similar thing, which is,
I think in percussive sense a lot when I'm writing,
and I also was...
Before I could play an instrument, I would beatbox.
And I think Michael Jackson did this too, actually.
I've heard in the studio that he was very similar,
but a lot of what I do is percussive
because my brain thinks in it percussively first.
A little more, because it's so good.
It's almost like a drum, like,
And then you lay words on that.
Yeah.
Yeah, this...
It's building.
It's almost like drums.
It's all building to the chorus.
What about the word pain?
When did that come to you?
Pain. You made me a believer.
Yeah, just the idea of...
I just wanted to...
I really...
One of the things that a lot of the songs that I like...
I like divisiveness, for instance.
Not always, but there's times where I want someone to hear a song
and I want them to either love it or hate it.
I really don't want them to be in the middle ground.
A lot of the songs that...
Like, a lot of my favorite songs are divisive songs.
So, for instance, with pain, I want you to hear that.
I want you to hear that in almost like...
It's like, whoa.
You know what I mean?
It's something either somebody's going to hear and they'll be like,
Man, I just don't want to hear that like that.
Or it's like, oh, I felt that so deeply when he said that in that way
because it sounded like this.
And when you think of the word pain, it's like...
At least for me, when I hear that word, it carries a lot of weight.
It carries a lot of weight.
So, I wanted to sing it with a lot of weight
and to come into that chorus with like...
Like, it's a striking moment.
And I'm also a tenor singing as...
Sorry, I'm a baritone singing as a tenor.
So, that's where that natural, like, gruffness comes from
is that I'm singing out of my range, really, up in my head voice
and it carries a lot of weight with it because of the baritone.
Can I ask you a specific sort of the pause before the pain?
Mm-hmm.
It's really interesting because it's like a double...
What is that?
How much work does that take to get that right?
That's incredible because it's like...
So, you're kind of seeing the beauty through that
and then that whatever that sound is the...
Right, the bass being rolled off.
Yeah, I actually, when I first was approaching the chorus
it was actually...
Like, it came in on one.
I'm not singing it right right now, but it did not weight.
And it felt like it didn't hit in the way that it was supposed to hit
because you predict that, right?
You're like, you're waiting to hear...
Right, it was like...
So, I wanted to feel a little more striking.
Like, again, it's like that thing that makes you kind of do this a little bit.
You're like, huh?
But once you hear it a few times, you're like, ah, ah,
and you predict...
You know what I mean?
It's like, I'd rather someone hear our song the first time and be confused by it
so they play it the second time.
And then they're like, oh, okay.
You know what I mean?
You don't want...
You know, I'd rather turn some people off along the way
and then the people who come along for you are going to feel more committed, I think.
It's just an interesting, like...
It feels gutsy to insert silence, you know?
Yeah, that's what makes it...
You know, it's like the greatest speakers of all time are like,
and I told you...
Right.
You would know.
You're like, oh!
Yeah, what is that?
Yeah, that's so interesting to do that just at the right time.
And then pain, right?
Man, it's a brilliant song.
Did you know it was a good song when you wrote it?
Out of the thousands of songs you've written?
You know, it's always the same thing for me, which is like,
if I want to listen to the song and I want to listen to it a lot of times,
then those are the songs we put out.
And I only want to listen to the songs that make me feel something.
Whether or not...
Our single that did the very worst of all our singles
was the song that I wanted to listen to the least.
But it made the most sense as a single,
which was all the wrong reason to choose it, right?
I bet my life is the single off our second album.
And that song was originally written, it was just a guitar and a vocal,
and it was very just quiet and laid back.
And we were like, well, let's try to dial it up, let's try to produce it,
and we overproduced that song.
We self-produced it as a band and we overproduced.
And that song, I mean, it did good, you know, in terms of a song,
but for us, it did not do good compared to our other songs.
And I really look back at that and learned a lesson from that.
It's like, if I don't want to listen to the song, that's a sign already.
If you don't want to listen to your own song, it's probably not a good song.
You said your dad, elsewhere in today,
just said that your dad early on was a kind of the early Rick Rubin.
So when you were starting out, he gave you feedback, he listened.
What did you learn about music, about life from your dad?
My dad is a really quiet farm, grew up on a farm, very humble.
I think he starts every sentence by saying,
this is just my two cents, pretty much.
You know what I mean?
It's like, take it or leave it.
You know what I mean?
He's that kind of a sense, like there's humility in everything,
and it's real for him.
It's not like false humility.
I really feel like when he's saying things, he really is like,
maybe this isn't any worth to you, son, and he means it.
But here it is.
And it's always gold.
And I'm like, wow, dad, that's incredible, you know?
So in those early days of you, so you were like 12 or something like that,
like starting to write songs.
I was 12.
I wasn't showing my music to anyone.
I started writing my own as 12, and I probably wrote for at least,
let's say six months or something.
And I had written probably, I don't know, like a lot of songs during that.
What was the topic, by the way?
Love, anger?
It was all sad and nose.
The first song I ever wrote went...
And it was like a bluesy thing.
It was like, there was my voice to that.
And then it was like...
All by himself, no other one around.
And he stood all alone.
When would he be found?
Did he want company?
Or was he found on his own?
Everyone needs a friend.
So why was he all alone?
But I was like a 12-year-old with...
I just felt depressed for the first time.
And I just was like so...
I think he discovered the blues as a 12-year-old.
Yeah, right.
It really was.
It was like my sense of the blues at that time, for sure.
But it was like 12-year-old kid with a bunch of acne.
And I hated going to school.
I felt like I just had not found myself.
Sounds like a great song, by the way.
I wanted to keep listening.
I forgot I was...
Yeah, I don't know about that.
Yeah, but...
Yeah, what was your dad?
At which point did you begin to share it with your dad?
A lot of the songs that I wrote in the beginning were very much like Bobby McFerrin like that
because Mike was in a part of the house where I couldn't bring over the piano
and the only instrument I played at the time was the piano.
So I would do everything with my voice.
But then I started teaching myself the guitar in that beginning like six-month period
just watching my brothers play in their garage bands in the basement.
And then I started to write songs a little more like Enya vibes.
Like stack my voice like 20, 30 times.
And like Enya meets like Jarre,
which is who my dad would listen to a lot, John Michael Jarre.
He's an incredible synth genius.
But anyway, so I finally got my like gall up enough to show it to my dad one day after work.
And I got very little at my dad because there were nine kids and he worked from 8 a.m. till 6 p.m.
We'll come home very tired and here's nine kids that are like,
dad, you know, and you're the young one, you're not...
You're just going to miss...
I was in the middle kind of too, so it's even, you know, middle child thing.
But I sat him down and I was like, hey dad, I just want to like kind of show you a song.
And he was like, oh, you know, he didn't know I was writing anything and I showed it to him and he listened.
And he took it off and he really looked at me and was like, that was really good.
He was like, I've thought, and this when you said this, it made me feel this.
He was like, and that did it.
I probably would have given up music.
Like I look back.
That was a very pivotal moment for me.
I was like in a place where I was like, is this good, bad?
I don't know.
Maybe it's so embarrassing and terrible.
And I was already writing lyrics that were a little like overly metaphorical to hide that I was dealing with faith crisis.
Because I thought, okay, I'm going to show this to dad.
I don't want my dad to know I'm like questioning the truthfulness of Joseph Smith.
So I'm not going to be like, is Joseph Smith a real prophet?
Is Mormonism true?
I don't really know.
Like, you know what I was like writing way overly metaphorical.
But because my dad really validated it and he was a no bullshit person.
So I knew when my dad said that, I was like, you know what, at least my dad really actually thinks this is cool.
And I really trusted my dad's taste and thought everything he listened to was cool.
So I was like, wow, I'm going to keep doing this.
And I just showed it to my dad for years and years.
And still to this day, I sent every song to my dad.
So he underneath it with the feedback is always like, ooh, I like this idea.
I like this.
It's just a positive, like a...
Not always positive, no.
But like underneath it, do you sense the positivity?
Because I think that's...
Always.
Never mean, never malicious.
You know, there's like, there's two types of criticism.
There's like criticism that's just like you're looking to be hurtful to someone.
And then there's criticism that's like really important for art.
It's the type of criticism that's like, you see the value and what's happening.
And if it's honest, then you maybe communicate with that person.
Like, I see what you're trying to do with that.
It's not even like you have to say that or whatever, like butter it up.
But it's like, my dad would just give me this honest criticism that would be like, you know,
it certainly wasn't always good, but I knew it was always well-intentioned.
I guess that's how I would say.
So you mentioned, made me re-listen to it.
I'm a big fan of Cass Stevens.
You made me re-listen to Father and Son.
I probably, all sons have issues to work through with their fathers.
And you said that you connect with this song in particular.
I think, so you're a father now.
What is it about the song that connects with you for people?
Let me play a little bit.
People should educate themselves on Cass Stevens.
Oh my gosh.
Right on the peace train.
The best, the best piece, right on the peace train.
You think this is a hopeful, a sad song?
I hear it as hopeful.
I hear it as a loving father saying just what his son needs to hear.
It's not time to make a change.
Just relax, take it easy.
You're still young.
That's your fault.
There's so much you have.
It's like that calm wisdom.
Yeah.
There's time.
It's wise.
If you want, you can marry and look at me.
I am old, but I'm happy.
And just the way he says that, like that should be a corny line,
but it's not corny at all.
It's like, yeah.
Look at me, I'm old, but I'm happy.
But it's not easy to be calm.
When you found something going on.
Yeah.
I mean, the simplicity there.
Yeah, but it's such a contrast with, what's his name?
Harry Chapman with the cats in the cradle,
which is like the sadness of,
this feels like there's a wise, calm connection
between father and son, right?
With cats in the cradle.
I don't know if you remember that song.
He learned to walk while I was away,
and he was talking before I knew it.
And as he grew, he'd say, I'm going to be like you dad,
you know, I'm going to be like you.
And the idea of that song is that he does become like his dad.
Which is funny, you know, something you've said.
But in a different way, you become too busy to make that connection.
His dad was too busy to make a connection with his son.
In a, not in a dramatic way, in a very kind of calm, natural way.
Like you don't, you just don't have time.
You're busy at work, you're providing for the family and so on.
There's connection, but you don't really get the form,
that like depth of connection.
And then the father, when the son shows up from college
and all that kind of stuff, he doesn't spend any time with the father.
And just the calm sadness of that, that we live,
we can live parallel lives and never quite connect.
And there is a little bit of that in father and son with Kat Stevens too, you know,
like when the son is saying, from the moment that I could talk,
I was ordered to listen.
I always remember listening to that line, feeling like that really moved me.
But the beauty of that song is it shows,
it's kind of like the theme of what I feel like we've talked about since the second you got here,
which is something I really like.
I don't know why it's such an important theme in my life right now,
but the duality of just understanding that you don't understand someone else's situation.
And there's truth to both sides.
Like there's truth to what the father is saying to the son.
He's like saying these things and he's like, I'm looking out for you.
I love you.
Take your time with these things.
If you want to get married, you can, like these things that we have.
And then the son saying, listen, like I want to pave my own path.
I want to do this. Why are you telling me this?
The son's not wrong because there's a lot of parents who tell their kids what to do and they're wrong.
And they don't let the kid form the path that they need to.
But should you not be a parent?
There's just two sides to everything.
There's a thing.
It is annoying when you're older, you get to see people do all the same things.
You could say, well, this is a phase and you'll see that this actually will end up in this way.
You can like predict how the life on rolls.
And it's very annoying for young people to hear, especially because it's probably going to be true.
It's like, no, it's not going to be like this.
No, it's going to be different, but then you become that person.
But that doesn't mean they also let them live that life, let them make the mistakes.
But they're not mistakes, actually.
They're like beautiful deviations from the path that they end up on.
And those make the path.
Do you have advice for young folks today?
You've had like an incredible dark journey and a successful one, a loving one.
And one of the most successful artists in the world.
Is there advice you can give to young people today that would like to find themselves to that way, especially if they're struggling?
I thought you said device at first and I was like, honestly, I feel like that device is not helping.
Maybe everybody should get away, throw away their devices.
Advice, I would just say like what I emphasize to my kids is I really, really want my kids to just learn to love themselves.
It's easier said than done.
It's really easy to pick on yourself in life.
It's really easy to look in the mirror and wish you looked different, wish you were more successful like that person over there.
Wish that, you know, wish a lot of things.
And people that I see that really succeed at life really succeed truly.
And that doesn't mean they're making money necessarily or they're succeeding.
And, you know, they're talking to a lot of people like their success.
Success to me is like happy and real.
They have real self love.
You know, when you meet someone, you meet Rick, for instance, you meet Rick Ruhman.
Rick has a calmness about him.
And it's funny because everybody sees him as this like Zen master.
Like Rick is just a really loving person who also loves himself and has self confidence because you just see it and it resonates.
And that's why he draws people and that's why he's so great in the studio because you know his intentions always.
As an artist, when a producer comes in, you're like, whoa, whoa, whoa, what are your intentions?
What are you trying to do?
Are you trying to get a hit out of me for the label?
Are you trying to make me something?
Are you trying to like make me this so you can prove this about yourself?
Like there's a lot in that dynamic.
And the reason that Rick is so good is because you know his intentions and his intentions come because Rick has that self love.
So for me, find the things about yourself because they're there that you love and really focus in on them.
And it's not selfish.
Like I feel like I was brought up in a family too where it was like, never look inward, like be selfless, like serve, serve, serve.
Which by the way, is a true principle of life.
I think you love yourself more when you serve more.
I think that's really evident in life.
But also spend time doing the things that make you happy.
Take time every day to go on that walk that you need to go on.
Listen to that book tape that you need to listen to.
Like for me, that's something I need.
I know if I do that, I'm going to be a better dad because I did, I did, I gave myself some love back in life.
And I just forgive yourself.
I think forgive yourself because everybody messes up.
Everybody hurts others.
Everybody says unkind words at times.
Everybody, everybody fails all the time.
And if you think that you're going to not, you're wrong.
And you're eventually going to and you're either going to punish yourself for it every day and be a lesser version of what you could be.
Or you're going to forgive yourself for it.
And if you learned that that's not something you want, then try not to do it again.
If you do it again, then you're probably going to do it again, whatever that is.
You're going to gossip about that person.
You're going to feel bad because then you gossiped about someone.
Is this something you could say in terms of self-love?
Is there a role for being critical on those demons of self-criticism?
Do you need a little bit of that?
Tom Waits talks about, I like my Tom with a little drop of poison.
Right.
Do you need a little poison or is that silly?
No, I mean, it's my biggest thing in life that has been the thing that I've worked on the hardest for the last few years is to not be overly critical and to let go of control.
I think it's really easy to kill an artist.
It's really easy to kill an artist.
Like if my dad would have sat down with me that day and even if he would have just sat down and then like, good job, son.
Okay.
It's not silly, right?
Like I didn't, not everybody has a dad who's going to ever do something or put in the time or whatever, but that would, that might have altered everything for me.
Like my dad taking the extra time to be, to just give me a thoughtful response, opposed to kids know, kids know when you're, when you're just like trying to get out of the room or whatever.
I knew he wasn't and that did a lot.
So yeah.
But is that, is that a huge, isn't that what makes the artist?
Is the fragility of it that like, would you have it any other way?
No, no, I agree with you.
I think that that's what, that, that's the beauty of art.
But I think also on the same token, it's like, I went to, I went to music cares recently, which is a charity for musicians that are down on their luck that maybe were successful at one point or I've never been successful on the campman pill to pay the bills.
And this charity contributes money to these artists, aspiring artists or artists who've had drug issues and like, there's a lot that they do, but, and there was a statistic that they told it was staggering to me, which is, I think it was 75%.
Of artists, musicians say they struggle with severe depression.
That's really high.
I don't know what the national average is, but I would guess that that's higher than national average per occupation.
So I just think there's a tricky balance, there's a tricky balance in, in art.
So yeah, of course, like it's, it's a necessary thing, the fragility of it all.
Yeah, I wonder, because I'm extremely self critical.
And I sometimes ask myself the question, I've romanticized it, or rather, I've learned to be, for it to be productive, to channel it into productivity.
But I wonder if there's better ways to do that. And I also wonder if it's eventually the thing that destroys me.
Like if long term, if it's a healthy thing, it might be useful when you're in sort of actively fighting the battles of the day.
For me, it's engineering challenges and all that kind of stuff.
But then when you're sitting back and enjoying life with family and so on, is that going to be like, do you need to find that self love,
like ability to kind of silence the voice of criticism in your head?
You know what, I really, there's a good, you're making a good point.
And I think that the middle ground is you need, you need self doubt to push you to be better.
I do believe that like, for instance, if I, if I believed, I've hit my, like when you're like, these are a song on there that you think is genius.
If I, if I think I've written a genius song ever, I think I'd probably stop.
I think I'd be like, you know what, did it, I wrote, what's that perfect song?
Imagine.
Imagine, yeah.
Okay.
If I'd written imagine, I'd probably be like, that's it, did it.
All right.
Perfect song has been written.
That's the best thing I'll ever do.
So the fact that, that there is like self criticism and criticism outside, I think is necessary.
100%, 100% for sure.
It pushes you, it pushes you, it pushes you.
It's just finding the right middle ground for that young aspiring artist to also not feel squashed and to be heard and to love, just to, not even to feel squashed, just to love themself.
So that when they're in the room playing the song, they'll believe it because they believe themselves.
They love themselves enough that they believe it.
And then they'll do a great, and then the song will come out great and they'll do a great performance.
I have to ask, it's one of the very interesting aspects of your life of the way you put love out there in the world.
What is at the core of your support for the LGBT community?
A couple of things.
So one, growing up in, from a young age in the artist community, a lot of my closest friends were LGBTQ, starting in middle school.
And I think a lot of the best artists in the world are LGBTQ, and that's just, it's not a secret.
Like, it's just this, like the artist community is filled with lots of LGBTQ people.
So I think being raised in that community, in that my friends struggled with their faith and their sexuality,
really opened up my eyes to how incredibly hard that path is.
For instance, okay, when I was in high school, there was someone who went in front of,
who was LGBTQ and was Mormon and felt like there was not a place for them in the church, they felt like the path.
You know, when you're being told that it's evil and you believe it because you believe in your faith and you feel like it's unchangeable,
you're putting a kid in a situation where there's really no good resolution.
It's either be alone for the rest of your life or marry outside your sexual preference, which I don't want to marry a man.
Like, if I was forced to marry a man, I'm like, I don't want to marry a man because I'm heterosexual.
So you're forcing a kid into a situation where it's very dangerous.
Long story short, this kid went in front of the Las Vegas Mormon temple and shot himself, killed himself.
That impacted our community.
And not just that, but it was like severe bullying to LGBTQ kids.
In the 90s, it was especially different.
Like, there's still bullying, don't be wrong.
But man, like bullying in school, I don't really know actually what it's like in schools now.
Maybe the bullying is just as bad as it was in the 90s.
But there was like, it was like, I would hear all the time like the F slur being slung out at people who were LGBTQ all the time.
And I wasn't even LGBTQ.
So I, you know, it's just seeing that I think that every any social justice issue takes all sides.
It takes all pieces of the puzzle.
If only the pieces of the puzzle contributed are from the side that is affected.
I don't believe that we'll ever have resolution.
We're doing a shit job and we need to do better.
And that's just, that's the reality of it.
So that's part of the reason I also have family who's LGBTQ.
And it's just something that's been part of my path.
And I feel like I'm a big believer and take the path that is presented to you.
And this was just something that came up in my life a lot.
When I met my wife, she was living with her two best friends who are LGBTQ, who really didn't want her to marry me because I was Mormon.
At the time it was Prop 8, which was Mormons were fighting against LGBT gay marriage.
And so that, then they didn't come to our wedding and that really broke my wife's heart.
So it was just like, because Mormonism represented everything that was against their community.
So you felt like you had to say something?
Yeah, I felt like by not saying anything, I was saying everything.
I felt like by not speaking up and being like, hey, Dan Reynolds is Mormon singer.
Here's this new band, Magic Dragons and they're Mormons.
It was like, okay, well, what do Mormons represent?
They represent Prop 8.
What does Prop 8 represent?
Bigotry towards the LGBTQ community.
So what do I do?
Okay, I can speak in every interview and be like, well, that's not me.
I don't believe that too.
Or I could just be more active about it and especially when it's affecting my family and friends throughout my entire life.
It was like, all right, this seems like a path that you need to go down.
So long story short, it was a path that just presented itself through things in my life.
So just on that topic, religion and God give a lot of meaning to a lot of people.
It gives tradition that brings people together across the generations, but it also can hurt people.
What do you make about that tension?
So a source of meaning, but also a source of pain for people.
The reality is, at least to me, again, this is just my reality.
I feel like I'm doing my dad's thing every time I'm talking to him.
I'm like, I don't really know.
Here's my two cents.
You have become your father.
The reality and it's my reality and it is the reality for sure.
I think that religion has brought a lot of hurt and pain to a lot of people.
Absolutely it has.
I don't think anybody can dispute that on either side.
Whether it's war, whether it's slaughtering of entire peoples,
there's been a lot of pain and suffering that has come from religion.
So my little thing that has been hard for me is a faith crisis.
I had religion and then I lost it and then I had nothing.
So for me, I was like, well, religion did that to me.
But then at one point, it's kind of like, how much of my life am I just going to complain about being raised Mormon or being depressed?
As I get older, I'm like, okay, so what?
Okay, it's really hurt me, but were there any good things that came out of Mormonism?
Well, yeah, there's a lot of good things that have come to my family through Mormonism.
Closeness were really, really close.
Mormon culture is that you live together forever.
The teaching is that your families are forever.
We die and then we go to heaven together and we're together forever.
My family really believes that principle.
All of them do.
And that instills a certain way of living that's kind of beautiful, even if it's naivety.
There's something kind of beautiful about believing that we're forming these bonds together as a family and that we're going to be together forever.
It brings a lot of comfort to a kid too.
When I was little, I was like, wow, it's going to be okay if I die because I get to see my mom again.
I mean, I really believe that.
Is the right answer that you tell that kid?
Actually, when you die, you're not going to see your mom again.
Maybe it might be.
I don't know.
And anybody who has a kid is going to face that moment.
I've already faced it where you sit down and my kid was like, hey, dad, when you die, am I going to see you again?
That was actually a really hard moment for me because I was suddenly faced with, okay, do I give the answer that I thought was bullshit?
Or do I give the answer of what I think it is, or do I give the real answer which is, I don't know.
And that's what I chose, which is a father that's not always the easiest answer because your kid, it's a wonderful thing that you feel like you can give your kid the comfort of like, hey, your parents are going to take care of everything.
We know everything.
We've been around.
My kid's always like, are you the strongest?
I'm like, yeah, I am the strongest.
You're stronger than everybody?
Yeah.
Yeah.
So when you're faced with that moment, it's like, it kind of sucks to tell your kid like, you know what?
I don't know if you're going to see me after I die.
But I hope.
That's what I said.
I was like, I don't know, but I hope.
I really hope because that would be awesome if we can hang out forever.
And if there's any way for it to happen, I'll make it happen.
You know what I mean?
That's kind of what my answer was.
So long story short, sorry.
I know that I'm being lengthy on this.
Is there like, what is my thought on religion?
It just is.
It's been here forever.
It's coping.
Maybe it's, I can't say whether it's true or false.
How the hell am I supposed to know?
I mean, like I've lived 34 years on this planet.
A lot of people have been around a lot longer than me, and they really believe very deeply.
And a lot of them are smarter than me.
You know what I mean?
Like I look at my older brothers, for instance, who are very practicing Mormons.
These guys are hyper intelligent.
My younger sister, hyper intelligent, all of them start smarter than me.
They all believe it still.
So what am I supposed to say?
Well, you're all stupid.
You know what I mean?
Like you're all wrong.
I don't know.
Like maybe it's the South Park episode where everybody dies and then they're like, well,
the right answer was Mormonism.
And everybody's like, oh.
I mean, like Mormons love that moment in South Park.
They're like, hey, that day may come.
That day may come.
Yeah.
So maybe I don't know is the honest answer for everybody around the table.
But the biggest question for which I didn't know is the right answer is what's the meaning
of this whole thing?
What's the meaning of life?
No, you're not allowed to say I don't know.
You can be just like your dad and say, let me just give my two cents.
Take it for you.
Whatever it's worth.
It's probably worth nothing's pittle on the ground.
I mean, what, why are we here?
It's just busily creating all these kinds of things, worrying about things, having kids.
And my purpose at least right now is to wake up and try to bring light love to the world,
light love to myself and have integrity.
That's my purpose.
My ultimate purpose of life, I guess that's my ultimate purpose of life.
I don't know what happens when I die.
ayahuasca gave me some sense that there's more to be known.
I'm sure there are other things in life that would give me that and I'm looking for it.
I'm a seeker.
I'm always looking for the next something to give me hope in something more, even if
I'm just not bullshitting my kids when they ask me that question and be like, you know what?
I really don't know.
I want to not know more, if that makes sense.
I want to see things that make me confused, that make me question what I already knew.
When I meet an atheist who comes up to me and they're like, atheism, atheism, atheism.
It's just as laughable to me as when I meet the Mormon who comes up and they're like,
Mormonism, Mormonism, Mormonism.
I'm like, how do you anyone?
How do you guys know?
You feel like you're doing some, through all your travels, through all the people you meet,
you feel like you're still keeping your eyes open and your heart open to discover something new.
Like the ayahuasca experience, that there might be deeper truths out there.
Yeah.
And I want to find them.
And I want to surround myself with people who are just looking for it.
I'm not interested in people who are just looking to point fingers at each other.
Life is so short.
I'm looking for, it's one of the reasons that I want to meet with you is I was like, wow.
Lex really seems like he's on a journey to find truth.
And that humility for me, it's the same thing with Rick.
It drew me to Rick.
I really, I see that and identify with it.
And that's what I'm looking for.
There's the final song on our record, our new record that's coming out.
The chorus goes, and this is like, this is my best answer to what you're asking.
The chorus goes, take it easy on me.
I need some lullaby.
They tell me heaven's just a lie.
Well, I'm not surprised.
Tell me that you know, know you don't.
Yeah, you're just like me.
Can we just all hope for the best?
Take it easy.
So that's it for me.
It's like, I'm going to play some live from like, I don't know.
Tell me, you know, I'm not going to believe you.
Maybe you do.
I'm not going to believe it, but like, let's just be easier on each other and like try to
find truth wherever it may lie.
But above all, know that we don't know jack shit.
I think that's a mic drop moment.
Dan, thank you so much.
You're an incredible human.
I love that you share with the world the darkness of your mind, of your life experience and
the beautiful light you've shown to the world.
So it's a huge honor and thank you for spending your valuable time.
Good luck on the tour.
Thanks, man.
Thanks for having me.
Thanks for listening to this conversation with Dan Reynolds.
To support this podcast, please check out our sponsors in the description.
And now let me leave you with some words from Aldous Huxley.
After silence, that which comes nearest to expressing the inexpressible is music.
Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time.