When we go to the dojos there, we all get thrown by people
that never come out to be world champions.
They're just in the mix, or they're going through three years
of university, and then they go.
We had a guy that came in.
He was a business guy.
He came in with his suitcase and his tie up like that,
and he's in his lunch hour.
He's in his lunch hour, right?
So he's got to be quick.
So he comes in, and he goes through.
He's working his way through the whole of the British team.
We're all lined up, right?
Ten minutes later, he's just tying his tie up like that,
and back to work like that.
Imagine him sitting behind his desk in his computer.
Yeah, yeah.
I'm glad he didn't get out.
Who do you think wins, Yamashita?
I think Yamashita, but you know.
Wait, wait, wait.
You think Yamashita would be Steaderunner?
I think so.
Strong words.
The following is a conversation with Neil Adams,
a legend in the sport of judo.
He is a world champion, two-time Olympic silver medalist,
five-time European champion,
and often referred to as the voice of judo,
commentating all the major events,
world championships and Olympic games,
highlighting the drama, the triumph,
the artistry of the sport of judo,
making fans like me feel the biggest wins,
the biggest losses,
the surprise turns of fortune,
the dominance of champions coming to an end,
and new champions made.
Always speaking from the heart.
This is the Lex Friedman Podcast.
To support it,
please check out our sponsors in the description.
And now, dear friends,
here's Neil Adams.
You are a five-time European champion,
world champion,
two-time Olympic silver medalist.
Let's first go to the 1980 Olympics.
Where was your mind?
What was your preparation like?
What was your strategy leading into that Olympics?
That was my first Olympic Games.
So my preparation was a little bit different
to how it was the 84 and the 88 Olympic Games.
And I'd kind of done part of the preparation as well
for 76 Olympic Games.
I wasn't quite old enough for those,
but I was first reserve.
So in 1980,
I'd had four years build up
and I was hungry
and I was one of these young athletes
and I see them so often now
that was developing
and, you know,
full of,
I won't say full of myself,
but I was certainly confident of my ability
and I wanted to conquer the world.
And I'd had a couple of really tight matches
with the current Olympic world champion.
So I knew that there was a possibility
that I could get there
for the 80 Olympics.
So building up to the 80 Olympics
was quite interesting
because I was kind of coming through the weights
and I was halfway in between
the 71 kilos weight category
and the higher weight category of 78 kilograms.
And I'd got third place
at the 79 world championships,
the weight below
for the whole year
at the higher weight category,
didn't win a loser contest.
So I'd beaten everybody in the world.
And,
and then I had to make decision
as to whether to drop
to the weight below
because I was seeded in the weight below.
It was a different seeding then.
And so I decided to drop
into the weight below
because I was seeded in the top four.
And as it happens,
I think it was probably
the worst decision I made.
Well, because,
simply because,
I mean,
it was the only contest that I lost
was the final of the Olympic games
in that year.
So you're a young kid,
what,
like 1920 at that time,
full of confidence,
vigor.
So the decision to cut weight,
how hard was it for you
to cut weight
to the 71 kg division?
I've got to say that
it was the hardest
because as I was going up,
I was,
you know,
it was 73,
then it was 74 kilos,
75.
So I was moving
through the weight category.
It wasn't like
I was stuck in the middle
and then I dropped
the odd time to compete.
It was literally
going up in weight
by a kilo
every,
every month.
And then by the time
I came to a month
or two before the Olympics,
it was really hard.
Fought the European championships
at the higher weight category
and won that.
And so everybody
that was in the,
on the Olympic rostrum
at the European,
at the Olympic games
was on my rostrum
at the European championships.
So was it a mistake?
Yeah,
because I didn't have
my diet sorted out.
My nutrition was appalling.
And when I,
you know,
it wasn't as kind of
readily available
as it is now
for the nutrition.
And I would say that
if anything lost me
that final,
other than the fact
that I was fighting,
somebody was terrific.
You know,
he was an excellent,
brilliant athlete.
But it definitely
didn't help
that my nutrition
was not very good.
Okay,
so you lost to Ezio Gama.
There's probably a lot of
that we could say
about that particular match.
Maybe let's zoom in.
What were your strengths
and weaknesses
judo-wise
in that Olympics?
You said you haven't
really lost the match.
You won the European championship
leading into it.
But if you had weak spots,
okay,
you already said diet,
but specifically on the mat
in terms of judo.
I think that's
none of the fights
lasted time
going into the final.
You know,
so I won fairly quickly
and every match by Ippon,
you know,
way before time.
Do you remember how?
Do you remember
how you won the match?
I won them by throw,
a couple of throws
for Ippon
and then arm lock
for Ippon
semi-final
was an arm lock
against the East German,
Kruger.
And yeah,
just I was flying through,
you know.
What were the throws?
Do you remember?
Taiatoshi Uchimata,
my favorite kind of
Toku was,
my favorite throws.
And then Jujukitami as well,
you know,
which was a Jujukitami role
against an East German
who I'd beaten before
but always had a really tough match
but managed to beat him well.
So you had a beautiful exhibition
of Japanese type judo
in the first two matches.
Yeah.
You threw people
and then you also did
the Neuwazi,
you un-barred a person.
Great.
So you're going into the final.
What are the weaknesses
going into the final
against the Italian?
Like I say,
taking nothing away from him
as a great athlete
and a brilliant judo man
and left,
which wasn't good for me.
That was definite no
because I hated fighting lefties,
still do.
But I'll tell you why
in a minute.
I just did.
Great.
It's one of those.
But I think as I went
through the contest,
we had an eight-hour break
from the semifinal to the final.
They took us back
to the Olympic Village.
Then we had to come back in
and then we had to start
a warm-up again,
you know,
so I kind of lost my momentum.
I had to start again
and I never,
I didn't.
I just didn't.
I had a job to get going.
I got halfway through,
started to rescue a dying match
and, you know,
I was kind of one step,
half a step behind
all the way through.
So I never really got into it.
So why do you hate
fighting lefties?
And lefties are,
we should say,
overrepresented
in terms of
the high ranks of judo.
I don't know why that is.
Well, you know,
the thing is about a lefty
is a lefty will have
more opportunity
to fight righties,
you know,
right-handers.
Because I mean,
70% of the population
are right-handers,
30% left.
So they get to fight more
right-handers.
And it's just a fact,
you know,
that happens.
So the thing that they hate
is fighting left against left.
They don't like,
they don't like it
left against left.
Whereas a right-hander
will go right against right,
you know,
but the opposite
is awkward
for me
because just simply
I like to go onto the sleeve
and then I like to dominate the grips.
But the actual angle
of the opponent
wasn't what I wanted,
you know,
so I had to work hard,
really hard against it.
What happened in that match?
It was a split decision
in the end.
And so to lose
an Olympic final
on a split decision
is pretty,
you know,
it's something
that's still on my mind.
And,
you know,
I think that
it's a strange one
because I can still
wake up
that one
and four years later
at the Olympics
because I was silver medalist
at the Olympics
four years later as well.
And,
yeah,
it still haunts me.
Do you sometimes wake up
and think like,
man,
I should have eaten better?
Yeah.
Or like,
or maybe like a specific grip
that you're like,
I shouldn't have taken that grip.
I do,
you know,
I mean,
the diet side of it
is,
it's difficult to,
you know,
to,
to really admit that,
isn't it?
That you,
you went to an Olympic Games
and the one thing
that you really sucked at,
right,
was one of the most important things
now
at,
at world level sport,
you know,
where you've got
the nutrition,
you know,
we've got it.
You would think that most people
have got it sorted,
but there's still people
making mistakes.
There's still people
that haven't got it
totally sorted.
And then there's people
like Travis Stevens
who I think
doesn't care.
He'll just have
atrocious nutrition
and he just makes it work.
I think the way
he spoke about it
is
you can't
always control nutrition
so it's best to get good
at having
crappy nutrition.
It's a good way
of looking at it.
I never,
yeah,
maybe that's what I did.
Exactly.
Exactly.
Do you remember
what you were eating?
Are you talking about
like candy or?
Yeah,
well,
I got a sweet tooth,
you know,
but I wasn't,
it wasn't really,
I mean,
I didn't have a lot of money
at that particular time
either,
you know,
so the diet wasn't
steak and,
and,
you know,
good nutritional salads
and things like that.
You know,
I did what I thought
was best without,
you know,
proper advice
and the crazy thing is
is that I had such
good advice as well,
you know,
when it came to
kind of fitness training
and things like that
were quite ahead of our time
and,
you know,
we really had it nailed
as far as the conditioning
was concerned.
The judo training as well
was,
was a way in advance
because I was a good trainer
and I trained
more than most.
I would,
I can honestly say that.
It probably got me away
with,
you know,
a lot.
Where was your mind?
So mental preparation
going into that Olympics.
You said you were confident,
but is there some
preparation aspect
behind that confidence?
I think in the early days,
I didn't think
I was going to lose.
I never thought
it was possible to lose.
And I think that
I went into every contest
expecting to win.
So when it didn't
quite go my way,
I didn't lose
that many contests,
you know,
so the only ones I lost
were in the final
of the world championships
or in the final
of the Olympic games.
So I didn't lose that many.
I never lost
a European title.
You know,
I had seven golds
at European championships,
you know,
five seniors,
two juniors,
under 20s.
And I never,
I never lost the final,
you know,
so it was,
and then I only lost two
on a split decision,
you know,
so it was,
I didn't lose that many
and my attitude was
that I wasn't going to lose
and I couldn't lose,
you know,
so I was always surprised
when I did,
when I,
you know,
something happened.
In,
uh,
Neil Adams,
A Life in Judo,
written in 1986,
you wrote,
ever since I can remember,
I have wanted to win.
It wasn't the ordinary feeling
that children have
when they take part
in their first
primary school sack race
on a grass track
or even the keen determination
of a young swimmer
prepared to train early
in the cold winter mornings
in order to make it
into the county side.
with me
the desire to win
was and still is
as much a part of me
as my arms
and legs.
In other words,
it wasn't something
I learned
as I grew older
but rather
it was deeply rooted
in me.
Perhaps
this competitive instinct
is the greatest difference
between my public image
and the view
from the inside.
So people
see the kindness,
the, uh,
the warmth you have,
the charisma,
the excitement
but there's this
big drive
to win
inside you.
So,
what's behind that?
Can you just speak
to that drive
to win
and how that contributed
to your competitive career?
Do you know,
when I look back now,
That's a lot of years ago
we should say.
It is a lot of years ago.
Is that true
or were you just being poetic?
It's not far off.
No, you know,
it's not,
when I think about it now,
because I'm a,
I'd like to think
that I'm a different person now
and, you know,
since I've kind of calmed down,
I,
I see athletes now
and I see them,
they,
they, uh,
you know,
and they,
they're kind of arrogance,
they,
they're walking,
it's a strut,
you know,
and it's,
it's a kind of a confidence,
isn't it?
You know,
and,
and as we're older
and as I've become older,
I've,
I've calmed down
and,
but,
you know,
it doesn't matter
what I'm doing.
It's still that will
to,
to win,
you know,
and,
and I'm much better
at masking it now
if I don't,
but it still bothers me
as much.
You're talking about like,
I don't know,
even just like stupid,
silly things,
like,
like,
I don't know,
a game of pool
or something like this
or just anything.
Yeah,
I'm still trying to win,
you know,
like,
so my son loves to,
he loves to play me at bowls
because I'm useless,
you know,
and I'm,
I just can't throw
a straight bowl.
So he loves playing me at that,
you know,
but it bugs me
that I'm not better,
you know,
and there are certain things
that I do,
it really bugs me
when I'm not good at it
and I guess it's one of the reasons
that,
you know,
long after I'd finished competition,
judo,
people still want to train with you,
you know,
and even at a,
like,
kind of an older age,
even now,
if I do in a seminar
or,
you know,
they'd still,
you know,
do you still do,
do you want to still go
and can I feel it
and,
you know,
one of the things
that's in me
is that I just,
all the way up to 40 years of age,
so from 30,
when I finished competition
up to 40,
I could still train
with the best
and I could still go
with anybody
and then when 40 hit,
kind of things started
to fall off a little bit,
you know,
and I used to get,
you know,
either my hips
or my legs
and my knees
and I realized
that I had to pick
my practices
and that rankled as well
and I had to then
just calm it down
a little bit
otherwise I was going
to be injured
and I was going
to be,
you know,
it's not a good thing
when you're getting older
and you've still got
the same competitive mind
but things change.
So it's still there,
you get on the mat,
probably even now,
right?
You get on the mat
with a world champion,
you're still,
the current world champion,
there's still a little part
of you like,
could I still toss this guy?
Kids these days are soft.
I do.
Well,
you know what,
some of these athletes,
I mean like,
I give you a prime example,
right,
is Ilias Iliadis.
I mean,
he is a monster,
right?
Yeah.
And you just,
of course you couldn't,
you know,
because just at 60 something,
you couldn't,
but you like to think
that you could,
you know.
You could,
you never know,
you gotta find out.
You know what you would do,
what you can do
is you can cause them problems
and they feel it immediately
but you'd last a minute,
you know.
So you've trained
with Ilias Iliadis.
I've gotten a chance
to train with him as well.
He's a really nice guy,
really great guy.
He trained with me.
We were training together.
Every hotel that we used to go into,
we'd end up in the gym together
and we'd train.
And this one time
he was in there
and he just wanted somebody
to grab and grip hold of.
And so we ended up doing
this kind of grappling
in the middle of,
you know,
like the people doing weight training
and, you know,
the different things,
watching these two mad men doing,
I'm glad we weren't on a mat
at that particular time.
Yeah.
But good fun.
What do you think about that guy?
He,
like you,
achieved a lot of success
when he was young.
17.
You imagine that?
17,
18 years of age
and he's able to compete
with the men.
And there's not many men
can do that,
you know,
and it doesn't happen very often.
It happens later with the men.
And often,
they're not physically
as developed as they,
you know,
so from me,
for example,
I fought Nevzorov,
who was World and Olympic champion.
He was the current
World and Olympic champion.
And they sent me
to the European Championship
senior at 17.
And so that doesn't happen
very often.
And I fought,
I pulled Nevzorov.
So I fought Nevzorov
and I had him really worried,
you know,
because he expected
without a doubt
to come out,
throw this kid,
you know,
and junior.
And he was like thick
and shredded,
like he's a man.
He was shredded.
He's like,
there's a picture of him
in his judogi
and his judogi
is just cut
and it's,
you know,
and he looks the business.
And there's me
in this baggy,
like,
skinny kid
inside this baggy thing.
And the thing was,
is that the more he tried
and the harder he tried
and the more he panicked,
the further it went away from him.
And so,
you know,
of course,
he got the decision
at the end
and deservedly.
But I worried him,
you know,
and so for me
that was a massive
step forward
because
a year later
I was,
you know,
starting to fill out
and two years later
I was competing
for the Olympic title.
I don't know if I remember,
but
Elias Iliadis
is interesting
because
even at 17
I feel like he was doing
big throws,
like
literally lifting them
with the hips.
He just rips them
out of the ground,
you know,
and I was saying to Nikki,
you know,
my wife,
and we,
she said,
what would you do
now
that was different
than the way you did then,
you know,
and I said,
I never had any pickups,
you know,
I didn't,
that's not,
that's not what we did,
you know,
but you have a look
at the young
Ukrainians
or the,
you know,
the young Russians
or the young
Eastern Bloc
Mongolians
and they're ripping
people out the ground.
I mean,
it's just different style
of Judo
and it just looks different,
but now they're starting
to do traditional style
Judo as well.
So,
can you speak to that
with the different styles
of Judo?
So,
for you,
you mentioned
Uchimata,
Tayotoshi,
these,
how would you describe them?
They're like these
effortless,
less lifting off
the ground
and power
and like strength
and more timing
and position,
movement,
momentum,
all this kind of stuff.
That's more traditionally
associated with
Japanese Judo
because like for
Japanese Judo,
the traditional Judo,
like you're supposed
to throw people
in a big way
without much effort.
And of course,
we,
1990,
we saw the introduction
of all these
Eastern Bloc
countries,
you know,
the,
there were so many more.
I mean,
it was Soviet Union
when I was competing
and then of course
in 1990,
everything changed
and then there were
so many more of them
out there,
different countries
where,
you know,
their wrestling styles
were introduced
into Judo.
You know,
put a jacket on them
and let's get into Judo.
So Judo kind of changed
shape.
It changed shape
from this upright
standing,
you know,
and having to know
the technicalities
of how to get
a body
that's weighing
40,
you know,
14 stone
or,
you know,
whatever it is
up into the air
and using the momentum
and the balance
and the direction
and the skill
to do that
and knowing how to do it,
you know,
and how to use movement.
And then you get,
you know,
the wrestlers
and the leg picks
and the double legs,
single legs,
double legs
and,
you know,
and it kind of,
by 1995,
you know,
Judo was bent over
and so it was the IOC
that went to IJF,
International Judo Federation
and they said,
you've got to change this
or we're just going to have
one wrestling style.
It looks like wrestling
with Judo,
with Judo jackets on
so you either change it
or we're going to
take one of you out.
By the way,
we should sort of clarify,
when we say people
are bent over,
that's usually how you see
freestyle wrestling.
Wrestlers are more bent over
to defend the legs
and so on
and traditional Judo,
people are more standing up
because that's the position
from which you can do
the big throws
and all that kind of stuff.
But I think the other case
to make for banning leg grabs
is, you know,
a lot of people are using it
for stalling
and not for beautiful big throws
and all that kind of stuff.
Yeah.
So it's not just
not to make it different
from wrestling,
it's also like
you want to maximize
the amount of epic throws
and dynamic Judo
and exciting stuff
to watch, right?
Yeah, win by Judo,
not by wrestling.
And I think that,
you know,
the ones that were shouting
about it
were the wrestlers, right?
Because they like to compete
with both.
They want to do both.
They want to do,
you know,
their wrestling matches
and then come into Judo.
So basically,
I mean,
what we've said
is they'll learn to do Judo
and there's nothing stopping you
then from doing both,
right?
But not from the other way around.
All right?
So rules always dictate development.
They'll always dictate
which direction it goes.
So if you introduce a rule
that states that
you cannot dive at the legs
and just pick up,
then you'll have to do it
standing up.
And also,
it increases the possibility
of defense
with the hips
because actually
good defense
Judo-wise
standing up
is with the hips
as opposed to
sticking your arms out
and then sticking
your backsides out there
just to defend.
All right?
So if you attack me
and I move my body
in the wrong place
so I'm in the right
wrong place
at the right time
so you don't hit
the right target
and then also
I use my hips.
You know,
so again,
it's a form of Judo
that was being lost.
So now we've got it back.
So let's go there.
Let's speak about Judo
as if we're talking
to a group of five-year-olds.
So what is Judo?
What are some
defining characteristics
of Judo as a sport,
as a way,
as a martial art,
as a way of life,
all that kind of stuff?
I think,
you know,
when you say
it is a way of life,
I mean,
I think the great advantage
that we have
in Judo,
my young grandson,
so I got two little boys
that are three and a half years of age,
love going to our dojo.
They love it,
you know?
So dojo was the first word
that they used.
It was one of the first,
so when they come to see us,
you know,
so as I see my wife and I,
you know,
it's like dojo.
So it's not grandma,
granddad,
you know,
it's a dojo.
So dojo,
they take their shoes off
going into the dojo,
you know,
so they have respect
for where they're at,
you know,
and I think it has
that kind of feeling
that,
like,
I tried to build my dojo
with a feeling
of reverence.
It's kind of almost peaceful,
you know,
so if,
like,
I'm not religious,
I'm not a religious person,
but I like going to old churches
because when I go into
an old church,
it doesn't matter,
you know,
what the religion
within the church,
but there's a reverence
in there.
Reverence is a good word.
It feels like
a really special place,
no matter which dojo
you go to.
It's just,
you bow
and there's a calmness
before the storm
of battle
or whatever it is.
Yeah,
and respect,
you know.
Yeah,
respect.
Look at the respect.
You know,
we were just talking about it
just before we came on air.
We were just saying
that we very,
very seldom
do we have a situation
where there is
animosity
other than
them fighting,
you know.
So I'm not saying
that they don't fight
each other
because sometimes
it does turn into a brawl
and at the end
two people bow off
and show their respect,
you know,
and one of the things
that,
you know,
like,
so a champion,
I see people
winning events
and they're good judoka
or they're excellent.
They win world championships,
might even win
the Olympic Games.
But a great champion
for me
is somebody
who treats,
who does the right thing
when they lose,
you know.
So when you see them lose,
that's when you see
the true them,
you know.
And actually,
that was one of the biggest
things that I had to
really cope with,
you know.
So when I lost
the Olympic Games
in Moscow
and also the one
in Los Angeles,
the hardest thing
is when the microphone's
in there
and you've got to
be respectful
and nice
and the hardest thing
is to smile.
But actually,
some of the great champions,
you know,
they'll go,
that's just one match.
You know,
I remember
we've got
one great champion,
Agbeg Nenou.
She's a five-time
world champion,
she's an Olympic champion.
She's favourite as well
to get this Olympic
gold medal,
French.
What a great champion
she is,
you know,
because she lost
one of the matches.
I mean,
she'd come back
and she'd
given birth,
come back
after giving birth.
And everybody was going,
well,
was she,
you know,
and then she lost
one of the matches
on the way through
and she said,
well,
don't be upset
you know,
it's just one match.
It's just one contest.
You know,
next time I'm going
to put it right
and she did put it right
and now she's back up there
and she won the world title back.
So,
you know,
these are great champions
for me.
Yeah,
I mean,
that's the right way to see it
but it's also tragic
to lose the Olympic Games,
you know.
Twice.
Thanks.
Yes.
It is tragic
and I do have
sleepless nights.
I mean,
that's the magic
of the Olympic Games.
Anything can happen
and your 1980 Olympics
were very different
from the 1984
but if we just linger
on the 80
and just your,
we were talking about
how much
you wanted to win.
Do you love winning
or hate losing more?
I hate losing more
but I love winning.
When I won the world title
a year later
and I had no doubt
when I went in
that day
that I was going to be
world champion.
No doubt.
So you won
the 81
world championship?
At the higher weight.
At the higher,
the 78.
Yes.
KG.
Actually,
can we go there?
What was going
through your mind?
You ended up
arm barring
a Japanese fighter.
I talked to
Jimmy Pedro,
a friend of yours,
somebody who said
you were a mentor
to him for many years
and he told me
a bunch of different
questions to ask you
but he said
that was a really
special time.
That was a really
special
like
dominant
run you had
and especially
finishing with an
arm bar
against a Japanese
player.
So take me
through that.
What do you
remember from that?
I think that
it was
so my weight
was better.
I didn't have
to lose weight.
That was one thing.
So the nutritional
side
wasn't as important
but probably
you know
it still wasn't
as good as it
could be
my nutrition
although
it was getting
better
and I was
trying to eat
the right things
at the right time
but
I still
trained really
well
and I was
so confident
there going
into that
world championships
that
I could
win it.
I had no doubt
in my mind
that I was
going to win
but
you know
obviously
a corner of
your mind
you're thinking
just don't
make mistakes
but you know
this is the
incredible thing
is that
once you start
to ask you
once I see
contests
change direction
when I'm
commentating
so I can see
somebody who's
in there
just going
forward
just trying
to win
right
so that
and that's
the difference
to somebody
who's
trying not
to lose
and it's
two different
ways there
you know
so sometimes
when you
so when I
was world
champion
then I had
a period
of time
where every
time I
stepped out
there
I was
really
afraid
of losing
and I
think that
that's what
happens
later on
in your
competitive
career
you know
the great
champions
managed to
come through
that
Teddy
Rene
is one
of those
you know
he just
he puts
it out
there
and he
keeps
beating
them
you know
so they
can't
take it
away
from him
you know
it's
it's
it's
fantastic
so stepping
on the
mat
every single
encounter
you're
trying to
win
you're
looking
for the
grips
and the
with the
intention
to throw
throw big
even when
you're ahead
on points
all that
kind of
stuff
that's a
really good
point
is that
if you
go ahead
in a
match
and you
look at
the clock
it depends
when you
go ahead
sometimes
you can
go ahead
in the
first
minute
and you've
still got
three minutes
to go
so I see
the ones
then that
go into
I don't
want to
lose
because they
go into
defensive
mode
and then
sometimes
they can
lose it
on penalties
or something
can go
wrong
and the
other one
comes on
strong
and then
they can
sneak
the contest
and so
it's
really difficult
but when I
was coaching
I was trying
to always
encourage
that positive
attitude
for the
full four
minutes
five minutes
then
I've competed
a lot
in judo
and jiu-jitsu
I've always
hated that
part of
myself
when I'm
up on
points
by a lot
you look
at the
clock
and it's
what you
do
when you
look at
the clock
minute and
a half
you're really
tired
and you
kind of
quit
you just
defend
yeah
and I
hated that
part about
myself
you're saying
don't do it
yeah
well as opposed
to just
go out
in judo
that's for
a big throw
just keep
going for
the throw
in jiu-jitsu
it's go
for the
submission
win in
the real
way
versus
on
points
and I
hated that
part of
myself
I mean
mostly
underneath
that
is
cowardice
induced
by
exhaustion
exhaustion
is the one
isn't it
but it is
isn't it
it's a
mindset
as well
so actually
trying to
get your
mind
positive
all the
way
through
so I
mean
if you
listen
when I
commentated
now
is I
say I
hope
that they
don't
change
the
mindset
and that
they keep
on
and they
are going
forward
all the
time
you know
and actually
they're
then more
difficult
to catch
we had one
just a couple
of weeks
ago
and he
lost in
the final
second
of the
contest
lost the
final
he was the
only one
to score
he got
penalized
all the
way up
two seconds
to go
and stepped
out of the
area
and you
know
but he
went like
that
thinking the
bell
was just
going
and the
bell
went
one
second
after
he
actually
stepped
out
so he
got
penalized
lost
the
match
and
lost
all of
the
points
for
qualification
so it
was you
know
that's
paying
high
price
that's
paying
high
price
yeah
I mean
that's
there's
a thin
line
between
triumph
and tragedy
in
those
competitions
but especially
at the
Olympic
Games
so
let's
just
stick on
81
World
Championship
what did
it feel
like
to win
that
world
championship
like
and also
getting
an armbar
as a
Japanese
player
Jimmy
told me
your arms
were exhausted
yeah
I mean
you just
the thing
is
sometimes
you know
when you're
going
when it's
competitive
as well
you know
ours is
a different
intensity
to like
where you
can take
time a
little bit
ours
is
bang
it's
transitioning
from
standing
down
you've
got
10-15
seconds
to go
in there
you go
in 100%
it's a bit
like
running
you know
full out
for 10
seconds
like
and then
you've
got to
decide
then
especially
if they're
defending it
whether you
let it go
because
when you
get up
your forearms
are blown
you know
and you've got
lactic acid
in there
and you've
still got to
grip up
because
remember
ours is
about
gripping
as well
on the
jacket
so if
you can't
grip up
then you
can't gain
the advantage
then
they can
throw you
you know
so you
have to
decide
so I
had a
massive
attack
on him
and we
changed
directions
four or
five times
and then
I wasn't
going to
let him
go
but I
still
you know
when I
was turning
him there
I had to
decide
am I going
to go
all out
for this
and just
or you
know
like
there has
been
occasions
when I've
kind of
released
it
to just
you know
if I've got
a minute
to go
and just
lock out
yeah
so
so what
you're
saying
on the
feet
there was
a change
of direction
all different
kinds of
attempts
and then
you went
to the
ground
and that's
so what
was that
do you
remember
that decision
of like
okay
am I going
to finish
this
yeah I knew
it
I just
as soon
as I
climbed
his back
and then
I thought
he's not
going
he's not
going
I'm not
going to
let him
up
you know
so I
was just
changing
a little
voice in
your head
something in
my head
was going
don't
you know
just stick
on him
and then
it's always
about pressure
on the arm
and I just
you know
and of course
he was like
that
you know
defending
you know
he was
almost
total bridge
trying to get
out of it
did it start
in turtle
and then like
did you
started in turtle
because I
did an attack
came back
out of the
attack
and then
he went
on to
his front
and then
I was on
his back
and then
I started
the whole
time
saw an opening
and you just
went for it
just I was
it was an
automatic
transition
so I mean
the transitions
are what we
teach
you know
because the
ones that are
quicker down
with the
transitions
are the
ones that
catch it
that's our
you know
our groundwork
is the
transition
from standing
down to
ground
it's very
you know
we don't
have a
situation
where you
can kind
of work
your way
in
you are
in or
you're
not in
you're
standing
you know
so you've
got to
make sure
that you're
in
and so
I had
I was
just on
his back
like a
leech
and I
never let
him go
so you
see I
mean yeah
so that's
where the
arm bars
that's
where the
attacks
on the
ground
which is
called
niwaza
happens
in the
transition
at that
level
at that
high
world-class
level
yeah I
mean he
was no
muggy
though
I think
he just
got third
place in
the
all Japan
championships
which is
all weight
categories
so he
wasn't a
muggy
you know
he was
strong
and I'd
fought him
once before
and I knew
he was a
lefty
as well
which was
really awkward
for me
did it feel
good
better for
me than
him
it did
it felt
amazing
you know
because
it was
almost like
all these
things
disappointments
and everything
had kind of
come to
this one
point
where I was
at last
kind of
champion
of the
world
it's everything
I said
as a kid
that I had
no idea
how difficult
it was going
to be
you know
so as a
kid
as a
14 year
old kid
I remember
saying
I'm going
to be
world champion
I'm going
to be
the best
in the
world
I had
no idea
how difficult
that was
going to be
well there's
wisdom to
that right
like there's
power and
stupidity
of youth
I like that
right
yeah it is
just like I'm
going to be a
world champion
I'm going to win
this without
knowing how
hard it is
and then
once you go
after it
it's
you're trapped
you're going
to have to
do the
work
yeah
well I mean
you see it a
lot with
parents as
well
you know
parents
you know
our little
johnny is
you know
he's amazing
and he's
this that
and the
other
and they
have no
idea
what's
you know
out there
I remember
the very
first time
I stepped
out
1974
into the
European
cadets
and I
remember
that we
were fighting
I'd only
ever fought
in Great
Britain
I was the
top
you know
I was
unbeaten
in the
juniors
kids
and went
out there
and there
were these
different
fighters out
there that
were treating
me with
total disdain
and I
remember
thinking
how dare
they
you know
and I
realized
when I
came back
from that
event
there's
other people
out there
there's
just a
whole
you know
and there
are different
levels
of you know
the majority
of people
are just
not informed
as to what's
out there
and the
different levels
that there
are out there
do you remember
like a
certain opponent
that for the
first time
you felt
like holy
shit
yeah
there's
like somebody
just gripped
you up
and you're
like this
is
there's another
level to
this game
Ezio was
one of them
and I
fought him
you know
and I beat
him in the
European
championships
I beat
him in
you know
two times
and then
lost to him
in the
Olympic
Games
two months
after I'd
beaten him
in the
European
championship
yeah yeah
so it
wasn't
that
that made
it even more
difficult
right
nemesis there
yeah
wow
so that made
it more
difficult
and um
so he
Ezio was
one
and uh
getting hold
of uh
I remember
um uh
getting hold
of Nishida
of uh
Japan
and uh
he had
me going
up and
down
and uh
I just
I thought
wow
this guy
is amazing
you know
and uh
I'd never
fought
first time
I ever
fought
Japanese
in a
major
tournament
you know
and um
I felt
the danger
I always
talk about
the danger
when we
go out
to Japan
to train
uh
I could
go
probably
uh
months
without
getting
thrown
in
training
here
in
Europe
and
and
I go
to Japan
and you
know
everybody's
throwing
you you
know
and that's
difficult
to accept
and the
reason
that kind
of danger
and that
kind
of um
um
feeling
of danger
is something
that puts
a real
edge
on
you know
and uh
so that
was first
time
when I
got hold
of Nishida
I thought
oh my
god
you know
this guy
you know
it didn't
matter which
way he
was turning
like that
he'd be
stretched
out
and and
I thought
this uh
I want
to do
this
you know
and then
I ended
up fighting
him again
in Japan
so that
feeling of
danger
is really
interesting
like I've
uh
I've
you know
did Randori
with a lot
of world
class people
from different
parts of
the world
uh
including
Ilyas
Ilyas
and like
there's
certain parts
like eastern
european jido
you're
you feel like
you're screwed
the whole way
through
like uh
the gripping
you really feel
it in the gripping
it's the gripping
that does it
but in
with Japanese
like really good
Japanese
style jidoka
you don't
it's like
it's a terrifying
calmness
at least
the experiences
I've had
you don't really
feel it in the
gripping
you just feel
like anywhere
you step
you're getting
thrown
it's a different
it's a different
thing isn't it
it's a different
thing
so I mean
mine was
kind of a
mixture
I liked
it to be
a mixture
because um
there was um
the gripping
is definitely
the key point
so if you get
high level
guys that
are gripping
up and I
always used
to put this
to the
referees
um
when we were
doing referee
seminars
when we first
started them
and I'd say
uh
how many
because like
they would
referee
to their
understanding
of the
match
so they
were penalizing
for certain
grips that
were you know
and actually
so as an
ex-athlete
uh
high level
I would say
have you ever
gripped up
with high level
all right
because if you
haven't
you need to
do it
because then
you will
understand why
they do
certain things
with the
grips
because these
guys
are like
you know
when somebody
grips you
and you
think
you know
you're gonna
go
when Iliadis
puts his
arm over
your back
all right
and he
you know
you're gonna
go up
and over
you know
you're gonna
go over
you know
that's it
it's a cool
feeling
it's like
whenever
not for me
I understand
but it's like
I mean
because it's not
uh
it feels
way more
powerful than
it should
yeah
it's weird
I don't know
you want to
attribute it to
strength
and all that
kind of stuff
like people
say you have
like immense
upper body
strength
but it's
probably
something else
it's like
technique
it's some
kind of
weird
it's a mix
of
thing
just like
something
hardened
through lots
of battles
and that kind
of stuff
yeah
but it's cool
that humans
are able to
generate that
kind of power
it's cool
when I was
um
84 Olympics
but I'm just
gonna go there
now just
quickly
but um
there was um
we had a
freestyle wrestler
he's American
actually but he
had the English
um
uh
nationality
so he competed
for um
Noel Loban
his name is
and he competed
for Great Britain
he got third
place at the
Olympics
in 84
but he was
training uh
we were training
at Budokai
and he was
training
he came to do
some judo
and put jacket
on and of course
he was training
with some of the
lower levels
and he was really
handling himself
well
and then um
he said
I need to
feel
you know
he
when we did
randery
you know
so I
he did some
randery with
me
and uh
and I
immediately
thought
I gotta
catch it
I gotta
stop
single leg
and double
leg
because he
he was
really quick
right
so strong
as well
90 something
kilos
he was like
you know
he's a big
guy
so I
caught a
sleeve
immediately
caught
and controlled
him
and then
he couldn't
start
right
so
he said
I needed
to feel
the difference
so then
I thought
I better
reciprocate
this
so
I said
well
you know
so we
did the
randery
and I
threw him
a couple
of times
he said
I'm really
glad we
did that
so then
I said
I need
to feel
the difference
as well
so we
take the
jackets
off
so we
took
the
jackets
off
and he
was a
nightmare
this guy
was a
nightmare
and like
a monster
you know
he was like
single
legging
me
and you
know
it was
just
totally
different
you know
so
it was
like
the jacket
makes
a massive
difference
huge
difference
to
something
you know
and
people
think
it's
just
a
jacket
that
we're
wearing
but
it
isn't
it's
our
only
tool
actually
yeah
and it's
control
I mean
it's a
way of
establishing
control
of another
body
and it's
a whole
art form
and a
science
and I
don't even
know if
you understand
it really
you understand
it
subconsciously
through time
because
there's so much
involved
because pulling
on one part
of the jacket
pulls other parts
of the jacket
and the physics
of that is probably
insane
to understand
it's absolutely
insane
and then
you know
they changed
the rules
for a little
while
and they
changed
the rules
so that
you couldn't
hold
you know
that certain
grips
were not
allowed
only allowed
certain amount
of time
and there
were a lot
of penalties
from it
you know
and then
you know
they had
some of the
ex-fighters
into the
referee commission
and so we
were pushing
for
just let
them grip
you know
because that's
our game
you know
that's what
makes us
different
you know
again
if grip
up with
somebody
like
so they
were on
about
Teddy
Rene
Teddy
Rene
comes out
takes the
sleeve
big arm
over the
top
and then
you know
he throws
people
right
so
they were
saying
yeah
but
stop
you
can't
stop
him
doing
it
this
guy
is
six
foot
nine
and he
is
built
like
goth
you know
he's
like
and not
only that
he's
skillful
as well
you know
and he's
got that
mentality
of a
winner
he has
got that
mentality
of a
winner
there
he just
wins
important
matches
and he
goes over
the top
of the
grip
where's
that
land
now
in terms
of
rules
over
the
top
because
those
are
some
of
the
most
epic
awesome
types
of
grips
yeah
just
like
over
the
top
big
grab
yeah
well
as long
as they're
throw
from it
so they
can take
any
grip
as long
as you
move
them
and then
catch
them
kind
of
action
reaction
really
you know
as long
as you
catch
them
on
the
move
then
you
can
do
it
so
as long
as you're
not using
it to stall
or that
kind of
stuff
yeah
you can't
block out
yeah
so I mean
if I
so like
for example
if I've got
dominant grip
on you
and I just
block out
and I just
stop you
attacking me
so then what
I get you
three penalties
get you off
and you haven't
done an attack
so you've got to
stop that
you can't have
that
yeah
definitely
you were the
favorite to win
the 1984
Olympics
but you got
silver
I watched
that match
several times
you probably
having
have it
playing in
your head
so there
is a
nice change
of direction
by your
opponent
German
Frank
Winnicki
yeah
it was a
fake right
Uchimata
and then to
a left
drops
Sayunagi
how did
that loss
feel
devastating
is not
you know
it's not
enough really
because
you know
the strange
thing was
coming into
that Olympics
I was tired
really tired
so my
mental state
wasn't the
best
wasn't certainly
the same
as it was
coming into
the previous
and I
I remember
thinking I
just need to
get this over
with and then
I'm gonna have
a break
and just have
a rest
you know
and that's
totally the
wrong attitude
it's just
not good
for going
into an
Olympic Games
and so
I was
coming in
there with
a different
mindset
and I
remember
every match
that I had
I was
winning well
but I was
winning with
a struggle
you know
it was
it was
really not
I'd fought
Novak
and I was
pretty
of France
who was one
of the strongest
physically
that was in
the quarterfinals
I beat
Brett Barron
by an
Ippon
I arm
locked him
I won
my first
match by
Ippon as
well
and then
Michel Novak
I was
fighting
of France
and I was
lucky to
win it
I was up
I would
scored on
him
but I was
like starting
to defend
and just
everything that
I talked
to you about
you know
and then
just about
held on
and then
I won
and you
know
so him
and I
were talking
afterwards
like some
years afterwards
and he said
I was close
wasn't I
I was
yeah but
not close
enough
I didn't
mean it
but I had
to say it
right
of course
of course
and no
he was
right
you know
and it
was
one of
those
so it's
through to
the semifinal
I fought
Lesak
in the
semifinal
of
and I'd
fought him
in the
semifinal
of the
worlds
as well
I'd
never
gone
time
with
him
you know
I'd
never
I'd
always
beaten
him
fairly
easily
and
with
by
upon
and
that
went
time
so I
was
you know
I was
just
glad to
get it
done
and I
was in
the
final
then
against
Frank
Vinecker
of
Germany
and I'd
beaten
Vinecker
before
but he
was just
a young
German
coming
through
and
when I
started
the
final
I
was
I
thought
right
I've
just
and I
started
all my
techniques
just that
little bit
off
nothing
was
coordinated
just
it was
just
I can't
really
explain
why
it was
just a
little
bit
off
I see
it so
often
now
with
a lot
of
the
guys
that
are
going
for
second
third
Olympic
games
and
I
see
their
technique
just
not
quite
there
and
they're
struggling
and
I
know
what
they're
going
through
and
I
kind
of
empathize
with
them
it felt
like you
were
dominating
that
final
I
dominated
it
yeah
I
was
winning
and
actually
if it
had
got another
minute
and a
half
it
would
have
been
all
over
and
I
would
have
been
Olympic
champion
and
it
would
have
been
done
he
wouldn't
have
batted
an
eyelid
right
because
he
would
have
fought
me
really
really
well
and
he
would
have
you know
we
talked
about
it
afterwards
and
he
said
he
was
just
my
good
day
for
me
you know
and
he
knows
he
was
very
respectful
this
guy
is
very
respectful
he
was
surprised
almost
I
mean
not
almost
he
was
very
surprised
and
celebrating
like
a
surprise
jumping
up
and
down
like
you
know
he
just
and
you
can
look at
that
can't
you
go
well
it
wasn't
Ipon
but
you
know
would
I
got
it
back
I
don't
know
but
I
think
that
actually
taking
the
pressure
off
because
that
was
another
thing
as
well
pressure
of
being
favorite
you
know
and
I
see
that
with
a
lot
of
them
and
big
tournament
and
he'll
win
it
the
tragedy
of
the
Olympic
Games
I
mean
you
were
the
favorite
and
just
like
that
like
split
moment
you
lost
it
split
moment
devastating
and
lived
it
probably
not
every
day
but
you
know
Nikki
my
wife
will
tell
you
that
woken
up
in
sweats
and
you
know
and
I
think
they
contributed
as well
because
I
had
a
period
of
my
life
after
where
I
was
drinking
too
much
and
you
know
and
I
think
kind
of
when
I
look
back
kind
of
led
into
that
kind
of
dark
period
of
my
life
you
know
and
I
never
ever
ever
you
know
did
it
go
through
my
mind
anything
else
but
it
definitely
affected
me
and
I
was
on
a
downward
kind
of
spiral
in
a
lot
of
different
ways
and
would
still
even
you know
we
have
an
amazing
marriage
and
we
have
amazing
family
and
everything's
great
but I
still
wake up
sometimes
and I'll
say
I've
just
dreamt
you know
that
and
it's
the same
reoccurring
dream
where I'm
trying to
get somewhere
and I'm
trying to
put it
right
you know
and I've
got
this
chance
of
putting
this
Olympic
final
right
you know
in this
dream
I've
got a
chance
to
doing
but
I
can't
get
there
and
the
traffic
stopping
me
or
something
stops
me
and
I
you know
and then
I wake
up
and I'm
sweating
and you
think
well after
all this
time
that's
not
possible
but it
is
and it
happens
yeah
I mean
in the
match
itself
there's
that
feeling
for me
just
watching
it
like
you're
going
for
throws
you're
almost
getting
there
with
the
throws
and
it's
almost
like
he's
going
for
a
kind
of
crappier
jimata
and
then
you're
just
like
you're
stopping
you're
blocking
it
and
all
sudden
I
mean
that's
the
beauty
of
the
Olympics
he
finds
it
in
himself
to
switch
yeah
in that
like
against
a
favorite
against
sort
of
the
great
British
judoka
just
finds
the
perfect
drop
seonagi
well
you know
his
team
doctor
and
coach
he
came up
to me
afterwards
and said
I'm
just
really
sorry
and
that's
all
they
said
is
I'm
just
really
sorry
they
were
sorry
because
you know
obviously
the obvious
sadness
about that
you know
and
and
of
course
everybody
takes
their
you know
I
went
actually
two
and a
was it
three weeks
later
the
German
Open
so he
had to
compete
in the
German
Open
three
weeks
later
so I
went
over
to fight
him
and
and beat
him in the
final of the
German
and it
didn't do
anything
for me
because it
was a
much tighter
match
he was a
lot closer
he had a
lot more
confidence
coming in
so he
fought me
a lot
differently
and then
it was
me
pulling
it
back
and
just
managing
to win
in the
final
and I
thought
well
that might
appease
it appeased
nothing
didn't do
anything
when you
give your
whole life
to judo
just
and
your love
of winning
that's crazy
how much
the Olympic
Games
mean
it
means
so much
and I
think
you know
but I
I've
got to
and I've
got to
say this
and this
is honestly
you know
if it
meant
that if I
had won
that Olympic
Games
and it
had to
change my
life
into a
different
direction
which I
probably
would have
not competed
in the
88 Olympic
Games
then
all right
so if it
had changed
my life
and then I
didn't have
I didn't
meet my
wife
and I
you know
didn't have
my family
that I've
got now
there's
no
you know
I would
I wouldn't
swap that
what I've
got now
for anything
well
part of the
demons that
you've gotten
to know
because of
those losses
is part of
probably the
central reason
that made you
the man you
are
a legend
of the sport
you could
have been
not
that
because an
Olympic gold
is just an
Olympic gold
yeah
and it is
isn't it
you know
and I
think that
there's a lot
of Olympic
champions
and world
champions
that
win
and then
are forgotten
and I
said to
Nikki
I said
my wife
I said
I don't
want to be
forgotten
and I
want to
be remembered
so I'm
going to
do anything
anything I
do if
I'm going
to do
commentary
or whatever
it is
a coaching
I want
to do
coaching
to a
high level
and I
want to
commentate
at a
high level
I remember
the first
commentary
I ever
did it
was terrible
and I
just thought
I've got
to do
better than
this
and I
thought I
need to
do it
well
and I've
got to
do it
professionally
so in
the book
A Game
of Throws
you have a
chapter titled
lessons and
losing
so what are
some of the
lessons here
what are some of
the deeper
lessons you've
pulled out of
losing
I think
great champions
are made
up of
the people
that handle
it in the
right way
and you
could say
well I
don't like
losing
and you
could throw
your dummy
out the
pram and
you can
be a bad
loser in
front of
everybody
and actually
people pick
up on that
very very
quickly
you know
what it's
like in
broadcasting
right
somebody
has a
bad word
to say
about
somebody
but actually
the ones
that endear
themselves to
you are the
ones that
handle it in
the right way
the correct way
doesn't mean
that you've
got to like
it I
didn't like
it and
I thought
that I
handled it
certainly in
later years
in the right
way and I
like to see
athletes do it
in the right
way you know
and I think
that's it's a
make or break
situation it's
not all the
contests they
win it's the
one that they
lose and then
how they pick
themselves up and
handle themselves
after so I
think that that
is a big one
for me and
also I mean
I I went
through you
know obviously
a later
divorce and
that was
difficult on
my son really
difficult on
Ashley and
then I was
and I think
that some of
that was the
fact that I
was you know
kind of I
wasn't drinking
all the time
but I was
drinking in
excess at the
wrong times you
know and I
think that that's
what a lot of
people do
sometimes is
that they
use it for
the wrong
reasons you
know and I
I used to
hear it I
still I hear
it now all
the time you
know and it's
that you know I
need to knock
the edge off and
I need need to
just forget and I
need to you know
and you need to be
in a fuzzy place
for a while and I
had a lot of time
in fuzzy place and I
needed to get rid
of that you know
and I needed to
clear my head
where was that
place
some of the
lower
points in your
life that you've
reached mentally
I think you know
definitely you know
the fact that
my marriage
first marriage
didn't work
you know and
that was
you know it's a
mix of things
that you know
between us
and and then
you know so
that's not where
I wanted to be
at the time
and the effects
that it had on
my son and it
took a long time
for him then
to come around
and to trust me
again you know
and and to
have belief
he always had
belief in me
but to trust me
again and then
I think that
that was low
and and I think
that you know
when I look back
is that a lot
of my bad decisions
were when I was
in that fuzzy
kind of haze
and that it got
progressively worse
that got progressively
worse
to the degree
where it was
you know
trying to hide it
and trying to
hide how much
and I was
kind of a
functioning
kind of
drunk
you know
I think you could
probably say that
and I you know
I was functioning
I was still able
to I was still
training most days
crazily enough
you know
I was training
to kind of mask
it and cover it
and that was probably
my savior
that I was still
you know
because I remember
I said to my wife
I said to Nikki
I'm probably the fittest
if I'm you know
a drunk
then I'm a fittest
drunk in the world
she said
yeah you probably
are actually
you know
I was in great
condition for a drunk
so the the fuzzy
haze
where was your mind
did you have
periods of depression
I had periods
of depression
I can honestly
say that my
depression wasn't
that bad
although I did
you know when
it's like anything
that gives you an up
you know
it gives you a
an even bigger down
doesn't it
you know
and and
so I hated
that feeling
and also
hated myself
for letting it happen
because I
I have got this really
it's a bizarre
I don't know
whether you can
call it a power
but I have the
ability to be able
to say
stop
and I
I can just
and that's what I did
in the end
in the end
there was an incident
when I was working
for Belgium
judo
and there was an incident
it was Christmas
it was the
I tell you exactly
the day
it was 20th of December
and
me and a
Belgian coach
we got
absolutely hammered
but we were at
the wrong place
and he got noticed
and
and
so
I remember
they they pulled me up
in front of this board
and
I looked down
at these guys
and half of them
were people
I didn't want to be
in that situation
with you know
they're not people
that I respected
and they're not people
that I trusted
so
I said
if you're going to
sack me
sack me
but
I'll promise you now
that I will just
this is it
I'll stop
I'm just going to stop
I've decided
on the way back
in the car
I rang
Nikki up
my wife
and I said
whatever you hear now
whatever
I'm just going to stop
so
that was it
stopped
you just
saw the moment
and said
stop
stop
so
that fuzzy place
what advice
could you give
to people
about
how to overcome
that
that dark place
the depression
whether it has to do
with drinking or not
I think
if it's to do
with drinking
all I can say
is
is that
the
two days
or a week
into not drinking
you'll feel different
you know
it'll make a physical
difference
and
you'll like
that
physical
difference
and then
from a mental
perspective as well
because I think
that
you know
you have a massive
downer
you know
and I
think that
that must
be because of
drugs as well
because I had a
situation with
my brother
you know
he was like
you know
professional wrestling
and
the drugs
was an element
there
and you know
so I'd never
touched a drug
or even seen
one in my life
but
you know
I'd let the
alcohol side
go too far
and then
decided never
to do that
so
then I guess
I had people
ringing me up
you know
saying you know
how
how can
we stop
you know
so
when they say
can I have a word
can I discuss
something with you
and I know
then
what they want
to discuss
with me
you know
and the thing
is that
I would say
you know
if you stop
then feel
the effects
of it
and it will
make a difference
to your everyday
life
and that
will make
a massive
difference
and I think
about anybody
who kind of
you know
is down
all the time
is to find
the cause
of what's
pushing you down
you know
what I mean
and try
and attack
that
I mean
because it's
never
somebody once
said to me
they said
whatever you got
you know
we've
got something
special
I mean
we have
a great
life
and
I've had
a great
competition
record
you know
it could have
been better
but it was
great
but I've
had
success
with my
business
and we're
still out
there
and we have
a great
life
we travel
all the
world
and you
know
there's
people out
there
that would
live in
your house
at the
drop of a hat
wherever you
are
they drive
your car
you know
no matter
what car
it is
some people
haven't got
a car
you know
and whatever
food you're
having and you're
moaning about
food right
that somebody
out there
that would
take that
and gladly
eat that
all right
so there's
always somebody
worse off
than you
and I think
that we tend
to sometimes
you know
look at the
things that
we haven't
got rather
than the
things we
have got
yeah
it's a
skill
probably
to be
grateful
for the
things you
have
exactly
as you
said
in this
sometimes
the little
things
like
food
and
cars
and all
that kind
of stuff
just to have
gratitude
for
and family
all this
kind of
stuff
but it's
still
you know
having talked
to a bunch
of Olympic
athletes
there is
a
you know
when you
give so much
of your
life to
winning
and then
you lose
sometimes
even when
you win
but
when you
lose
at the
very top
it's a
tough
tough
like
tough
thing
to go
through
the most
difficult
thing
I think
for anybody
is when
they have
to decide
when to
stop
yeah
yeah
you know
and
all of a
sudden
and I
I see
the ones
that are
going
second
Olympic
games
and then
third
Olympic
and
and the
ones
that are
there
and they're
holding
on
and they're
in their
30s
now
different
to when
they were
19 years
of age
you know
30
something
is different
to 19
and then
what are you
going to do
afterwards
you know
and then
how do you
become
just a
normal
person
you're
never
going to
be a
normal
person
as such
but I
think
you've
got to
do
normal
things
you know
and then
you've
got
I
remember
the
first
time
when I
finished
competition
I had
good
sponsors
this was
you know
40 years
ago
but I
had two
really good
vitamin
company
and also
judogi
company
and I
had a
car
and you
know
I had
money
I just
and I
was going
all over
the world
I was
successful
and then
I stopped
and they
took everything
back
they took
my car
and they
did it
within two
weeks as
well
they stopped
my funding
they you
know
and the
vitamin
company
said
thank you
very much
it's been
a great
you know
we've
done well
bye
bye bye
this was
after your
last
olympics
88 olympics
yeah
you know
when that
finished
and then
that was
it
you know
and then
it's
right
okay
first time
I had
to go
in there
and buy
a track
suit
and a
pair
of training
shoes
yeah
wow
yeah
those are
different
sitting there
in the
evening
by yourself
so you
go from
seven days
a week
or six
days a
week
going
into
the
gym
and you
know
you're
working
out
the
dojo
and then
you don't
have to
do it
you know
and that's
why
you get
a lot
of
when they
finish
competition
they finish
that 30
to 40
it's still
I mean
Ilias is
still doing
it now
he's still
in there
and he's
still
you know
because he
can
right
okay
and
it's
natural
and I
did
exactly
the same
and then
like I
say
you just
get to
an age
and you
just
think
well
I'm
just
going
to
kind
of
take
a
step
back
which
is
why
like
there's
certain
athletes
like
Rio
Kotani
never
stops
it
just
dominates
for
14
years
probably
one of
the
winningest
athletes
in Judo
yeah
seven time
world champ
two time
Olympic champ
medaled
at five
Olympics
so it's
always
impressive
never
stopped
never
stopped
so that's
an option
if you're
like the
greatest
ever
it'd be
interesting
wouldn't it
just to see
what they're
doing
now
you know
because at
some stage
you have
to get a
normal
you do
have to
stop
you do
have to
stop
you know
at some
stage
you have
to decide
what you're
going to
do
you know
and we
you know
it's either
into coaching
the Judo
is either
to coaching
or if you're
not in
coaching
then it's
into
something to
do with
the media
and you
know I
was lucky
that I
it was just
by accident
really with
the commentary
somebody said
would you do
a voiceover
so I did
this voiceover
and that was
back in
1982
I did that
so you've
been
commentating
since
1982
I did
some
voiceovers
I wouldn't
call it
commentating
but I did
some voiceovers
and then I
did some
we did
some different
European
championships
world championship
kind of
events
and I did
the voiceovers
for it
and the way
that it was
done
that it
was more
narration
and so it
kind of
turned into
then somebody
asked me to
do an event
and when
you listen
to the
intonation
of the
voice
and stuff
like that
it wasn't
like it
is now
but I
guess that's
just something
that developed
as a you know
because then it
was coming
from the
heart
and I
you know
started to
get excited
and just
do my
thing
and it
was just
me
really
just my
style
well I
listened to
your commentary
from a
while back
I don't
know if
it's
the 80s
but it's
still there
I think
it's timing
as well
isn't it
it's like
you know
you get your
timing a bit
better
and know
when to
go in
when to
come out
when to
say something
when not
you know
and I
think that
in the
early days
I tended
to think
I tended
to want
to talk
all the
time
and you
don't have
to do
that
also knowing
when to
shut up
that's the
key isn't
it
yeah part
of the
dramas
and the
silence
building up
to the
to the
to the
set up
and the
throw
and all
that kind
of stuff
but also
you're
very good
at
while
radiating
passion
being very
precise
and specific
about the
details of
the throw
and the
set up
and why
something
worked and
didn't
so
yeah I think
I think
there's two
kinds of
commentating
you can
commentate
what you
see
and then
you commentate
what
people can't
see you know
and so if
you've got
somebody that
is not
really understanding
of what's
happening in
the inner
part of the
game
so it
might be a
technical
thing or
it might be
the tactical
part of the
play here
that's going
on
and if you
can introduce
that as
well
then you've
got an
advantage
quick pause
I need a
breath and
break
okay
good stuff
so we just
took a little
break and
went to
judotv.com
which is I
guess an
IGF website
and IGF is
the organization
behind a lot
of the big
judo events
in the world
and I just
signed up
you should
sign up
too
it's great
absolutely
sign up
cheaper the
price
cheaper the
price
yeah
and you
can watch
basically any
match from
the grand
slams and
go back
through history
I guess
yeah I've
got to say
like I mean
everybody
still people
saying to
me oh you
know we
need more
judo on
television
they've got
judo on
television
every other
week that
they can
access all
of the top
people in
all the top
events and
it costs
a hundred
dollars a
year you
know it's
to access
everything and
they can
play all
the videos
I mean we've
just accessed
this here
the Paris
tournament and
we're gonna have
a look at
Teddy Rene
but you know
it's it's so
it's cheap at
the price
so we're now
in Paris Grand
Slam 2024
Teddy Rene
final by the
way super cool
like you click
on the draw
and you can
just look at
any of the
matches
go to the
bottom of the
finals you can
go
yeah to
any one
any one of
them that's
so cool
that's really
well done
really well
done interface
anyway let me
first ask the
ridiculous big
question who do
you think is the
greatest of all
time
Teddy Rene
in the writing
he's the
greatest judo
winner of all
time of that
there's no doubt
you know I mean
he is the and I
think if you asked
him whether he
was the greatest
judo man in the
world of all
time he would
say no I'm
not you know
and he's not
the greatest
judo man there
are people with
you know more
beautiful judo in
some ways although
he's got great
technique but he
is the ultimate
winner
10 time world
champ
yeah
two time gold
medalist in the
Olympics I guess
two time bronze
medalist he's
probably going is
he's going to
Paris yeah
he's going after
it again so he's
right here I mean
he's right there you
know this is just a
couple of months
ago and then last
week this last week
he was out again
and he won again
you think he gets
gold medal this
time there's people
getting closer to
him right because
he's obviously you
know he's age wise
and the amount of
time that he's been
there he's obviously
somebody that is
starting not quite at
his best as he was
when he was younger
but he like I say
he still puts it on
the line he lays it
on the line every
single time and
then not only does
he lay it on the
line but he beats
them all you know
and last week he
just beat Saito who
was a young up and
coming Japanese
fighter and he beat
him in the final it
was close and he did
well there are certain
people the smaller
ones actually not the
taller ones because
like you know we're
saying about the big
arm over the top that
he likes and the
dominant grip that he
likes there are people
that can give him a
hard time now if at
the Olympic Games he
has two or three of
those on the trot it
might work against him
you know and it's by
no means an absolute
certainty that he's
going to win the
Olympic gold medal but
he's got to be one of
the favorites top
favorite you know no
matter what happens
now Teddy Renner is
is the greatest winner
that you know and if
you asked the great
Yamashita he would say
the same you know if
there's nobody that's
you know and Yamashita
was unbeaten in
international competition
and I trained with
Yamashita a lot over a
two-year period and got
to know him quite well
and he was one of the
greatest of all times
you know for me was one
of the greatest judo
men and I'm talking
about from a technical
point of view from a
spectacular judo point
of view understanding
the fundamental principles
of how techniques work
sometimes having you
know different techniques
that work for you you
know so if one doesn't
work and and one
particular direction
doesn't work you can
change the direction
completely in case people
don't know Yamashita is
this legendary judoka
heavyweight Teddy
Renner heavyweight
that's plus 100 kg so
he he would have caused
him all sorts of
problems oh yeah that
would that's a cool who
do you think wins
Yamashita yes I think
Yamashita but you know
you think Yamashita
would be Teddy Renner
I think so strong words
you think so you think
so Yamashita is on the
shorter side right yeah
and he he finds it more
difficult with shorter
people you know and so
it was it would have been
a very interesting
confrontation and I think
if you asked Yamashita
he would probably say you
know that Teddy Renner he's
very gracious he's really
gracious it would be
really good it would have
been a an unbelievable
matchup and I and I've
got to say this that you
know Teddy Renner is the
greatest winner of all time
competition wise so it's
interesting both of them
maybe you can correct me but
have this Osotogari which is
kind of a trip that I never
understood yeah like it's a
it's a very tricky thing to
do right it's very easy to
do maybe as a white belt
you roll in you can
understand but like to do
it at the high high high
level you see any of the
top guys now especially if
they're second time out you
know so like they might
catch somebody by surprise
they come out they go bang
oh and you go that was
amazing right but if they
fought again 10 minutes
later you go you're not
going to catch me with that
right you got a different
situation here and and so
it's slightly different but
the best fighters adapt
like that and they're able
to see a situation feel the
situation and they attack
once and then go again and
attack second third time and
in the third time they make
it work yeah both Yamashita
and Teddy Renner with the
Osotogari they'll just like
hit it over and over in the
match yeah sometimes it'll hit
first time and it won't go and
then you make a readjustment
of the way in it's a little
bit like I mean if you take
him a really easy way of
understanding it is if we're
shooting at a target and all
of a sudden you start moving
that target you know it's
different hitting a moving
target but it's also different
hitting a moving target that's
trying to hit you as well and
that's our game right so we're
not only trying to throw a
moving target we're trying to
throw a moving target that's
trying to throw us so it makes
it even more difficult yeah
there's a there's a few
folks who you know what's
coming it's like over and
over and over it's the same
attack uh anyway with this
Uchimata it's like it's
different it's different and
there's not many people like
that where it's like this the
same attack I mean there's
other attacks also but they'll
just go after the same thing
over and over and over when I
watch great athletes most of
them can throw over both
flanks not always going left
and right you know although
our sport always I mean the
cat is are always demonstrated
left and right so like if you
demonstrate if you do something
on one one side you know then
can you demonstrate it on the
other side right okay so can you
do it equally no but you do it
differently right on the other
side so you know when I'm
teaching I I don't teach left and
right I teach so if I was
teaching you to do a technique
first thing I'd do is say I
need you to take the sleeve
and lapel all right so I'd let
you decide what was left and
right okay because often what
happens is we impart on people
whether they're going to be
left or right when we start
teaching you know you get a lot
of teachers do that all right
and they'll say immediately are
you what do you write with left
or right hand and it's no
indicator actually as to how we
do judo because I'm left-handed
and I do more predominantly
right-handed because I lead off
my strongest hand and actually
most people do you know so
actually left and right is a bit
of a trap sometimes you know when
we're teaching better to get you
know because we can go so my
point was is that a lot of people
can go both flanks so they'll do
something over this side and
something over this side but
anyway it was one-sided he was
one-sided but he could he could
switch it so he had a Sienagi as
well on the other side so he could
switch it if he had to yeah and
by the way your opponent in 84 was
he righty or lefty he was a righty so
that drop left yeah where did that
come from well I mean again it was you
know he could have probably in other
contests he'd hit me with it several
times and I just stopped it you know
and just at the wrong place at the
right time for him right place in the
wrong time for me right that's life
you know yeah all right let's let's
watch some tight over there
this is final of Paris tournament and
this is against the Korean the Korean
had had a great day actually
again shorter again shorter so he does
find that difficult have a look at
Teddy Rene
Teddy Rene will try and catch the
sleeve and he's after the sleeve and
then the right arm over the top that's
the key point for Teddy Rene
and of course what he what he has done
if he can't always catch the big oh so
to Gary over his right hand side he's
been doing something to the opposite
side and the Korean just went for a drop
sale and Teddy Rene block with the hips
he's like I say he has difficulty always
against somebody smaller dropping with
the sea and aggies has Teddy Rene ever
been thrown for a pawn I've never seen
thrown for a pawn but he was thrown last
week for a nice technique and he's being
caught more and more so it's getting
close yeah and to say of in the final of
the world championships they had a strange
situation there where to say of was a
was a technique down and then pulled off a
a counter and they didn't count it but
then they over overruled it unfortunately
I was commentating at the time and I I
went for a score for the for to say of
and anyway they overruled it and then they
awarded a second gold medal to say of
what can you say about Tamerlan
Besheyev who also gave him trouble yeah
Besheyev and to say of the two that could
possibly go to the Olympics so that was a
close one there from Rene that was
closest that he'd actually been oh wow
so didn't have the sleeve and he relies
on the sleeve greatly big support there
and the French in the crowd and also
maybe can you explain the penalties for
for stalling yeah so if if they don't
attack if they've got a grip and they've
got sleeve lapel or they got two hands on
if they're too passive and they don't
attack if they've got dominant sleeve grip
they don't attack that was quite close as
well from the Korean so the Korean here
you can see is having a real go you know
the penalties will come if they don't
attack at the right time step outside the
yellow area they'll get penalized as well
that uh that's dedication for absolutely I
mean it was really close wasn't it a nice
little coach Gary there from the Korean and
if they touch below the belt line with the
arms so if they can they're not allowed to
grab the legs they've stopped grabbing the
legs wow the Korean is really going at
Koreans having a real good uh go at it I
guess every single person in that division
is probably training for Teddy Rene right you
think that Teddy Rene has been there a long
time you know he's got another guy here in
the final of the Paris tournament he's got
uh 18,000 people watching him they're all on
Teddy Rene's side they want him to win and the
Koreans out there on his own with his coach but
also the pressure that on Teddy Rene
amazing pressure you know we we interviewed him
after this and uh he said I've got pressure you
know people go well is he going to do it at the
Olympic Games can I do it in Paris he wanted to
go to Paris I mean really I mean the last
Olympic Games should have been it shouldn't
they the last should have been the uh final
one but he's gone no I've got to do another
four years two penalties are on the board
already for the Korean that Korean is really
having a great go he's got a little a bit of a
lift on him he's going after it he's really
going after it you know it's a it's an
amazing uh effort there from the Korean and uh
he's getting some last minute uh information I
don't know if you've ever seen his coach
stood next to him like that but uh it's
amazing I mean six foot six and he's he's
about uh four foot six he's a he's a real
pitch full of passion I love it yeah he's
like screaming so uh golden score how does
golden score work can you say so the golden
score so if it goes without any point on the
board from a throw or a hold down uh or arm
lot strangle uh then it goes into golden score
so two Shidos on the board a piece one more
mistake now and it's going to be all over
oh wow and that's it he uh Teddy Rene
just manages to turn it uh on the Korean and
that went really against the run of play didn't
it yeah because the Korean did better you know
but you know Teddy Rene is a winner yeah and
he says right okay let's have more uh more
cheering finds a way to uh to score in the
and I have to say you know that even when he
loses you know he's always graceful yeah he
doesn't like it but he's graceful yeah there
is so much love there celebration is great it's
great to see it's great that he's doing it
again going after it chasing the gold medal
again well he's chasing the gold medal it's
going to be in Paris which is going to be uh
even you know more fantastic you know he's
already the greatest you said you know what is
he going to do to to be the greatest or
already the greatest competitor judo's ever
known and that was even you know with um with
um the great uh Tani you know so Tani was
amazing as well are you part of the
commentating team for Paris I'm part of the
commentating team but it won't be for IJF
because it's independent broadcast have you
ever had an athlete uh sort of come up to
you and and ask like why why'd you say that or
like disagree with your commentary do you
know I've got to say that 99 percent 99.9
percent of everybody is so grateful that I've
commentated their fights all the way through
yeah they know if they've messed up so if I
say something and I'm never disparaging really
disparaging you know but what I will say is
you know it was a great throw by the other
guy or it was a great match and if they made a
mistake so if they walk out they know that um I
will say something that will um you know mean
something so then nobody really moans about it I
I try and talk the truth if I can so uh who else
would you consider as as some of the greats so I
I personally just because I love the standing
Sanagi Koga so there's like you know the number of
times you won the world championships and the
Olympic games but there's also like how you won
and how you wanted to fight and what you did you
know it's not necessarily about getting gold medals it's
about how you fought and how you represent the sport
and there's certain athletes like anyway and
Iliadis that are going after the big throws
only after they don't want to win by Ipon you know
and I think that that that is the difference is
they're the ones that come out there and it's a bit
like you know when when Tyson stepped out there you
you knew what you were going to get you know and and if
they went toe to toe if if you if Tyson had
somebody going toe to toe somebody was going to get
knocked out and you know we got the same in judo when
people go head to head and it's an open match and I
often talk about an open match I say um they're they're
it's an open match they're both trying to score
somebody is going to get scored on somebody's going to
go you know and that's that makes it exciting and it's
when when they come out and they close up you know then
that's not an exciting match is there a case for uh for
ono Shohei ono three-time world champ two-time gold
medalist I think that you know judo wise he's got to be one of the
greatest because he had such versatility um he had uh he could go
right and he could go left he could pick up he could go to the
ground as well he won a lot of his earlier matches on the ground
um I think his uh empathy uh you know and how he presents himself
sometimes he falls down and uh I think that hopefully that should come
with uh tutoring and you know how to how to be a great
champion after you know it's not just about what you do
on the mat but what you do off the mat as well
to you a great champion is the whole package of
yeah how you present yourself when you lose how you
represent yourself just yeah I think it's how you present yourself
afterwards how you are with people how much you can help people I mean
people kids uh and um you know they look up to these great champions
because they want to be like them uh so the worst thing is when you get
somebody that's a bit of an arse and they're and they're not
presenting themselves in the right way so I like to see somebody presenting
themselves in the right way and I think that it's something that can be
taught it's something that normally comes with a little bit of experience
a little bit of age you know and I like to think that I'm
a little bit different now than I was when I was 19
not that I was bad you know I just think I was just uh you know
I see it often now you know just full of full of beans
you're you're a beautiful work in progress uh what about Nomura
that I hear in Nomura that's three-time gold medalist
never lost an olympic fight so there's there's nobody right yeah no nobody
ever done that you know what I mean so that's got to be it has to stand he took
two years off in between every olympic games and came
back did the right amount of events to qualify for
not only did he having to qualify he had to qualify through
japan now japan remember have got the greatest depth
so they got people coming through all the time
you know and they and then he had to win the japanese trials
i mean we had a four-time world champion from japan
uh this is when world championships was every other year
and this is shozo uh shozo fuji um and he was the greatest middleweight of all
time uh and never got to to participate in
the olympics because he lost the japanese trials
twice in two olympic uh you know uh possibilities
so um you know he had to qualify for japan
and then go to the olympic games and then do it there you know so
sometimes some of the best people in japan can't get outside of japan
look at the situation they had with um abe and then they had um mariyama
mariyama was uh you know and abe were both
the best by far in the under 66 kilos category
this is for the last olympic games and um they sent one to the world championships
one to the olympic games and they both won gold medals you know
yeah yeah i mean that's why the uh the all japan championships is like legendary
but there's these battles yeah with dimash and all of them
well abe and um and mariyama they they had a trials in the kodokan
uh it was 20 26 minutes i think it was 26 minutes it went they were battling it out
26 minutes that's great if we can just go to you've trained in japan
what are those randoris like what what's that training like
um i touched on the danger that danger of being thrown when you get hold of
somebody or somebody gets hold of you and i often reflect i often talk about it
when i'm commentating you know because i can see immediately
you know it's easy isn't it you know we're in the commentary chair
or if you're in the coach's chair and you don't really understand
totally absolutely what's going on when you're being
somebody's being out gripped and when they're in danger of being thrown i mean
you know if you're in danger of being thrown the first thing you do is
stick your backside out and defend but you know by not being in the position they
they want you to be in all right and so that's danger you know you feel the
danger and so in japan that was the place i
used to go to train because i felt the danger and so my defenses
would be heightened and so somebody that was i went to
two years one one olympic cycle i went two years
two months without having a score on me
in any competition and then i went to one competition
in the european championships which i won and i was struggling
all the way through it and got scored on
three times in my pool of you like my first pool of fights
and i was devastated i and i actually nearly lost the whole competition
because i was more mortified about being scored on
three times when i hadn't been scored on for two and a half years i had this
thing in my head about two and a half years i've like
you know and and then all of a sudden right i'm not unbeatable and then you
just you and you go and i i was almost lost it
completely lost it just so fortunate a couple of things went my way and
just came out and i scraped and scratched my way to the final and won the
final well all right but that was my best
match but uh i almost lost it well what do you do with the fact if you
go to japan and you're getting you're saying danger like you're probably
getting thrown getting thrown yeah and what does that
do to your ego well again it's my you know that that was a winning ego
that had to adapt uh i remember we went to the case joe which police dojo one time
and um they wanted to see they uh they created this uh the groundwork competition
because they wanted to see my me do the juji
like how i went in and how i yeah how the arm bar right they wanted to see how i did
it from underneath or over the top and you just
so they created this event studied the creature yeah they started it so
and then winner stays on competition was happening at the case joe
so i did about seven i think seven in and then
my coach came in and said no it's finished that's it now it's finished you know
suddenly we realized what was going on and i was going no
no no no don't stop it like that you know
and um and it was one of those uh moments where
you know the the boot was on my foot you could say you know rather than the
other side the other way because i had been to japan uh in
situation i remember as as a 16 year old i i got such uh i i got such a
a drumming um from uh one of the japanese guys older
students and he had a gold tooth and um
so he was gold tooth to me you know and he was my nightmare
and um i i remember kept coming out to fight him
because he kept throwing me and and i was crying and i was upset and i was
like and then that was another occasion where
i got dragged away and i said no and so i wanted to go back and fight him
and i went back to the same dojo every year
to fight him he was on my mind morning noon night
he was on my mind gold tooth was on my mind
you know and uh two years later i i was two years to me from 16 to 18 was
totally different 18 years of age i was pretty competitive
with him and uh it was like you know i was standing up with him
19 he was in the groundwork competition
and that's when the switch happened switch happened you know because i just
well because i remember getting the arm lock and and
he didn't put it on immediately i needed it to last
it had to last sure so i i spread the whole thing lasted as long as i could
possibly get it and it was a long memory yeah as i was looking down at him
and now and now he has nightmares about you now i wonder what nickname he has for you
i don't know i'm hoping that he remembers me as
he has a photo of you you know he probably
doesn't say it just back an eyelid doesn't say a thing about it
well i mean can you just speak to that training with those
folks you know you said crying
just the frustration of being thrown yeah i mean what what how do you it's such a
beautiful part of the process of becoming
great yeah i think i think it is just something that you're
you know that doesn't happen at this level you know we were talking about levels
and then at this level it never happened and then i went out
in my first european cadet and and all of a sudden i wasn't the
this top guy i was in the mix and then i had to work myself to the top of that
mix and then to the top of the next one you know
because i went to the european senior championships
and you know again you're not the top and you know you work your way to the top of
that and and i think it is a frustration you
know but i think it's that kind of hatred of losing
and and also um being out of control
i think that the first time first senior european championships i fought
i fought nevzorov but he was only one of my contests then i had to fight
a frenchman for third place but he totally outgripped me
and um and i remember i was more upset though i won the contest
i was more upset that he totally out he did outgrip me and and i was more upset
and then i fought him a year later and outgripped him all right so it was um it
was one of those you know it was a learning process all the way through
yeah that like frustration is like whatever that does to your your soul
the building up afterwards is what actually makes you better
it's fascinating and you think there's in japan just killers there they're like
just the world doesn't know about they just just yeah there's world champions
in the dojo you know there's people that never make it out
yeah you know i remember we were training like so
and everybody that's um that goes to japan
all my uh friends my that have been world olympic champions right
they all know what i'm talking about they know exactly who i'm
what i'm saying is that when we go to the dojos there
we all get thrown by people that never come out to be world champions you know
they're they're just in the mix or they're going through three years of
university and then they go we we had a guy yeah we had a guy that came in
he came he was business guy he came in his suitcase and his briefcase like that
he's got a tie up like that and he's kind so he decides he's going to come in
and he he gets changed and he's he's in his uh lunch hour he's in his lunch hour right so
gotta be quick yeah so he comes in and he goes through he's working his way through the whole of
the british team we're all lined up right yeah he's just working his way through the whole of
the british team and i know it's my turn next so and his lunch so i i get hold of him and i throw
him immediately and then it was what we were talking about when it happens in the first few
a few seconds of the the the practice so then i had four minutes of him coming at me and i'm going
up into the air and i'm twisting off and i'm like that and then like everybody's laughing at the side
of the map or the whole british team he's gone through the whole british team and then he 10
minutes later he's just tying his tie up like that you know and back to work like that you know imagine
him sitting behind his desk in his computer yeah yeah yeah i'm glad he didn't get out
um hopefully he listens to this hopefully anybody else i didn't mention as part of the greats that
just kind of jumped um kashuizaki uh sensei is is the uh the my favorite of all favorites he is uh what i
would call a judo uh genius i don't know if you can get him up here can we get him up yeah so go
into 1981 world championships and uh and i'll talk you through the great kashuizaki he was one year
uh in great britain and he was uh he was a guy that was so much a genius all right so you want the final
of the under 60 65 kilograms there the one at the top this is him he is uh two weight categories below
my weight category that i won the world championships same year i won it
so this is it's not i'm not sure if this is going to show his uh final of this is a highlight oh no
watch this this this this he did in the final in the final of the world for people just listening he
did uh an incredible sacrifice throw yeah and then he was on top for the uh for the new and renowned
for his groundwork and uh he he was on top of against a really strong romanian guy all right so
his transition was just phenomenal yeah let me let me go back and look at that what just happened so
he's just showing you so he does this uh coachy thing uh just to create space and it's his follow
through into into groundwork that is best of all and then uh the romanian really strong like i say he
gone all the way through to the final of the world championships winning most by ipon i think the
romanian and uh he's defending really really well here and you can see that how persistent he he knows
exactly what he wants he's just got to get his leg out now watch he'll tie the arm up and then he'll
pull the top leg towards him and then he'll push the bottom one off always working with both feet
always working always working uh readjust the balance still one leg trapped final of the world
championships good referee because he's refereeing uh something here that's happening you know that's
going to decide as to whether so he doesn't call it to stand it up at all watch him pull the top one
now and he'll push the bottom one there's a calmness on his face calm great to see calm pushes the bottom
leg leg out job done all finished this is him again watch this this is another uh technique that he does
and then just uh again sacrifice directly in directly into the niwaza
transition is everything isn't it in judo yeah you know it's well anything really but judo is
especially pays off
yeah i mean because we haven't got that long i mean we had more time here they've just brought more time
back so we've got more time to transition in and uh to get the situation that we want and
and to get the attacking situation that we want because you know i remember i was um teaching
uh in america to uh some jujitsu guys and they were saying i would never give you our back
and i said with judo rules certain situations it happens that you know when we try and do throws
where we're facing away from our opponent you know so like for example si and aggies if they fail
then the back is there you know and that's how we get the back and uh it's a different situation
you know then going on your back in the guard situation totally different well there are travis
stevens i don't know how familiar with his judo but he's a really interesting example because he
competed at the highest level in jujitsu as well and his idea he's a big sanagi guy and he basically
threw all that away he in the jujitsu in the jujitsu like he took the sport from scratch for what
it is so his he almost never did a standing sanagi sanagi's at all in jujitsu no because it would
leave his back all the time you know if if it failed yeah but he wouldn't have the same kind of
grip on the the judogi or or the karate the jujitsu gi yeah a little bit different and so you have to
kind of consider the sport the art of it and also the competitors the styles and the the culture of
the sport if you want to win if winning is the most important thing then yeah like all right well
let's you know but you learn the game don't you and and that's what he did he learned the game you
know and i think that is credit to him you know and that's why i was saying about wrestling you know
the wrestlers i mean we you've good to learn the judo and for what it is and the mechanics and
and how it works and then learn the wrestling i mean i do the commentary as well for the freestyle
and i will be at the olympics for the freestyle and the greco-roman so and i love the freestyle
absolutely love it but freestyle is freestyle judo is judo i like to see people doing judo yeah but
there's a uh there's a rhyme to the whole combat thing they're all i mean the the body mechanics it's
all like fascinating echoes of each other in interesting ways there's the details are
different but there's still uh two humans clashing yeah we've got some amazing uh crossovers with uh
people like the the um mongolians have come in the georgians i mean the georgians do massive pickups
and different uh techniques and you know if you ask the fighters whether you know grabbing the legs
you know a lot of them would say um some of the wrestling styles you know the the um georgians and
the and the mongolians might say yeah i'd like to be able to take the legs but you know a lot of them
just adapted you get um uh iliadis for example he just adapted so he thought i'll take my arm over the
top and i'll just rip them out the floor that way yeah you know what i mean they're still doing
the big lifts they're still doing the big ripping but they uh they just don't grab below the legs yeah
it's weird they figured it out and they figured it out like that yeah you would think it'd take a long
time no it was like a month yeah no exactly uh the highest level which is crazy uh so you mentioned
jujitsu a little bit what what to use an interesting difference between jujitsu and judo
that you've observed because you're uh one of the greatest ever on the on the ground in judo
and so you know jujitsu is primarily focused on similar type of stuff on the ground so what do
you use an interesting difference there they're a different approach different time scale to to
them and they have a different way in so um like where ours comes from a standing position directly in
we've got a time scale on it so we we have to like the catch what i always i always talk about the
catch because in judo terms if you don't get the catch immediately then the referee won't see the
the transition in and also the uh continuation from plan a b c d you know if something builds so we
have to build it and we uh we have to build it quickly and i think in jujitsu terms you have more
time to build yeah there's a there's a kind of patience like oh if this doesn't work out i can try
a different thing yeah just with judo there's like an urgency like there's an urgency everything and
there's a ref watching skeptically so you better show that you're making progress you've got to show
the progression and that's why you know i always had a plan a b c you see there with uh you know
that was 1981 there the great kashiwazaki was had um had a progression you know everything was he knew
exactly where he had to be it was feel you know that wasn't by accident it was it was trained and i
think that that transition there and taking uh control of somebody's mistake so somebody might
have made a mistake or not hit properly or your defense has caused them to make a mistake and then
you take advantage of it and that that is the difference so one of the side effects of that
i don't know what the chicken or the egg but uh judo people on the ground are much more aggressive
so probably because of the urgency but just like there's an uh intention behind the the progress
you're making i think jiu-jitsu uh is more relaxed there's more uh a culture of just finding places
to relax and think of different control and positions and take your time and as a result
it's much much less exhausting so you can go for much longer it feels like judo is exhausting it's that
10 second blast isn't it you know it's it's it's like doing sprints all the time you know and that
that is really hard and that's a special kind of condition you need and you need to be able to
catch it know when to go and when not to go and i think also i i was going to ask you you think it
make a difference i mean certain uh jiu-jitsu it you can't just throw yourself on your back you know
into the guard you you have to throw into the situation you know i mean so you have got i mean i
know roger gracie he he he decided that he was going to learn judo he he saw the importance of
being able to throw for the transition in and uh so he came to the budokai and he was learning off
ray stevens and you know they were they were doing really a lot yeah well he's a fascinating study
because he does the most basic stuff and he does it well like we did like what another level of well
it's like yamashira everyone knows what's what's coming with hydro gracie but he just does it
anyway i guess the best people in the world it's crazy he's like everybody uh in jiu-jitsu at white
belt learns the techniques he's using and he just does it amazing isn't it yeah but he has about a
thousand ways in yeah yeah i mean and the thousand ways there's in the details so it kind of might even
look the same to people but there's i mean he finds a way to choke people so he's on top of them
mounted yeah in a sort of judo pin position and you know everyone knows what's coming next against
the best people in the world and you should be able to defend it but nobody can it's crazy i think
there's the power element as well you know that you don't realize how you know when somebody's
directed in a particular way then you have that kind of element of of absolute power you can only
feel like like when roger's doing a technique i think that you would only feel it if he did it on
you you know then then you can feel it it's not something that happens you know like so tricks
is one thing but actually being able to do something really well from a power point of view you know it's
like like you say he's he's only does those few things but he does them really really really well
yeah i don't know what that is about actually judo pins is a very interesting case study as well
because people are able to feel so heavy one of the things judoka are able to do is pin
extremely well yeah okay and it makes you realize that it's not about the weight it's about
some kind of technique that makes people feel like they weigh a thousand pounds it's about it's
about weight distribution yeah and change of balance you know what a lot of people don't
realize that there's huge changes of balance in on the ground massive you know you know what it's
like i mean you you know you're a jujitsu man and and you know the detail of the techniques is what
really interests me you know i mean i'm always looking small ideas you know i'm always looking at the
jujitsu and um i just it fascinates me you know i would have done jujitsu for sure but i wouldn't
have forgotten uh the uh the judo way in to the techniques you know i mean i think that you've got
to differentiate the two but i would have i would have loved the jujitsu i would have absolutely loved
it you know but it wasn't as prominent then you know the i where the now as it came from
it came from a mistake me getting beaten in a particular contest and i went i'm not going to
be beaten again on the ground that's uh that's how it happened yeah well yeah the story of your life
is like a loss creates uh the phoenix rises well it just it was 1978 and it was it was a you know
it wasn't a mistake it was a particular movement and uh i was fighting weight up from what my normal
weight but i'm i stayed in the same position for one second too long got caught and choked
sangaku yeah triangle triangle triangle wow and i uh i said i literally just the same as i said to you
when i said i'm not going to drink anymore i came off and i said i'm never going to get caught on the
ground yeah it was on the ground and i never lost in in my whole competitive career again
oh wow but yeah i i i shouldn't mention that there's nothing like a pin from a from a judo
person and i don't actually know if people in jujitsu have made sense of that like loaded that in
but it's not part of it's not part of the game is it you know it the pin it's submission yeah but
you know control is part of the game right and nobody controls a human body the way judo people
do on the ground like they have understood the science of control and i think that's control is
extremely useful in um jujitsu as well it's just that people don't because there's so many other
domains of exploration but that's interesting i mean just and especially when you apply jujitsu to
um the fighting setting so mixed martial arts that control that side control that pin control is
really really really important so but then you add punching to the thing it becomes that puts a whole
different uh thing on it doesn't it i mean there's an alternate history where you would have been part
of the early ufcs if time was a little different you know uh maybe a few years later because your
your your your style of judo and jujitsu and the and the transitions and the aggression and the
all of that would have worked really well in the early ufcs i'm sure i was being set up at one stage
by one of the graces um and that was when um when he was winning all the matches yeah but he came
him with with a couple of the cousins to one of my seminars yeah yeah and uh he was one of the first
ones wasn't he that uh that that's how i love to see the kind of ufc because it was different martial
arts different skills and you know i mean he he'd get close and he'd just choke them out or arm lock
them or you know arm bar them and that was uh that was brilliant you know that was for me that was a
revelation that was how i saw it yeah and it's a fascinating science experiment which aspects of
different martial arts work well and not when they clash together and it did turn out that nay waza
worked well it was the key wasn't it yeah it was a it was a big missing link in our conception of
fighting it's the neutralizer of size yeah and a lot of other components and it just blew people's
mind like okay it's not just about size it's not just about big big guys swinging uh hands it's it's a
lot of other components and the ground work is really really important and of course there's a
few judoka that succeeded in the ufc since then which is always interesting how they adapt to without
you know when you take off the gi how can you still throw people how can you still do control how can
you still take advantage of the transition on the ground ronda rousey is a good example of somebody
that took advantage of that yeah i think one of the biggest things for the judoka is we've never
you know there's no strikes and uh i think that's the biggest um shock if you wish you know that when
you get yeah punched in the face you get punched in the face and and and you're not used to that you
know that's that's not what we're used to some people are able to get punched in the face better than
others yeah for sure uh then again there's ronda rousey who doesn't need to get punched in the
face she just gets in close throws a person on bar right there yeah and kayla you know kayla
kayla harrison that's another incredible person she could have probably been just winning olympic
gold medal after olympic gold medal but chose to whatever you know she decides i mean ronda as well
you know whatever they decided to do they're they're great athletes they hate losing i don't know
anybody that hates losing more than those two yeah they don't like it and kayla harrison like i don't
know anybody that works as hard as her that's a crazy crazy crazy work ethic well let me ask you
about training again jimmy pedro said he learned a lot from you he learned how to do a tight ocean
but he also learned from you training methodology so what's he talking about he told me about this
what what what what's your approach to training throughout your career and as it developed
i always wanted to train harder than anybody else i still train now every day if i don't train
do something i do do an hour of of my physical work and i still go on the mat a little bit you know
i'm 65 now and so i'm not doing really heavy stuff on the mat but i still like to train and when i was
21 20 up to 30 i was one of the best trainers but you know jimmy pedro was one of the best trainers as
well he was one of the he's one of your dream athletes you know that when jimmy pedro steps through
your door and he was just a kid you know he was like he was just young when he stepped through
my door and i had a lot of full-time trainers so i had up to 20 really good athletes that were
training hard and i only wanted hard trainers give me 10 that train hard rather than your one
prima donna that you know you're skillful you're the one that that you know could do it i just i
wanted 10 you know or 20 really hard trainers because you can do so much with them you can make
champions you can make them world champions you know if you've got somebody that was a special
talent and they wanted to work hard then you had a special athlete well when you say hard trainers
what do you mean are these people that just like every single day are able to just grind it out do
randori do the training do the the boring things just keep calling yeah when the going gets tough you
know and i i think that that was him he had a special mentality and you know and the thing is you see
when you got him in your dojo all right even when you're tired when somebody's tired and when you
know what an example to the others so he'd pull the other ones in as well you know so i so i i had
somebody that when everybody was tired and everybody was sick of it and everybody just wanted to you know
and he'd still be there you know so they had to do it so that was for me a win-win you know so he i had
all the americans actually i had bobby berland and i had michael swain and i had ed liddy and i had
i had them all coming to visit me at different times uh jimmy was there you know they they wanted
to be the best in the end we had such a great club atmosphere they wanted to come for for the hard work
and they knew that if they came they were going to be dragged out and we were going to do physical
training and it was physical training like they hadn't done before uh but it wasn't just a physical
training it was the judo and and the uh and the skill side of it as well and so i always had a great
empathy with the u.s team olympic team so a lot of your olympic medalists have been through with me
you know and so i'm i'm proud of that because we had you know some great times and they're still great
mates now and and so in new york uh a couple of weeks time uh i'm gonna have everybody who's gonna
be there they're all coming in all old friends all old friends and new friends so uh what what's what's
the tough week look like at your peak physical training randori uh is there days off uh are you
training like twice a day twice a day um so we do the preparation training we do the running we do the
weight training we do the skills in the morning as well the skills is for me one of the biggest
advantages that any full-time trainers can have because um what happens is is that with most clubs
you're trying to fit everything into that hour and a half or two hours you know you fit your skills you
fit your your physical training and your your sparring and your you know everything's in there all
grouped in so the biggest advantages of having a full-time group is that you can split your skills
and your skills lay your foundation so the biggest advantage is being able to work specifically on
things without having to worry about getting to do your free you know your randori or your your
sparring or then you've got to go out for you just do the skills well when you talk about skills like
what is say your specialty is a taiatoshi what are we talking about uh uchikomi doing a bunch of
fists working with bands are you doing throws are you actually just having conversations about
like specific like tiny details of throws like what what does skills mean all those things about doing
your repetition practice making sure the repetition's correct you know there's good repetition so when we
say good repetition does it uchikomi when you're just fitting the throw versus doing the throw
where do you land on the value and getting it moving you know so one of the biggest most important
things is getting it moving uh if we do something static again it's that static target you need to
get it moving so you need to do a repetition and also you need to do a correct repetition because if
you're doing a hundred the repetitions that are not correct and repetitions under pressure too much
pressure without somebody overseeing those skills to make sure that the that you correct the skills
because if you're doing a skill if you're doing it uh 99 times incorrectly all right then uh repetition
doesn't make perfect repetition makes permanent so you're going to make it as per as perfect as you
possibly can so actually that skills group there is the most important thing and what i used to do is
oversee it so i'd oversee it to make sure that it was done properly so you're watching the the footwork
you're watching the gripping and just constantly adjusting people i'll give you an example jimmy
pedro jimmy was one of the hardest when he was 19 years of age right so i was always asking me to
practice always so he's always on me all the time so i do groundwork with him and could i put him on his
back no i was all on him and he'll tell you you know but he was just wouldn't go he was just he
was going to be great without a doubt all right so i wanted everybody on with him everybody so
everybody went on with him you know and and so they only improved their game and it improved him
and then with you know small technical things that have stayed with him that we were doing with the
judy katami that was passed on to kayla and then gone on you know to ronda and it's all small
things that i can see sometimes that you know it's passed on what about the taiatoshi he said he
learned a lot from you from that and he does it differently and so i should mention that's one of
the trickier uh throw i mean i don't i still don't understand it is i don't understand so for people
don't know it it um boy how would you even explain it it doesn't make any sense it's uh
when you just look solo the the movement you make is very it's quite simple but uh how you get
person to be off balance how you yeah uh actually get them to be thrown and when you do throw it
successfully it looks like a whipping motion that's effortless it makes no sense it makes no sense
other than it's every technique starts with the hands so it's what we call kazushi and you know you're
pulling somebody off balance getting them moving pulling them off balance uh taiatoshi means body
drop so it's basically uh two legs across your partner's body i've got my back to you all right
and i've already pulled you off balance with my hands and then i'm going to just flex my legs up
just as you're coming onto my back and uh and then you're going to go over you know if i coordinated
all right if it uh if it doesn't get coordinated right then you're going to come right on my back
and try to rip my arm off you know so um yeah what was uh if you can put convert into words
uh some secret ingredients that allowed you to pull it off at the highest levels
the taiatoshi the hands start every technique uh so getting the repetition right first of all
so you need uh to get the repetition right you need a good partner so uh actually training your partner
to react in the right way is just as important as learning the throw so actually what happens is
you know i we could get a lesson of beginners we teach the throw and then go right off you go
and 90 of them will get it wrong because their partner's not reacting in the right way so half of
it is to get the person to react as they should so if i was doing it with you you and i um first thing
i'd teach you to do is to react the way i want you to react and then i'd react the way that you want
me to react all right so then we'd have success with it rather than you leaning back in the wrong
way or resisting or frightened you going over so you know so actually that's why nine times out of ten
people get the technique wrong it's actually fascinating to me because in the united states
where i came up judo i mean the level of judo is not comparable to the level of judo
in the rest of the world um of course uh the pedro center is an exception to that
certain athletes yeah it's a certain athletes like i mean when i trained recently with with jimmy
pedro it's like even like the 16 year old kids are just all deadly so it was terrifying uh but you know
i remember the russian national team came through philadelphia and one of the things that really
impressed me is just how much easier judo was training judo with them they moved correctly as
like as the people getting thrown every aspect of their body movement was correct in terms of it felt
right to be throwing them to be training with them everything about the gripping about the position of
their hips about the shoulder everything it was it was fun it was easy and like and i always felt
like i was learning so i think all of that is loaded in i guess into proper training so you're
developing through the throws you're developing the right technique yeah you have to develop um
between you know i always had training partners that i trained with up to each olympic games and
we um we worked together for the we did the skills together and then we um you know we
we worked together in order in order to make techniques work and we got it moving as quickly
as we could and one of the worst things that i see is and i see a lot of youtube stuff with um coaches
here we go ah don't even start me on that don't even start me on that but um you know
you're laughing because you know what i'm talking about right okay you know i'm actually laughing
because i'm enjoying you talking trash but uh but you're talking about technique um yeah just
uh well you know you know the coaches and their clipboard guys you know with the clipboards and
the stopwatches and you know they got these kids running up and down the mat and and then doing
uchikomi of of something that's technically incorrect um you know 10 times and then running up and doing
another 10 at the other side you know and actually mixing everything together and it's just a mess
yeah techniques just technical mess that said some of it is conditioning type stuff that you were doing
so what what is like the hardest type of physical conditioning you're doing probably ran too much you
know when i was a when i was a kid if i could go back now i wouldn't run as much and i ran hard and i
ran strong and i remember doing london marathon one time and uh i said i'm never going to do it again
i did never and then but i ran you know and i i was trying to the problem was when i did the
london marathon is i was trying to beat three hours it's that desire it's totally insane you know it was
insane and i went out through half marathon in what i thought was a good time anyway i got to 16 17 miles
and totally blew and so you went out too fast yeah i went out too fast and then you just i died
absolutely just i died like i i i got in i i crossed the line i remember seeing this bridge
over there right and the bridge it was the finishing line over the bridge and i had to get
there it was the longest bridge i've ever ever walked over and like walk run like so i got over the bridge
and i took one step over the the line like that and there was a guy over there and he was trying to
rush everybody through you know and he was going come on come on come on there's people behind you
get your hands off me yeah your hands off me now like that because we're gonna fall out you know and
and uh and uh i couldn't move i i couldn't move i was white and uh it's amazing that you made it to
the finish line though i did i got i got over there and um you know yeah donald duck passing
me was was a was a tell oh there's a person what addresses donald duck donald duck yeah
yeah but the thing was i still crossed over 338 i crossed over 338 but i lost 38 minutes in the last
four miles to that bridge longest bridge ever you see you regret the right so anyway i i would do the
running a little bit differently but we ran we ran hard we did the weight training we did good
weight training it was all conditioned so i mean it was never the same training all the time so it was
always um we uh have certain phases building up it was scientifically done it wasn't just out there
run weight training judo same judo all the time it was always pretty scientific good variety it was a
good variety and it had build up and it had a speed phase and it had a power phase and it had a you
know a like a base condition what about the randori was there a a method to the madness there how much
randori did you do a lot so the most important thing for me um i mean i see now that there's a lot of
people out there that are not getting enough randori they're not randori enough and there's a lot of
sports science people and they're running and they're weight training and they're they're doing
it all to death and there's not enough judo and the only ones you know like you have a look at some
of the um the eastern block countries that are getting together they're having these mass camps
and the japanese they have you know just massive people that they can do there they're doing
probably 50 60 randerers a week wait what 50 or 60 a week wow the average person is getting together
i mean when i was doing randerers uh when i went to japan it was just purely for
60 randerers a week how much is each one how long is it so they were five minutes then they're four
minutes now but that's a lot especially given the level of the competition there well you can do it in
japan because it's fairly light they throw you they throw you you throw them there's like a level
of like you're moving at like a close 100 but the actual power and the force is not quite different
in korea korea was harder it was more physical so you couldn't do 50 randerers in korea you'd die
yeah so you'd do 30 wow but you need you need the randerer and uh so i chased the randerers
so i chased them into training camps i traced them all over my country so i i was getting 40 to 50 a
week in my club and then i would go to training camps and add more and i honestly don't think that
they do enough now a lot of countries somebody who doesn't know randori is live training so yeah
sparring was there a few people you remember that were just like really tough to go against you
mentioned gold tooth is there others like it it's pretty uh horrific yeah
he was oh you got him in the end i got him in the end and um yeah is there like i i suppose i
should say not just tough but just good training partners that you're great training partners i
remember initiative and initiative was i mentioned him earlier said he was one of the best i mean he was
just such a great technician so i i would go there to his dojo and he'd ask me to practice
and he'd always he'd finish the practice and you you know that he would always say another one we'll do
another one right so you'd go yeah because you had to make out that you weren't that bothered that you
had to do another one so you do another one back to back and then he goes sometimes let's do another
one so he'd end up doing 15 minutes with the same guy who could possibly throw you at any time you
know and and that was hard you know so but i remember those particular um uh guys and there
were plenty of those what do you do with the exhaustion that you're feeling in those like
how how deep did you go in terms of like deep and i i think that that was the great thing about having
certain like european training camps were more physical so i remember you know that we would have
european training camps where you'd fight germans and then the dutch and then the french and then
you know the russian or the you'd have all sorts different styles and people there to fight and uh
that that was something then you you'd have to dig in at a different place come out of there well where
do you go mentally when you you know how many times have you gone there or like you're really in deep
waters exhaustion wise in in competition actually competition it's happened you know so sometimes
you go past where your forearms are absolutely blown i remember the final of um check uh tournament
that we had and uh fought a frenchman uh in the final and my forearms were so blown i couldn't shake
his hand you know and then i remember they were they were solid absolutely solid and they had lactic
acid in them and uh and i remember i just stood on the rostrum this uh and and they were giving me
things and i couldn't grip them properly so i was saying put it under my armpit or you know chin like
i was trying to hold this i couldn't hold anything you know and so there there are times when i really had
to go really deep i remember fighting two east germans uh the same day one of the competitions
and uh the number one and the number two east germans and um that was another day where i had
to really dig deep that's the the fascinating thing about some of these tournaments is if you get
if you go full distance and several matches in a row the way you're seeing in the finals are two
people that have like fought a lot that day yeah and we have golden score now you know so we we see
a lot of guys you know that going into golden score and they've done one contest of four minutes and
then they go another four minutes and then you know we've had some go into a third four minutes
this is all back to back it might be in the first round it might be in the final you know and we've got
some now that are coming out and you can see the uh stats and the the ones that win in golden score
so we got uh japanese hashimoto he's the japanese representative now uh instead of ono because
ono's finished so hashimoto's coming out he was in a tournament last week and he went to look up
yeah just have a look at him so hashimoto's in white here all right and uh great example there well i'm
glad we got onto that you know so i mean he has got great technique hashimoto effortless there's the
all right so you can see exactly what we're talking about that great um timing
and again uh you know sometimes he backs them up to the edge and then uh he'll wait for them to come
back in towards they don't want to step out to get a penalty i guess that's a cross grip tides i should
see that wrong yeah cross grip different grips oh great examples there just just what we were talking
making it look so easy wow so he's going to be their representative uh at 73 kilograms look at him
back him up again and again just uh catching him as as he pushes back to push push push and then
yeah action reaction at his best there yeah and uh slight change of uh direction he sometimes goes
down onto his knee there which is siatoshi it turns from tayatoshi which is springing up
to see a toshi that's going down oh the the title of the video is uh his taiatoshi is a work of art
yeah this is uh him at his best showing him uh doing what he does best but he had to go three
times into golden score last week and dig deep and lost one of them i think but you're still going at
it you're talking about all those training sessions i uh nikki your wonderful wife told me that you were
looking you were going all over like from target to target looking for workout clothes because your
luggage got lost because you had to get a workout in yeah just i you know what i just i i realize
that if i'm a miserable git right then she'll get me to get me into the gym you know so and the thing
is is that i'm better if i get in there for an hour and i just do something at least 30 35 to 40
minutes cardio and then i do some weights and uh more high repetitions it's not so much heavy weights
now but more functional i mean you travel all over the world for for for the commentary of these
competitions so you're is it is it sometimes a challenge to figure out how well you know we're
during covid uh then they closed all the gyms but we were still going out we were some one of the
first ones out the the judo were some of the first out the competitions were behind closed doors so we
were in the hotel the gym was closed so we couldn't use the gyms uh so we had to look for other ways that
we could work out so uh most of the uh hotels that we were in were high rise hotels so we were in the
steps we were doing the steps all right the way up you know so i started it and uh and so i started
off with me going up and then one or two of the others and the referees started to go up with me and
so in the end we'd have this trail of people going up the steps and down and every place we went to
we had the steps so um yeah that was an interesting situation so we were sick of steps in the end
what advice would you give to um beginners people starting out in judo how to um how to develop their
game how to find the beauty in in the sport and the art of judo if you put 10 people in a room and
said right get on with it yeah you'd have mayhem right and i think that wherever whatever sport
you're doing you need good instruction good teaching and a good club atmosphere you know
somewhere that's not uh so intense that uh winning is the the only thing and i think that if you look
at 90 of the people that practice martial arts are doing it for pleasure so they want to get pleasure
so you you need a club that's got a bit of a mixture you know they've got a a direction to go
into competition if they want and uh and then the rest it's for fun and to enjoy it but with really
good instruction because with really good instruction and a good foundation and a good base
you get more enjoyment because you're you know you you you have more success and let's be honest you
know the more success we have with something the more we like it yeah and great technique is a way to
really discover the beauty of the art and so great teaching is really important there great teaching
is so important what about what what does it take to get from the early days when you started judo
to to world-class level i think that with most i mean you do hear don't you you know if somebody's
been doing judo for eight years and then they're in and i think it happened um one of the french
chameo she went to the olympic games in 2012 and she'd been doing judo for eight years but then she
started to lose you know so she had a relative success early on and the olympics was one of them
she got a silver medal but then she went off the boil and then she came back and now she's been there for
she's still competing and she's been there for well over 13 years at the very top so i think that
you know any foundation it's like anything if if you lay a really solid foundation that
generally lasts longer yeah well that that foundation again is that technique or is there
um what does it take to build that foundation i think technique you get away with murder you know
you know you you with technique you can get away with you know having bad condition you know but
i mean you get found out in the end but um you can you know you can go out and you can win certain
things by doing really nice technique but i think if you've got the mixture if you've got the whole
package then you can you know go the whole way so for people who somehow don't know you've commentated
some of the greatest judo matches ever you've done grand prix you've done all these events olympics
squad championship everything so what what uh just looking at the history of judo what like stands
out to you what events stand out to you what are some good memories that popped your head i think
you know some of the paris tournaments are amazing because the crowd they're there you know they're on
the mat they're they're all judoka they all they're well educated to the sport every time somebody twitches
you know they're they're very biased towards their own which is kind of you expect but you know
sometimes i haven't been able to hear myself speak and that's very unusual you know you've got
headphones on and you you're blocked out you know like sometimes telly renee has been walking out
there and the crowd are going crazy and the and they're on their feet you know when somebody twitches
and you know and and then you get this they're the crowd silences we had one of those last week
you know everybody's cheering their man and then bang their man goes over yeah and there's silence
silence nothing like that and of course we were we were commentating we were going that was a bit of
a crowd silencer you know but um yeah that happens yeah that is a surprising thing that uh at least it
was to me that paris and france is really big on judo massive you know and and there's always surprises
you know the the it's um like paris is great in japan for the olympic games the biggest surprise was
ono getting beaten in the team event now ono's the greatest judo man pound for pound probably one of
the best and he won the olympic title and then they went into the team event against france and ono lost
to a no he's not run of the mill german but the german you know it wasn't certainly olympic title
isk and uh be owner yeah well the team the team stuff is fascinating yeah it's fascinating it changes
the dynamics of the whole thing yeah and it's i mean it's funny you say paris it it really makes it
really big deal that this olympics is being held in paris and they'll be the team to beat
french team because they have the best balance of the weight categories they have the best balance
with their people that are world and olympic champions uh and qualified men and women so
three three men three women they have the best balance out of anybody and an educated audience
educated audience home grounds it's gonna be awesome it's gonna be super fun it will be super fun
you're nervous yeah all right you get nervous i get nervous i get nervous nervous right now but you
know given especially because it's the olympics and you don't want to um you want to celebrate
people properly right and it's like it's everything for them yeah and a lot of people especially like
the finals matches yeah you know it'll be watched you know millions of times the highest of stakes
all of this played over and over yeah and i find that you know with mine i'm now a little bit more
careful you know with like so i'll celebrate a massive throw and then be have an empathy to the
one that's been thrown you know because it's not the best feeling in the world especially in olympic
finals yeah can you imagine that yeah must be terrible must be terrible yeah just reflecting
so i know i have a bit of empathy there and i just i try and say the right things because they
always do come up to me and say you commentated my fights yeah you're the voice of the biggest
triumphs and the biggest tragedies for these athletes for the world that watches and admires
these athletes no pressure you're the voice don't screw it up yeah don't screw it up your voice is
in my head when i watch these uh you know it's it's it's fascinating it's fascinating but you're you're
a master of it it's um it's a huge honor uh that you would talk with me um thank you for everything
you've done for the sport of judo for the olympics for just sports in general just celebrating greatness
in all of its forms thank you for talking today keep going i can't wait to listen to you in paris
thank you for having me and uh it's just been an honor to to be here with you thanks for listening
to this conversation with neil adams to support this podcast please check out our sponsors in the
description and now let me leave you with some words from miyamoto musashi there's nothing outside
of yourself that can ever enable you to get better stronger richer quicker or smarter everything
is within everything exists seek nothing outside of yourself thank you for listening and hope to see you
next time