This, is the Nielsen Norman Group UX Podcast.
I'm Teresa Fessenden.
UX is a broad term.
Yes, it means user experience, but if you've been listening for a while, then you know
that user experiences aren't limited to digital designs.
And the best ones are typically a careful orchestration of many kinds of interactions
— physical, digital, interpersonal.
So to honor the range of experiences and types of design work in our field, we'll be using
the next few episodes sharing interviews that we've had with members of our UX master
certified community, who are applying UX principles to their work in different ways.
Today we'll be featuring a type of design that's less focused on visual appearances
and more focused on untangling really gnarly, complex problems — service design.
To do that, we'll be sharing an interview we had with UX master certified Thomas Wilson.
Thomas is a senior principal service designer and strategist at UnitedHealthcare, who spent
the last 13 years in the service design space.
In this episode, we discuss what service design is, how Thomas got into this field, and what
makes the work so challenging, but also so rewarding.
So without further delay, here's Thomas.
So Thomas, I'm excited to have you here.
I'm excited to have you tell us a little bit about your work and especially around service
design, which is a field that's growing rapidly as far as like a field that is adjacent to
slash related to UX.
So I'm excited to kind of dissect that relationship a little bit and learn a bit about you.
So before we get into, you know, how you got here, I would love to sort of dissect
what service design is because I think we have a number of folks who may have heard
of this term but don't really know what service design is and, you know, maybe want to know
a bit more.
So how would you define it?
That's a great question.
And if you ask 20 different people, they'd probably give you 20 different answers.
And if you ask people who are like in the European countries, especially like the Scandinavian
countries and the Nordic countries, they would definitely give you a different answer
than folks in the United States would because we're kind of functioning at different levels
and service design is less mature over here than it is there.
But I would define it, my definition would be that service design is kind of like it's
the research and analysis and design of those choreography of interactive touch points that
customers have within a system or service.
It's all about solving problems and trying to create positive outcomes for customers,
employees, and the organization.
You know, it spans everything from systems design to business design, venture design,
organizational design, CX, EX, and as you previously mentioned, UX, and any aspect or
iteration of like innovation and designing new products and services.
And so really it's all about customers, right?
It's about customers and business and merging those things.
And so in my personal philosophy, the only type of persona or archetype that really matters
is a real one, right?
And the only type of service experience that matters are the ones that consumers and customers
and employees are actually having.
And so we map those things to better understand those pain points so that we can provide a
more preferred solution for the future.
And so, you know, we're in a service economy right now, right?
And everything is a service, including software.
That's where SaaS comes from, right?
Software as a service.
Yeah.
I kind of laughed a little bit when you mentioned that depending on who you ask, you might get
20 different definitions because I feel like there's a constant debate in like LinkedIn,
for example, where some people will be like, well, service design is like more all encapsulating
than UX is, and then other UXers are like, well, UX captures services.
And there's always sort of this like one upping of whose domain is like more responsible.
And I always kind of laugh a bit at this, not because I don't think it's appropriate
or, you know, accurate, because I think both of these kind of schools of thought have some
level of truth to them.
But what you mentioned, the sort of orchestration of all of these moving pieces, which includes
employees, which includes, you know, all of these maybe third party partners and systems
and making it something that works as like an ecosystem, and that delivers an experience
to customers.
I definitely can see that as at least that's how I see these as coexisting, like neither
is more important.
They're both essential ingredients to delivering like a good service.
So how did you discover this?
Have you always been in service design, or have you sort of gotten into this space from
an adjacent field?
No, so it's funny that you asked, because I started off being a visual designer and
a writer and, you know, kind of doing that art director, creative director track, you
know what I mean?
We're talking, I don't want to age myself, but in the early 90s, I started off doing
that kind of routine.
And when I started going to school, there wasn't a lot of availability to understand
like human factors and, you know, I had certainly never heard of service design at that point,
but not even UX, you know, it wasn't even a thing.
And so I started off doing that visual design stuff and, you know, in the nascent years
of the web, because I moved from Miami, where I was doing like high fashion, I worked literally
for Birdines and Bloomingdale's, which is now Macy's, and I was airbrushing tattoos
and piercings off of models, you know what I mean, on Christmas Eve, and doing stuff
on SunSparks and CamX and Unix systems, and I came back to Houston, and there was none
of that kind of work.
And in Houston, you have a lot of oil and gas, petrochemical, environmental stuff, and
you have healthcare.
That's basically the big industries there.
And so I started off doing, for the oil and gas industry, I started getting into like
doing schematics and diagramming and mapping for GUI devices and interfaces, you know,
back then it was about graphical user interfaces, GUI.
And doing that HMI work and like SCADA controls and SCADA requirements, I started working
on things like nuclear reactors and durators and various types of electronics like heat
exchangers and pumps and then medical devices, and then to like more customer facing things
like kiosks, like interactive kiosks inside of retail environments, and just understanding
those form factors, touch target sizes, and, you know, things like the average height of
American males that would be working in a factory that would be touching the device
that I'm making.
Like I started learning those types of things and geeking out on them just naturally.
And so I didn't really know it was called a thing.
I just knew that I wasn't as fascinated with gradients and fonts and things like that that
some of my counterparts and friends were, and I was more interested in how things work.
And so I started doing a lot of employee experience design as well.
So having your feet in both of those worlds, it really started pushing me more into that
direction of understanding like brand, marketing, service, digital, employee experiences, being
inquisitive about collecting data on those people, places, partners, props, and processes,
and how that stuff works.
And just like you mentioned a second ago, I really got immersed in wanting to understand
that ecosystem.
And when I started going more towards just doing software, like the early 2000s, merging
the customer experience and getting those customer requirements or user requirements
with the business needs and business requirements, like BRDs, and distilling those down into
like product needs and product requirements, that's what it all kind of became very clear
that I was doing more than just visual design, more than just UX, more than just UI.
Mapping all of these things, that's what I really got fascinated about, and started hearing
the term service design was probably the early 2000s.
Yeah.
And the more I think about it, it seems like service design is a relatively new discipline,
at least as far as what we've been covering, because we do have our service blueprinting
class at NNG, and it's a class I share with Sarah Gibbons and a couple other folks, and
we talk a little bit.
It's funny that classes evolved.
We used to talk a lot more about the history of service design and covering some of the
very early papers that came out in Harvard Business Review, and that was like the 80s,
which to some who are entering the industry, that might seem like it's an older field,
but it's really not.
It's still relatively new compared to a lot of other disciplines that are adjacent to
it.
So in many ways, it does seem like it's something that's still growing, and like you're saying,
there are some areas of the world, some industries that maybe have more service design maturity
in the sense that they've had more time to establish the best practices, and others are
just getting their feet wet and even realizing that this is something you can do.
And it's really kind of a fun time to be involved in a way.
It's exciting, but it's also a little bit nerve-wracking to some degree.
It's new to most of the larger organizations in the United States of America, and like
I said, we're still doing it a little bit weirder and not at the top of our license.
And so there's a lot of evangelizing and proselytizing that has to go along with that so that we
can get to a place where it's a little bit more respected like it is in places like Germany
and our Scandinavian countries, they really do respect it over there and they do it well
and it's valued.
Yeah, yeah.
And I definitely love to kind of explore that side of things in just a moment, but you kind
of mentioned that right now there's a lot of figuring things out, for lack of a better
way to phrase it, in the US, where we're still figuring out what is best practice for us
and how can we make this work for us.
And of course, as a result, we often learn a lot in the process where there might be
things that we realize, wow, we got that all wrong or, oh, maybe we got that part right.
But what do you think is the biggest misconception that people tend to have with service design?
What are like the biggest, I would say, misunderstandings?
That service designers are or should be product designers.
They should be UI designers that get down in the weeds with heavy lifting or iterative
UI incrementalism or that they should be one aspect, one leg of the three-legged stool
analogy.
Service designers should, in my opinion, most people's opinions, of course, answer directly
to the business first.
They should answer to the business or if they need to be on a team or are governed by a
specific business unit, it should probably be customer experience second or be on innovation
or flex teams that answer to those folks, answer to business and portfolio managers
or some type of design leadership.
Where it gets problematic is where it's not understood and sometimes even not to be adversarial,
but it's not even respected.
That makes things a little bit harder if you're in a large organization, that if it's not
put in the right place or context and if it isn't supported, that will be difficult
for service designers to operate at the top of their license and to function for the business
and for the customers.
You know, what immediately comes to mind when you mention like not respected, and I certainly
don't want to throw all of my public sector buddies under the bus, but when thinking about
how a lot of large organizations, federal entities or otherwise, there tends to be this
sort of belief that, well, they're employees, they're designing whatever they need to design
for their teams.
They're not users.
We don't need to study them.
We don't need to do a deep dive here.
They're just going to use whatever we tell them to use.
There's often this lack of regard or at least lack of understanding the value of doing research
with employees.
I would argue that it's a lack of respect intrinsically.
One of the most important things that when we understand why human-centered designers
and service designers design and the methods that we do, it's out of love.
It's out of love and respect for customers because we see ourselves in them, and that's
really what empathy is rooted in, right?
It's a secondary notion, empathy.
It's rooted in love, and so if you're not doing this for the love of solving problems
for humans, you're probably doing it for the wrong reasons.
That's one of the most things that's challenging about what you just asked me.
When you don't have that buy-in or support from leadership and they don't understand
it or they don't respect it, the idea that the majority of what a service designer does
is research, right?
You're researching and then you're mapping the things that you're finding out and you're
getting that shared consensus.
That notion that they should be isolated or distributed among teams or governed by PMs
and when businesses are really immature and they do that sort of stuff and they don't
understand the value and promise of service design or strategy allows to work at the top
of our license, then they're just not getting the very best from what we're capable of.
The real losers in that framework are the customers, unfortunately.
Yeah, and I actually love to unpack the idea of the word customer too because in service
design, you've got a lot of people who could be considered customers, right?
We've got end users, which in UX, we get employees who could be end users in some cases, or you
can have agents who are working in a system that customers also see.
You might have two people working in the same system, but seeing very different views or
very different groups of information.
In a way, we're neglecting half or more of an experience by not designing for employees
in the process and having that same kind of care and attention and empathy for coworkers
or people who may not be immediately on our team, but people who are inevitably working
on these systems together.
Right.
Yeah.
Right.
Yeah.
You have a lot of different people in that lexicon, right?
You have service customers, you have service users, you have the front stage service employees.
When you start talking about blueprinting, you have the backstage service employees,
you have partner service employees, you have all of that stuff and understanding the difference
between CX, EX, UX.
They're all just humans, right?
Absolutely.
You mentioned service blueprinting, and what comes to mind for me is actually this debate
I've seen recently, and I would love your thoughts on it, but it has to do with the
idea of service design is not service blueprinting, and service blueprinting is certainly a tool
of service design.
Oh, sure.
It's an artifact.
I would love your thoughts on how service blueprinting fits into what you typically
do, say at UnitedHealthcare or other jobs that you've had as a service designer.
Sure.
I think there's a holy trifecta of a persona archetype, how that persona or archetype group
is visualized via their journey, right?
That top piece of the journey, the top lens, would be that persona or the archetype group
and how they're going through a specific use case or scenario and solving a problem or
how they're going about whatever their job to be done is or experience that they're
having.
And then that top part of the journey feeds into and is a part of the blueprint at the
top of the blueprint.
And then you do, of course, the front stage and backstage and all of that stuff.
So when you look at those three things, what those things are rooted in are the hero's
journey.
And now I'm going to get a little metaphysical and a little bit numinous.
But like Joseph Campbell, Carl Jung, this is where we get these ideas from.
And what we're doing here is we're doing one of the oldest things that you can do.
We've dated some of these things back as far as 10,000 years.
But a lot of the things that we're discovering in tombs, inside of pyramids and things like
this, there are blueprinting types of scenarios, crazy sixes, crazy eights, storyboards, personas,
icons and glyphs, semiotics.
All of this stuff is on the wall of pyramids.
And so we've been telling stories about humans and what we do here and in the afterlife for
thousands of years.
And so this notion of storytelling isn't new.
And I don't think service design or human centered design is really new.
I think that we're using these artifacts to tell stories so that we can relate to one
another and so that we can build consensus.
And that's why I mentioned previously this is rooted in love, because when you have a
passion for solving problems for human beings, you're going to tell their stories with more
than just empathy.
You know what I mean?
You're going to want to get every single detail because those are the, like I said previously,
those are the stories that matter.
Those are the journeys that matter are the ones that people are actually having.
So one of my biggest peeves when I'm training folks or teaching anything to do with service
design or when I see these artifacts is if it's not a real person or at least a group
of people that have very similar experiences, like an archetype bucket.
I don't like those mega maps that have tons of stuff in them and there's no human in it.
And you're just saying, this is how a pregnancy occurs or this is how someone goes in shops
at the grocery store.
Well, who's that someone?
You know, hundreds of millions of people buy groceries every day.
Hundreds of millions of people have babies.
Everyone doesn't have the same experience in a scenario like that.
And so that's the most critical thing is you have to tell those stories and the way
that we do it is with those artifacts and many more.
There's a lot of different types of mapping, right?
There's ecosystem mapping, there's, you know, use flow diagramming and mapping.
There's lots of different types of mapping, but those main three really give you a good
picture of a specific human going through a specific thing, right?
The scenario.
Yeah, absolutely.
I think you bring up this really important point, which is the idea of storytelling.
It's not really this optional skill to have in the field of design in general, right?
The whole point is not to be able to say, oh, I designed something.
Now I'm going to tell people about it, but rather using the ability to construct a story
to understand what journey someone is actually going through.
That's where you're going to find that enlightenment and those great ideas that actually have impact.
And it's funny you bring up the point of the mega maps or the other type of map that
often gets on my nerves sometimes is the map that's so general because we want to capture
all of the customers that we have.
That's what I was just talking about is that type of map.
It's not as specific to a specific human going through a specific thing.
It's just this generalized thing.
And frankly, there's only two reasons why people make those maps.
Number one is out of ignorance and number two is because they work in an environment
where they're not being allowed to go get research.
And that goes back to what I was saying before in one of the places that's problematic.
When you're working in a product environment and basically it becomes the PM's request
for a service designer to go map out their idea, improve it, and basically they look
at it like a form of validation, like go map this thing out to be true and it's like you
have no research to confirm that that A is even a good idea or B that, you know what
I mean, it would ever happen, and that's when it gets problematic and I see of that
a lot.
Definitely.
And also I think there's a lot of pressure too because I mean these efforts, like you
were saying earlier, they require research.
They require a lot of information and that takes time.
That naturally takes time, energy, investment, resources, and I think there's often this
sort of fear of expending these resources on something like a map when it's like why
would I spend it on a map when I can just put it toward a product or to developing something?
And that can be a real issue, right?
Because we might actually be setting ourselves up to like do a lot of busy design work as
opposed to targeted design work, right?
Right.
Yeah.
It's very wasteful.
It's very wasteful and it's actually far more financially consuming and involved to do it
poorly than it is to do it right and invest a little bit of time on the front end.
We could actually do an entire podcast on product first and waste and the viability
and importance of research and service design and UX design on the front end of a project,
but you'd probably need a couple of hours and we would need to take breaks.
Yeah.
I'm sure others listening will agree with that statement, but yeah, I mean I bring that
up just because on the one hand you need the value and the respect for the discipline in
order to be able to do the work right and at the same time doing the work right can
often earn the respect and the value acknowledgement that can sometimes arise like once people
have seen the value.
So it can kind of be a catch 22 and kind of frustrating at times.
Oh, believe me.
So I'm curious then, what has been most helpful to you as you've grown in your career?
What has really helped you kind of take your work to the next level?
Oh, that's a great question.
You know what, and it's an easy one too, and reading.
I read a lot and I follow a vast variety of smart people just like you, like Don Norman,
Jacob Nielsen, but I follow a vast variety of smart people and I read a lot, like members
of the service design network, so I read a lot of peers and a lot of people that came
before me.
I also follow and read people like Erica Hall, who's one of my favorite researchers and
strategists.
I'm sure you know who she is, Adam St. John Lawrence and Mark Stickdorn, both very smart
guys.
Of course, they've written very, very well-known and famous books.
Tony Ulwick, Bob Moesta, both those guys, JTPD guys, and I follow some really intelligent
product management folks too, so I don't just stick to like service designer researchers.
I follow everyone and I really like some product management folks like John Cutler, Powell
Hearn.
I've also been fortunate enough to make some virtual friends and share information with
people like Megan Miller, who is actually going to come speak at our design hour in
a couple of weeks.
There's a fellow Austinite named Douglas Ferguson and there's some behavioral design folks like
BJ Fogg and Dan Airely and those guys and Robert Meza.
I really like following those people, reading what they have to say, reading books from
them and I just think that it helps absorb what other people have been through, how they
map experiences, how they solve problems.
It helps identify what challenges that are surfacing in their lives and if I'm seeing
them in mine too, it helps me to just know that I'm not alone and I'm not crazy, you
know what I mean?
Because we're all struggling with some of the same things, right?
So it helps when you see someone who's more established or makes a hell of a lot more
money than you or is very well known and they're saying the same things that you're saying
and seeing and so that's really my secret sauce is read and follow smart people.
Read a lot.
Consume information.
Yeah, and I think you bring up a really important point too.
It's not just reading.
I mean, yes, reading fellow researchers' work I feel like is really helpful because first
of all, they're doing research with lots of different types of employees, customers, etc.
They have a lot of perspectives just from that alone, but they also can share a lot
about their methods, about what's worked for them, what they found maybe not so helpful,
especially when it comes to theory versus practice because obviously there are things
that might be amazing to do in theory, but when it comes to actual resource constraints
or time constraints that you have, then well, yeah, maybe there are certain things that
have to go by the wayside in order to actually get work done, right?
So that certainly can be really beneficial, but I think there's also some value too in
just reading about the perspectives of others like you're saying, right?
Getting into the minds of others and understanding these different lifestyles or different ways
of living and the more you can get familiar with alternate ways of living other than yours
or alternate perspectives other than yours, it might be deeply uncomfortable in the moment,
but it will give you so much more to think about as you're creating some of these deliverables
and as you're creating some of these designs and suggesting changes to processes and stuff.
Right, right.
Yeah.
So what would you say is the thing that you love most, but if you had to point to a couple
things that really make this a field that you enjoy being part of, what are those things?
Yeah, that's a really great question too.
So I love that moment when you have this holistic view of an ecosystem and you can
see all of it's working and connected parts because you've mapped and diagrammed and you've
been able to understand what those dependencies and relationships are, right?
And you can see those patterns and pain points and the breakdowns in service, but you also
when you're in a mature environment and people respect and value design and service design,
it can be a great unifier across divisions, across lines of business, across different
stakeholders and the underlying theme of it is to build consensus, you know what I mean?
And to understand where to play, what to design, what to build.
If you really want to understand the passion of most service designers, I think, and myself
included, it's about ecosystems.
And if you look at a brain, if you understand the mind-body analogy and your brain is kind
of like a business, right?
You've got that frontal lobe, which is kind of like the thinking, speaking, memory stuff.
And that can be your C-suite, right?
Your perinatal lobe, your language, your touch, your feel, that would be like your UX, right?
And occipital lobe and the cerebellum, your balance, coordination, vision, perception,
color, all that stuff.
That can be more like product or in your temporal lobe, you're hearing, learning, feelings.
That's kind of like your marketing, right?
When you look at the different parts of the brain, they're just like different aspects
of a business.
But when you start talking about what it is that we provide to our customers, it's more
like a nervous system.
And so when you understand like how a nervous system diagram kind of looks like, imagine
something like you have a 4G or 5G cable or satellite or your Wi-Fi connection, right?
And that is all connected to computers, mobile devices, anything with an IPv6 connection.
And those are like nerve endings, right?
Those touch points for a customer.
And everything that we do is about that knowledge management of data that we're collecting from
those endpoints and so that we can provide a better service and better products for our
customers.
When we collect that data and we bring it back to the brain, it has to be centralized
and it has to be accurate and scrubbed, right?
And it has to inform some type of personalization and self-service.
Yeah.
And I think kind of hearkens back to what you mentioned earlier, which is, I mean, again,
nothing against visual design.
I think visual design is crucial.
It's the way that we communicate, the way that people see our designs and the way that
we can manipulate attention toward what we need people to look at.
So I think there really is a sort of fascinating aspect to really dissecting these ecosystems
of products, people, props, right?
All of these different systems and processes, right?
There's a lot to untangle in these ecosystems, in these networks of support.
And often if you like really difficult problems, like if you're someone who walks up to a
broken vacuum cleaner and you're like, I need to take this apart as opposed to, I'd
rather just throw the thing out and buy a new one, right?
I mean, obviously there might be a point where you're trying to take this apart, you kind
of lose your mind, but it's in that investigative process, in that, you know, un-piecing and
re-piecing together.
If you enjoy that sort of thing, service design is absolutely a field that allows you to do
that and to live in this space of ambiguity and questions and also of learning, right?
So I can definitely see the excitement in that and the passion in that.
It's funny that you bring that analogy up because trust me when I tell you, everyone
who's in service design or UX, our significant others absolutely hate us because of what
we do, because you can't go to a checkout, you can't walk through a line, you can't experience
a service, you can't run your car through a POS system, you can't just go to a car wash
without critiquing the hell out of it and saying, oh, the button's on the wrong place,
oh, this affordance would be better if it were down here, it would be better if it was
this color.
You know, my wife hates that stuff.
Like, we'll be just trying to check out and buy food and I'm like, well, look honey, let
me show you.
She's like, I know, I know it sucks.
Give me a break.
It's fine.
You see it everywhere.
You do.
And on the one hand, it's fun because then it gives you ideas for like, huh, this reminds
you of a work problem or this reminds me of something else I'm working on.
And maybe this could be, you know, an analogy that I can now use as a way to kind of think
through these, these problems.
So I guess on that note, like obviously there's some people who are like seasoned service
designers who might relate to a lot of what we're talking about, but there might also
be some folks who are, you know, thinking that maybe this is where I want to take my
career.
I would reiterate, read and consume a lot of information.
There's a lot of things out there that aren't very expensive.
You can get on Udemy for virtually nothing and learn.
You can take classes at NNG.
You can take classes at IDO.
You can do all sorts of stuff for continuing education.
There's also interactiondesign.org.
That's a great place to learn.
That's very inexpensive, but just know that other people have come before you and there's
a lot to glean from that.
And smart people really love to share their wisdom.
They're not trying to make a million dollars off of you or hustle you, like really smart
people want to share.
And so yes, they might have classes that cost money and it might be, you know, considerable
cost, but there's also a lot of free videos out there.
You know, NNG, IDO, they have, you have YouTube channels.
There's tons of stuff up there that you can Google just about anything on the NNG site
and it doesn't matter if it's personas or blueprints or how to research and you can
find it on there.
You'd be surprised how many people are sharing this information.
There's also Mark Fontaine, that service design show, you know, go watch his YouTube channel
because he talks to people all the time and has great content.
If you're just starting out and you have the time and you have the money and you're young
and you can move around, go to a college like SCAD.
You know, Savannah College of Art and Design has really come a long way, especially in
the last 10 or 15 years as far as their offerings.
And now it is really a great service design, UX design, everything, product design school.
So if you can afford to do that, go do that.
But I would caution too, like gently, but stay away from this business if you're attracted
to six-figure salaries, if you think that's what it's about.
If you've seen stock photography of people playing with stickies and, because that's
not what it's about.
It's not about playing around in fig jam with cupcake and unicorn and lollipop emojis.
I see a lot of that, a lot of people that are like coming in for all the wrong reasons
and they think it's about fun and games and it really isn't.
I want to caution you, this is a mostly thankless job.
And more often than not, fighting for people you'll never really know, other than if you
get the opportunity to research them and do ethnography or interviews, and you're gonna
be solving problems for them and finding pains and gaps, and you're gonna be in meetings
and war rooms and in message threads where you're fighting for them and representing
them with people who have different agendas than you or your customers have.
So if you don't understand the politics behind this work, and if you don't understand that
it's really about deep investigation and curiosity, and it's about learning and constant negotiation,
and you're gonna get your feelings hurt.
And so the main thing is what we mentioned previously, it's that storytelling for solving
human pain points and systems, and it's not about money or glory or accolades, and we
really do do this for the love of humans.
Yeah, I think that's a really fantastic way to wrap up the episode because I don't think
I can top that.
And you know, really, if you like complex problems and you love learning about people,
this is a great field for you.
And like Thomas said, I mean, kind of shameless plug about our YouTube videos, you know, even
if you don't want to come to one of our classes, although I'll certainly be happy to see you
there.
But you know, we do have YouTube videos, we have free articles, feel free to check out
our free stuff, because that's a great place to get started if you're not ready to dive
in with both feet.
So Thomas, if anyone wants to follow you and your work, where could you point people to?
Yeah, I'm on LinkedIn, I'm easy to find, I'm usually talking smack about service design
and UX and the value of research, you can find me and I'm always pretty active.
I post on there pretty regularly, I have a pretty decent presence.
So get on there, follow me, ask me questions, if you want to know how I do anything, I will
usually take the time if I can find it to set up a meeting with you, a Zoom call and
show you how I do things.
So reach out.
We'll definitely include a link to that LinkedIn in our episode notes and for any of the other
big names and research that you've shared, we'll also include some links to those great
thinkers as well.
All right, thank you.
Yeah, no problem.
Have a great day.
That was Thomas Wilson.
You can find links to learn more about him and other resources in the show notes, but
also keep in mind that our website has a growing body of knowledge about service blueprinting
and service design.
And don't forget, we do have that UX certification course on service blueprinting.
To learn more about any of that, check out our website, www.nngroup.com, that's N-N-G-R-O-U-P.com.
Finally, if you want to get the next episode lined up and downloaded on your listening
platform, make sure to follow or subscribe to our podcast.
This episode was hosted and produced by me, Therese Fessenden.
All editing and post-production is by Jonas Zellner.
Music is by Tiny Music and Dresden the Flamingo.
That's it for today.
Until next time, remember, keep it simple.