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NN/g UX Podcast

The Nielsen Norman Group (NNg) UX Podcast is a podcast on user experience research, design, strategy, and professions, hosted by Senior User Experience Specialist Therese Fessenden. Join us every month as she interviews industry experts, covering common questions, hot takes on pressing UX topics, and tips for building truly great user experiences. For free UX resources, references, and information on UX Certification opportunities, go to: www.nngroup.com The Nielsen Norman Group (NNg) UX Podcast is a podcast on user experience research, design, strategy, and professions, hosted by Senior User Experience Specialist Therese Fessenden. Join us every month as she interviews industry experts, covering common questions, hot takes on pressing UX topics, and tips for building truly great user experiences. For free UX resources, references, and information on UX Certification opportunities, go to: www.nngroup.com

Transcribed podcasts: 41
Time transcribed: 22h 36m 34s

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This is the Nielsen Norman Group UX Podcast.
I'm Therese Fessenden.
Last month, we talked about how user research has changed over time,
and how, for the most part, UX work is more highly valued than it's ever been,
which is great.
That said, there are still many pockets of the tech industry where that isn't the case.
And UX professionals continuously find themselves in a predicament
of having to defend their research budgets or practices.
So this month, I'm sharing an interview I had with David Glazier,
Senior Staff UX Strategy Lead of Digital Experience at Illumina.
He's worked with companies like Intuit, IDEO, Lead Crunch, and Razorfish, to name a few,
to help transform business strategies and corporate cultures
using human-centered research and design and effective storytelling techniques.
David shares some of his past compelling presentations with UX work
and offers some ideas for how to meaningfully communicate the lasting and real impacts of UX work.
Hi, David. Thanks for joining the show. How are you doing today?
Doing great. Thanks. Good to be here.
So how did you get into UX exactly?
Because I know from what you've told me before, you have some experience in sound design.
But yeah, I'm curious about that whole journey.
Yeah, it's an interesting one, falling into that.
I think it just stemmed from creative problem solving
was just one of those things that my brother and I practiced since childhood.
We were fortunate enough to have a father that had a well-equipped garage
with every tool, every nut and bolt, pieces of wood and metal that you could imagine.
So they encouraged us to just start building things,
which led to, well, he would tell us you need to draw up your plans first.
So we're sketching plans and then engineering them, and he's correcting us.
It just turned into documenting, prototyping, thinking about scaling the manufacturing
when we went to go sell clothing.
We used to make jester hats back in the day and sell them at school
and figured out how to make that stuff.
Sounds very entrepreneurial, yes.
So I think that just led into the crafts and the skills, building, designing, marketing,
all of those things led into the craft skills that's required as a UXer.
I think the other piece of it was hospitality.
Our grandmother taught us deep meanings of empathy
on how to think about who's going to be joining your home
and how to make things comfortable for them
or where to take them on a tour
and think about what's really going to be meaningful and impactful for them.
That was definitely one thing that led to it.
But I think you were getting at the jump or leap.
What was that?
Yeah, because it seems like, and I've listened to a couple other great podcasts
even about the topic of sound design
and how people will take such care,
picking just the right bloop or beep.
That does play a huge role in what ultimately people remember, recall, and perceive about an experience.
It seems like there's a very natural bridge
where you're thinking of things in such great detail
that it will ultimately create this intricate picture.
To your point, thinking of hospitality too,
where do you put people in a room?
How do you provide them what they need and help them feel the most comfortable?
It seems like that's certainly got some connection.
But yeah, was there something that was just like,
ah, this is it, an aha moment?
There was, yeah.
My brother had been at a company called IDEO.
It's a think tank company.
And he was based out of San Francisco at the time.
And he called me in a panic one night and said,
hey, I just got put on a project.
Somebody dropped the ball and they needed this vision video created.
The team's on a flight to China to present to the executives.
And we've got 24 hours to make one.
Can you help me?
At the time I was producing.
No pressure.
So the reason he called me was because
we'd worked on videos and stuff like that before.
And I had a music studio at that time dedicated to production.
And so he just asked if I could help him and get a videographer
and work together and craft this short little 60-second vision video,
which is something that comes with pretty much every,
it's just standard with every IDEO project.
It shows the story arc of the problem, the moment of change,
the solution, and then the effect and the impact it has on the person.
So all centered around the people, the person that you're affecting.
And so long story short, we cranked it out.
It went over really well.
They said, can you do another one?
Because it was so effective
and started doing more of those vision videos
and then started designing product sounds,
working with manufacturers, working with UX researchers,
and then going into more anthropological research
with solutions for the blind.
So everything from cars, medical devices, ATM machines,
domestic robots, to that big project with helping the blind navigate
complex and noisy environments,
that was that crossfade into UX.
Yeah, that sounds like something that would be really fulfilling
but also really challenging.
You both have to have incredible empathy,
perhaps even for a situation that you haven't been in, right?
And also find a way to really deep dive into that
and find some creative solutions.
So it certainly sounds like it was something fulfilling.
Well, I think that's probably why this makes sense
for this topic we're discussing is storytelling.
And a lot of times it takes way too much time or effort
to, say, do something in CGI,
whereas in a movie, if it goes dark and you just hear a sound,
it'll paint the picture in your mind.
So we would use the same approach
for a lot of these vision videos or these products
and understanding that how much is too much,
how little is too little, and just getting it right
is going to essentially allow your mind
to sew everything together and make it more real,
because that is another sense that if you can connect
the eyes and the ears, the more senses you connect,
it exponentially convinces you that something is good or real.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, it's funny you mention, actually,
the topic of sound in a dark room.
I think some of the scariest horror movies I've ever watched
have been ones where you don't necessarily see what's happening,
but you hear a lot of very unusual noises,
and it's enough for you to really transport yourself there,
even if you don't want to.
But yeah, on the topic of storytelling,
when showcasing things like user research,
it certainly sounds like with this ideal project,
it was, hey, here are all of the things we've learned
in these various different scenarios.
What is the best way to showcase the user research you've done?
Is it really going to be a film most of the time,
or are there other ways of telling a story
that you think are really compelling?
That's a good question.
I think it really depends on your audience.
And I think it's funny that we're talking about how to storytell
when it's really just using all of our UX best practices and skills
to craft that story.
Number one, we've got to know who our demographic is.
So the difference between an executive or a fellow UXer
are going to be interested in very different things,
at least in fidelity.
Mm-hmm.
If it's an investor or someone who just doesn't have creativity
and you need to convince them and bring them into the experience
so they can empathize,
then you've got to think about what it is that you're presenting.
And I don't want to talk too ambiguously,
so let me give you an example.
That project that we did for the blind,
we had to convince sightseeing executives
that this was going to work.
Mm-hmm.
So how in the world do you do that?
Mm.
So what we did was we crafted a script
to show what it was like to be blind using that solution.
Mm.
And then the script became an audio story,
like a movie but only audio.
Mm.
And it was in three-dimensional sound.
Mm.
So what I did was I built microphones that went in my ears,
followed the script, and it captured all the environments,
and then added in the sounds for the doors, the walking,
the sightseeing stick.
Mm-hmm.
And with the voice talent, like the doctor or the person,
you are hearing the person go, hmm, let me try this.
And you're hearing the doctor talk to them and say,
let me put this on your head and let me do this.
But you're hearing it in three-dimensional sound
because we crafted the way of sourcing it
through a binaural microphone.
Some of the harder stuff to get, I used a head,
built a dummy head with microphones in it
for harder to get to places.
But most of it was microphones that went right inside of my ear.
The story was crafted so that when you put those headphones on
and you close your eyes, you can't tell the difference.
It sounds like you're there.
Mm, that's really cool.
So that was the story.
It was, let's go present to them the change and the impact
that this project's going to have so that they can really feel
through the user's ears, if you will.
Yeah, yeah.
So they all got blindfolds.
They all got headphones, and we hit play.
And it was emotional.
People were really moved by it, or the executives were,
and it was just overwhelming for everybody.
And so it was a really touching moment for them to feel that deeply,
emotionally connected to who we're impacting positively.
It was a success, for sure, because we thought about
how we might just bring them into the experience.
Yeah, that sounds like it was something that was super impactful.
And I'm also, like, side note, I'm just wondering,
when you say microphones in your ears,
like, how big were these microphones?
I'm like, were they, I'm sorry,
this is what happens when you're not a sound designer.
I'm like, are they small microphones?
Are they big microphones?
How did you go about doing this process of recording what it's like?
So some of that experience I had with working for industrial designers
and manufacturing on some of those earlier projects
gave me some tools to know what is possible.
And so when we were trying to figure out how to do this,
I thought, man, the only way to really do this is,
I've got to figure out a way to capture it from my point of view so it's real.
It's on a real head.
It's capturing the binaural head-related transfer function,
which is basically, our mind is trained
to know where something is coming from directionally
because of the shape of our head and our ears
has tuned and trained every 360 degrees of the sphere of our head
to know where something's coming from.
So if you can just put the mics in your ears,
then it's pretty real.
Right, oh, so it's essentially recording things
the way your ears would be listening to things.
Yeah, that was the trick, because you asked how big they were.
They needed to go inside my ear.
Wow.
So finding the right microphone that could pick up that fidelity
but could also be powered so that it's a really good one,
and then having a portable rig that's high quality enough
to grab that movie level of a recording,
that was the first problem, was building that
and hand-soldering the wires to make everything work, and it did.
Wow, yeah, and this actually is making me reflect
on all of the times I've presented UX work,
and it's like, wow, there's a lot of opportunity
that potentially has been missed,
because I feel like a lot of the time
when researchers will be presenting what they've learned,
certainly usability testing clips or interview clips
are compelling because you literally see and hear
exactly what somebody is going through.
But often it's in the context of a lengthy 10 or 20,
maybe even 50-plus page research report,
and I feel like it may get lost sometimes.
So what do you think about taking something
like the research you've compiled?
What steps did you go through in your head where you're like,
okay, here's what we learned from our research.
Here's how that's going to be conveyed.
Do you have a process for strategizing that storytelling?
Yeah, the first is alignment with the stakeholder,
and then milestones along the way
to make sure that they're taken for the ride,
but not necessarily doing the work,
just so they see it and then they have an expectation,
and then it's met.
So it's like, hey, we want to accomplish this.
We think it's a problem.
We're going to go and discover and then report back.
Sounds good, thumbs up, get budget, go.
This is how we're going to do it.
We need to do global testing, regional testing,
or just Americas.
We're all aligned on what the risks,
rewards are for how deep we go,
and then we come back with results.
Now, the results, in my experience,
if you can balance between some type of measurement
because what gets measured gets made,
and that's really easy to say,
but I know from UX,
what's worked for me is blending qualitative
and quantitative inside of the interviews
so that when we do get done,
we have at least some kind of,
if it's time to task,
make sure that you do overall satisfaction
and feeling of completeness
or something that you can tie emotion to numbers.
And then if you are in observational research,
videotape the responses
so that you can make a video vignette
and show them the main problem
or the solve that had density
so you can make it easier to see the emotional reactions,
whether it's pain or delight.
It's a clean way to bring the stakeholder along for the ride
because they see that 30-second vignette
or that 60 seconds.
They feel like they just did
the two weeks of research with you.
And then when they see the user's emotion,
they're connecting with them,
and there's no lying here.
There's no biases.
They tell everybody what they want.
And then at that point, it's like a no-brainer.
That's how we got more budget where I'm at
was doing just that.
And once they saw it, they said,
we need to do more of this.
What should we do?
And I said, well, let's do this,
and let's hire more people,
and it just builds from there.
That's awesome.
Yeah, I guess let's talk about buy-in a bit
because I feel like that's such an evergreen topic
to put it nicely,
but also to kind of be sad about it at the same time,
where everywhere I go,
that's kind of the age-old question
is how do I get buy-in
and how do I ensure that I'm communicating
that what I'm doing has value?
And especially sounding like,
it seems like when you're doing a study like that one
or collecting your findings with contraptions,
like I remember you did a one-hour seminar with us
on VR previously, which was awesome.
I feel like it can sometimes feel like we're asking too much,
especially when we're in an organization
that's a bit resistant, perhaps, to user research.
So how might you make a case for these types of studies
before you've done it, I guess is my answer.
Because it seems like once you have done it,
once you have those clips, for example,
whether that's an audio recording, a video recording,
then you've really gotten your foot in the door
because that can really help to, like you said,
make people feel like they were there
and really connect with the customers.
But when we haven't done it,
we often don't have that ability.
So do you have any advice for that?
Do you have advice for world hunger while you're at it?
Okay.
Well, I can tell you that that VR thing at the time,
I mean, gosh, that was six, almost seven years ago.
That was bleeding edge.
There wasn't very many people doing it
other than the military and some other pretty big shops.
But the way I convinced them to do it
was just presenting the benefits, the pros and the cons,
and then just said at the end,
if all of this isn't enough
and you don't find any value in this
when we just do this one test, give me two weeks.
And if at the end of that you still don't think it's valuable,
I'll pay for everything.
Because I knew it was going to work.
This was at a time when I was focused on industrial design and IoT.
And so connecting your digital prototypes
into, let's say, a machine that hasn't been built yet.
Let's say it's an ATM machine or something.
So we did stuff for the subway and security,
and it was enormous.
They would be super heavy, too hard to ship anywhere.
You wouldn't be able to mock up foam core mockups
over and over again if you keep changing little things.
So we basically just took the skin of the industrial design,
threw it into VR, made it into components, like pieces,
so we could move stuff around.
And then I synced up the prototypes to VR
so that you could touch the prototype inside of VR
and actually change the buttons, change the machine.
And it worked out awesome.
We were able to work even with clients,
and they would say, well, this seems a little too high.
Right at the spot would move it.
And he's like, I like the screen on the other one,
and I'd just swap it out.
And within minutes, we were done with something
that could have taken weeks of going back and forth.
Yeah.
That real-time feedback and really being able to tangibly experience
whatever it is that's being prototyped,
whether that's a physical object or a digital object.
It certainly seems like having the ability to put somebody through it
is such a valuable task to do
for whenever you're trying to communicate the value of UX work.
For certain things, right?
Because you were asking me, when is it appropriate?
Yeah, yeah.
And VR is not appropriate for everything.
It really comes in handy when we talked about,
does it make sense to just put a backpack computer and a headset on
instead of foam core, shipping stuff all over the country?
Or if it's hazardous or noisy environments, you need to AB,
like a noisy city versus subway versus in the middle of the Antarctic.
So we did that.
We were able to switch them on the fly
and change the locations with environmental change.
Yeah, so it seems like the big consideration there,
or the way that maybe you might pitch it to somebody who is skeptical is,
hey, we can do it the other way,
but here's the risk and here's the subsequent cost of that.
And if we do it this way, sure, maybe there's an initial investment
that might not seem the most comfortable,
but it can lead to XYZ cost savings
because now we're not shipping parts all over the country.
We're not running into, oh, we got to do a whole bunch of rework
because the client is unhappy with something we've designed
and we now have to finesse the solution
and that's going to push our deadline by another few weeks
or whatever it might be.
So it seems like that's one great way to help people realize,
like, ah, okay, there is certainly a value
to doing some of this prep work now.
Yeah, and I think contraptions are ideal for two things.
I think it's obvious if it's a natural part of the user's life or experience,
we need to use it.
So if it's on a phone, test on the phone.
Don't have them test on a screen that looks like a phone.
It seems, I know it's funny to laugh, I laugh at it too,
but it's something I see all the time
and especially when you're in a time crunch,
sometimes it's tempting and I know that it's tempting
because you're just like, oh, we have a computer here.
It's like, no, it is going to take longer,
but it's worth doing the installation on somebody's actual phone,
if possible even.
Yeah, thumbs are different than track pads for sure.
But I think the contraptions can help depending on your audience.
If they're skeptical, sometimes you can use some of the heat,
maybe heat map stuff with goggles.
Like heat map goggles could come in handy
if somebody just really doesn't understand the fundamentals,
but I'm of the school of most contraptions are completely worthless
in comparison to good, empathetic eyes
and listening and seeing body language
on how someone goes through an experience,
I think is far superior to any contraption.
And the contraptions are distracting.
So if you can get by without using them,
I would recommend use them as little as possible.
Yeah.
Yeah, I agree.
And sometimes I think we may even overcomplicate things
with some of them depending on how much value you really get out of it.
But yeah, I guess to the point of having stakeholders
see the value by watching people.
Yeah, I think that's the big question,
is why are we inviting these stakeholders or non-UXers?
Is it to get them to see how long it takes to do a usability session?
And then they can actually envision,
oh, okay, so this is work that needs time for one.
Or is it because they currently don't believe
in some of the research findings,
in which case maybe it's more about highlighting
some representative users or customers
and letting them see what those reactions are really like.
So I think that does kind of shift
whether you might invite someone in real time session
versus perhaps showing a recording after the fact.
Okay. So I guess on the topic of crafting these presentations,
since we do have to plan in advance,
probably have a couple of clips selected,
what do you think people should think about
when they're considering their audience for these presentations?
If you're presenting to a fellow UXer, what is going to be different?
I know you mentioned that we might be interested in some details
more than, say, other stakeholders would be interested in other details.
What have you found tends to resonate with different groups?
I think we touched on this a little bit earlier.
An executive summary is very different than, like, a fellow UXer.
But they all still need to see the same thing.
It's just different fidelities, at least in my opinion.
What I find helpful is even if I'm just flashing through images of the research,
let's say I've got an Excel sheet with all those data points for every question.
Let's say there's 40 questions and hours' worth,
and it's represented in 12 different language in 32 countries, right?
It's going to be massive.
And you're not going to be able to see or interpret any of it,
but you're going to be able to see that there's a ton of data on the page.
For an executive, that's enough for them to go, wow, okay, so what does it mean?
Right?
And that's all they needed.
Where maybe you and I or a fellow UXer is like, let me see the raw data.
I want to comb through it.
I want to do a keyword research.
I want to do a keyword search on it and see if the density that you got aligns with maybe some of my needs
or change some of the filters to see if it can help another team.
And that's what the appendix is for, is linked out.
If you want to go deep, go for it.
But to your point, for some people, that stuff is privileged information
because they might go digging and making interpretations that are not sound
or scientifically sound.
Yeah.
And I guess with the knowledge comes the responsibility of how that knowledge gets distributed
and perhaps how it's presented in some ways, both, yes, presenting the highlights.
But I also appreciate what you said, too, about those highlights versus what's presented to UXers.
It's not different information.
It's just a difference in fidelity.
It's a difference in the level of detail.
And I think that's important, too, because I have seen cases where we're like, oh, well, we're going to tell this to the executives
because it'll freak them out a little bit less than what's really happening.
And then we're going to tell the UXers this so that we can actually work on fixing the problem.
So I feel like that ends up eroding trust in many ways with what it is we do.
So I do think there is a responsibility to keeping people honest
but also empowering those who do have the ability to make positive impacts.
You touched on something really good there.
Having the hard conversation is probably, I know that some might disagree,
but if you have the integrity to, and you can always find a nice way of presenting it,
to let someone know where we're failing and how we could do better, the executives appreciate that.
They trust you.
They know you're not glossing over and cherry-picking your data.
And they know that you're always going to find something good and something bad.
So if you can present both and be upfront and honest about it,
it's just going to build your respect and your brand for things going so much more smoothly in the future.
Yeah. And I appreciate what you said, too, about something good and something bad
because I feel like as UXers, we're like magnets toward all of the usability issues.
And often we're just like, oh, yeah, that did work, but that's standard.
And it's like, no, we have to also acknowledge what works so that, A, we don't change it,
but B, we're seen as someone who is objective and who isn't just always trying to exert their UX hammer on everything
to suddenly make everything perfect or kind of the grim reaper of UX, I think, is what Paige Laubheimer,
one of my colleagues, has called it.
But, yeah, you want to make sure you're measured, you're objective, and having that balanced view.
So, yeah, I totally agree.
That's a good point.
Yeah. Well, I guess to kind of close, because it's hard to believe, but we're already at that time.
Do you have any parting words of advice for somebody who is looking to, you know,
maybe prepare for a presentation or even to prepare for upcoming research?
Like, do you have any words of wisdom?
Yeah, sure. So if you're preparing for research, I would recommend aligning with business goals
and find out what they're after so that you can always compare your user goals and insights to those things.
I think that's one of the most powerful slides in a presentation for executives
is when they see business needs and user needs side by side
and showing line item one on each side harmonious with each other or dissonant
to where it's easy to understand where you're winning or where you need to focus.
And I think that's a good starting point.
As far as, like, presenting to prepare, I think we touched on know who your audience is.
And just I always recommend starting with just an outline, an agenda,
of, like, what the chapters are going to be in your story.
And if you can organize everything into the why, how, and the what,
then your story will naturally follow into why are we doing this,
how did we go about it, and what is the outcome.
That way, you know you've touched on all three.
It keeps things really concise, and it's a natural flow of how we all think.
Yeah. And I know my colleague Rachel has this course about storytelling in UX,
so shameless plug for that course.
But I do appreciate a couple things that she covers,
which is the structure of storytelling.
There's so many nuances to how you can structure a story.
But I think what it really boils down to is what you said, those three things,
the why, the how, and the what.
And if you start off with the call to adventure, like, why are we even doing this,
then that's going to bring people in and give people a sense of meaning
for when they are looking or listening, whether that's something visual or not.
So yeah, I think that's great advice.
But yeah, thank you, David.
This has been a lot of fun.
If people want to learn more about your work, what it is you're up to next,
where could you point people to?
For now, the best place would be on LinkedIn.
My handle is LinkedIn.
It's David Glazier, the way it's spelled, and there's no extra little things on there.
It's just my name.
Nice and simple.
Yeah.
From there, I've been working on figuring out what to share.
As you know, a lot of my past experience was proprietary,
and I couldn't really share a lot of it.
As is the nature of a lot of UX work is what I'm learning over the years.
But it's okay to talk about, and we can talk more about those things
if anybody wants to inquire about it.
Yeah, awesome.
Thank you, David. I hope you have a great rest of your day.
Thanks. It's been a lot of fun.
Look forward to talking to you again soon.
Definitely.
Thanks for listening to this episode of the NNEG UX Podcast.
If you want to learn more about user research or how to present UX work,
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You can find information about all of these and more at our website,
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please leave a rating and hit subscribe.
This show is hosted and produced by me, Therese Fessenden,
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That's it for today's show.
Until next time, remember, keep it simple.