This is the Nielsen Norman Group UX Podcast.
I'm your host, Therese Fessenden.
On this monthly show, you'll hear interviews with UX thought leaders about fundamental
UX topics, common industry questions, and discussions on how great UX can truly transform
the world.
This month, I have the privilege of interviewing Aurora Harley, Senior UX Specialist with NNG.
Aurora volunteered to be my mentor during my first year at NNG, and has continued to
offer sage advice and helpful perspectives for years after that commitment.
She currently teaches six of the 40 or so certification classes that NNG offers.
And her research ranges greatly between web and application usability, and more recently,
the implications of augmented reality in this new post-pandemic reality.
In this episode, we talk about how the pandemic has impacted how we work, how to stay creative
and productive during times of sustained stress, how to reframe constraints and challenges
as opportunities to innovate, and how to cultivate a culture of trust and well-being when distance
separates all of us.
So if you find yourself stuck in a rut, I hope this episode gives you a place to start.
With that, I'm excited to welcome Aurora Harley.
Welcome to our podcast, Aurora.
Thanks for doing this with us.
How are you doing today?
How's life where you are?
Life is pretty good.
A little, you know, wild with a toddler running around the house, but overall, you know, couldn't
ask for much more.
Yeah.
So how's Ventura doing these days?
Are the fires mostly like, oh yeah, at this point, are they?
Yeah.
So we've been pretty lucky in Ventura.
There haven't been any fires too close to us.
So air quality has been good.
We didn't have to deal with all the smoke, like, you know, up in the Bay Area.
Yeah.
It has been a crazy time for lack of a better term.
For all who are listening right now, Aurora teaches like six different classes with energy.
Some of them being, you know, the human mind and usability, analytics, omni-channel, and
a number of others that for some reason I'm forgetting right now.
But those are just, you know, some examples.
And I can only imagine tackling all the things you're doing with a wild toddler running around
with wildfires, with a pandemic.
So, you know, I imagine that teaching these classes these days is a bit different.
How would you say your work has really changed over the last few months, you know, during
this pandemic and this work could be, you know, your own work and maybe the work that
others are doing related to your classes?
I'm curious.
Yeah.
So I think the biggest, you know, obvious change is, you know, people working from home.
I think especially in our field where, you know, we're not essential workers, you know,
in the way that we have to be at a specific location and doing these, you know, services
in person.
And so, you know, especially I think in UX, we're able to have that switch and work from
home and work remotely and in a distributed way from people.
And actually probably the one class, one of the classes you forgot that I teach is ideation.
Right?
So how do people collaborate and come up with ideas and, you know, work together to be really
creative?
And I think that's something that has definitely changed with a pandemic is, you know, how
can we do more of our work remotely?
How can we switch to maybe doing ideation and other, you know, collaboration asynchronously
instead of, you know, all being in the same place and all being in one, you know, single
Zoom meeting altogether.
And I think one thing that, you know, should definitely not be taken for granted is when
people are working from home and especially for people who haven't been doing this for
a long time, like we at NNG have always, you know, worked primarily from home whenever
we're not traveling.
So I think we're used to it.
But if you're not used to it, working on your own at home can feel really isolating.
You know, even if you're, you know, you don't live alone, like you're, you know, like me
with a family and everyone else at home, like you're still isolated from your work family.
And so, you know, not having those small side conversations that we probably took for granted
when you had them like in a physical office.
All of that I think can feel really isolating for people and definitely affect not only
the methods that they have to use to work, but also how people feel about getting that
work done.
Right.
Absolutely.
It has been a bit isolating in a different way.
And these times, man, I guess I will say I'm tired and I'm trying to find a better way
to express my sentiment around how I feel about these times because I feel like every
TV advertisement or radio advertisement I hear begins with the phrase in these uncertain
times.
And I'm just, I feel like there has to be a better way to express myself.
So I don't know, maybe my own creativity is faltering.
And I'm sure others are feeling a similar strain.
I don't know.
What do you think?
I mean, companies should have creative, more creative license during these sort of times
or is it better to be safe?
I don't know.
I guess I'm wondering if this is like a collective example of the world's writer's block during
a pandemic or if there really is a better way, I don't know, to reach out to people.
What do you think about the state of creativity where it is right now?
Yeah.
I think there's like two aspects to your question.
The one is, should companies have to purposely say things around like, oh, in these uncertain
times, like you said, or can you skip that and just be empathetic and know that people
know, like you don't have to remind them that things are bad or that things are in a certain
way.
And one thing that we talk about in the human mind a lot, and I think you probably talked
about in your course on persuasive is priming.
And so that's something that I've been thinking about by continuing to point to these unprecedented
times and how terrible things are.
Is that just priming people to feel worse, like remind them that things are bad and that
things are different than they used to be a year ago.
So maybe it's time to just, rather than trying to think of a way to reword it, just stop
and just say whatever it is that you're trying to say after that.
I think there's being empathetic and acknowledging that things are different without having to
remind people that things are bad.
Yeah, that's a really great point.
Just kind of cutting through the fat of what it is we're trying to say and really drilling
down to the deeper message, which is what needs are we really meeting for people?
Are we able to address those needs and concerns first and foremost, rather than kind of deliberate
on the fact that everyone already knows that the situation is not ideal.
So you bring up a really great point that maybe the best way to address our audience
is honestly, and also giving people the answers that they ultimately care about.
Yeah, exactly.
Just like cut to their benefit.
And then I think the other aspect of your question that I skipped over is our own creativity.
And I think I kind of did it to you just now.
I think one huge part of trying to be creative is to, and this is something that like Don
Norman told me the first time that I actually met him in person after being hired, is his
stories around how you never answer the question that's been given to you.
And I feel like we can do the same thing with the pandemic and all of these challenges that
people are facing is not just focusing on that, but I don't know, like either moving
past it or around it or coming up with some other way of framing that so that you can
look at things from a different light and then answer those.
And so I love, and I think he actually did a video on this recently on our website about
how we can look at challenges as challenges, or we can look at it as opportunities to be
more creative.
And how can you look at something from this different light and say, you know what?
Things are different.
We know maybe different in a bad way, but what else can we do?
Maybe this is a great opportunity for us to take a step back and have that kind of retrospective
on how things have been going or how we've been doing things, what's been working and
what hasn't been working and use that as an opportunity to make things better and different
in a good way.
Yeah, that's a really good perspective, thinking about challenges as opportunities.
And I think I remember sitting in on the ideation course, now that you reminded me, thank you,
the ideation course talks a little bit about constraints as opportunities or constraints
as a way to innovate.
Can you talk a little bit about that and maybe how we can apply that in the current state
of affairs?
Yeah.
So the main idea that is a little bit of a paradox is that when you're given more constraints,
it can actually force you to be more creative.
And so having these constraints and guidelines to work within can help you actually just
focus better on different aspects of a problem.
I love to think about how, and I happen to have one in front of me, like a blank piece
of paper, but people talk about how the blank paper problem, like working off of nothing,
it's so hard.
And so if you are given zero direction, it's tough to come up with anything and to generate
ideas or to figure out any way to move forward when you have infinite possibilities or infinite
directions that you could go in.
But once you're given something, once you're given that box, I know everyone always talks
about how you should think outside of the box, but it's hard to think if there is no
box.
So you want to know what the box is.
You want to be able to examine the edges of the box and look at the inside of the box
and now look at the outside of the box.
But if that box didn't exist, being creative would be so much harder.
So that's something that we talk about in the ideation course is how to provide that
structure and maybe different types of boxes that you can play around with to see what
generates the best ideas for you or what works for this particular context and this particular
problem.
And so a lot of these structured techniques, really anytime you're feeling stuck in a rut,
just having one small area of focus can at least get you moving forward.
And then you might realize that that's not the right direction and you can switch gears,
but it's just any little thing to get you started.
And that's why the constraints are so helpful, just helping you pick one direction or one
path to go down and start exploring before you go explore other paths as well.
Okay.
Yeah.
So it seems like by introducing a constraint, that's really how you help yourself move forward
by narrowing the focus as opposed to making everything in the world possible, while anything
in the world truly is possible.
But when you have that constraint, it allows you to work with a more manageable body of
ideas and then from there you can sort of grow.
So I guess on the topic of constraints, how would you recommend, I know you mentioned
some structured techniques, but especially now that we're kind of distributed, do you
have any recommendations or advice for people who are in newly remote UX teams, how they
can better tackle creative UX problem solving, basically?
And I realize people can't meet in person and there are lots of small things people
can do, but yeah, any advice on that?
Well, I'm sure our audience would really love to hear it.
I would love to hear it.
I think it's funny because you mentioned that it can be hard to meet, but really if you
can meet with other people, I think it is important to still stay connected.
So like I said, when people feel really isolated, there's also an aspect with creativity and
productivity in general that if we are in a really stressful mindset, people tend to
only consider the very first solution without considering others.
So that's why I like to talk about this classic example of how if you ever notice emergency
exit doors, they always push out because if you're in that situation, you're not going
to be evaluating the doorknob and trying to remember what are all of the affordances for
this doorknob?
Should I push it?
Should I pull it?
In that situation, you're just like, ah, where's the door?
You have to be able to push out to leave.
And so I feel like that's kind of what the pandemic has done to people, is put people
in this really stressful environment when we're like, what do we do?
How do we work?
How can we solve these problems?
So I think one big tip is to figure out for you, how can you remove those stressors?
How can you get yourself into a more positive mindset?
And I know that sounds silly, but we also talk about how in ideation, a happy team is
a creative team and so you kind of do need people to be in somewhat of a good mood to
be able to collaborate and generate good solutions.
Ideation should be fun.
Coming up with ideas and coming up with solutions should be fun.
But if you're in a bad mood, nothing seems fun if you're not in that positive mindset.
So I know right now people are talking so much about self-care and the importance of
self-care.
And for work, we're not going to go into self-care spa mode for work.
Can you maybe start a new Slack channel that is all about jokes or a funny meme of the
day?
I don't know.
But some way to inject fun back into your work and some way to also try to feel connected
to the people that you work with if you can, I think that always helps taking breaks when
you need to.
Like if you're feeling stuck on a certain project, put it down, start something else.
Like I do this all the time when I'm struggling to work on something and I just go, I take
a break.
I step away from the desk, go outside for a quick walk around the block or even just
like pick a different project that I know I can do.
I can make some incremental progress on a more mindless, mundane task and then like
come back to the creative thing once I've given myself the chance to rest.
So yeah, or like figuring out just like what motivates you, like what motivates you, Therese?
Like for me, talking with my coworkers, anything that gives me a chance to help someone out,
that motivates me.
And so sometimes like if I'm just not feeling work that day, I tend to reach out like, anyone
need help with anything?
I'm able to bounce ideas around like if somebody wants, needs a sounding board.
And then for me, like that re-energizes me and re-motivates me and then I feel more productive
to work back on my own stuff too.
Yeah.
I think you tackled a really important point, which is that in a state of constant stress,
like we tend to narrow our focus.
Like you just said, we barrel through that door as opposed to deliberating whether it's
a push or pull door to ensure that we are safe in some way.
And for those who maybe have attended some sort of psychology class before, then you
know about Maslow's hierarchy of needs.
But for those who haven't, the idea behind Maslow's hierarchy of needs is that at the
very, very bottom of that pyramid, you've got your physical needs, your food, water,
shelter.
And then as you progress up that ladder, the next level is like safety and security, which
by and large, a lot of people are struggling with because when you go outside, when you
go food shopping, there's that stress that something is at risk somehow.
And then above that, you've got the social aspect, belonging, the fact that we're not
engaging socially as much anymore, that's yet another need that's not being met.
And then only after that, can we really tackle those higher level needs like fulfillment
at work and often creativity is kind of part of that process.
So it seems like, first of all, we have to forgive ourselves for having human needs,
psychological needs.
And the second part to that is recognizing where we're lacking in those needs and kind
of supplementing however we can.
So like for you, Aurora, you just mentioned talking to coworkers, seeing what people need,
helping a coworker with a podcast that she might be recording.
So absolutely, that's a great way to reenergize and supplement the very real needs you have.
And I know maybe spa days actually don't sound like a bad idea, but even if you're sanctioned
by your job, I realize that's very hard to ask for a lot of employers, but you can still
work on yourself and the things that help you to be a more productive person.
You can build those into work.
And so one thing that I often find helps my productivity is time blocking and just saying
like, okay, for these 10 minutes or these 20 minutes, I'm just going to make as much
progress in this one thing as possible.
Or maybe that's like generating XML, as many ideas related to this redesign as possible
in this small block of time.
And then, don't laugh at me, Therese, but I build in my spa time into that.
So I know that-
I'm sorry, I laughed.
I know you said not to, but I did.
I said not to laugh at me.
But the beauty face masks, a lot of times those are like 10 minutes.
So I will, no joke, go put on my face mask and be like, okay, my 10 minute timer is set.
I'm going to answer all of these emails or whatever it is in my 10 minutes.
And I have to have this done because then I got to go wash this off.
That's brilliant.
Yeah.
Or I light a candle during certain parts of my work.
I don't know.
I think the biggest thing is to take that step and I love that you brought up the hierarchy
of needs.
So take that step back and just evaluate how are you feeling?
Rather than trying to solve this problem of how to be more creative, I want to see the
full picture.
What else is going on here that is causing me to feel not as creative as I want to be
or not as productive as I want to be?
And then, can I address those needs?
How can I do that in a creative way?
And then see how you feel, see what works for you.
I think that's fantastic advice.
And I love what you said too about making a fun environment or basically creating and
fostering that fun environment for idea generation because you're right.
It's a lot easier to generate ideas when you're in not just a happy mood, but a safe mood
where you feel like you can be vulnerable around these people.
And it often requires a really high level of trust in order for people to be willing
to share some of these ideas.
So any advice for fostering that environment of creativity for others?
You know, especially for people who have their managers or they have a team that they work
with, I think it's important to stay connected to those people and not just at the base,
you know, what's your status on this project, but actually getting to know them as a person.
Like you just said, you need to be comfortable with the people that you're working with in
order to be in a good mood and to generate those ideas.
And you know, I think part of that is like bringing your, I don't know, I'm one of those
people who are like all in, like I will bring my whole self into everything that I do.
And so once you get to know me, like, you know, all of me, I'm an open book.
I will talk about my toddler.
I will talk about like my cat, like anything in my life.
But I think like that's always really fostered the sense with people that I work with that
they can share and they can be real and honest as well.
And then also like turning those things, like you said, and focusing on the good.
So I always think it's worth the time whenever I meet with somebody to generate ideas.
Like I spend five minutes or 10 minutes just like asking somebody, you know, how are you?
How are you doing?
And then, you know, trying to make sure that they're in a pretty good place before switching
gears and saying like, all right, you know, for this project, like let's start talking
about this now.
And so I think the more that you can do that, it also models it for them to realize like,
that's okay.
You know, like I know that work is work, but I definitely want you to be in this mindset
of feeling taken care of and feeling supported.
And so I think the more that you can show people that you're supporting them in all
aspects helps their work as well.
I don't know, like maybe if you're a manager, like give people a stipend, like can they
like spend, I don't know, some small amount on like setting up their work environment
to make sure that they're not like just working like literally from their bed, you know, like
do people have an environment that they can actually feel comfortable in?
Can you send them artwork for, you know, for their office or I don't know, more post-it
notes, more like dry erase markers, like whatever materials that they need to be able to be
creative and have this like dedicated, you know, work zone that they feel comfortable
in.
Yeah.
I also think that helps like, well, for one, just as at the time that we're recording this,
I realized that this, maybe this will change by the time this is released.
But at the time that this has been recorded, IKEA was having a desk shortage.
And so there are some people who actually do have to work in, you know, non-ideal places.
And you bring up a valid point that if people don't create that environment somehow, even
if it's not by a desk, if it means setting up shop somewhere else, like on a kitchen
table and then ensuring that now this person has like a desk lamp so that they can do their
work.
Right.
Some really small things.
But I think the bigger point that, you know, underneath all of these, right, because it's
not just about the materials, but also about the trust that's being fostered between the
trust and the support to show that like we, we as a business care about, you know, you
are workers like as people, and we want to make sure that you're set up to, to do the
work that you need to do.
And if you don't feel, if you don't feel supported in that way, then you're not going to be producing
good work.
I guess, yeah, the last thing that I think is worth mentioning is in this remote environment,
I think people need to trust each other more and also, you know, be okay with the fact
that we're sharing our workspaces now with others.
And I know there's often a lot of anxiety.
I've been on so many different, you know, Zoom meetings where people hide behind the
video and never turn their video on and are somewhat ashamed or whatever, like don't want
to show that there's kids running around in the background.
And I get it.
Part of that is, you know, wanting to present a very professional kind of corporate self.
But the reality is we are human beings with families and with, with pets and children
who photo bomb or, you know, we'll Zoom bomb our calls.
And I think the more that we can make that acceptable and part of working remotely, then
the more we can be vulnerable and build up that trust.
So I guess that's, that was kind of long winded, but ultimately I'm trying to say we should
make it okay again to be human.
And I think Aurora people like you are helping to do that.
So thank you.
Any other last words you'd like to share with our audience tips to keep our head up for,
for the foreseeable future?
Yeah, I guess my main tip is, I mean, like you said, one, turn on your video when you
meet with people.
I love that you brought that up because like it's so hard talking to a black square.
And so, yeah, you don't have to look perfect.
You all, everyone, you all look beautiful in your own way.
Just turn on the camera and let people see you.
And that takes away so much of the awkwardness of meeting remotely.
Like you really do want to be able to see that person if you're on a call with them.
But I think overall, like my main tip would be to always try to look for the good things.
And maybe that's just, you know, I've been watching a lot of Daniel Tiger and they talk
about like looking for the helpers and like trying to be positive.
But it is true, you know, to, there's like a magic to being that optimistic, positive
person and having that ability to look at things.
Like I said, look at those opportunities, those challenges as opportunities and see,
you know, see not just the problems, but see that there could be a way to solve those problems.
And you could be that person driving that change and making things better rather than
just wallowing in the problems that exist.
And I feel like the pandemic has kind of shown me those two sides of things, right?
There's people who, you know, definitely like hunker down and, you know, weather the storm.
And then there's those people who see the storm coming and I don't know, design better,
like storm prediction tools or better shelters for people, or you know, I don't know, making
better augmented reality tools to let people more confidently buy something without seeing
it in real life.
Like there's so much opportunity right now to see how people, how people's behaviors
have been changing.
And then to meet those challenges with really creative, innovative solutions.
So yeah, so I think you just try to, try to flip your mindset, try to turn that frown
upside down.
I feel like a hippie or something like.
No, I think that's fantastic advice to really reframe the way we look at things and to see
the opportunities, you know, in all that's presented to us.
So I think that's a good note to end on.
Thanks Aurora for your time, for chatting with me.
It's always a pleasure.
I hope you have a good rest of your day.
Thank you.
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