Welcome to the WAN Show guys. We would like to apologize for the incredible slowness with which we got the show going today
We had a number of issues. First and foremost was the fact that our
Where is that thing because I think we should just destroy it on camera, okay?
So our Behringer headphone splitter and amplifier
Has gone further than having one dead port and has now failed outright and is causing all kinds of random interference so this thing
Can die in a fire
Then my DisplayPort output on my other notebook you can see I'm not using my notebook this week decided that it did not
Want to be imported by the Avermedia capture card nor the Blackmagic extra backup capture card that we have on our stream PC
So I had to run and find another notebook to use so between those two issues. We've had to redo our audio setup
We've had to change over my notebook
And I believe we actually redid the networking in this room while we were at it
And we did all that in a half an hour so as much as we're very sorry for being late
We do sincerely apologize. We hope that you're at least a little bit impressed that we managed to bring the show to you at all today
So guys without further ado welcome to the WAN Show our topics today
Oh first of all our special guest is Wendell from tech syndicate by popular demand
We're actually going to be bringing him on pretty much right away because we're starting late
And we're gonna have a ton of discussion about AMD's event that just ran this week
There's lots of new stuff about mantle AMD's upcoming Kaveri AP use in January as well
As I mean just cool stop software stuff like Tress FX 2.0
Which is apparently gonna do more than make a ponytail waggle back and forth realistically most of the time
We've also got lots of console stuff to talk about so
one of them of the many console topics is the PS4 streaming to Vita compared to
Nvidia streaming from a PC to Nvidia shield which I think is actually pretty interesting yeah
We actually got a ps4 today
So we are definitely gonna be doing some high-speed footage comparing the latency of shields to the latency of ps4
I guess we'll have to get a Vita. Oh balls cable. We'll have to do that. Okay anyway
You're probably gonna use without further ado. Here's the intro
So
Guys our sponsor for the WAN show this week is hotspot shield hotspot shield is an easy VPN solution
And there's actually a couple misconceptions about it
So people think that it is ad supported
No if you buy the elite version and you use offer code Linus you save 20%
And it is not ad supported if you're using elite so VPNs allow you to mask your location and identity
From casual browsers, I mean if the NSA is real determined to figure out who you are they probably can
But it also allows you to circumvent
Geographical restrictions on services such as Netflix or even Google services in countries where they're not allowed to be used so it's
Yeah, I mean I just said everything it does right
Essentially alright so without further ado guys, let's launch into our first topic before we have Wendell join us so
Kaveri is AMD's upcoming APU architecture
So it's going to be changing over from the previous generation cores to I believe on bollocks. What's the new one called?
Is it steamroller or?
No, I think it's really so they're gonna be changing over to steamroller cores, which is going to amount to essentially
Improved performance and single-threaded applications, which let's face it guys AMD has been due to deliver us for a
While here we've been looking at pretty much for a from a per clock basis
Not a whole lot of improvement in the last few generations of AMD processors
They've done things like adding more cores, and they've done things like increasing clock speeds
But the actual IPC hasn't changed a whole lot, so we're gonna see a dramatic improvement there
The other thing that we're going to see improved is
multi-threaded performance
So this is going to be augmented by certain software things that are going to be changing over the next little while particularly for gamers with
mantle but Kaveri is going to improve single-threaded performance multi-threaded performance and
Dramatically improved GPU performance, so this was a tweet from Ryan shroud who I've actually arranged to join us next week
I don't know if you knew this yet cool, so Ryan's gonna be joining us next week
He was at the event we unfortunately weren't able to attend, but this tweet
He says mm-hmm just saw AMD Kaveri running battlefield 4 at 1080p
medium settings beating the Intel 4770 K and GeForce GT 630 GPU
Impressive especially impressive when you consider that that Kaveri CPU APU GPU whatever you want to call it that Kaveri APU is probably gonna
Be significantly less expensive than that other solution now
I suspect that AMD was picking and choosing the comparison a little carefully there because the 4770 K costs
$100 more than a 4670 K and doesn't tangibly improve the gaming performance in most games whereas spending that extra hundred dollars on a GPU
But it's kind of a field for maybe but in battlefield for maybe
But I think we can still agree that spending another hundred dollars on a GPU
It's gonna be a bigger difference, but a bigger difference
We actually just did some testing recently that maybe you'd like to talk about a little bit
So we normally don't review low-end stuff
And we normally don't review stuff that but we think is stupid
Because what's the point of us giving exposure to products that we think are stupid?
But recently just to kind of you know fly in the face of everyone saying how we're this and we're that and we don't do
These things I decided to do it we grabbed an r7 240 graphics card
Which is an $80 card very value-oriented, or is it no?
No, really
That's all you're gonna say about if you if you put down the rebate and actually do it unlike many people
No to do and decide to get a 70s
77 77 70 yes
So many sevens a 77 70 you pay the rebate
It's basically the same price and is incredibly better
And if you decide to get a you want a new generation one if you shelve out a little bit more and get a 260 X
It's way way way way way better. So
Basically, Linus wanted to torture me and have me test to r7 240 which was torture. Yeah
What was benchmarking like at 9 frames per second? I'm just curious
I I had to run the Far Cry benchmark way more than I normally run it
Because if you guys have seen the Far Cry benchmarking video, you know
I go around that loop and I kind of bend around the corners
I'm trying to get up and hit those barrels whenever and I have to be hitting the barrels and I try to dodge guys
That's and rockets. I have to dodge rockets dodge all the rockets
I get hit by rockets have to restart because it changes the frame rate too much
So I was constantly getting hit by rockets
So I couldn't dodge them just can't move properly and I was constantly like just skimming barrels not hitting them
I just being like ah, well, I need that time increase. So I kind of need to restart
Come on
Or I'd hit an angle around a corner just kind of weird and hit something and it would stop the car and I'm just like, okay
So basically guys what we're trying to say here is if you really want a value optimized graphic solution
Check out AP use we actually have a build guide that we're gonna be working on very very soon
We're gonna be bringing that to you guys where we're gonna do kind of like a five hundred to six hundred dollar AP you
System so it's going to be optimized for using open CL to accelerate certain workloads such as Adobe Photoshop
Some of the filters you can apply are open CL accelerated
It'll also be focused on the upgrade ability of an APU so you can have entry-level gaming today
Then you can pop a hundred and fifty hundred dollar graphics card in it and you can have a truly
Excellent gaming experience that's as good or better than what you can get with a game console for really that not that much more expensive
Especially when you consider the additional functionality
So I am an advocate of APU
I'm an advocate of graphics cards that are about a hundred dollars and up but that low-end graphics card market whether it's AMD or Nvidia
We're not meaning to pick on AMD with the r7 240. They just they came up. Yeah, their number was up
So, I mean there's other AMD solutions that we like so I would say yeah, and like you just said something like a 630
Probably equally stupid. Yeah. Yeah, so the thing is
upgrade your entire system if you have $80 to spend to grab a cheap APU and a motherboard and
That's nuts and sell your old stuff get a couple bucks there
Maybe you can get 20 bucks for it
If it's really old that gives you an extra little bit to maybe grab
You know a little bit of RAM or you can get 4 gig RAM kits
I think for like 25 bucks these days. I was looking at at them online the other day
Oh, okay. I was gonna say with the RAM shortage. Oh, yeah. Yeah
So, I mean, yeah upgrade your system get reasonable performance and then upgrade a little bit again later
Alright, so without further ado, let's invite our special guest Wendell from tech syndicate by popular demand
Why hello there, sir. You might not be able to hear me yet
But you might be able to hear me now because he was just doing the things
Hopefully he's there
Yes
You left us in suspense there. We've redone the audio setup
Which means that we really just don't know what's gonna work and what's not. Hey, man. How are you?
Yeah, I've had better days thank you for asking
Yeah
So, uh, oh, oh what whoa people are saying they can't hear Wendell. Okay. Okay. Give us just a moment here. We got a
hmm
Hold on it's on this one, isn't it? I have no idea. Yeah
Okay, Wendell give us a moment we might have a bit of a TeamSpeak configuration thing going on here. Oh
It's like, you know the NSA who of course is probably a big fan of you
Just doesn't doesn't want this show to happen. So they like, you know
Hacked our stream PC here. Oh my god something
Duh, conspiracy theories abound here. So they they don't want this stream to happen. So they came into our house
With uh, you know, oh actually Wendell, can you talk for a minute? Let's see if they can hear, you know
Out to spot feel is your taxonomic nomenclature
Okay
All right. Welcome to the show man
Now we've only met in person once before but I think we had a fair bit of fun going to that restaurant that Logan couldn't
eat anything at and
That was kind of fun
So why don't you just take a brief moment and introduce yourself to those few of our viewers who don't already know who you are
I'm hey guys, I'm Wendell
I'm on loan from tech syndicate and I sort of take care of the forum a little bit over there and some of the technical
things and I
Do a little bit of everything so I sort of I'm sort of the nerd that note nerds out with Logan, I guess
All right. So speaking of nerding out, why don't we just go ahead and jump right into our first guest topic here?
which is a little bit out of order, but
This this was a post on Intel's Facebook. Not that long ago. I'm just gonna go ahead and show all the nice folks watching
so Intel says
Well speaking of nerding out, why don't we just go ahead and jump right into our first guest topic here
Which is a little bit out of order, but this was a post on Intel's Facebook
Recipes so they've got crap on here. That's like recipe match. It's like pointing at stuff and giving you a little recipe
I mean everything is very hard to get through I have
Having so much variety in the food that we can choose to eat that we need a computer to tell us
What to eat and when and how but tell me about this concept and how Intel might not have been the first one to think
of this oh
Well, I think what you're talking about is in college. I built something similar
but it was uh
It was a little different
Okay, so the Intel thing is they've got the fridge and you know, the fridge knows what's inside it and blah blah blah
I didn't really do that
Well, why don't you tell us what you what you did have running because it sounded pretty cool when you were talking me about it
I've got um, so what I did was, you know, it's it's very much foul bachelor frog if you can imagine foul bachelor frog
So a lot of frozen dinners were sort of you know in my future
but I had a barcode scanner hooked up to a microwave oven and
So I could take something out of the freezer and scan it with the barcode scanner and put it in the oven
But you know a frozen dinner in a microwave oven that never comes out
Well, so I got one of the fancy ovens with the turntable and so it's like, you know
Running high for five minutes and then sleep for two minutes and then spin it the other way for a minute and a half
They got kind of fancy with the programs for the programmable microwave. So that was kind of fun. But you know fresh vegetables
There's no barcode. So it didn't work
So basically what you had what you had managed to build was something that would have terrible implications
For the health of anyone that that that used it because no one would ever eat vegetables anymore
only things with barcodes
Yeah, you would have to you would have to prepare your meals ahead of time
I guess for like the way that that but it was, you know a minimum of effort
I mean, how cool is that? You can just pop open the fridge scan it put it in a thing and then when it beeps
It's done
it's actually pretty freaking cool and like
Yeah, it would be pretty funny. If you got like a homemade barcode creator thing
Mm-hmm, just like individually barcoded all of your different vegetables
Well, I even actually like I like I thought of that because one of the things that I wanted to do as an inventory system here
I talked to you about this very briefly because we get a lot of like random
Graphics cards and stuff arriving some of it has to go back. Some of it doesn't have to go back
It's hard to keep track of what anything is or how much it's worth or what we're supposed to do with it
So I was like, okay
well
We should just have like a tablet with a barcode scanner like at the door and then when stuff arrives we could just scan it
Inventory put in an approximate value from the invoice and then at least we can we can track things but
This Intel thing looks much more sophisticated and I think there's a few there's a few different ways that this could improve our lives
so number one that comes to mind immediately, of course is the recipe match number two is
Replenishment so with Amazon rolling out things like grocery delivery
You could just basically have you know, it could be like Google now
Not only tracks when you need to go to work and how to get there and how long it's gonna take but tracks what?
You might be in the mood to eat based on your you know circadian rhythms or whatever the season and you know
Hey, it's October. Would you like some pumpkin pie? And
You know, it'll just order from Amazon what you might like to eat
You can obviously manually override it if you want and then it just shows up you put it in your fridge
Your fridge tells you what to cook. I mean are we gonna get to the point where we don't even have to think anymore
It would probably work pretty well from a nutrition and diet management standpoint because I knew somebody that lived in Seattle when they had
the home grocery delivery service and that was amazing like that was like I stayed with them for a month or so while I was
out there and
It was the most incredible thing ever
I mean you get weekly fresh groceries fresh vegetables all delivered right to your door and it's like wow if you combine that with
You know nutrition management and something else and it's all handled by an application. You don't have to think anymore
Which you know what I mean we when we say that it sounds like kind of a dirty word
You know
You don't have to think anymore like I've criticized
Luke here for not being able to find his way to work after working there for well over six months because
The kid busts there the whole time sometimes because barely ever drew you were driving for a while and you still didn't know how to get
A month. So what is like four times? Whatever. So what do you think like four turns? Okay, so what he would do
He would just kid into Google Maps and then he wouldn't follow it and then he wouldn't think and in this like I kind of
Would tease him I go well, you know traffic roading
It would give me a different every time based on traffic
so old guys like me had to listen to the radio and had to actually know how to get places whereas I had a
Conversation with someone who disagreed with me very strongly that at some point kids aren't even gonna know how to drive or how to get
Anywhere because it'll always be done for them. But nutrition is something where I really don't think there's anything wrong. It's like phone numbers
It's like what is the benefit of storing phone numbers in your head other than 911?
I don't think we really need both your phone guys or something
Yeah, or if your phone dies or something
But even I have like two or three that if I'm ever in trouble, it would be fine
I don't need to know all but nutrition is something that is so essential and is so
Complicated that people and people don't really understand like you'd be able to do things like your smart fridge could detect on Facebook that you said
You're gonna have a baby and all of a sudden it could take papaya out of your regular shipments because pregnant women shouldn't eat papaya
Which is a totally unintuitive thing. How cool is that? I
Like that a lot, I mean the smart applications
I think there's there's a lot to the future in that I knew one of the guys that worked on the
Residential version of the turbo chef and that it's it's been out for many years now probably four or five years
But there's an app that's built into the home turbo chef
This is like a $5,000 home oven
But it can cook things immediately and it makes it really easy to cook things like chicken and duck and lamb and things like that
without having to do a lot of preparation with fresh ingredients and I could see sort of the
Technology there with this oven combined with something like this fridge
I mean, it's it's a really interesting technology and you end up, you know
Sort of having a better life experience because you know, you're doing good home cooking and things like that
But it will improve the quality of life and you know what? I don't mind cooking
I find one of the most crappy things about home cooked meals is
coming up with what you want to eat and then shopping for it and then all of a sudden we've taken the
tediousness tedium
I guess would be the correct word out of that and all you have to do is prepare food
Which really isn't even that time consuming and is so much less expensive and so much better for you
It would just be an automatic improvement for me because I just go to Costco. I live by myself
I just go to Costco and buy like little troughs of chicken breast and then just like
Something like a huge thing of romaine lettuce and I'm like, okay
I'm eating chicken and lettuce chicken and salad for like a week and a half at least you could even mix it up and
Chicken salad. Oh, exactly. That's basically where the end of my creativity is because I'm like
I'm gonna save money and that's the only thing that I really end it. I
Mean the other thing many people don't understand very well and it's not a criticism of them. It's just
It's kind of complicated is how long food is good for?
So when you add the food when you start having
You know
codes or chips inside the packaging or whatever else the case may be that the smart fridge can be aware of you put some
Beef in there and your smart fridge can send you a text message be like yo, you haven't cooked this yet
You've got probably about six hours to pop it in the freezer before that's just not gonna be good for anything anymore
We could be looking at a lot of health benefits from a food spoiling perspective as well, which I think is as cool
You know, I think I'm on the iPad first came out about six months or a year after
Apps Epicurious and I think apps like Epicurious which is like sort of an interactive recipe program
I think those were some of the top sellers in the App Store because people were using him in the kitchen
So it was a sort of totally unexpected serendipity from sort of having ubiquitous easy tablet computing
It's actually one of the first apps I got for my smartphone when I got it was I don't remember who's actually Epicurious
But it was one of the ones that is like, oh I have all of these different things
What can I have for dinner tonight?
Yeah
because it actually helped like I I knew what I could make with that but I would take this app and it would spit out
something that I
Wouldn't have thought of for that
I didn't even know what it was and it was just a different way of making and it was really interesting to discover a few
recipes that way
So let's have some discussion about AMD, which is gonna be you know, an uncommon theme on today's show
Which is of course total BS, so let's talk mantle here
I just want to go through some tweets for the audience real quick here so that they're kind of up to speed
So these are some tweets from James Pryor who I actually I actually know he's he's in charge of APU marketing right now
He seems like a pretty good guy. I've had a couple calls with them
So here are some tweets from Ryan shroud again who will be our guest next week and James Pryor
So Ryan says, you know, this could completely change the landscape for multi-core, which has been a sore spot for gamers game developers
CPU makers who can't scale
Frequency anymore. They need to scale course to keep the actual power consumption and heat output of these chips down and yet
Gaming which really has driven performance in some ways particularly on the consumer desktop
For a long time is it's just not able to leverage this stuff. So so Ryan basically goes, okay
Yeah
This is gonna completely change the game because all of a sudden an FX 8350 is just as fast as the core i7
4770 K that is a head explosion moment because a 4770 K is a lot faster than an FX 8350 in gaming right now
James also says with mental they
Underclocked an FX 8350 to 2 gigahertz
so we're talking about a frequency that is about 60% of what that can actually run at and the game was still
GPU bound on an r9 290 X there was no loss in frame rate
So CPU performance and the funny thing about this is AMD is also sort of a CPU company is
Is moving towards irrelevance. I mean, I guess it's great because AMD is also a GPU company
It's funny how many people talked about how the ATI acquisition was gonna sync AMD and AMD was like no
No, it's our future. Trust us. Well, I'm just glad they lasted long enough to to show us what's going on now
So there's a couple other things a frame with mantle has a lot of unused CPU time. There's not a driver hole at all
That's awesome. And then this is a comment from oxide who's developing a an engine that is going to be
More geared towards RTS where they're saying they can make RTS games GPU bound for the first time in pretty much forever
And they've only had a few months
So they basically haven't had time to optimize it but they figure it's about two man-months worth of development time to get
Mantle into games. So why don't we let Wendell?
Why don't you give us your thoughts on this whole mantle and multi-threaded computing optimization thing that's finally happening
Okay, so I looked at the I looked at the presentation
I haven't had a time to go through it really in depth because
You know at the outset it seems like they're trying to get blood from a turnip because things have really been
Well optimized in these games for a long time. And so it's like architecturally. What are they doing different? I don't understand
Well in the AMD mantle video at 1639, they explain it and it starts to make sense
One of the major things that they do is sort of take out only DirectX isn't part of the equation
But you know is DirectX really that terrible? Well, part of the problem is that DirectX is a little bit monolithic
And you know when you're adding shaders and things like that
It goes through a bottleneck where all the all those things that are happening in parallel have to be synchronized
But with the mantle architecture at 1639 in that video, it's showing that they're
Sort of developing independent cues that can live and exist in different memory space and on different cores on the GPU
And so it becomes much less CPU bound at that point and everything can run in parallel and that sounds really promising
So
Instead of I mean so to so to give the viewer some context in the early days when we were first getting dual core
Processors and we were all really excited about it
It was kind of like oh well now we can run like the in-game AI on one processor
And then we can use the other one just to power the graphics experience
And then what we realized when we started getting three core and four core and six core processors. Is that
Okay, so now we've got like AI here and physics here or on the GPU depending on if you ask AMD or Nvidia about that
And then we've also got the actual gaming experience here
So so the without the ability to parallelize the actual GPU rendering the actual rendering of the scene
We were stuck for a really long time
It looks like mantles just according to AMD's claims going to just flat-out fix that now
They're finally talking numbers, although we'd heard rumors earlier that of around these numbers
But they're talking about 20 to 50 percent performance improvements on cards that are a couple years old
With AMD mental enabled games. How exciting is that from a consumer standpoint? I
Think that it's gonna sort of open up a whole new world
It makes sense with their strategy because you know, the APU has clearly gotten a lot more attention from AMD
you know R&D and stuff like that and
It's really kind of disappointing on the desktop processor side of the world because it's like hey, you know
There's still room to innovate on the desktop side. I mean, let's work on power consumption or something
But when you look at it this way, it's like
Architecturally, you know
they may be onto something here because
This is this means they're gonna be able to do more with less and that's where they're gonna cut their power and that's where they're
Gonna they're gonna get their efficiency
Absolutely. I mean one thing there were rumors circulating for a while about a six core
Yeah, and that's that's exactly that tweet about downclocking the chip to two gigahertz is like, okay how much power consumption
There's an 8350 at two gigahertz half
But I mean, we don't know I don't think anyone ever tried it because it just didn't perform well
Try to run it at such a low frequency and do anything with it
But that's uh that that's absolutely game-changing. I mean to put this in perspective for the viewers again
We're talking 20 to 50 percent performance improvement puts a an r9 270
Which is about a one hundred and seventy nine ninety nine graphics card
So mainstream performance puts that in the same performance weight class as an r9
280 X which is a three hundred plus dollar graphics card and not that long ago was a four hundred five hundred dollar graphics card
Last gen that is that is absolutely game-changing and what can Nvidia do to address this?
Well, you know, this is an open platform. And so Nvidia can sort of adopt the model here
I think you know, I don't have any real I don't have any friends that are like really really inside the game sector
I know some people that develop indie games and they always complain about how terrible DirectX is but how
The problem with OpenGL is that it's not like it's standardized across platforms
But it's not the same across platforms
And so something that might work great in one situation doesn't work at all in another situation
At least you don't have that with DirectX
Mantle is an opportunity for AMD to bring that to not just the Windows platform
But probably also Mac and Linux and I'm really hoping that the Linux thing takes off
Me too. I mean, I don't know if you saw this, but did you see Microsoft sort of hey
We're we're sorry about the whole PC gaming thing and how we completely crapped the bed on that
We're gonna we're gonna we're gonna support it better
We're gonna start by eliminating games for Windows Live, which I think was met by
Uproarious, you know hoorays and all of that kind of stuff, but is it just too little too late
I mean they had an opportunity
Really for the last five years to get their crap together
You know what give the PC your halo game. Come on you guys
Is it too late?
Yeah, I mean, I think the biggest problem with DirectX is the way that the shaders are handled
That's apparently one of the big bottlenecks and that one of the things about the sort of cues and implementation
I guess is what they call it in the video is that it lets those things sort of live on their own
So right now if you think of it the GPU you're giving a whole bunch of tasks to the GPU that are well suited for
The GPU and you have you know
like soldier AI and things like that running on the CPU and then at the middle of this mess is DirectX and DirectX is
Trying to synchronize all those things and you know with mantle it's like hey
We can do this this way and this that way and you can yeah
It's it's it makes a lot of sense and it puts stuff in the hands of the developers
But it makes sense that the hardware people are providing it
And so if Microsoft plays nice and provides a low enough level hardware interface that they don't have to like hack the windows kernel
That's what Microsoft needs to do because their expertise is not here
They need to step aside and let the experts do what they need to do and give them what they need at an operating system
Level and that's the best thing they could do for this and at the same time
I actually don't necessarily think it's too little too late because of what Wendell just said and
Because even though Linux is being much more openly adopted now, it's still that scary word
I love Linux but a lot of people are just scared of it don't want to try it in the second
They sit down in front of on even though it's not sitting in command console at first or terminal
Yeah, I don't really don't see this going to desktop Linux right away
I think it'll be on the steam box or something like that and then it'll sort of
Leak from the steam box onto Linux desktop. I don't think it'll be there overnight, but that's exactly it
I don't think it'll be overnight either. But this is what I mean. This is what I see happening
What I see happening is this opening the door now
Okay, to be clear when mantle was first talked about this is again. This is more for the viewers benefit
It wasn't very clear. What what exactly it was AMD gave some details
But they were I think they were waiting for this event to really talk about it
And so there was a there were a lot of rumors. It was open to Nvidia. It wasn't open to Nvidia
It was running on the PlayStation 4 it was running on Xbox
Oh, no, it was it's not running on those and it really wasn't clear
It'll work on Linux or you know, I think that one's been pretty clear from the start
But what we're finding out now and this was again revealed at the event where Johan Anderson who is lice diet and lices
Dices lead like dices lead technical
Future whatever something he has a complicated title
Basically he's leading future development for the frostbite engine series where he basically said, okay
Yeah
It's not the same
But the mantle code for battlefield 4 looks a lot closer to the ps4 code than it looks to the DirectX code
so if a game developer
I mean one of the things we've talked about on the show before is that guys like indie game devs if they were gonna pick
one
Then they might pick DirectX
But all of a sudden that could change if my lot of indie game devs are developing for console first, right?
So if they could do it relatively easily
This could be a total game changer and then they could add support for Linux
They could add support for Windows and all of a sudden I mean indie guys love Linux
Yeah, well, they love adopting it because then you get that huge horde of people that will support you
Yes, and they're very outspoken and we'll talk about it a lot in your game gets a lot of traction
So another thing that I noticed though was the I don't remember their name, but those guys making the engine
Oxide oxide we're saying that it takes about they said it takes almost not a lot of work two months of man hours
Yeah, so if you have even two devs you could do it in a month and you can do it
Like how like how dice is doing it?
I have no problem with that release the game and then follow up with mantle support sure
Especially for a game that's a multiplayer oriented game where we're not talking a single-player campaign that you're gonna play through in a week
And then you're gonna put the game on the shelf. I mean not I mean do people still buy physical games
I mean put it away in your steam library
As long as it's not something like that then yeah, I have no problem with that
As long as mantle is well supported not only cross-platform, but also
Cross
Device and that's where you know Nvidia is gonna be at a disadvantage implementing this and I hope that that doesn't impede its adoption
But at the same time, you know
You're gonna look at Microsoft Microsoft does have a console and I do have a desktop and and you know
If you think back to the Xbox one, that was just a PC
It seems like they could have learned these lessons like ten years ago and incorporated it into the Windows OS and one wonders why they didn't
I mean this is
This is this is a very this is a very confusing thing to me and I mean my whole my outburst about halo
Is is sort of a microcosm of that?
I think where Microsoft had this opportunity to be everything to everyone for gaming
They really did. I mean when PCs got more powerful
Why didn't Microsoft just give us an Xbox first-gen emulator and let us buy Xbox games and run them on our PCs?
Really guys why not?
You could have done it. I
Thought that's where they were headed with the Xbox 360 and then all of a sudden they put you know power PC
They put a Mac processor in the Xbox 360. Isn't that right? Isn't it? Isn't it a power PC? Yeah, it's an IBM power PC
I think it's like a three-core some weird thing
I and I saw that and I went what you guys were so close to just being
Dominant here who could have stopped you at that point and then and then if they owned the desktop and they owned the notebook
and they owned the game console then
how much more compelling is something like their mobile platform if all of a sudden I can get this back library and
The the wind tell Alliance can continue when Intel can get into mobile because all of a sudden they're the ones powering the platform
That gamers and enthusiasts want to use how close were they to having that happen?
How myopic was their view that allowed this to occur what happened here?
They are back to PC I guess now again with the x86 architecture one wonders what that has like what they've got up their sleeve
For X the DirectX infrastructure or what the developer kits look like on on Xbox one
Yeah, yeah, I mean there it's not like they're down for the count. It's not like they're out of money
I think I saw something not that long ago that says they're their revenue from Android alone is something like 2 billion a year
So so they got plenty of money to fix this
All right, so speaking of cross-platform
This is something that for me personally is really exciting and that is streaming from larger devices
To smaller devices in the home now Nvidia shield is something that was met with I think a very
Mixed reaction and I think that's being very generous people for the most part said oh, it's too expensive and it's stupid
Why would I even want to play my games on this handheld thing when I could be sitting at my PC?
And I think the problem is that Nvidia is trying to approach the the the traditional PC gamer with this and I think they haven't
Had much luck
communicating to console gamers because there's for whatever reason that weird divide between glorious PC gaming master race and the
Console peasants as the PC guys like to refer to them
you know we can all blame zero punctuation for this but
The PlayStation 4 is adding a feature that shield was first to market with
Nvidia calls it game stream where you can stream from your ps4 to a PS Vita and play ps4 games on the Vita with of
Course PlayStation 4 graphical fidelity. What are your thoughts on this? We actually saw it demo. There was a video that came out
I think it was today or yesterday that was showing that the latency is actually very low
It's really interesting that this sort of technology
I mean you look at the latency of the transport mechanism
You know wired versus wireless and I think with the with the ps4 didn't I mentioned that the 1080p streams have to be wired?
Oh, you mean with the shield?
Yeah, yeah
Yes
Shield has to use a wired
USB to to gigabit Ethernet adapter so you can tell they need more than a hundred megabit
sustained but less than a full gigabit because obviously it's going over USB to
In order to achieve 1080p streaming
Okay, so the way to think about this and they said this is just sort of back of the envelope
There's some different approaches here
If you're gonna stream you can do it progressive or you can do it
Block based if you're doing sort of a progressive stream as soon as the data comes in you send it out again
Do you do that? You can't really do any compression. You can't compress. That means you're gonna have a lot of data
You're gonna need a really high-speed connection
That's not good news for a wireless connection because wireless connections can't handle as much data
It's a wired connection if you're gonna send it in chunks, it becomes how fast you can encode each chunk of data
So like let's let's say hypothetically you've got something running at 10 frames per second
Well, why 10 frames per second because it makes the math easy
so 10 frames per second is
About a hundred milliseconds per frame and if your chunk size is one frame it gets a frame in it has to convert it
That takes a hundred milliseconds
You've added a hundred milliseconds of latency
So even if you have something that runs at 60 frames per second
You're adding 1 60th of second a second of latency to encode that and and send it down the wire
Even if it can run at 60 frames a second
So you need something absurdly fast if you're gonna compress it and do something with it
They can you know
If you only want to add one millisecond of latency it has to run at a thousand frames per second
It has to be able to process a frame in a millisecond, right?
Now to be clear for the viewers Wendell is not talking about
FPS like frames per second in terms of GPU processing he's talking about it in terms of encoding performance
So that is taking the larger image and compressing it and packing it into something that is much less data intensive
So the way that we measure that is also in frames per second. So just just so that's clear for everyone
So sorry Wendell keep going. No yet. No, that's that's exactly right because
You get into a situation where you just physically the thing physically can't keep up and you know people, you know
Pro gamers say that they can feel you know, five ten milliseconds
I don't think any human being can really feel the difference much less than about 20 or 25 milliseconds
But 20 or 25 milliseconds, I mean you can get a lot of those time slots in a one-second period
And so it sounds like that the shield and the ps4 maybe are using different kinds of technology
And so I think it's going to yield a different consumer experience very interesting
I mean we know that the reason Nvidia is only allowing game stream on Kepler GPUs with their hardware based encoder is that they have
Dedicated hardware on the graphics card that is handling this in order to keep the latencies low enough. So whatever Sony has done
Probably isn't that so I think you're right
It's very fair to say that they're using a completely different implementation one other thing one other real problem
I have with Sony's implementation regardless of how they're doing the encoding is that the ps4 only uses
2.4 gigahertz that is single band wireless N
Which means that as much as this demo might work on you know in a keynote or the demo might work in a reviewers
Office where there's one other Wi-Fi network
Wait till someone turns a microwave on wait till someone turns a microwave on wait till someone yeah
Exactly you bring your you bring your Vita into the kitchen to like
You know microwave your pizza pop and you want to play a game while you wait
Yeah
good luck with that and then wait till someone in an apartment buys a ps4 and a Vita and
There's a hundred wireless hotspots within range. This is just plain old not gonna work
Yeah, it's the wireless situation is gonna be really bad
Even if you even if everything is ideal if you have two devices going at the same time all of unless you're wireless
Access point is really high-end commercial access point that has multiple radios
Almost all the the access points out there have trouble sending and receiving multiple streams
That's why I like the you know triple antenna receiver blah blah blah was sort of in vogue a couple of years ago
And it's still around with like the dual band 2.4 and 5 gigahertz that kind of thing mitigates the problem
But the 2.4 only even if you get two devices
They're gonna be competing with one another and it's like the hardware
Implementations of dealing with that competition is only just dirty dirty hacks and it doesn't really work and for something like streaming
It's it's you can't even watch Netflix
Yep. No, you're you're absolutely absolutely right. I mean Nvidia just plain old says nope
You don't have you don't have a 5 gigahertz wireless connection. So we're just not even did you press it and it just says nope
They just say look you need this router deal with it
Whereas Sony I think by allowing quote-unquote better compatibility is actually going to be hurting the end-user experience
Yeah, they would have to have a comfort like a like a hardware h2 64 encoder or something in hardware that can run at like
150 frames per second just to make that come out and that's probably not an inexpensive piece of hardware
Yeah, so I mean, you know some thought some thoughts there now, okay
What we also did just for just for fun is we did a bit of a cost showdown here
So maybe I'll let you talk about this loop because you worked on it. Okay, so we compared a few things
So a PS Vita I looked I looked on new eggs. So we had more rounded out numbers
So this assumes you don't own a Vita because as far as I've never actually seen one in someone's hands. So
there
PS Vita is about 200 bucks and a shield is about 300 bucks on their own
So if you got that but then you need the other hardware to run them
So I looked into it and said okay a ps4 is about $3.99
So with the PS Vita it's about
$5.99 as a combo because I looked around and didn't see any combos for that and we may see bundles
We may see bundles. So bundles will change the landscape somewhat this so, okay, go ahead
And then shield is about $2.99 as we know but if you buy it with a graphics card
So let's say a 770 you can get a GTX 770 a shield
Batman Arkham Origins
Splinter Cell Blacklist and Assassin's Creed 4 Black Flag
So you're getting three games all for $5.49
and if you wanted to buy so that's that's $5.99 for a ps4 and a Vita or
$5.49 for a 770 a shield three games and if you wanted those three games with the PlayStation, it would be around $750
So that's pretty compelling looking expensive PC gaming is starting to look like it makes a whole lot of sense and
If we see Nvidia support something like mantle
I mean Nvidia's future even more than we saw already maybe in solutions and their mobile processors
Even more than we already knew because if they go and support mantle with this
We could be looking at a situation where you can take a crap CPU your old machine
You can buy a graphics card. You can get a shield or some other mobile platform from Nvidia that supports this technology and
Have a great gaming experience
That's really competitive with the price and performance of a console and just makes well actually makes consoles performance. Just look stupid
Can I get a shout out to the PC master race I
Know right. Well, just the thing of it is I've been using shield pretty extensively lately. I don't find much time to game
I don't find much time when I'm sitting at my computer
I'm usually uploading videos or something or like
Researching topics for the land show it's hard for me to be at my computer and just play a game
Whereas I got an Nvidia shield and I've actually almost finished Batman Arkham City in the last couple weeks
I'm actually fine because I can I can play with it in bed. It works amazingly. Well, you need a beast router
You really do even my EA 4200 just choked on it
I needed to get an Asus RTN 66u which is like super two thumbs up for that router
But it is an amazing experience and people need to need to get it
Like we had a new camera guy that just started he's an intern and he was he was filming
I was talking about these Bluetooth Moga power controllers that
Give your your your battery life a bit of a boost on your phone and they clip to your phone so you can play Android
Games and it's like $80 for the high-end one and I and I showed him a shield. He's like, what's that thing?
I'm like, oh well
It's like got a genuinely console grade controller
It plays your Android games and you can stream games from your computer and play them on here and he's like, whoa
Really?
Nvidia is just so terrible at marketing to mainstream. They just have no idea that this exists. I
Think that um
When the Steam Box takes off
You're gonna see a lot more peripherals like that and I think that it's gonna get a lot more
It's gonna get a lot more visibility
But the the problem I guess that probably steam has right now is that you've got Nvidia that has a lot of these really cool
Innovative things but they're kind of expensive which is not good for an appliance from an appliance standpoint
Then you have AMD who's sort of bringing the rain with very inexpensive hardware on both the CPU and GPU side
They can really bring it home, which is gonna be much better suited for a console like PC appliance
Yep, that's very very true
So, you know whether I mean, okay
So Nvidia's benefit so if we're gonna go pros and cons list and be is gonna have game stream and then AMD by proxy
So through steam OS is gonna have the console mode of game stream
Which shield also supports if you get a weird adapter and whatever whatever whatever
So it's gonna be basically do I want to pay more to have the mobile experience on top of the couch experience?
Or do I want the value optimized solution that spanks the consoles in terms of performance and you know in terms of having
All these indie games and this huge game library, but doesn't support mobile at the same time
Someone could make an open platform style of a shield. So a really really similar product
That's still running Android, but then isn't tied down to a GPU
But then Nvidia's strength a lot of the time is in their proprietary. Yeah for better or for worse
It's the fact that I mean we were joking about this earlier as much as this stream is gonna be once Wendell leaves
We have a bunch more AMD stuff where we're gonna be like rah rah rah AMD
Stuff like raptor is not competitive with stuff like g-force experience stuff like AMD's implementation of stereoscopic 3d
And we can talk all day about whether stereoscopic 3d matters or not
And I think we're gonna all come to the same conclusion that no one cares
But it wasn't competitive with 3d vision Nvidia is great at delivering a great experience within their closed
ecosystem but then open platforms can sometimes have that shining jewel in the dust there can usually
Not usually there can sometimes be the open platform that is better than proprietary platform
Yeah, and if you make something like that, but it is possible that some big group will step behind it
Like maybe splash top they could maybe be the back end
So there's a company behind it that could push it forward and it could still make it some of the AMD stuff
That's open platform is still very strong. You know, it's interesting. You mentioned splash top because I
The I have an iPad and on the iPad I have splash top and I've experimented with it and on newer iPads
It is actually
Disturbingly fast, but on when I'm on an access point, it's only 2.4 gigahertz
It is a completely different experience than when it's on 5 gigahertz. Yeah
I think we can go ahead people would have to have the right hardware
Implementations all around to make it work and a splash top made some like very optimized
Application sources for running games it could maybe be better and they could have it like in gaming mode or something
So it works that way better something in the future
But like for an open platform to work like that there would be need to be some big packer
I mean, I think the networking guys have to be licking their chops right now
Yeah, because all this technology is gonna rely on people to finally go and upgrade their wireless G routers
Because up till now web browsing why?
You know, um, there is a wireless
There is a piece of wireless technology that I have I have actually been impressed with and it's it's mundane
But and I think you'll be surprised but it's the Dell wireless dock for their latitudes
It's like some sort of high frequency. It's like eight gigahertz or something special and I'm used to you know
A good docking solution, but it's got a range of like six feet
It literally if it's more than six feet away from the dock, it doesn't work, but it can deliver
You know the on the docking station
I've got three
You know 1920 by 1200
Monitor outputs and the USB 3 and all these really high-speed peripherals and it sort of freaks me out that I don't have to plug the
Laptop into anything and that's a nice technology. That's pretty awesome. Actually. I have it. The range is terrible
But the range is terrible. You know what Samsung had something similar with their central station
I don't think they were using a high frequency. They were using a proprietary USB 3 of some sort
I I'm I did a video about it a long time ago
I can't remember how it worked because it was prohibitively expensive
but I it was a very very similar concept where the idea was that you just brought your PC within range and then it had
a dongle that you had to plug into the PC it was USB based because
Whereas Dell I guess can just build this functionality into their laptops
But when you brought it in range you were able are able to wirelessly transmit
You know all the signaling for your peripherals and an Ethernet and display
To from the laptop to the display where it would act as as a hub that you could plug everything into so
This kind of stuff is very very much the future. I'm excited about wireless
I've hated wireless for a long time, but wireless AC even actually addresses a lot of my issues with it
Have you have you played around with AC much?
Yeah at home. I've got the I've got a Cisco commercial grade
Wireless AC access point question because yeah, I don't I don't want to fool around
What are one of those run you
There well if you give them retail they're about a thousand bucks
But if you know a guy you can get them for about 300. All right
You've actually piqued my interest
Yeah, well it turns out if you want to paint the neighborhood with the signal that's what you need
Alrighty then
Fascinating. Okay. Well, you know what?
I think that was pretty much it for the topics that we had lined up
I I would love for guys let let Logan give give Logan a big. Thank you
So at I think it's at tech syndicate on Twitter for for allowing us to have some of Wendell's time
You know, I know that that you guys are an awesome tag team over there and we've had Logan on the show before
It's been a total pleasure to have you you've been requested so
Much so I want to you know
Thank you your team
Collectively both Logan and you for being generous enough to lend us some of your time and some of your expertise
This has been absolutely fantastic. Oh, no problem anytime anytime
It's it's all good. I'll let him know that I'm being returned in slightly used condition, but it's okay
We haven't abused you too much here. Have we?
No, no, it's all good. Twitch chat. Tell Wendell he's great. Okay, you know, we don't want to beat him up over here
Yeah, everyone says come back come back. We can't live without you. Yeah, they love you. So thank you very much, man
Remember guys, you can watch Wendell over on the text syndicate YouTube channel
Which is youtube.com slash raise the world with that O being a zero which I've teased him about endlessly
I was like, dude, what were you thinking? But now it's too late. So there you go. He's stuck with it
So I'll talk to you soon man. Take care. Thanks. All right. Take care
All right, so
Let's move all our sponsor break that done. Ah, I remembered for a change. Oh, what do I do?
Just close it close it got it. All right sponsor breaks time
So guys our sponsor for this show is
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It apparently is a little bit complicated to use offer code Linus. So
Guys in the video description. I will post a link to the forum thread where I will post instructions
For how to take advantage of it. I've actually been using hotspot shield. I had to use it to order Google Glass
in fact
No, no, don't worry it's shipped. Okay. Yeah
Yeah, no, don't worry it's a done deal so because Google Glass Explorer Edition is only available to US residents
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Generously, let me use his credit card. Oh
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Cuz I had to have a u.s. Based credit card then another okay get this get this
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Okay, I had to get it shipped there and then I'm gonna go pick it up next week
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Spoofing that I was based out of the US by using a u.s. Based hotspot shield address
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Where you're from and so there's all kinds of crazy stuff you can do with VPNs or you can just use it to get u.s
Netflix which is I think what a lot of people do so guys one more time
Thanks to hotspot shield for providing our VPN solution here as well as for sponsoring the show and giving us
20% off to offer to you guys when you're using offer code Linus and not that we necessarily
Recommend cheating the system to get u.s. Netflix either
We're just yeah serving that many of you many of you do that. I thought post about on the form
Oh, yeah, so Squarespace isn't a sponsor today, but I do actually want to point out something so guys last week
We announced that Squarespace was doing a design your own win your own website thing
So all you got to do is sign up for the trial at sparesquarespace.com and then submit it to me with hashtag
Oh crap. What was the hashtag?
Okay, go back to last week's win show and check out the hashtag if you tweet it with that hashtag
Then you will have a chance. I'm gonna announce sometime this week the winner so you will win your website for a year
They handle all the hosting and all that. So I just wanted to remind you guys about that
So one thing before you start going when I was reading off the games whenever I read
SCI Starcraft my brain stops. I know I know will not go past thinking it when I typed it
I was thinking it when I typed it. I was like, I'm gonna think of Stark and it's SCB. So it's like Starcraft reward. Yeah
Then there's be a oh and I'm like black something. Yeah
No, okay. So yeah
I knew what they were too, but I was just reading those acronyms and my head just completely froze
Yeah SC to also supreme commander to yeah, which I never got because I was always thinking Starcraft. Yeah, man
Okay. Oh, yeah. So anyway, we're gonna have Google Glass. So that's the thing
My new gen Kindle paperweight arrived today
Remember how long ago I ordered that stupid thing a month and I was like, yeah, I want to do an unboxing
Well, it's still relevant
Yeah, it was like six weeks
Thanks for that Amazon they shipped they shipped the cover for it cover you back when I work
I don't even know where it is anymore. I haven't seen it a long time me neither. So under a pile of things ridiculous
Anyway, I love Amazon a lot but some things I don't love
So let's just move on to our next topic here, which is I yes more AMD news
Of course AMD has updated the never settle forever program super confusing in a super
Confusing way because back when never settle came out
It was like look this is great buy all the graphics cards get all the games you love it
And we did we did boy. Did we ever? Oh, definitely
Okay, so now it is about the most confusing chart that I've ever seen in my life
Which you know, I've seen a lot of confusing charts in my life. Wait before we keep going
We should do a Twitter blitz after this or something. Yeah. Okay, so guys Twitter blitz something
We didn't end up having time because Wendell was an amazing guest and we wanted to talk to him about all the things so we
Didn't end up getting to do a Twitter blitz with him. But let's just do like random Q&A hit us. All right
So first of all, there's this graphic which is like, okay what?
so r9
270 and up to r9 290 X has battlefield 4 with a checkbox
Maybe maybe which is confusing because AMD is providing codes to retailers
Maybe maybe depending on the quality to qualifying retailers and the retailers will at their discretion
Bundle this game with their cards. Maybe maybe while supplies last maybe maybe
So basically unless you have verified that the retail you're buying from is providing that game with that card
Nothing is guaranteed. Okay, then our 7 to 60 X
So the only one out of the new generation cards to be added to never settle forever
Officially even though some retailers have been doing never settle forever on new gen cards such as NCIX
Which is why I got confused and was saying that it was on it because NCIX was shipping them
Anyway, so that has been added to the silver never settle forever, which means you get two games
Okay, so hold on a second. It's not over yet folks. So I don't even know what this is. I'm using this stupid Metro
Internet Explorer, so I don't even I don't know what I'm doing right now. So let's go ahead and open this again. This is I
Yeah, so chrome like no really annoying
Yeah, I'm
Not happy. Okay, so there okay, so there's that so then never settle forever has also been altered
Okay, so let's scroll down and let's open up this graph
So this is from video cards calm just so that we make sure we're crediting the source because I didn't make these graphs mind
You I don't think they necessarily made all of them either
All right, so they have added thief to never settle forever, but only in the silver and gold tiers. I
mean talk about tearful not the
200 here not that or whatever not the bronze tier so you can pick in the bronze tier
One game out of the list of qualifying games, which is not BF so BF for only on r9 200 series
Not available never settle forever doesn't include Tomb Raider doesn't include thief
Okay, but you can pick one of any of these then in the silver tier you can pick two of any of these but not
Tomb Raider, okay, not Tomb Raider not BF for and then the gold tier you can pick three of any of them except not BF
for so
AMD we love you. Thank you for giving us all the games
By your naming conventions and your little weird naming schemes and category things is not really working out
They asked me to settle
They asked me to settle for one game or two
You know
What got me to is we were talking about like the r9 r7 thing a bunch and how like certain ones should probably be moved
Yeah, why is an r7 260 accent the same categories in r7 240?
exactly
What the hell I mean we love you AMD the graphics cards are great
We just wish you'd call them something else and the other thing too is the whole never settle and we're better at game bundles thing
Feels a little bit hollow when Nvidia is doing their holiday promotion
Which is used as all hell. Yeah
Assassin's Creed black flag
Splinter cell black list black light black list
Blacklist and then Batman Arkham origins on the higher tier card. So you're getting two to three games
So for 290 X versus 780, hold on a minute
You might get battlefield 4 or you will get these three games that are also compelling and you will get $100 off of
Of a shield which is also a compelling experience. So it's like man now we're said but then mental
20 to 50 percent more performance, but maybe mantles on Nvidia, but then power consumption and noise
But then maybe Nvidia is good. And then what if you want g-sync?
It's a great time to buy a graphics card because it's hard to make a wrong decision
They're just all gonna be awesome. Yeah, pretty much
All right. So this is this is something that's actually gonna be a bit of a quick topic here. But speaking of Microsoft
We actually talked about their stupid publicity stunt where they put a giant Xbox one in a parking lot in Vancouver
Here's another one. Oh my god you piece of garbage. Okay, so
They're putting an Xbox one in New Zealand
So so whoever whoever gets this Xbox one the lucky winner will get to be I'm just gonna turn the volume off because I have
No idea how loud it is. I'm sorry in advance
How is this not working?
Because I want sharks with freaking laser beams attached to their heads how complicated is this
So the first person in the world to get an Xbox one will be someone in New Zealand who wins this one that they're actually
Putting into a shark tank, but I have something like 20 sharks in it. So it's like not a trivial number of sharks
I
Think that's really all there's to say about it. Yeah
Another than all the press who have them. Yeah, even well, yeah. Yeah, even in the video. They're like, oh well
We don't know who's gonna go get it
I'm assuming it's gonna be the same divers that went down to put it in but it was just kind of funny
Yeah, I mean that's it'd be you know
What a liability problem that would be if someone actually like went in there and tried to get it and died
It'd be pretty epic. And if there was anywhere where that would happen, it would be down under
No, I mean, I think I think Australians and New Zealanders would be the first to admit
That I know but just last week attacking the sheep and then now calling them crazy. Well, I love those guys
Okay, think about it this way you guys the time slot that we have for the WAN show have we not demonstrated we love you
I think Australia and New Zealand actually have the best time slot for the land show. Yeah our own times on signs on
Our own time zone gets the bearable because it's like so it's at 4 30 when everyone's still at work. Yeah
All right. It's like Timmy Timmy tech TV was like hey Linus. I can never watch your show anymore
It's like I thought we were friends bad
Just like sorry, dude. All right. So this last topic before the Twitter blitz. What is it doing?
Oh, no, look at what I'm doing. I like touch here and I try to scroll just like change
Are you are you swiping left me if it goes?
No, no. No, I thought that might have been a thing unbelievable
Okay, so Samsung and Intel find 36 more companies to back ties elected all of this by swiping left and forward
Well, that's ridiculous left and right there. Oh, I hate it
All right, so Samsung and Intel find 36 more companies to back ties in their Android competitor
So it's an open based Linux based open based open source Linux
I'm you know what I should just leave open source Linux based operating system. It's got some interesting backers
So the new companies backing it include eBay
konami
McAfee Panasonic and the weather channel
So if I've ever seen a ragtag group of companies to band together and support something that yeah
Which is like Intel again because McAfee is owned by Intel
Okay
So the cool some of the cool things about it, it'll allow developers to work in CSS HTML 5 and JavaScript, which is interesting
But it's not a security issue kind of weird. Yeah. Yeah, it's like kind of random and seems to open up a lot
I'll open up more doors than it closes so to speak
Performance has been shown off before and if I had my other laptop, I would play this YouTube video for you, but
They like look at a gallery which uses all the most useless possible things like putting pictures on a cube and then they call someone
Okay. Yes, and I know it's like how do you show it off? But like dude, it's on crappy hardware though
So so Samsung showed it off on something like a galaxy s2 and they were doing some cool
I mean the cool thing about it was that it was an HTML 5 base app as opposed to being I think they both were
I think even the calling was so so that's really neat
Is this going to topple the mighty Google Empire no
One thing that I noticed was with the companies that backed it it's already cut you off there
No, I wasn't talking anymore. I just said no. Yeah, I was done one thing that knows about the companies that are backing it
Are they're all companies that?
Google is basically trying to just circumvent and being like nope
This is our own thing like the Weather Channel Google's kind of doing their own thing. Yeah, McAfee
They're kind of starting to bundle their own thing
Like it's it's all it's all stuff that their Google is trying to get rid of so they're all like
Oh, maybe we should back this thing over here. It is kind of like but it isn't going to work
I'm a lot more interested in something like Ubuntu phone
I actually you know what?
I actually just cleared this with with Brandon and I'm gonna borrow his galaxy Nexus because that happens to be one of the two phones
No, no, I'm gonna I'm gonna this last one. Yeah his old. Yeah, it's galaxy Nexus
So I'm gonna finish my Nexus 5 review and then as long as nothing else arrives, I'm gonna man guys
Xperia z1 and Nexus 5 are really making me miss my HTC one. I can't wait to get it back
I'm actually gonna throw cyanogen mod on it
Hopefully as long as I can get everything sufficiently unlocked because I don't have a Play Store Edition one. Oh
So but I have a I have an early developer one my original one
So that might be compact. I don't know anyway
So I'm going to ask Brandon to let me borrow his galaxy Nexus and I'm gonna try a bunch of fun
I'll do like a 30-day book
I'll give you this is you have to remember that it's gonna be slow and the battery life's not gonna be like good and it's
Not gonna be a bunch useful. I know but I just want to try it. I want to be like, okay
Well, look what if I want to play pac-man?
Can I those kinds of things if I want to check the weather can I so I find that very exciting?
I mean Ubuntu has the the resources and they have the track record of
Delivering free operating systems for better or for worse and getting support and and building and the business that they've been doing and like the
Like mass consumer usability of Linux that Ubuntu has been spearheading for a while
It's been really they claim to be the OS on 10% of new pcs shipping today
That's unbelievable. It's not North America, but but overall overall North America, whatever like I'm just I'm just saying that that's why it's probably so unbelievable
That's extremely exciting that's extremely exciting. Yeah, so let's go ahead and head over to the the Twitter boards
Someone says get moo bot or any bot in chat. We had moo bot. It was a big problem. It's yeah
It's a really big problem. Yeah about the smart fridge. How about implementing RFID tags on products?
Which will hold data like expired in ingredients. Absolutely. That would be amazing
Huge deal or even like if you okay think about this if you could like grab apples or something and instead of the traditional
Twist tie you can bring your own thing of RFID twist ties
You tie it up and they have a little programmer there or you use your phone or something and you just go buying apples today
Boop. Yeah, and like
Anything that's like that you could do with your phone or your own little twist tie or whatever you just brought up and then like
Milk, it could just be programmed into the barcode on the milk
like it's and then and then with
Couple with the Amazon thing the day your milk expires some dude could show up with milk and be like, yep, throw your old
That'd be amazing
Zodiac soul mates as a Seuss just he teased the March 760
Yeah, could it be something about under these Kepler licensed other manufacturers? No, no, I don't think so
I think it's just one of those things where these dual GPU cards don't sell particularly. Well, the engineering that goes into them is
Unbelievable the cost of it like Asus loses money on every Mars card 100% Trust me
They do wouldn't be surprised at all
They do I mean the amount of money that it took to even build the stupid heatsink on aries to
The amount of revisions they did to even tool that thing like that. They lost money is totally money losing proposition
Mar 760, um, is it similar? So that's why no one does it. We actually have one coming cool. Yeah, it's interesting
Have you seen like the concept photos for not not for this or
And it's fake
Blackening too. Oh cool. That's actually pretty cool
But yes, someone someone leaked concept photos for a dual 290 X GPU card
Oh, yeah, and they just like added a fan to a 79 90 and it's like super
Like one case of that that card would have to be like dual rad liquid cool
For fans on it
Okay, just upgraded to a 47 70k from a Pentium for good work Andrew. Nice. Enjoy that
Do you think that smartphones will become the new laptop? Um
If wireless standards like what Wendell's talking about with docking stations become a thing and something like Ubuntu phone
Maybe yeah, because with Ubuntu phone you document turns into a full OS
We can have steam running on it all of a sudden we can game on it and more like a desktop experience
I think the future is very exciting. Yeah, what do you think about famous youtubers like total biscuit disabling YouTube comments?
I think that it's great that they're trying to send a message to Google and YouTube. I think that Google and YouTube
Probably have some idea that it's a problem at this point
One thing that's interesting is unbox therapy somehow has the old comment system on his channel
And he has a Facebook post the only YouTube channel that still has the old comments
It's not how he did it
I suspect you won't even tell me because
He just like luckily didn't get bumped I
Don't even know what it is. But anyway, I think it's important that they're sending a message and that's cool
I think YouTube and Google know and they'll do something and for me personally
I don't see the difference between disabled comments and spam comments that we can just all not look at. I
Hate the new comment system, but the main reason why I hate the new comment system is when you see the top, dude
It's like 300 comments on his post. They can fix it so easily though
There's things that they can do and it can be better
So let's just let's just give them a chance
And I'm not gonna hurt my own search rankings to send a message to Google and YouTube that they are
Like people someone said you should disable it. Let people talk about on the forum. Okay, go talk about on the forum
I would love for you to go talk about
But the reality of it is is that YouTube comments are and I believe always will be lowest common denominator
People who aren't willing to go and talk about it on the forum
You can have a way more intelligent conversation about any of the videos we make on our forum 100%
Okay
If you post period if there's a problem with the video like in a very recent video if you post something like that on the
Forum, like I reply to those all the time. There's a reply under that one saying like oh, this is what's wrong
This is what the change should be. No one saw it. No one liked it
The forum is the way to interact to with us people send me YouTube private messages
I'm like, what are you high? I get hundreds of them
I can't look at all of these whereas when I get private messages on the forum
I try to respond to them if there's something to be responded to if it's just like Yolo swag 420 Linus
I think you're awesome. I'll be like, yeah, okay user forum Yolo Yolo swag 420 smoke it
I think every single time I see him post on anything. I'm just like, oh
I
Should I expect some sweet deals on new gen cards around Christmas this year? I would stay tuned for Black Friday
That's where you'll actually get this. I'm excited. I've heard tons of rumors
I don't know if you've heard about this note 3 on Black Friday is supposed to like be super cheap. Huh?
That's like actually sensibly purchasable cheap which heatsink should I get with a node 605?
Noctua has a really nice low-profile one that we will be unboxing soon and then installing in Edzell's video editing rig
I forget what it's called though L something
Basically find the Noctua low-profile one. All right, this is this is my answer. What cooler should I get?
Find the Noctua one that fits
Noctua did not pay me to say this
Although I know I'm not going to talk about Linus. What do you think of the ps4 red line of death?
I think that the the rumors of its death have been greatly exaggerated
The the number that's being thrown around right now is 0.4% which is within not
Any confirmation on Linus edition Corsair fans, I have no plans for Corsair fans Linus edition fans
Would you rather eat a piece of year-old garlic bread or rub sriracha on your face and kiss slick?
I've probably eaten year-old garlic bread before so I'm gonna go with that
Hook up the graphics card cooling loop to an AC during winter equals winning
You know what? I actually brought the chiller the other day. It's here now
You know, do you know anyone who can do metal fabrication? Yes. Let's get it done. It won't be cheap. That's fine
Let's get it done. Let's make an enclosure so that I know someone who can make custom cases for us. Yes higher computer cases
Okay
Let's get a case for the chiller the challenge I had before was that I needed appropriate insulation on the tank for the cold side
That was the issue I had before but if we could make a case for it, it would be heavy
We could put it on wheels though
But we need to get it self-contained because that's the only reason I don't use it. They can cat it for us and everything
Okay, let's do it. It won't be cheap
Okay, are we talking $10,000 not cheap or are we talking $1,000 not cheap? Probably like the lower one. Okay
I have no idea though. Um hookup. Okay. Have you heard the alarm clock that tells you how long you've got left to live? No
That's awesome
Squarespace win a website event hashtag. Oh crap. Yeah, I know. What are your thoughts of the wallet replacement coin card?
Haven't actually seen that
interesting
I'm from New Zealand. I bet they hid the Xbox in Auckland. It's it's in a it's in the yeah, it's not hidden
Alright, so back to the show
The humble store is up. This is pretty cool
There's both cool and it seems like sort of a step in a direction that I don't want them to go. Yeah
Oh, yeah, like what the devil is this exactly?
fixed percentage of
Sales sharing at 10 which is like so this is what just happened. What is this thing doing?
It's taking inputs and it's not putting them to the right place. Well, it should stop that like
Okay, why don't you just use your browser why am I in that browser now, where's the other one?
I think you just open that I hate my life. Well, I don't hate my life. I just hate this
I
Know but I have it open here and I'm logged in. Yeah. Okay. There we go
I don't even know what I did. Well you drag them to the top back to humble bundle
I'm trying to click on the okay. So the original humble bundle concept, okay indie games
We want to support indie developers
You choose a charitable donation money to give to the indie game dev or money to give to the humble bundle organization
That was the original concept. Okay, then we got the humble weekly sale, which is
Whatever it is
It's basically an excuse to run two bundles at the same time as far as I can tell and then the humble store
Which is not bundles
It is games that you buy and instead of choosing where the money goes now
It is 10% of the proceeds go to charity period have we have we lost our way a little bit here
One thing about this is we never see big triple-a new titles on the humble bundle
Okay, and this house winter cell blacklist and this has some
Action far cry cry 3 blood dragon for like 10 bucks. It's like five dollars off, which is like it's a deal
But it's not that compelling and why am I giving you 10% for this?
I mean, basically they're just leveraging the traffic that they got by being good guys and becoming a good steam competitor
There's still being good guys because there's 10% going in it
And I think it would probably be harder to get developers to jump on the store idea
So that's probably where it has to go
They probably have to have slightly bigger margins because they're probably have the people in the store taking more
They can probably promise the developer higher margins this way as well
Whereas humble bundle is just like okay free-for-all
But humble bundle has traditionally been either indie or if it's triple-a
It's old like my understanding is that EA had a lot of the contributions not go to EA as
Compared to other humble bundles. This is I'm not gonna say who I heard this from but I heard it
So people were less inclined to give someone like EA money
Look at the stuff that was in the EA bundle
The only really compelling thing was battlefield 3 and they were replacing it in like a month or two
But that's not the point. They basically gave it away for free now. That's not even the point necessarily. I mean the point is that
People were willing to pay money for the game. They just weren't willing to give it to EA
Whereas if EA sells games through humble store, then at least they're guaranteed some kind of a cut
Yeah, so I understand the business here. It just seems like
It just seems like they aren't what they used to be
So let's just be aware of that which doesn't make humble bundles. Not a great deal
It just makes them not what they used to be. That's all we have
5,000 live viewers right now guys. Thank you for watching. That is amazing. You guys are awesome. Yeah. All right. Let's
I want my laptop back. I don't know why my DisplayPort output isn't working
Okay
Okay, anyways you want to go on another rant
No, no, no, no, you know what actually my problems with Nexus 5 so far have nothing to do with KitKat. Oh, I like
Okay. No, actually all the things I'm gonna bitch about are more to do with other stuff
Oh, so I have a review coming at the Nexus 5 for those of you who don't follow me on Instagram
Which I think is most of you
KitKat Android 4.4 has a feature that will allow routing to basically be disabled
Which we've heard before
Rooting this is, routing's going away, but it may actually be true this time
I wanted to talk with Wendell about this. Shoot, I meant to move this up to our guest segment
Yeah, cause he had some really interesting input. I have read already that the Nexus 5 was already rooted. Right, but this article
So the article on PC but at PCMag.com. Okay. No, I don't want to sign up for your offers. Go away
All right. So there's a picture of an Android made of KitKat bars. I need food
I am so hungry. Like my blood sugar is low and I shouldn't even be on the air right now
So what has been built into Android 4.4 KitKat essentially is the ability
For a handset maker to block routing. Now there are security implications here
there are reasons why you wouldn't want root access to be available to just about anyone because
Rooting has become so easy that it's not even just for power users anymore
But really understand the implications of it
Like I'm not a power user when it comes to phones and when it comes to digital security
Not really
I actually rely on to on him in a big way
To support me and help me with these kinds of things because I know some stuff
I know just enough to be dangerous and that is exactly what phone rooting can be
It can be just people who know just enough to be dangerous
But don't know enough to know how to protect themselves and I'm not saying rooting should be taken away from the power users
I'm just saying that it's a can of worms
So what they're going to allow is someone like Samsung who has been locking down
Functionality on their phones left and right to basically go look this phone is not readable
Okay
Now Google has not opted to make the Nexus 5 unrootable
In fact, there was a root for it before it was released and it's apparently phenomenally easy
So I think they're doing a couple things here
So number one is their positioning Nexus devices as the clear power user choice
Because I think they know that whatever they think about it
There's gonna be certain handset makers that are gonna want to lock this down. Number two is
They are allowing Android to be potentially more secure on platforms where?
Handset makers feel like they can get away with it. And so Samsung so it's like Samsung. I think this is interesting for some engine mode
Yeah, they just tried to be like, oh, hey everyone. We're gonna make that way easier implementation
Implementation we're gonna make one click of thing
We're gonna make all this other kind of stuff and then now Google's like, oh, here's this thing
Although they're not putting on Nexus devices, which is kind of cool. I'm stoked to try it
I'm becoming more and more of a phone guy all the time. So this is my first experience with vanilla Android pure Android experience
I'm going to be trying out Ubuntu phone at some point
I'm gonna try out cyanogen mod as soon as I get my HTC one back
But I'm excited I'm like I'm getting to the point where I can make observations about phones that aren't just stupid
Are you leaving? How are we getting all the gear there on Monday?
Okay, we'll figure it out we have a shoot on Monday so
I don't know. Ha I will be benchmarking games. Our next topic is
AMD to bring
Haha
Wow
So this was posted on the forum by top war gamer and the original articles from polygon calm
So AMD to release Tress effects 2.0 animates grass and fur
so now we can have Lara Croft's hair and
grass
animated by Tress effects
Wow, you just made that joke. Well, I kind of had to Wow
So trust FX
I
Mean there's good things about it. So it's supported on both AMD and Nvidia. So that's a thing. It's
Phenomenally performance intensive. Oh, yeah on low-end cars. What kind of performance deltas were you see it almost half it. Yeah
Whoa, not quite but like close on something like a 260 X on the on the r7 240 video
You'll notice that it's it's pretty high settings, but with Tress effects off. So that's a real barrier
I mean mantle me may alleviate these issues somewhat and improve the performance of it
It's like I thanked everyone for being here and that we had 5,000 viewers and it went like all the way down to like
4700 for a bit there. Ah
It's like yeah. Well, you know, whatever Linus
Screw you man. Well, we actually I think it's just that the stream started late. So people are and we're currently it
Yeah, we're near 5,000. I'm using the X split number which isn't always which isn't always up-to-date. Sometimes it's zero
I mean the other problem that I have with Tress FX
So besides the performance hit and maybe mantle can alleviate this but it probably won't on Nvidia because even though Tress FX works on Nvidia
Blah blah blah mantle unless they implement mantle. So it's all up in here right now
Is that the game list is a little bit?
Ghost town. I mean I criticize physics I do I I have criticized physics many times in the past not because it isn't great technology
It is it's cool
It could have ushered in a new era of gameplay if it hadn't been tied first to a proprietary
PCI add-in card and then to one GPU maker, but I'm gonna criticize Tress FX for the same thing right now
The the game list is is Tomb Raider
But and Tomb Raider, yeah, and I don't even mean Tomb Raider and the old Tomb Raider
I mean Tomb Raider 2013 Edition and Tomb Raider 2013 Edition. That's the problem
I I will be so I will I will pray to the gods of gaming if
Freaking Elder Scrolls 6 comes with Tress FX 2.0 because grass and fur
Random in an Elder Scrolls game Tress FX style would be amazing mods can already make it really cool
But adding Tress FX to that and then allowing people to mod it like holy crap
Imagine imagine the grass mods that some people been doing to Skyrim
I know with Tress FX that would kill any system you have for one
But for two would look amazing
What's cool about mantle to though is we could be looking at a completely different way of interacting with multi GPU systems
So you could kind of go?
Yeah
No
This is my Tress FX card and this is my this and this is my that and you throw like three different GPUs in your
System and then I mean we're talking later on down the future
But we're just talking about the way that AMD is approaching allowing game developers to
Spread out resources and leverage them the way that they want to oh, it's an exciting world
We haven't even talked enough about Kaveri. We're gonna have to talk about it next week
I mean heterogeneous system architecture is gonna be such a big deal
Allowing the CPU and the GPU to access the memory resources they need and share them
One thing that I'm super sorry to cut you off a little bit one thing
I'm super stoked with AMD about lately is how they develop this awesome thing
Yeah, like Tress FX and like HSA and just go like yeah sure
Open yeah, they just say someone else deal with it. We'll just develop it
And it's just I mean is this a return to the Athlon 64 days where they said look here's our
64-bit extension and Intel go ahead
Well, we'll license it to you. Obviously. Yeah, it's all but but basically we want this to be a standard
We worked really hard on this who we'd like for people to use it. I
Hope they do because it could be awesome someone just said in the chat
There's already Tress FX style mods for Skyrim
But one thing that he also brought up which is very important is it doesn't support like collision detection stuff, right?
Which is like a really big deal. Yeah, so so you know what?
I think we have to cut off the show now even though we honestly had probably a dozen more topics that we would have loved
to talk to you guys about as always you can check out the the document in the
Description of the YouTube archive so if you will just wanted to see what we thought was interesting this week
Even if we didn't get a chance to talk about it, please go ahead and do that
Thank you so much for watching guys huge. Thanks again to hotspot shield for sponsoring the show today
It's so hard for us to bring a show like this to you guys with all the work that goes into it without
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so guys if you haven't checked out hotspot shield before check it out bit.ly slash HS share and if you wanted to use a
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Guys, whatever reason try it out
Give hotspot shield a chance the trial is free and if you have any problems and you post them on the forum hotspot
Shield has been pretty proactive about helping Linus tech tips calm forum members, which again
We appreciate the support you guys that sets you apart from
Again, we need to make them an industry affiliate. Yeah, we should probably do that. All right. Peace out guys
Thanks for watching. Are you doing an after-party? I'm doing an after-party. I'll cover bill logs of the week there. Sorry. We didn't have time
And I will try and cover some of the other random topics that we did
So unofficial after-party on the twitch.tv slash Luke underscore la fr
channel so
Guys, I we've noticed quite a few people are subscribing to that channel. It should be noted that
We're gonna have some if you want to support us and what we do here
There will be some better options where more of the revenue actually
Goes to us it's public dollars twitch takes 50%
Yeah soon
So if you kind of stay tuned for that there's gonna be like some really good stuff
Everyone says all right screw Linus everyone over to pistols channel
Alright guys, why don't we do that whole thing where we stop streaming and then we dump everyone?
Okay, everyone go over to pistols channel. So pistol is is also a member of the tech syndicate team
So it's Logan and Wendell our guests today everyone go over there and just be like Yolo Linus sent us Yolo
Yeah, Yolo
Well, you do only live once are you becoming Edsel now?
Well, I don't know. I I've been working with you guys for a long time
I know like I've been working with him over a year now, isn't that crazy? I've been working with you over two years
like
Are we friends
Yeah Linus media groups a stupid name